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Accidents and IncidentsThis forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings forum.
Please note: The last reply in this thread was more than 6 month(s) ago.
There's no question that this would happen some day, but there is also no question that someone will get killed driving their car, etc.
The open question in my mind is was sufficient information provided (considering the possible language dificulties) to provide for reasonable informed consent? If so ... well, unfortunately bad things do happen to good people.
I've been on a JASA trip, to Tiger Beach, and I signed a stack of papers half of which strictly to make me aware of the danger of diving with ANY species of shark. I had signed and faxed all this before the trip, and they made me sign them all again! There was a shark briefing at the beginning of the trip, to explain about each potential species encounter and their potential dangers and behaviours and how to stay as safe as possible, there were also daily briefings repeating the safety measures, and when divers could not or would not follow those measures there was a repeat as well as removing unsafe divers from the water. I can not imagine how anyone on one of these shark trips could claim to be uninformed of the dangers.
I've been reading along over the past couple of days and I have debated speaking up with my thoughts, but I've decided to due to a few different reasons. First, I've personally known Jim Abernethy for over 20 years, and even though through the years there have been good times and bad times, and friendships tend to be strained from time to time, I know his heart and I know that he would never and I repeat NEVER, never would have let this happen if he could have predicted it or stopped. I worked on Shearwater as a crew member and I've even worked these trips, I never felt unsafe or saw anything that would make me think the passengers were in danger. It has been over 3 years though since I was a part of his operation, and things may have changed. I can't remember divers having thier cameras ranked away from them while I was there.
I see alot of people making remarks about "habit" changes etc. Why don't we just leave that to the real experts, the ones with the PhD's, the marine biologist, those that can back thier remarks with more than I thinks and I told you so's. Surely, those that have never been on a dive like this or even one that has swam around taking photography qualify to make sworn statements that it does or doesn't affect the sharks.
Finally, I would like to say that I love seeing the sharks, and I've had two Hammerhead encounters this year already, right here in WPB. Both times I've had open water students with me...what a thrill and of course, we had no bait, we were just drifting along. I think that maybe we should all just step back and remember...something horrible happened, someone has lost a family member, a friend, others have been witness to this accident and probably have visions when they close thier eyes. How about we all say a prayer for all those involved and send our best wishes.
I've been reading along too, and this is a very sad twist of fate. I'm not a marine biologist, but I am in the water a pretty good bit. I've never been on any kind of a shark feed or shark trip, but I have seen a fair number of sharks, and I have to say that I was caught off guard by how clever they can be. I used to think of them as sort of mindless eating machines governed mostly by instinct, but my experiences with them have changed that impression dramatically. I am quite impressed by what I feel is the shark's ability to learn, and how easily they are conditioned with food.
The safety procedures you keep questioning are more thorough than some I've personally received over the years at numerous dive operations, not just shark dives.
What are they? I'm honestly curious what safety precaution there is for diving with chummed tiger sharks other than a shark cage or not getting in the water at all.
Also, if these precautions are so thorough, do you think we should propose the operations doing great white dives off of Isla Guadalupe should adopt them and abandon their cages for this safe and less restrictive approach?
I've been reading along over the past couple of days and I have debated speaking up with my thoughts, but I've decided to due to a few different reasons. First, I've personally known Jim Abernethy for over 20 years, and even though through the years there have been good times and bad times, and friendships tend to be strained from time to time, I know his heart and I know that he would never and I repeat NEVER, never would have let this happen if he could have predicted it or stopped. I worked on Shearwater as a crew member and I've even worked these trips, I never felt unsafe or saw anything that would make me think the passengers were in danger. It has been over 3 years though since I was a part of his operation, and things may have changed. I can't remember divers having thier cameras ranked away from them while I was there.
I see alot of people making remarks about "habit" changes etc. Why don't we just leave that to the real experts, the ones with the PhD's, the marine biologist, those that can back thier remarks with more than I thinks and I told you so's. Surely, those that have never been on a dive like this or even one that has swam around taking photography qualify to make sworn statements that it does or doesn't affect the sharks.
Finally, I would like to say that I love seeing the sharks, and I've had two Hammerhead encounters this year already, right here in WPB. Both times I've had open water students with me...what a thrill and of course, we had no bait, we were just drifting along. I think that maybe we should all just step back and remember...something horrible happened, someone has lost a family member, a friend, others have been witness to this accident and probably have visions when they close thier eyes. How about we all say a prayer for all those involved and send our best wishes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arfy
I was on a Shear Water trip last year with Jim Abernethy, which included dives at Tiger Beach and also End of the Map, where the accident appears may have taken place.
It annoys me somewhat when you get a tragedy like this that all these 'armchair experts' come out opining as if they know what they are talking about, when they have no experience whatsoever of diving in close proximity with large sharks such as these.
I will personally vouch that the sharks instilled no fear in me, nor the other guests - but that is not to say that your guard is ever let down. You are forewarned that they are potentially dangerous and are given VERY lengthy and detailed safety briefings, with perhaps the most critical procedure being to ALWAYS look around you, especially for the tiger sharks (since they have a habit of sneaking up on you if you're not looking). What the sharks do instill is a great sense of respect and admiration, although you know very well what they are capable of and are ever conscious of that.
Jim has been known to evict guests from the boat if they flaunt any safety rules, indeed one person on my trip was given a discreet but severe warning and needed no further ones thereafter.
The experience taught me that these sharks indeed are very cautious, including the Tigers, Bulls and great hammers. The Bulls at End of the Map were inquisitive but cautious, and indeed many guests were surprised at how unagressive they were given their supposed reputation. That said, we were told that they could show aggressive behaviour coming up from the seabed when tiger / great hammerhead shark activity was taking place at the surface, although we never saw this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhaas
To answer fisherdvm, as politely as I can, YES, arfy's opinion DOES have more validity because he has actually watched a shark close up! And to top it off a species that many books, armchair divers, etc. says is "vicious and threatening".
I"m not trying to be mean to anyone, but don't you think it's funny that all the people who got to watch sharks swimming slowly around some scent and observed them, well, the result is they appreciate them even more? Not fear them as much? Respect them? Hell yeah! I always watch end with the pointy things in their mouth
"Normal" behavior for sharks? We're still learning! My one diving buddy of 40 years commented that he never SAW a shark until he was diving 7 years! Sharks by the way will come over occasionally and check you out. If you are happy with seeing the south end of a shark heading north, that's fine, more power to you......But many divers aren't judging by the popularity of operators all over the world offering shark dives!
I also read in Sandy's post (Hi Sandy that scientists and such being able to observe these animals close up for longer periods of time continue to learn many real truths about this over 250 million year old design.....99% of what people may know has only come about since shark dives! Watching them, filming them, and then broadcasting or publishing the details.
The safety stressed at JASA and other shark dives really is priority #1 has has been mentioned over and over and over by those who actually have chosen to participate in this type of activity. If it was as dangerous as the critics contend, divers would be getting bit week after week.....
For real danger, go diving with someone who is old (that might be me) out of shape, can't find the anchor or watch their gauges and then expects YOU to save them.......That's way more common........
People will still have their opinions and that's fine.......Just don't expect everyone to agree en mass if you haven't walked the walk.
dhaas
Totally agree with these posts. You can read Bob's and my previous posts on pg. 6. Everyone who hasn't done this type of trip can be an "armchair shark trip diver" all they want, but we have BEEN there and DONE that, and would definitely do this trip AGAIN and in fact, hope to. Jim Abernethy and crew stressed safety, safety, safety on these dives. And as I said before, we learned total respect for the sharks. With all the safety briefings, yes we were aware of the dangers, but we never felt like we were in danger, as long as we followed the rules, stayed alert with our surroundings, etc. One time a tiger became curious w/ me, and I used my shark stick as taught, and she eventually swam away.
Again, condolences to the man's family, Maggi
also, thoughts and prayers to Jim and his crew, as well.
I think all folks on scubaboard are entitled to their opinion. I've never been on a dive like that, because I refused to.
Then don't go on a dive like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherdvm
I have been on dives close to these sites, and I've observed behavior in sharks which are not natural (sharks normally do not swim toward human).
Sure they do, one of their strongest natural instincts are curiosity. All predators are naturally curious. If you get some time in the water with larger migratory sharks you may experience this for yourself. The behavior(s) you have cited are specific to bottom dwelling sharks, like Nurse sharks and Blacktip reef sharks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherdvm
There are plenty of opportunities to see sharks in nature. One out of every 2 dives I've had in Florida and Cozumel we were given the opportunity to see sharks. Although just small nurse sharks, and small reef sharks, they are sharks nevertheless, and they behaved normally - swimming away from divers.
I'm glad you got to see a couple of sharks, I'm sure it was a breathtaking experience. Nurse sharks and reef sharks are bottom dwelling sharks. "This bottom dwelling shark is nocturnal and is often seen resting on the bottom during the day, sometimes in small groups. It is not aggressive and will generally swim away if disturbed, although it may bite if harassed." Simply put, these sharks swim away because you are disturbing their rest.
Other larger migratory shark species (Oceanic Whitetips, Tiger Sharks, Hammerheads. Makos) do not swim away from humans, these sharks tend to be very inquisitive, weather they have been fed or not.
While I am not going to minimize the experience you have had with nurse and reef sharks because that is great, an experience with a Hammerhead, Mako, or Tiger is a truly amazing, and different all together than the sharks you have seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherdvm
I don't have a PhD in marine biology, but I think most of the comments against shark and fish feeding here are right in line with most animal behaviorist and most if not all competent marine biologists.
Many competent marine biologists feed sharks to study their behavior, such as the Bimini Biological Field Station Shark Lab.
Deco, this is getting ridiculous. There must be a thousand or more fisherman chumming the water for every photographer or videographer that wants to chum to get shark footage. So, apparently, it is fine to chum the water as long as it can produce food for your table?
And of course, the massive numbers of dead bycatch left for sharks after virtually every commercial netter or longliner is done for a given day--this is also insignificant to you--right?
You can ignore the blatant chumming that goes on every day at fishing piers right adjacent to swimming beaches all along the florida coast--oh of course, this kind of chumming could not possibly alter shark behavior, because fisherman don't cause people to get attacked by sharks, only dive operators do.....
Divers are NOT the problem.....you have tons of sewage dumping on your lawn, yet you want to scream at the neighbor's dog...
Last edited by Ann Marie; February 29th, 2008 at 01:26 PM.
Reason: removed quote that has been deleted
These 2 members have said "Thank you." to DanLVolker for this useful post:
although I am just in law school, this is an open and obvious danger. I don't think the operator could get in trouble for this, especially since it wasn't illegal to do it where he was doing it.
although I am just in law school, this is an open and obvious danger. I don't think the operator could get in trouble for this, especially since it wasn't illegal to do it where he was doing it.
Well, even though all the people on the the boat signed all of the official documents, I would think the diver's family could file a negligence lawsuit against Shear Water. I hope not. Regardless of my personal attitude towards shark feeding, I think people should be allowed to do things that are considered "dangerous" to the mainstream population whether it be shark diving, motorcycle racing, skydiving, whatever.
Since it's the Bahamas and not the U.S., I doubt any laws will be passed preventing shark feeds. I'm sure it brings in quite a bit of money (Neal Watson's business included). I just hope this doesn't eventually end up being like Stingray City where you have gobs of people off cruise ships lining up to ride Tiger sharks or something stupid like that.
although I am just in law school, this is an open and obvious danger. I don't think the operator could get in trouble for this, especially since it wasn't illegal to do it where he was doing it.
I agree...
I spend my life signing waivers... From Disneyland to Andretti's Speedway to sky-diving, to skiing, to rock climbing, to eating Fugu... I imagine if they were useless, legally, they'd dispense with them...
Unless they can prove Abernathy was somehow grossly negligent (and it sounds like he runs a tight operation), then it's just an unfortunate accident in a semi-extreme sport... (one in which there are very few similar accidents compared to *other* semi-extreme sports)
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