Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[roturner]

Wow, that's a helpful post.....

Well.... if you ask me, it is. It refutes the idea that a heart problem will somehow automatically lead to panic as suggested in the post I responded to.

That is not the case.

Panic is not a result of heart problems.

Is there something about this that needs more clarification?

R..

[merxlin]

Well.... if you ask me, it is. It refutes the idea that a heart problem will somehow automatically lead to panic as suggested in the post I responded to.

That is not the case.

Panic is not a result of heart problems.

Is there something about this that needs more clarification?

R..

Automatically lead to panic, maybe not. But if at 60ft you start getting chest pains (whether from a heart problem or perceived heart problem), and have an anxiety episode over it, it is certainly possible to panic and bolt for the surface. So while it doesn't automatically lead to panic, it certainly isn't precluded from happening.

And in the post you responded to, the sequence was panic then cardiac arrest:

Originally Posted by SCUBA482
Does anybody have an idea what dive op she was getting her certification through? Not that it's extremely important, but wondering if they are on SB and have any light they could shed on this. Also, I heard cardiac arrest was part of the problem, now maybe equipment failure? I wonder if an equipment problem led to a panic situation then cardiac arrest.

I believe we know that stress and panic can lead to heart issues.

[DandyDon]

A small sidetrack- there was some discussion a week or so ago if there A&I reports do any good since we have so few facts. I think this is a perfect example of how they help, as divers are questioning their knowledge and practice of ascent rates, and what depths can be dangerous for rapid ascents.

Of course they do. Those who have a problem with such should just stay out of this. This forum is not to lay blame as explained in the rules; it is for discussion and learning, which can certainly be accomplished even discussing what-ifs.

[roturner]

while it doesn't automatically lead to panic, it certainly isn't precluded from happening.

Maybe you're right about that. It's not impossible for a heart problem to present as panic..... But I'll point out *and stress* that assumption is the mother of all Fuuuk-ups. Frankly, all heart problems I've seen in my limited experiece did not present as panic. The simple fact is that in REALITY heart problems don't lead to people "freaking out" (ie panicking) they lead to people looking exceeding subdued and as if they have been hit by a car.... People who have the "energy" to panic don't have heart problems.

And in the post you responded to, the sequence was panic then cardiac arrest:

Yes. I believe that this is the order in which is was presented on a thread on an internet forum. Do I blelieve that this is also the order in which it actually happened....?

I believe we know that stress and panic can lead to heart issues.

Yes, but based on what you said I don't believe you've ever seen anyone have a heart attack.

R..

[Teamcasa]

Panic, not matter its origin, will make a normally rational person react irrationally. The ensuing reaction of a panicked diver are predictable, they bolt to the surface. This seems to be the case here.

The question is why did she panic and how could it have been prevented or dealt with at depth.

[boulderjohn]

I know someone quite well whose mother-in-law died at almost exactly the same age in almost the exact same kind of incident. The similarities might be instructive.

She was doing her deep dive in an AOW class, discarded her regulator, and bolted to the surface. The instructor tried to stop her but could not.

The autopsy revealed that she had not only had a heart attack, she had had one recently before that--perhaps the day before. It also showed she had had an embollism, no doubt caused by the no-regulator bolt to the surface.

Here is the theory of the sequence:

1. Heart attack
2. Poor circulation caused by heart attack leads to a sense that the regulator is not providing air.
3. Panic and rejection of "non-working" regulator
4. Bolt to the surface while holding breath
5. Embollism

BTW, my own mother suffered congestive heart failure, although it was not fatal. The primary symptom was the sense that she was not getting any air when she breathed. She put he head out the window and gasped for air. Having something like that happen under water would certainly cause panic.

[Bubbletrubble]

The question is why did she panic and how could it have been prevented or dealt with at depth.

Along these lines...
Is it still accepted practice for PADI instructors teaching advanced OW (AOW) students to take them on the deep dive (approx. 100 fsw) for Dive #1 of the class? I'm not aware of the rules of other instructional agencies. I'm not a dive professional, but I have many friends who are. It seems to me that such a situation is dangerous. I have heard several stories of divers who enter an AOW class with no prior diving experience in cold water. (These are the same people who ask: "Do I have to wear a hood?") During Dive #1, they aren't comfortable with the thicker exposure protection required of SoCal diving. They also don't do well managing the additional lead that must be worn with a thicker wetsuit. All this, combined with probable narcosis at greater depths, could result in a panic-type reaction followed by a rapid, uncontrolled ascent to the surface. I'm just thinking out loud here, but it would seem to be in the instructor and agency's best interest to do at least one relatively shallow dive under fairly controlled conditions to assess the diver's skills before trying anything else more challenging.

Is the victim's max depth known? The article quoted by MaxBottomTime reported a depth "more than 65 feet below the surface." Just curious whether narcosis might have been an issue. I'm familiar with the underwater terrain at the Casino Point UW Park, and a person really has to try to get to a depth where narcosis might be an issue. There are no steep drop-offs in that area. As I recall, there's a moderate slope all the way down to about 90 fsw...where it flattens out even more.

[roturner]

Along these lines...
Is it still accepted practice for PADI instructors teaching advanced OW (AOW) students to take them on the deep dive (approx. 100 fsw) for Dive #1 of the class?

It's not forbidden but I don't believe I know any instructors who would do this. The generally accepted practice is that the deep dive is one of the LAST things you do.

R..

[merxlin]

Along these lines...
Is it still accepted practice for PADI instructors teaching advanced OW (AOW) students to take them on the deep dive (approx. 100 fsw) for Dive #1 of the class?

It's not forbidden but I don't believe I know any instructors who would do this. The generally accepted practice is that the deep dive is one of the LAST things you do. R..

I have seen this done but PADI just changed that standard recently. I believe it now must be at least the 3rd AOW dive. (Hopefully a PADI indtructor will verify/correct this).

Is the victim's max depth known? The article quoted by MaxBottomTime reported a depth "more than 65 feet below the surface." Just curious whether narcosis might have been an issue. I'm familiar with the underwater terrain at the Casino Point UW Park, and a person really has to try to get to a depth where narcosis might be an issue. There are no steep drop-offs in that area. As I recall, there's a moderate slope all the way down to about 90 fsw...where it flattens out even more.

Initial problem was at 60-65 FSW. They were on the way down.

[merxlin]

Maybe you're right about that. It's not impossible for a heart problem to present as panic..... But I'll point out *and stress* that assumption is the mother of all Fuuuk-ups. Frankly, all heart problems I've seen in my limited experiece did not present as panic. The simple fact is that in REALITY heart problems don't lead to people "freaking out" (ie panicking) they lead to people looking exceeding subdued and as if they have been hit by a car.... People who have the "energy" to panic don't have heart problems.

Maybe in normal everyday life, but at the onset, underwater, I can see where adrenaline could kick in. And this is all assumption right now. That is the point. Neither you or I were there, so we have an equal chance of being correct or completely wrong.

Yes. I believe that this is the order in which is was presented on a thread on an internet forum. Do I blelieve that this is also the order in which it actually happened....? ..

Apparently not.

Yes, but based on what you said I don't believe you've ever seen anyone have a heart attack. R..

I have. But there are heart attacks and there are massive conoary events. Some will leave you short of breath and a bit sweaty, some kill you instantly. Again, not really important right now. I never said it was a coronary event like a heart attack, I said it was one of the possibilities. We're discussing all of those.