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I'm wondering if the writer of the article erred when they wrote: "Nathanson tried to help Valente, but realized he toowas out of air. " (my bold and underline) - this indicates that someone else was already in an OOA situation - or maybe I missed something. If I'm reading this correctly it gives the impression that the deceased was OOA (or somebody was OOA before Nathanson realized his OOA status).
Originally Posted by DandyDon
Ok, ok - maybe this will answer questions left from the first news story...
I'm wondering if the writer of the article erred when they wrote: "Nathanson tried to help Valente, but realized he toowas out of air. " (my bold and underline) - this indicates that someone else was already in an OOA situation - or maybe I missed something. If I'm reading this correctly it gives the impression that the deceased was OOA (or somebody was OOA before Nathanson realized his OOA status).
I think the writer was a bit "fast and loose" with proper English. One diver was quite low on air, the victim was out. Since the victim had no gas to help the low-on-air buddy, the buddy left the victim and summoned help. That's my understanding.
All the comments about lack of planning are on target. No margin left for when the poop hit the fan.
Uncle Ricky, I'm also wondering whether it was actually a heart attack because the victim was out of air according to the article. Sure, it's possible that he was both out of air and had a heart attack, but hopefully we'll get more info.
At least 3 people were low on air/out of air and separate. I agree with all the rest of your points on planning and buddy protocols.
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Originally Posted by ahava
Yes you are, There is no way to practice all the scenarios, bouyancy, airway, gear configuration, current, emotions, victims size, surface conditions.etc.etc. a very good friend of mine and dive buddy for years just brought unconcious buddy up from 100 ft and said it was the hardest thing he has had to do both physically and emotionally. This diver is no rookie with 1000 dives under his belt, full cave cert. adv. trimix , rescue and all the rec. stuff. Surface emergency training might help with staying calm but not much help with the underwater procedure.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I carried limp swimmers from the bottom of pools when I was a child. These people were always significantly larger than me. It's awkward but it's not that difficult. Now, these were play scenarios so I wasn't trying to keep them breathing from a reg or anything but the added bubble management simply isn't that much more complex.
Worse comes to worst I'd bungie the reg in their mouth with my AAS bungie necklace and just move on only worrying about their BC. Most likely I'd drop their weights and empty my BC and just use theirs to manage buoyancy for both of us. Underwater procedure be damned, we're getting to the surface however I can manage it. Emergency management is about using the tools you have at hand, whether they're the "right" tools/procedures or not.
Sure in a real emergency you're going to be more on edge/scared/whatever but I've been trained, a lot, for emergency management so my question still stands, what makes this so complex? I stand behind my statement that it really isn't that complicated and the biggest issue people have is thinking through the problem, not actually doing the physical work.
I also agree with Don's statement. I'd have tried to bring the guy up on my very first dive after OW. Hell, I would have tried before finishing OW, because it's the right thing to do. If that put my life in jeopardy at some point, I would reevaluate the situation.
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but I carried limp swimmers from the bottom of pools when I was a child. These people were always significantly larger than me. It's awkward but it's not that difficult. Now, these were play scenarios so I wasn't trying to keep them breathing from a reg or anything but the added bubble management simply isn't that much more complex.
Worse comes to worst I'd bungie the reg in their mouth with my AAS bungie necklace and just move on only worrying about their BC. Most likely I'd drop their weights and empty my BC and just use theirs to manage buoyancy for both of us. Underwater procedure be damned, we're getting to the surface however I can manage it. Emergency management is about using the tools you have at hand, whether they're the "right" tools/procedures or not.
Sure in a real emergency you're going to be more on edge/scared/whatever but I've been trained, a lot, for emergency management so my question still stands, what makes this so complex? I stand behind my statement that it really isn't that complicated and the biggest issue people have is thinking through the problem, not actually doing the physical work.
I also agree with Don's statement. I'd have tried to bring the guy up on my very first dive after OW. Hell, I would have tried before finishing OW, because it's the right thing to do. If that put my life in jeopardy at some point, I would reevaluate the situation.
Its not about just getting them to the surface, any beginner can do that quite easily. Its about getting them there without possibly doing them more harm and hurting or killing both of you in the process. And the physical work of controlling the ascent can be very tough. Release weights on someone with full 7mil wetsuit on and see what happens. Both of will be going for a ride. Maybe someone in a shortie with a single 80 on their back with no extras hanging all over them might not be that bad , but your blanket statement is incorrect IMO
I have done retrieval of "unconscious diver" in a number of classes, and it is not a trivial endeavor. It's definitely doable, but it requires poise and some knowledge on the part of the rescuer to maintain control of his own buoyancy and the buoyancy of the victim. I can easily see someone, frightened and anxious at finding his buddy unresponsive, unable to get a stable hold of him and low on his own gas, deciding to ascend without the victim.
Its not about just getting them to the surface, any beginner can do that quite easily. Its about getting them there without possibly doing them more harm and hurting or killing both of you in the process. And the physical work of controlling the ascent can be very tough. Release weights on someone with full 7mil wetsuit on and see what happens. Both of will be going for a ride. Maybe someone in a shortie with a single 80 on their back with no extras hanging all over them might not be that bad , but your blanket statement is incorrect IMO
A lot of the time, I don't think it's as as difficult as you're saying. Lots of people do this during their basic OW course, where exceptionally difficult things are normally avoided, and I think pretty well everyone does it in a Rescue course. It can be challenging if you don't know how, or aren't recently practiced, but there are lots of divers that make that complaint about two people ascending under control while breathing off a reg and an octo attached to the same tank. There are also certainly situations which are more difficult than others (i.e. massively overweighted victim) but these should be the exception, not the norm. So please don't scare people off from learning how to do it properly by claiming it's almost impossible, when it's by far the opposite.
. So please don't scare people off from learning how to do it properly by claiming it's almost impossible, when it's by far the opposite.
So where did I say that?? Did you read my origional post?? I'm a Instructor, I teach people how to do this, I'm not trying to scare anyone from learning. Its just the oppisite, If people dont think it a walk in the park, they might get more training or just practice more. I was replying to the blanket comment, where it was said that it should not be difficult to do. And I replied that it can be depending on a number of factors. Pull someone to the surface with double 100s, stage bottles, wreck reels, lights, and a half dozen other things, while you are in the same configuration, whiledoing it safely for you and the victim, and then say it was no problem!! I just said dont make a blanket statement when thats far from the truth.
Last edited by ahava; February 9th, 2012 at 02:47 PM.
... wondering why you think it was most likely a heart attack ...
Statistics. If a middle aged man or woman suddenly collapses it's most likely a heart attack (odds are almost certain for heart attack or stroke, with heart attacks at least a six-to-one favorite). Sure, there are other possibilities, but there aren't many, and statistically, CVA or stroke are essentially it. Above water, vehicle accidents, falls and suicide break the statistical horizon for sudden incapacitation, but those aren't likely while diving.
For those concerned that "heart attack" seems to be cropping up lately as a cause of diving deaths in an almost "catch-all" fashion in what appear to be otherwise healthy folks, just realize that above water (and leaving out vehicle mishaps, falls & suicide), heart attacks enjoy an even wider margin at the top of sudden death events. I suspect that many heart attacks under water are still officially "drownings."
Rick
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Originally Posted by DandyDon
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