Is safe second really needed?

[pittyyofool]

I have racked my brain for months trying to answer that question. "Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?" I see and know the necessity for a long hose primary and a short secondary in wreck, cave or technical diving (when i wreck dive I use a proper set up). So this question is strictly regarding recreational open water dives within the NDL. In my 14 years of diving I have never been in nor been able to think of a situation where buddy breathing would not suffice, but a "octo" could. To me it seems the only thing an "octo" is good for is beating reefs and a kelp anchor, because those "octo keepers" don't work worth a damn. With this in mind my (very experienced) buddy and I removed our "octos" about 8 months ago. Since then we get dirty "unsafe" looks from people and DM's, once in a while some one says "we are dangerous and need an octo so we can share air." To that we have replied "Why is that? Isn't that is why they invented Buddy Breathing". To date no diver nor DM has been able to come up with a better answer than "It is easier', or because PADI said so bla bla bla. And I have even received a "Hell Yeah, stick it to him" from an old timer. As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah".

PS: don't tell me to get a BC air source, they are annoying and hinder effective manual inflation of the air cell.

[Gombessa]

Why dismiss the value of something easier and less stressful in the event of a gas emergency, especially when it prevents the donating diver from peril as well?

If your buddy isn't around or paying attention when you have a problem, buddy breathing doesn't work.

[sharkbaitDAN]

Because many divers are not taught how to buddy breathe anymore. I have no idea how many times I've donated my octo. Buddy breathing is no good if the buddy doesn't know how to do it. Up to a point, I agree its a crutch, but I would also argue octo breathing is safer because both people have a reg in their mouths at all times. This means at no time can one diver think "what if he doesn't give his reg back?" Training is all well and good, but the majority of divers I see dive once a year, and quite frankly, the notion of buddy breathing with a poorly trained, panicked diver scares me. A lot.

Granted, if you only dive with buddies you know, this is pretty much a moot argument.

[Shcubasteve]

What if your buddy or some other panic stricken, out-of-air diver snatches out your primary and won't give it back? My parents tell a story of checkout dives in the 70s where buddy breathing was standard... Sounds scary to me.

[TC]

Sure, your buddy has not been trained in buddy breathing.

Not all agencies require this anymore so theres a sizeable group out there that do not possess the training.

Could they learn- sure, but having an additional second fits better with the training the folks are getting now and because of that it increases safety a bit.

Having a diver that may already be a bit panicky remove their air source repeatedly to pass it back and forth is not a safer alternative to giving them a second stage they can hang onto.

[AzAtty]

As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

I'm suppressing the urge to channel GI3.

After experiencing a loss of gas, exit single-file from a narrow, silted out cave or wreck when the only guide out is your reel. Add a few stage and deco bottles to your list of things to manage. Then ask the question again if the reasons for a backup are still unclear.

The reasons for a backup don't change merely because the environment changes.

[Jorgy]

I agree with Gombessa.......why not have the octo in case you need it?

Sure you could buddy breath, but what is the benefit of more task loading in what could be a very stressful situation.......

As far as an octo just being good for "beating reefs and a kelp anchor"......that's just bad gear routing, stowage and general lack of respect........no excuse for that at all, like beating the reef with fins............I think scuba certification should focus more on gear set-up and reef/ocean awareness - diving rules of the road if you will.........

Personally, I could never imagine diving without a secondary..........

As I often dive with my darling bride and children, I guess the secondary is there for them, and they are 1000000% worth it........

M

[Jupiter31]

Back in the '70's when I got certified, buddy breathing was taught as a skill that needed to be mastered to pass the course; just like mask clearing. I am not sure this skill is even taught anymore. Don't think the time to learn is when a person is out of air at 60 feet.

Personally, in an out of air situation, where panic can come into play, an octo is a much better solution, because you can't depend on having the other party relinquish the reg. What works well in a pool, or a controled environment might not in a real world situation.

Its also a safety factor in the unlikely event you have a problem with your primary.

Also, while somewhat gross, a new diver recently posted she vomited in her primary at depth, but used her octo to complete the dive.

On the comment about the octo bouncing along the reef, this is a peeve of mine; easily solved by attaching the octo via a snorkle keeper (less than a dollar) to a D ring on your BC - no reason not to have this piece of safety equipment; agree they should teach proper gear set up as a part of basic certification.

[Sas]

The main reason is because many new divers are not taught buddy breathing. I know I didn't learn that in OW and learned it later on with my buddy. I trust my regular buddies to be fine with buddy breathing if needed, but not random people I might be paired with on a boat.

Another reason is that my primary second stage might fail for some reason and it would be nice to have a backup for myself. I have mine on a bungee around my neck, so doesn't beat kelp and dangle around the place. My primary is stowed across my chest and around my neck so doesn't dangle or catch on things either.

Another nice reason to have an occy is so that you can share air with your buddy if there is a big difference in air consumption. For example, one buddy wasn't able to get a tank filled recently so started the dive with 100 bar. We shared air for much of the dive as I had a full tank and were able to both get an 80min dive in that way. It would have been annoying to do the dive buddy breathing.

Also one other reason - hygiene. One guy who ran OOA on me had bad coldsores that day, ick >.< I wouldn't want to buddy breathe with someone who had coldsores! Ending up with a gross lifelong disease via sharing a mouthpiece with some idiot who ran out on me is not something I really want to risk. He can have his own second stage that I can spend time disinfecting after the dive.

[CR Diver]

Generally, I try to stay away from having an opinion on other divers gear, especially when they are far more expierenced than I am.

I believe that the configuration of YOUR gear is YOUR business, with some consideration to your buddy.

If your diving with someone at your experience level and is comfortable with your setup on OW dives, then enjoy your dives. I dive occasionally with the local dive club (most members have been diving 20+ years) and they dive with very little redundancy. No BC's (relying on drysuit), no octo's, nice simple rigs. Who am I to have an opinion on their configuration. On Sunday my buddy and I were at 135', and one of the good old boys (diving 30yrs) went by to whatever depth with one of these rigs, we were impressed with how clean he looked on the way by.

I also dive with newly OW certs (or am in the water with them) most weekends. Listening to them breathe underwater, I have the opinion that they would not be able to buddy breathe with another diver properly, as they are breathing to hard to give up an air source in a buddy breathing situation. I have had one OOA situation with a fellow DM candidate (he had a reg malfunction) at 120'. We were on our decent to a wall in current and cold water (46F). He grabbed my fin and walked up my body until he found my wreck hose (octo) and started breathing off of it. It took a few moments for him to catch his breathe as he had been holding it for a while. If we were trying to buddy breathe i would have been holding my breathe for quite a while waiting for him to recover from having no air. By having a extra regulator on we were able to manage the situation comfortably. In this situation it was definatly benefical to have an extra air source.

My point is: Your configuration is your configuration Find a buddy that dives the same way, and ignore the rest of us.