Split from Catalina Diver died.. Advanced Certification is a joke

[Cave Diver]

So yes, it is the instructor in one sense and it is the agency in another sense, it is the interactive term between the two in reality.

I could buy that.

[ae3753]

I think that what I just said.

I was quoting you cause I agreed with your statement

What is it that you find offensice?

Lack of support from the major agencies, in what feels like the pursuit of increased number of divers (certs and material sales) over diver education.

Especially since instructors pay dues and each certified student is revenue for the agency.

So what agency do you find that with? I find that with none of them.

I teach the UTD recreational curriculum. Here's the UTD standard and procedures.

[Thalassamania]

Thanks, I'm familiar with them. Do you find them (UTD) adequate or inadequate? What about about their training materials?

[RonFrank]

The reality of certification is that most new divers do just want to dive a warm water reef somewhere so they meander into the local dive shop and ask the question, "How much and how long will it take". It's after that, where things start to happen.....

Unfortunately I think "END" is more often the case, at least in our area. I meet many folks who are certified, go on one dive vacation, and quite. They all talk highly of their dives, but nothing about the next.

While the folks I tend to *hang out* with are divers, a lot of certified divers dive a few times, and stop. I can't explain that. Maybe diving is a drug, and I can't understand an ability to resist that high.

[Teamcasa]

Unfortunately I think "END" is more often the case, at least in our area. I meet many folks who are certified, go on one dive vacation, and quite. They all talk highly of their dives, but nothing about the next.

While the folks I tend to *hang out* with are divers, a lot of certified divers dive a few times, and stop. I can't explain that. Maybe diving is a drug, and I can't understand an ability to resist that high.

I'm sure geography and economy have a lot to do with it as well. Here in SoCal we also have a large number of vacation divers but since diving for us is local and not too expensive we also have a large number of year round divers.

[ae3753]

Thanks, I'm familiar with them. Do you find them (UTD) adequate or inadequate? What about about their training materials?

Obviously, I'm biased. One of the reasons I became a UTD instructor was that I could teach for an agency that I respect the standards.

I like the UTD training materials. With a combination of voice-over presentations, instructional videos of skills, and online discussion forum, there is a significant amount of material to prepare a student for class. I feel like the agency puts the onus of diver success on the agency and instructor.

Currently, some of the materials are rough. There's typos and some voice-overs are uneven. However, I'd take more information than polish at this time.

[Ken Kurtis]

But I am saying that the course I teach, for a variety of reasons, would not be permitted under PADI standards.

Especially for those who aren't instructors reading this, I think there needs to be some clarification of the implementation of standards for both NAUI & PADI.

You could read the general outlines and come to the conclusion that the standards are pretty much the same. They both require 4 scuba dives (although NAUI adds in a fifth dive OR a skin-diving option), they both mandate OW training over two days, max depth of 60 feet, and other similiarties. (And yes, there are some differences as well.)

But the real difference between the two, and part of what I'll call the myth in Thalassamania's statement, comes in how those standards are interpreted.

For NAUI, the standards are considered MINIMUM standards. In other words, NAUI sets a floor of performance beliow which I cannot allow a student to go. You must do AT LEAST what's proscribed in the NAUI standards for a given course. If I, as the NAUI instructor-of-record, choose to exceed those standards (for instance, by requiring 10 dives, or by making you swim a 440 instead of a 220, etc., etc.) that's OK as long as the MINIMUM standards are met. I can't eliminate things, but I can add things.

In contrast PADI sets MAXIMUM standards. In other words, PADI sets a ceiling which you cannot exceed. (In fact, it's a floor too since you can't fall below the standards.) However, there's a catch here and it's a discussion I've had with the PADI legal department frequently.

You often hear PADI instructors saying, "Well, I can't teach beyond the course standards." Yes, you can. The catch is that you can't make it a REQUIRED part of the course.

In other words, if as a PADI instructor, I want you to do 6 dives, I can have you do that. But if after you complete the first four dives successfully you decide you don't want to do #5 and #6 I can't withhold your card for not doing the extra dives.

Now, there's another catch. Suppose you decide to add a pool bailout. You're not going to make it a required part of the course. Your student suffers some injury during the exercise and sues you. You will now be called upon to explain why you taught outside PADI standards in the first place and may find that you have an insurance problem, should they find that that particular skill caused the accident.

Confused? Scared to deviate? That's what the PADI instructors face. In fact, some are so intimidated that they have said to me that if they even DISCUSS something not covered in the PADI Instructor's manual, they feel they'll be nailed for a standards violation. (Not true, BTW.)

But I do know that many of the IDCs firmly state "you cannot exceed standards" and that's not exactly correct. Splitting hairs, I know, but it does make a difference.

- Ken

[Papa_Bear]

The problem with all the "What if and We should" is it is not a captive group! These people are consumers and can go down the road anytime and may never need anything above a card to get air! I have said it many times: "Cards don't make divers, diving makes Divers"! So how do you encourage people to get more training and more experience! So whether an certifying organization uses "Floors or Ceilings" it still boils down to a person who is free to do what they want and that includes no training beyond basic!

As dedicated Divers here we take the next step, challenge, effort to learn, or whatever it takes to expand our knowledge.

As long as the Instructor does his job in a manner constant with the normal acceptable levels of the industry! Then it boils down to personal responsibility and one of the first things that should be taught is the ability to call a dive for whatever reason without incrimination from anyone! Never go over your ability or your head unless YOU are willing to be responsible for the out come!

Diving is safe, but water is not always so, but it is the risk we knowingly take in order to dive!

[TSandM]

Well, as someone who is muddling through a DM class at nudibranch speed . . . I think the agency has an effect beyond what they set for standards. PADI educational materials, as a student above has observed, are written like newspapers -- to be accessible to anyone who can read. The "Tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them what you told them" pattern is familiar to a lot of us who have done any kind of higher education. The PADI Encyclopedia, in its current iteration, is actually FULL of good information, but is written in so patronizing and condescending a tone that I often want to throw it across a room.

What's worse is that I think the pervasive attitude that the student has little intelligence, little background, little patience, and a limited capacity to absorb information, leads to the attitude of instructors who say you can't teach neutral buoyancy in OW; you can't teach gas management in OW; you have to do the skills on your knees; you can't ask the students to plan a dive in OW. If your agency thinks its students are idiots, then the instructors will unconsciously (or consciously) adopt that position as well, and forget that challenging students often brings out far more than the instructor thought might be possible.

When I took my first GUE class, I took a deep breath of relief and said, "Finally, an agency that treats me like an adult, and expects me to do my part to meet the instructor halfway in this learning process."

I do think that, to get good instruction, you have to have a good instructor -- which means good diving skills (which are by no means universal in instructors, and are not even much evaluated in instructor training), good teaching skills, and an interest in actually teaching diving (rather than making money for themselves or their shop). But the materials and the philosophy of an agency can seriously influence WHO teaches for them, and HOW those people teach.

And, BTW, we have an answer about long, expensive, thorough OW classes. GUE and UTD both have them out for about a year, and to my knowledge, about four or five classes have been taught.

[drbill]

As far as PADI instructional materials go, I was rather surprised to find several of the questions in the tests for rescue and DM were poorly written and with reasonable knowledge one could call the prescribed answer in question yet PADI insists on the answer they think is correct. I can't give specifics because I no longer have any of my training materials from those two courses.