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[QUOTE=the wart;6213699]
Anyway, TM, on wrecks where taking is perfectly legal, what is your view there?
Still no opinion. As wrecks aren't really my thing I don't feel qualified. Most--no all of the wrecks I've been on are IMO piles of junk. Maybe a dive in the Great Lakes someday would change my views.
What do you think of treasure hunters? I've never done it but seems like I would have 2 opinions on it. One is the thrill of the hunt but second is leaving something cool there for others to see/experience too. It's true what they say about one mans treasure is another mans junk and obviously if you found 18th century gold coins you would probably be inclined to take it as you can almost be certain the next guy will if you don't. Just curious as to what you think about these types of people.
In my profession (safe and vault technician), I think it would be a total blast to say that I cracked a safe on a world renowned ship wreck leaving everything in tact and doing the whole job on the boat rather than just hauling the safe up with a crane. There would be a thrill of finding the thing as well as actually completing the task and not to mention whatever treasure you find within. I think if it were allowed and didn't violate any laws I would do it. It's not like people visiting the site could see what's in the safe anyway. This could be the workings of a new distinctive specialty too..... PADI Underwater Safe Cracker
PADI Advanced Open Water Certified / DAN+ Member
PADI Nitrox, Shark, Drysuit, EFR Certified [Dive Count: 23]
"I think its a good idea to have some background going into the actual course, so that you can focus on fine-tuning your brain rather than it being the first time you are exposed to the concepts." - BluewaterSail
A friend of mine found the Eber Ward in the Mackinaw straights of Lake Michigan. he published the coordinates after it was within the boundries of the "preserve" The next weekend lift bags were popping left and right. He vowed never to publish coordinates again. Well the attitude has changed a bit in the great lakes and he is once again allowing the diving community some of his discoveries. (some of which is posted on this board). He was a great mentor to me and i will only take pictures.
On the other hand in the Long Island sound the wrecks are just lumps of rust and with 0-4 viz the only way you can find anything is to grab it out of the mud, drag it to the boat, then see what you have. I don't do that yet I really don't blame those that do. So I guess my attitude is the significance of the junk and if the junk can be admired without disturbing.
What do you think of treasure hunters? I've never done it but seems like I would have 2 opinions on it. One is the thrill of the hunt but second is leaving something cool there for others to see/experience too. It's true what they say about one mans treasure is another mans junk and obviously if you found 18th century gold coins you would probably be inclined to take it as you can almost be certain the next guy will if you don't. Just curious as to what you think about these types of people.
Treasure hunting is wildly over-rated. In the UK we have to report finds/revoveries to the Receiver of Wrecks; the highest find is normally in the region of £30'000. A nice little bonus to the average salary, but not the mega-bucks we tend to think of in Treasure hunting.
Also when you think of Mel Fisher and his 20 years hunt for the Atocha, it kind of takes the thrill of the hunt away. Not least of all the damage he did along the way; but perhaps that is another thread.
Originally Posted by XS-NRG
In my profession (safe and vault technician), I think it would be a total blast to say that I cracked a safe on a world renowned ship wreck leaving everything in tact and doing the whole job on the boat rather than just hauling the safe up with a crane. There would be a thrill of finding the thing as well as actually completing the task and not to mention whatever treasure you find within. I think if it were allowed and didn't violate any laws I would do it. It's not like people visiting the site could see what's in the safe anyway. This could be the workings of a new distinctive specialty too..... PADI Underwater Safe Cracker
Careful, I've been working a dive novel for a few years about 2 wreck divers hunting down lost gold; you shouldn't give me those sorts of plotlines!!!
PADI Advanced Open Water Certified / DAN+ Member
PADI Nitrox, Shark, Drysuit, EFR Certified [Dive Count: 23]
"I think its a good idea to have some background going into the actual course, so that you can focus on fine-tuning your brain rather than it being the first time you are exposed to the concepts." - BluewaterSail
recreational depth today may not be recreational depth in a few years. so personal i dont think that is a good reason. to each his own on how they dive, but i would personal like to be able to dive the wrecks you guys have dove and get to see the things that are there not have to google search for pictures of them sitting in peoples living rooms.
I agree that most of these wrecks are graves. Should I take something from Poe's grave site because eventually it will just fall apart anyway? No.
These items shouldnt be disturbed. If you want to visit, you visit and leave, and take nothing with you as a trophy.
Honestly, after the movie Titanic, if the Britannic had not been at such a depth, and not a protected Royal Navy war grave, there would be nothing left of her. Especially with the attitude that it is a decade or so from structural collapse.
recreational depth today may not be recreational depth in a few years.
1) Unless the universal gas laws change, then the concept of maintaining the ability to perform a direct ascent to the surface will still limit the depths of the vast majority of divers.
2) Technical and CCR diving will surely boom in popularity, meaning more divers exceed recreational limits and dive deeper (with appropriate deco training).
3) A great wreck today may not be a great wreck in a few years, regardless of diver interference - the sea takes care of that..
On that note, there's lots of discussion about 'wreck preservation'. I don't think anyone mentioned that to the Ocean. Currents, storms...natural oxidation and rot... all conspire against such preservation. Objects get swept from wrecks. Stuff gets buried beneath the moving sands on sea floor.
Leave all the interesting and historically relevant stuff on wrecks for future generations.... come back the next year....and it can be gone. Not a diver on it.
Unlike a coral reef, which is organic, self-healing and ultimately growing.... a wreck is on a one-way trip to disintegration, collapse and is ultimately disappearing.
I think that there is some argument that for historical wrecks that are inaccessible to recreational divers, then recovering a few important artifacts is really not a problem - as a previous post mentioned, it might be the only thing that is ever seen from that wreck and a former colleague of mine used to search for and then dive and identify "lost" wrecks, particularly from the second world war. The team would attempt to recover the ship's bell, or some other important piece of identification, perhaps a few other items, then report it to the relevant government.
In this respect, it provided some historical record of the ship's last resting place, and therefore the graves of the seamen who perished, and perhaps provide some closure for the families who lost relatives when the ship went down.
For recreational wrecks, or as soon as a wreck becomes accessible to the general public, that is to say, artifact recovery becomes for personal gain without historical relevance (or perhaps important salvage), then leave it alone, especially if it is a war grave.
The OP mentioned the wreck of the SS Thistlegorm, which is my favourite dive in the world ever, and which is being torn apart through careless application of mooring lines and - to my mind at least - grave robbing. In recent years, motorcycles have been removed, along with any number of the Enfield rifles, wellington boots, and there is probably not a single car or motorcycle that has not had some part removed. To any diver who has any piece of that wreck on their mantlepiece at home, you should be ashamed of yourself.
When I visit the wreck, I always brief my divers that if they wish to take a souvenir from the Thistlegorm, then they can take anything at all that they like... as long as they stay down there with it!
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Originally Posted by XS-NRG
