Sorry for the long post...My wife and I have around 75 dives and recently got our advanced cert and nitrox cert. Recently I went on a dive trip without my wife/buddy. Her biggest concern was I would get wrapped up in filming something and not pay attention to our dive group, etc. She usually stays aware of where the divemaster is and stuff if I take a little too long filming some wildlife. I of course do the same for her if she is absorbed in something and we need to move on to keep up with the group. I assured her that we have been diving forever with the same divemaster and he will make sure I am OK. Sure enough, I was diving without a buddy and I started filming a huge turtle and when I looked up the divemaster, along with 3 of our group was long gone. Now I was very aware that two others in our group, who are very good divers, were with me taking pictures as well. So I was not overly concerned. It took a bit of time for the 3 of us to find the divemaster, but all was well. My question is, should the divemaster have either A. Told us to come along at some point, or B. stayed with us. Yes, I have my advanced cert and yes he knows that and also knew that two experienced divers were still "with me". Still it seems to me that I am still paying him exactly what I have always paid him to be our guide and divemaster. So, should I now expect that his watchfulness changes? Am I now expected to "be on my own"? A note: the divemaster that dive was not the same one I usually dive with, who is the owner of the operation, but I have dove with this other guy many times as well. Should I say something to the "boss" about his employees behaviour, or is it really not a big deal?
Divemaster Responsibilities
- Thread starter mridude
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You don't say where this occurred. What is expected of a DM in the water varies greatly from location to location. There are no universal rules, and so the role of the DM depends upon local laws and the policies of the operator. In some areas the DM is expected to keep the herd together. In other places the DM is there if you want to be near him or her, but you are free to go off and do your own dive if you wish. In other places there will not even be a DM in the water, and you are on your own no matter what.
In all cases, you should consider yourself capable of taking care of yourself, and what happens to you is ultimately your own responsibility.
In all cases, you should consider yourself capable of taking care of yourself, and what happens to you is ultimately your own responsibility.
I understand what you are saying. I've known this particular operator for many years and he has always been quite attentive to our needs and whereabouts, so I just wonder if now that we have our advanced cert should I expect that this will change. Cozumel, by the way.
Cozumel is different from most places. Dives in the marine park must be led by a DM. The DM is supposed to keep the group together because it is a drift dive with no flag. If the group splits up and divers surface in different locations, it will be difficult for the boat following the group to find them all. The DM is therefore supposed to watch, but there is also an obligation of the divers in the group to maintain contact with the group. I have been on Coumel dives that were absolutely ruined by people who went their own way, forcing the DM to alter the dive plan to chase after them.
For sure. DMs don’t get in the water at all on Pacific Coast boats unless it is during a surface interval when they get a chance to dive solo for fun. OK, they will dive in to assist in a surface rescue but that’s about it.
drrich2
Contributor
The level of monitoring you need is well in excess of what the average diver needs, and making the guide responsible for photographers & videographers who don't pay attention & stay with the group appears to be a bit much. The level of service you want suggests the need for a private guide.
Be mindful when asking for advice that your audience will likely have a 'culture' of sorts. I've found that the ScubaBoard membership tend to come down pretty strongly on the side of personal responsibility (e.g.: when somebody posts in Accidents & Incidents and posts like the DM wasn't watching them close enough or taking care of their problems adequately, I know a 'bloodbath' will likely ensue). I'm surprised I haven't already seen a strong retaliation at your statement:
And then this...
I like snap shooting and I'm a daydreamer by nature, so sticking with the group can be difficult at times, but it's my responsibility to do so.
I didn't mean anything I said to be abrasive and I'm glad you asked to clarify the issue rather than just jumping to some conclusion.
Richard.
Be mindful when asking for advice that your audience will likely have a 'culture' of sorts. I've found that the ScubaBoard membership tend to come down pretty strongly on the side of personal responsibility (e.g.: when somebody posts in Accidents & Incidents and posts like the DM wasn't watching them close enough or taking care of their problems adequately, I know a 'bloodbath' will likely ensue). I'm surprised I haven't already seen a strong retaliation at your statement:
And then this...
I like snap shooting and I'm a daydreamer by nature, so sticking with the group can be difficult at times, but it's my responsibility to do so.
I didn't mean anything I said to be abrasive and I'm glad you asked to clarify the issue rather than just jumping to some conclusion.
Richard.
Answering from the perspective of a DM (devils advocate), I agree that it depends a lot on where you are. I have worked in places where I would never let anyone out of my sight but now working in Grand Cayman I am a little different.
First off - good point about how DMs work in the States. In the UK we don't have them at all, just a boat skipper who gets you to the site and tells you what time he wants you back. If you are a certified diver then you should be able to manage yourself underwater making a DM more of a guide than a guardian angel.
I think you are thinking about this situation from just your own perspective. Imagine the DM has a group of 8 people to guide on a dive. One has a camera and likes to hang around at the back, barely remaining in visual contact. Another on the other hand likes to charge on forward seeing what waits behind the next finger of reef, what does the DM do? who wins? Does he annoy the other 6 people on the dive who are pootling along at a normal pace by banging the hell out of his tank trying to get the attention of a photographer who is "lost in the subject" or does he start chasing after people and have to start herding them like sheep?
If you sign up for a group dive led by a DM then in my opinion you have to pay attention to what is going on and respect the others in the group by being a part of it as opposed to controlling direction/speed yourself thereby effectively leading the dive. If you know you will not likely manage to stay with the group (as your wife indicated) then don't sign up to dive with one, get a private guide or if the location allows just find a buddy and jump in.
As a DM I run the dive based on what the customers are doing in the water, if they want to go slow and stay close ish to the boat getting in to the detail of the reef then great, if they want to go on a mission heading out far then thats fine by me too. Typically I will aim for the mid ground so as to be appealing to the majority and asses the groups desires by watching their beaviour while on the dive. If people are hanging at the back and they are clearly safe and comfortable and in a buddy pair (or more) then I am not going to disrupt other peoples dive by making them go back over ground we have covered to try to get the stragglers to keep up. Everyone on the dive is a certified diver, I am a guide, I do not own the divers, if they want to do their own thing and not stay with the group then thats their call.
Thats cutting it up simply, there are of course other factors like reading peoples ability and maturity. I have lost count of the amount of times divers with cameras have apologised when back on the boat for breaking off and doing their own thing because the mood took them that way at the time. They should be courteous enough to wave a signal saying they are not going to tag along any longer and that all's well but 90% of the time they don't.
Where I work, we give people the opportunity to dive unguided if they want as long as they have a buddy. The last part of the briefing as we are above the site is to ask who wants to come with me and who wants to break off on their own. I like to promote diver independence but is has to be safe and thought out.
From what you have written, I guess it sounds like you either need to adjust your behaviour underwater (as you and your wife both know you are prone to getting separated) or you get your own guide. Unless the DM was really rocketing, in decent enough visibility it should take a good few minutes before you lose visual contact. Taking photographs is nice but your personal safety as a diver (where am I? where is my buddy?) should be more of a priority to you than it currently appears to be.
Plan the dive and dive the plan, if the plan is to stay wit the group then stay with the group. 6 people working together is far better for everyone than 6 people doing their own thing and expecting the DM to somehow hold everything together.
First off - good point about how DMs work in the States. In the UK we don't have them at all, just a boat skipper who gets you to the site and tells you what time he wants you back. If you are a certified diver then you should be able to manage yourself underwater making a DM more of a guide than a guardian angel.
I think you are thinking about this situation from just your own perspective. Imagine the DM has a group of 8 people to guide on a dive. One has a camera and likes to hang around at the back, barely remaining in visual contact. Another on the other hand likes to charge on forward seeing what waits behind the next finger of reef, what does the DM do? who wins? Does he annoy the other 6 people on the dive who are pootling along at a normal pace by banging the hell out of his tank trying to get the attention of a photographer who is "lost in the subject" or does he start chasing after people and have to start herding them like sheep?
If you sign up for a group dive led by a DM then in my opinion you have to pay attention to what is going on and respect the others in the group by being a part of it as opposed to controlling direction/speed yourself thereby effectively leading the dive. If you know you will not likely manage to stay with the group (as your wife indicated) then don't sign up to dive with one, get a private guide or if the location allows just find a buddy and jump in.
As a DM I run the dive based on what the customers are doing in the water, if they want to go slow and stay close ish to the boat getting in to the detail of the reef then great, if they want to go on a mission heading out far then thats fine by me too. Typically I will aim for the mid ground so as to be appealing to the majority and asses the groups desires by watching their beaviour while on the dive. If people are hanging at the back and they are clearly safe and comfortable and in a buddy pair (or more) then I am not going to disrupt other peoples dive by making them go back over ground we have covered to try to get the stragglers to keep up. Everyone on the dive is a certified diver, I am a guide, I do not own the divers, if they want to do their own thing and not stay with the group then thats their call.
Thats cutting it up simply, there are of course other factors like reading peoples ability and maturity. I have lost count of the amount of times divers with cameras have apologised when back on the boat for breaking off and doing their own thing because the mood took them that way at the time. They should be courteous enough to wave a signal saying they are not going to tag along any longer and that all's well but 90% of the time they don't.
Where I work, we give people the opportunity to dive unguided if they want as long as they have a buddy. The last part of the briefing as we are above the site is to ask who wants to come with me and who wants to break off on their own. I like to promote diver independence but is has to be safe and thought out.
From what you have written, I guess it sounds like you either need to adjust your behaviour underwater (as you and your wife both know you are prone to getting separated) or you get your own guide. Unless the DM was really rocketing, in decent enough visibility it should take a good few minutes before you lose visual contact. Taking photographs is nice but your personal safety as a diver (where am I? where is my buddy?) should be more of a priority to you than it currently appears to be.
Plan the dive and dive the plan, if the plan is to stay wit the group then stay with the group. 6 people working together is far better for everyone than 6 people doing their own thing and expecting the DM to somehow hold everything together.
I hope I didn't come across as a spoiled diver that expects pampering by the DM! I was not upset at the DM, but when you dive for years with an operator and they set certain expectations, I suppose it becomes natural to make assumptions based on past behaviour. My wife, on the other hand, is probably over-worried about me as we have always dove together. As I said in the original post, I was with two other experienced divers, so did not feel unsafe. This was not a typical Cozumel drift dive and there was little current to contend with, nor was it in an area of large coral heads or anything so most likely the DM was keeping track of our bubbles and would have taken action if he deemed it necessary.
Im not trying to be mean, however. You speek as if the DM is a paid superhero of some sort. Look at the situation and decide if he can provide the safety net for the whole group. Not only is he responsible for you he is for a dozen others also. For him to fill the protective role, you imply, he has to be with in a few feet of all divers. That is inpossible to do on those types of dives. So his role reduces to being a guide with a nose for trouble so he can move his attention where needed. Now you are a AOW, you have the card to say it. The DM has 5 new ow's and you in the water. Who is his nose for trouble sniffing at. Don't ever count on the DM to be your backup. Especially in a group. Your AOW training is supposed to give you skills that require much less intense attention by DM's and guide's. That is one reason they want to know your certs before the dive, so they can plan their group management plan. It is why so often you get the insta buddies you get. On one hand I want to say "You are an AOW and to start thinking and diving to the level that the AOW card represents",,,,, However I wont because the realities are just not that way. These realities are why I support SOLO divng so much, not to dive solo but to be able to skillfully dive solo, which in reality you are dong so many times. What I find very Positive about your post is that you are seeing the shortcomings and vulnerabilities involved with he DM's and guides on dives.
It sounds like there may have been a mismatch of expectations, which implies a communication issue. Easy to do with people we are familiar diving with...we just assume everyone is on the same page. I think it is important for a DM leading a dive to have a clear understanding of what each diver has in mind. On most dives I take I will have a few divers who need guiding (often novices who need a little supervision), and often a few who are familiar with the site and their buddy and don't need guiding. I always evaluate this before the dive, plan accordingly, and explain the plan to my divers. For the independent buddy pairs, I always offer them the option to separate from the group at any time, but stress that they must let me know.
As Scooby mentioned, holding up 8 divers for one photographer who wants to sit on the mooring is unfair to the majority...you just have to understand expectations in advance. I try to find a middle-ground, which is easy enough in good vis. In poor vis, esp in a current, it's imperative that everyone stays together...and there's no room for taking 18 photos of one nudi in those circumstances (and I may very likely be the one taking 18 photos of the nudi in other circumstances...)
Have a chat to the DM before the dive...most will be only too happy to plan something that works for everyone....and no DM wants to come back to the boat missing divers. It's an unpleasant feeling.
Dave.
As Scooby mentioned, holding up 8 divers for one photographer who wants to sit on the mooring is unfair to the majority...you just have to understand expectations in advance. I try to find a middle-ground, which is easy enough in good vis. In poor vis, esp in a current, it's imperative that everyone stays together...and there's no room for taking 18 photos of one nudi in those circumstances (and I may very likely be the one taking 18 photos of the nudi in other circumstances...)
Have a chat to the DM before the dive...most will be only too happy to plan something that works for everyone....and no DM wants to come back to the boat missing divers. It's an unpleasant feeling.
Dave.
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