Student to Instructor Ratio!

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SteveDiver

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Location
Texas
# of dives
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I had three of my friends take their OW-PADI. There was one Instructor and 26 students! Is there not a limit? My friends did not do 3min safety stop or complete their log books on their own. The instructor signed the blank log sheets. Anyway I took them diving over the weekend and finished teaching them what they should have learned in class. I even took them on a night dive with me. They stated that they learned more from me then their Instructor. At times I feel that some of these dive shops just care about the money and not the safety of others. Can you believe that all they did in the open water is go down to the platform! they never even went anywhere. They just sat on the platform to check off on their skills. This is crazy and it proves that any idiot can become an Instructor. Instructors like this make other Instructors look bad. I will continue to work with my friends on their skills.
 
According to the PADI manual, the maximum ratio of student divers to instructor during open water dives is 8 students to 1 instructor, with a certified assistant for each 2 additional students to a maximum of 12 students.

Your right though, practices such as the one you describe can cultivate a horrible environment for student divers. If you feel strongly enough, or it is a regular occurence you can contact PADI's Quality Assurance Programme who will investigate breach of standards.

Hope this helps.
 
subaquaman is correct. However, that doesn't mean the class size can be larger. An instructor can only have 8 students with them at one time in the water. My very first class I taught had 16 students. I broke them up into two groups of 8. I did have an AI with me to help watch the students and lead the underwater tour. So an instructor could have 26 students in the class, but not in the water.

I agree. When there are that many students, they don't get a chance to do underwater tours and get extra practice.
 
Ratios vary according to the number of available certified assistants and whether you are in classroom, confined water (pool) or open water.

I took my initial OW training through a university scuba club. We had about 45 or so for the classroom sessions and it really wasn't much of an issue. We broke into smaller groups for confined water training, with groups alternating nights in the olympic-sized pool. It was actually a pretty great way to run a course, and as a university sponsored club, we were able to take advantage of the facilities for little or no cost.

The only real difficulty was completing the open water dives. Again we broke into smaller groups. I was in group two, and since there wasn't enough of the right size wetsuit for everyone, some of us had to climb into a cold wetsuit while standing exposed in a parking lot. It was Wisconsin in October and it was COLD!
 
Had ten students, one instructor, two DM's, and a partridge in a pear tree :monkeydan

When I was doing my AOW I observed several OW classes in action (2 - PADI, 1 NAUI) and none of them was in the water with more than twelve students and all had one or more DM, with most having two.

Tammy (my AOW instructor) did 24 OW students the same weekend we did AOW, but she had 2 DM's assisting. And they dove in groups of 12.

I'm sure more instrucors will weigh in, however from my limted experience and observation, no one instructor had more than 12 students in the water, and they had help to the point the student to DM/Instructor ratio was 1:4 at the most.

As for skills, while your friends may have said they learned more from you then from the class is that really true? Were they able to clear their masks, share air, have knowledge of buoyancy, emergancy ascents, buddy diving, and other basic skills? Did they have basic out and back Nav skills? If that is what you taught them, then certainly, the LDS did a poor job. If not, then IMO they got out of the class what was intended.

It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize training organizations. One also tends to hear a lot of the negatives and few of the positives. IMO the OW certificaion does no make one an experienced diver, but rather provides the foundation for one to become a good diver.

PADI does have class limitations, and if you KNOW for a fact that the LDS these divers certified with had ONE instructor in the water with 26 students, IMO the students should contact PADI and report this as that is a dangerous situation.




goofystan:
I had three of my friends take their OW-PADI. There was one Instructor and 26 students! Is there not a limit? My friends did not do 3min safety stop or complete their log books on their own. The instructor signed the blank log sheets. Anyway I took them diving over the weekend and finished teaching them what they should have learned in class. I even took them on a night dive with me. They stated that they learned more from me then their Instructor. At times I feel that some of these dive shops just care about the money and not the safety of others. Can you believe that all they did in the open water is go down to the platform! they never even went anywhere. They just sat on the platform to check off on their skills. This is crazy and it proves that any idiot can become an Instructor. Instructors like this make other Instructors look bad. I will continue to work with my friends on their skills.
 
goofystan:
I had three of my friends take their OW-PADI. There was one Instructor and 26 students! Is there not a limit? My friends did not do 3min safety stop or complete their log books on their own. The instructor signed the blank log sheets. Anyway I took them diving over the weekend and finished teaching them what they should have learned in class. I even took them on a night dive with me. They stated that they learned more from me then their Instructor. At times I feel that some of these dive shops just care about the money and not the safety of others. Can you believe that all they did in the open water is go down to the platform! they never even went anywhere. They just sat on the platform to check off on their skills. This is crazy and it proves that any idiot can become an Instructor. Instructors like this make other Instructors look bad. I will continue to work with my friends on their skills.

Weren't you worried about the potential liability of doing that?

I can just imagine some lawyer:
"Ladies and Gentlement of the jury, when THAT MAN (whirling and pointing to goofystan) assumed the role of instructor to those people, they had no CHOICE to obey him. When my client's 350lb, athsmatic, 14-year-old son dove the Andrea Doria at night at 240' on a single tank clad only in a 2mm shorty, can we REALLY prove that he wasn't taught to do exactly that by the defendant? Can we? (clenching fists and screaming towards heaven) CAN WE?"
 
RonFrank:
Had ten students, one instructor, two DM's, and a partridge in a pear tree :monkeydan

When I was doing my AOW I observed several OW classes in action (2 - PADI, 1 NAUI) and none of them was in the water with more than twelve students and all had one or more DM, with most having two.

Tammy (my AOW instructor) did 24 OW students the same weekend we did AOW, but she had 2 DM's assisting. And they dove in groups of 12.

I'm sure more instrucors will weigh in, however from my limted experience and observation, no one instructor had more than 12 students in the water, and they had help to the point the student to DM/Instructor ratio was 1:4 at the most.

As for skills, while your friends may have said they learned more from you then from the class is that really true? Were they able to clear their masks, share air, have knowledge of buoyancy, emergancy ascents, buddy diving, and other basic skills? Did they have basic out and back Nav skills? If that is what you taught them, then certainly, the LDS did a poor job. If not, then IMO they got out of the class what was intended.

It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize training organizations. One also tends to hear a lot of the negatives and few of the positives. IMO the OW certificaion does no make one an experienced diver, but rather provides the foundation for one to become a good diver.

PADI does have class limitations, and if you KNOW for a fact that the LDS these divers certified with had ONE instructor in the water with 26 students, IMO the students should contact PADI and report this as that is a dangerous situation.

No, I was not sitting on the sidelines I went with them for their open water and seen it myself. It was so confusing for them that two of my friends ended up with another LDS class without realizing that they were with the wrong group. They navigated on land not in the water. When I took them out this weekend I showed them how to navigate and allowed each of them to navigate us under water. One was over weighted and was wearing 24lbs. I assisted her to establish the correct weight and she is down to 12lbs and stated that she does not feel like she is struggling to get off the bottom. Their instructor overweighted them all (yes, I seen that also because she (the Instructor) borrowed some of my weights. It does not take an Instructor to teach the basic skills anyone can instruct. It does take an Instructor to build confidence in a student and to spend a little extra time with each of them to ensure that they are effecient in all skill areas. My OW class was excellent my Instructor spent a lot of time with us and taught us many skills some of which were advanced. We were not cattle....They were not even instructed on how to gear up with the assistance of a buddy. I showed them many simple things. I had to adjust their bouyancy under water and show them how to fin properly without using their hands. They were constantly inflating/deflating their BCD's, trying to ascend fast until I grabbed them and slowed them down.
 
mongoose:
Weren't you worried about the potential liability of doing that?

I can just imagine some lawyer:
"Ladies and Gentlement of the jury, when THAT MAN (whirling and pointing to goofystan) assumed the role of instructor to those people, they had no CHOICE to obey him. When my client's 350lb, athsmatic, 14-year-old son dove the Andrea Doria at night at 240' on a single tank clad only in a 2mm shorty, can we REALLY prove that he wasn't taught to do exactly that by the defendant? Can we? (clenching fists and screaming towards heaven) CAN WE?"

Why worry??? The Instructor should have been worried turning them loose with poor training.... I am confident in what I do. So maybe they should have just went on their own after their certification and jumped in????.... People that I hang with are not lawsuit *****s. Assumming the role of an Instructor is much different then being a careful caring diver that is looking out for the welfare of others especially friends. Do we not learn from each other in the diving world? Have you not ever given someone advice? You better be careful if you give the wrong advise you may be sued! (lol) ridiculus. They had a choice to accept my advice or not.. OBEY is not the word to be used. Sorry, I am not one of these divers that has a Big Head with the need to dominate others. You are quite dramatic. By your response given it appears that you have an inferiority complex. You should keep your mind open to learn from the experiences of others....
 
mongoose:
Weren't you worried about the potential liability of doing that?

I can just imagine some lawyer:
"Ladies and Gentlement of the jury, when THAT MAN (whirling and pointing to goofystan) assumed the role of instructor to those people, they had no CHOICE to obey him. When my client's 350lb, athsmatic, 14-year-old son dove the Andrea Doria at night at 240' on a single tank clad only in a 2mm shorty, can we REALLY prove that he wasn't taught to do exactly that by the defendant? Can we? (clenching fists and screaming towards heaven) CAN WE?"

OMG! That is hilarious! ... and sadly... somewhat easy to imagine...

If what you say is true, Goofystan, then those students should report it to PADI, and they should have gone back to that shop and made sure they rec'd the appropriate instruction from a certified/insured instructor. Although, and not to start a huge debate, but IMO I agree with Ron's post- the skills you listed (bouyancy, not using hands) are something that ANY new diver must work on individually after OW class is over.
 
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