dir or not dir

[scuba_guy]

as a person getting into tec diving, i have found 2 ways to go. 1, the DIR way and 2 as DIR puts it the dangerous way. I have talked to some people high up in DIR and have been told that your gear configuation has to be one way only. you need a manifold that uses a static oring system(halcyon) and not a compressed oring system(OMS). I am a person who looks at things from all angles to deside the best way to go. When i heard that about the manifolds i asked if DIR had any reports showing the failure rate of any of the systems that are "dangerous". Thats the last i heard from them. My question is.. has anyone heard of any reports backing up what DIR says?? The way i look at it is.. if using a compressed oring system is bad, then DIR should not allow DIN style fittings since they also use a compressed oring and that oring is more likely to blow out then the oring in the manifold.

[WYDT]

I don't know how much experience you have but from your post it seems as if you have NO idea what you're talking about.... or is this just a lame attempt to start a flame war??

If you just don't know and are really looking for answers get some more experience and try "DIR". Learn what it's really all about (hint: it's not just gear)

If it's merits are not obvious to you now as you progress in your training and skill they should become so.

DSAO!!

[scuba_guy]

thats the same answer i get from all the DIR people.. what i would like is some proof saying there way is the best way. They must have some information backing up what they say???

[LiveGoat]

To read:

"Doing it Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving"
by Jarrod Jablonski

To browse:

www.gue.com
www.wkpp.org
www.northeastdir.com
www.dis-uk.org


There are a ton of other links I can't think of right now, but you'll find them.


---Ray

[JamesK]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
I have talked to some people high up in DIR

SEE! I told you guys that DIR is a hierarchy!!!!


hehehehe;)

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
thats the same answer i get from all the DIR people.. what i would like is some proof saying there way is the best way. They must have some information backing up what they say???
As you say you are "a person who looks at things from all angles to deside[sic] the best way to go."

So do your own homework.

BTW your aversion to getting wet...
And just reading on the net...
Will not get you there...
(Or anywhere)...
So dive it and see what you get...

[scuba_guy]

i have no aversion to getting wet.. i dive 12 months a yr. 3 months being ice diving.. all i want is some material backing up what they preach..i have nothing against DIR i just want something more then people saying "its more then gear configuation" after i am finished with gear then i will move on to other parts of DIR. So far no one has been able to back anything up..sorry

[omar]

The preference for barrel o-rings versus face captured o-rings are for a number of reasons:

The barrel o-ring will allow play in the cross member of the manifold. The reason for this is to allow some give if the manifold strikes a solid object. The reasoning is that the isolator will rotate and absorb some of the impact without breaking off. With a face sealed system you do not have this capability, so the isolator will take the full force of the impact and could break or become offset enough to allow the o-ring to protrude from the face seal.

The barrel o-ring system will allow some play in the distance between a set of doubles. If you don’t think that this is needed than you don’t have any experience putting doubles together.

The barrel o-ring system has 2 o-rings versus 1 o-ring a little more assurance that a o-ring failure will not lead to catastrophic gas loss. I have not had a failure of my barrel o-ring manifolds. I have had a couple regulator o-rings protrude from the face. This has happened on the surface prior to jumping in. It would not take much to have the same thing happen underwater if the manifold is not secured tightly (it can happen, everything loosens up over time) and the tanks or manifold is struck or twisted or torqued.

It comes down to a risk analysis. What is the preferred and safer style. If you do not have a manifold and are planning on buying one than it is a no brainer to me.

Now go do some homework.

omar

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
sorry
Yes...

Anyway... no one owes you an explanation... no one owes you anything... as a skeptic you demand proof... and none is forth coming... you take this as evidence that there is no proof... and it will continue to elude you... many hardened skeptics have done a DIRF and come away believers... (and disbelievers in themselves)... you want proof??? then seek proof... you want to argue behind the guise of inquiry???... forgetaboutit...

[scuba_guy]

omar thank you for your reply. your the first one who has given a reason for going to a hayclon manifold. but being good DIR divers should they be checking there equipment before each dive??? Think i will have to send an email to OMs and see what reports they have had about oring failure in there manifolds.. i'm willing to bet if they have .. its been all due to human error.

and by the way i do do my homework,, as i am now :)

[omar]

I did not say halcyon manifold. I do have one, and a couple of sea elite's and dive rite, just got rid of a thermo (200 bar) and will get another (300 bar). They all have the barrel style.

The human factor can not be over looked or ignored. In my opinion it is the single greatest cause of problems.

omar

[scuba_guy]

now uncle pug isn't that the typical DIR answer... you do it this way... just because DIR says so.. If DIR said you ahve to jump off a 50 ft' cliff doing a giant stride entry.. i think you would be first in line. The more i read about DIR the mor of a cult i think it is.. sorry

[JamesK]

With all due respect, OMS is going to tell you what they want you to hear. They will tell you it is all human error, and even with a double barrel o-ring, you can have human error. However, wouldn't you like to reduce the risk of error? Wouldn't you like to know that if you smack a ceiling of a cave, your manifold has a better chance of not letting go? I know I would.

As for needing to get the halcyon, don't bother. It is too expensive. The SeaElite 300bar manifold is the same thing, even has rubber knobs.

If you want to know why DIR is a better system for most types of cave diving, then the answers are out there. However, such a broad question like the one you ask is very hard to answer. Read up on DIR, and then when you understand the system better, you will be able to answer more specific questions that are easier and shorter to answer.

As for my feelings on DIR, I am not DIR. I dive a DIR style gear configuration, but I have not taken any DIRF training, and I do not conform completely. I am simply a person who sees the benefits of the system.

[scuba_guy]

thanks big james for the answer but with DIR having the CEO of hayclon on board. i won't get a straight answer from them either. hence why i ask questions on here.. to get different peoples opinions. i'm like you, alot of things DIR does makes sence. i'm the type of person who like to know WHY.. One thing that does really tick me of is.. DIR saying if your not DIR your dangerous and no one should dive with you. I know a lot of tec divers who are DIR and alot who arn't and in my eyes they are both equally safe to dive with.

[WYDT]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
now uncle pug isn't that the typical DIR answer... you do it this way... just because DIR says so.. If DIR said you ahve to jump off a 50 ft' cliff doing a giant stride entry.. i think you would be first in line. The more i read about DIR the mor of a cult i think it is.. sorry

Shesh... I thought this was another troll and I was right.... You just want to argue to be arguing.

Go forth and read. There are VOLUMES of info on DIR and your argument has been rehashed a MILLION times. That may be the reason you're getting short answers here.

If you don't like the name "DIR" then don't use that name. None (or at least not much) of the "stuff" in "DIR" was invented by GI3 and/or JJ. They just brought it all together and it works.

Don't knock it until you've tried it. It makes sense. No one is here telling you to dive DIR or don't dive are they?? You brought this up didn't you??? You want an explanation of why DIR works?? Go read all the info. It's out there in volumes!

TRY IT!! That's my final word on the subject (in this thread).

[UncleJT]

Originally posted by WYDT
You want an explanation of why DIR works??
No, what he wants is a Rodales-like review comparing PADI to DIR. :out:

- JT

[scuba_guy]

all comments but no answers.. gear does not make for a safe dive. the diver makes for a safe dive. DIR must be comprized of unsafe divers who need to do things a certain way so they feel safe... Think we better start a DIC club... Diving In Comfort...i'm sure there would be lots of lost souls to join as there was for DIR.

[WYDT]

Ok, I know I said my last word but I went and dug up some trip reports and such from people who've taken the DIR Fundamentals class. Go read all these and tell us what you think afterward. No not all of these people were DIR to begin with...

This is really my last post on the subject! You can lead a horse to water....

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=476324&t=476324

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=496639&t=496639

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=415690&t=415321

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=415321&t=415321

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=383744&t=383744

[scuba_guy]

Thanks WYDT i read what you posted. DIR is for people wo don't already know how to dive safely and must take the Fundamentals Class to refresh them selves.... everydive , first thing i do is mask removel at 10' and air depletion drills. as for bouyancy, but the time you get into tec diving... that should be perfected.. guess not for some.

[WYDT]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
Thanks WYDT i read what you posted. DIR is for people wo don't already know how to dive safely and must take the Fundamentals Class to refresh them selves.... everydive , first thing i do is mask removel at 10' and air depletion drills. as for bouyancy, but the time you get into tec diving... that should be perfected.. guess not for some.

Bait... nahh not takin it!

[scuba_guy]

not ment to be bait at all. where we dive is very extreme diving.
Water temps being from 33F and up. Warm water dive for us is 50F. We have to make sure we are diving safely and our gear is working properly as we have a few more things to be concerned about.

[JamesK]

At first I honestly thought you might want to know about DIR. that has since changed. I now know that you simply want to come here to try to argue against DIR, and try to trash those who choose to adopt those principles.

[scuba_guy]

big james if you look back you will see that i came on here asking questions that i could not find answers for. people started trashing me first for asking such questions. It was not me who started it. i have had a couple people give me some of the answers i was looking for, as for the rest i honestly do feel they have been brainwashed by the DIR way. Everything that was sent to me to read, i did. Being of sound mind i can form this opinion. I will try everything and us what works best for me, be it the DIR way or a combination of all ways. I know if something happens.. its not how your gear is configured that matters. its what in your head..

[Rick Murchison]

My, my, my... don't we all get emotional?
The original question may have contained bait, and most took it!
Omar, the cool head, extracted the diving question and answered it well, and didn't appeal to "DIR" once in his answer. Now that's the way to defend a position.
BZ Omar!
As for me, I buy the barrel o-ring manifold, for the reasons Omar stated.
Rick :)

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
I know if something happens.. its not how your gear is configured that matters. its what in your head..
Yeah, sure...
As a self proclaimed "person getting into tec[sic] diving" you would know all about it.

Well then configure however you wish... since it doesn't matter.

~~~~~~~~~~
I know, I know.... I said, "don't feed the trolls"....
Shoot, it's hard not to...
they're so... cute.... when they pontificate...
~~~~~~~~~~

If you really want answers lose the chip on your shoulder... it is a huge snag hazzard... and a part of your configuration that needs to change before you can make further progress...

[UncleJT]

A wise man told me recently, "Do not feed the trolls". ;)

- JT

[Iguana Don]

You should do some technical diving before asking technical questions. Then you could understand the answers that have been put before you.

You can't condemn somebody's shoes until you've walked in them.

If you asked about the affect of thermodynamics on the skin of an airplane, you would first have to know about airplanes.

JMHO

ID

[scuba_guy]

well you know some people like to ask questions before they make some major purchases. and then some people just buy what they are told to buy.
and to think i havn't even asked about which stage bottles to get catalina's or luxfer's. I'm sure when i ask about those i will get some brainwashed comments also. :)

[omar]

oh brother....

You sure are full of it. I suggest that you get some training and experience because it takes a fair amount before you would need stages. While you are getting the experience use both and you will find out the answer.

omar

[scuba_guy]

omar i already know the answer.. if you go DIR then it has to be luxfer, but blind folded no one can tell the difference..:)

[Divesherpa]

You know Scuba Guy, I'm not DIR because I like to dive alone, as well as other reasons I will not name at this point.
As for arguing for or against DIR, you have to have practical knowledge of the protocols and gear before you can really have an opinion or you are just talking out of your a*%. DIR is preached as an all or nothing approach, but from an individual perspective, take what you can from it. It's an excellent starting point. After learning the system, improve on it and stray from it. Make it better. Don't just knock it (or those who practice it) with knowing what you are talking about. That adds fuel to the fire.

By the way, the carnivores you were thrown in with are starting to sound like GI3.

Ha, Ha


Just kidding.

[NetDoc]

you posed a simple query...


My question is.. has anyone heard of any reports backing up what DIR says??

So far, you have been labeled as...
"Having no idea..."
"Trying to start a flame war..."
One who "should do your own homework..."
"Having an aversion to getting wet..."
"A skeptic"
"A troll"
"A horse led to water..."
"A baiter"
"Pontificating with a big chip on your shoulder that is a snag hazard..."
And, being "full of it"!

While the theory for your question has been revealed (and quite nicely too), I don't think anyone here has any reports to back up that theory. If they do, they aren't very forthcoming with it. They have lots of theory, a great diving record, but are kinda shy on hard facts.

At least I am not the ONLY ONE to be attacked in such a manner, and for that I should be thankful. So ask your questions, be open minded as I once was, and be prepared for the jihad that comes when some think that their way of diving is being questioned. You can claim your innocence all you want, but they will not believe you. So back out, you are not welcome here either, and let them play by themselves. We have the rest of the board to roam through! Yes it sucks, but that is reality for you!

[WYDT]

Hi Netdoc...

I think the main problem here is that this person is in my (and obviously others) opinion not trying to have a "discussion". He's trying to fan flames.

You said...

I don't think anyone here has any reports to back up that theory. If they do, they aren't very forthcoming with it. They have lots of theory, a great diving record, but are kinda shy on hard facts.


DIR is not theory. You want hard facts??? What about world records in cave diving?? What about a perfect safety record for the wkpp since "DIR" was implemented by GI3?? What about 400+ft dives on the Brittanic? Cold water.. What about SCRET?? I could go on and on... Is that what he/you want?? Proof?? It's there for those who care to open their eyes.

The guys that invented this stuff do dives that most of us could only dream of and their methods and reasons have been explained ad nauseum here and in many other forums and sites.

So for some person to come here and question it without even knowing what it is might set us off a bit and I believe that was the original intention in the first place anyway.

No one is saying that if you don't dive DIR you will die. It does however in my opinion give you a better chance to live when the S___T hits the fan and I've NEVER heard of anyone who tried it that didn't agree that it was the best way to dive backmount. Hence the reason for posting all those links I did about the DIR fundamentals classes. BTW: Those were FUNDAMENTALS classes not TECH classes.

All we are saying is to try it or at least know a little about what he's talking about first.

He wants answers??? The answers have been out there for years.

[Jarhead]

There were these two preachers standing by the side of the road holding a sign. Written on the sign were the words "The End is Near". They noticed a rapidly approaching car and held up their sign so it could be read. The people in the car hurled insults and obsene gestures at the two men as they passed. After the car sped on around a curve, there were screams and a violent crash. One of the preachers turned to the other and said, "I told you we should and just printed Bridge Out on that sign".

That story has a lot in common with this thread (and the whole DIR/nonDIR situation).

I am not DIR.
DIR has alot to offer the diving community as a whole.
DIR is often not presented very well.

Jarhead

[omar]

So petey,

I see that you're back from licking your self inflicted wounds and stirring the pot again. I think that you need to give it a rest as well.

omar

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
My, my, my... don't we all get emotional?
The original question may have contained bait, and most took it!
Omar, the cool head, extracted the diving question and answered it well, and didn't appeal to "DIR" once in his answer. Now that's the way to defend a position.
BZ Omar!
As for me, I buy the barrel o-ring manifold, for the reasons Omar stated.
Rick :)

I don't buy the "barrel O-ring" vs surface o-ring..

The Diverite, halycon and similiar manifolds that use the double barrel o-rings need the 2 orings, the isolator bar is not that hefty and the surface area of the orings is not that great.. Barrel o-rings are fine, I'd just rather not use them in a stress point if I could avoid it.

Captured O-rings like that used by OMS, have a much larger surface sealing area, and their isolator is very hefty, it can probably take more abuse than the others (Most people who use doubles know better than to carry the tank by the isolator, but you have to worry about others moving your eqpt this way).. If you are so against surface sealing captured o-rings what kind or reg are you using?? the method used by oms is the same that is used by your typical din reg...

I have both types of manifolds, I have had on of my DR one damaged by some idiot, the OMS one suffered no ill effects from the same person. Both designs work fine, I just feel the barrel type needs a better set of bands and more care when transporting..

[omar]

There are two typical o-ring seal designs, axial or radial. Axial is the OMS type, radial is the barrel type. O-Rings perform their sealing action by deforming to take the shape of the groove that they sit in and the sealing area is a function of the cross section diameter and the size of the groove, not surface area.

For the axial type you need to ensure that the o-ring will stay in the groove and will not fall out or twist in some unpredictable manner during assembly. In addition, the o-ring must be compressed by a predetermined amount.
This compression determines the o-ring cross-section diameter and is one of the design criteria. For this to work correctly every time the face seal must be compressed the right amount. How many people are aware of this that use the axial type manifold?

As I mentioned I use DIN regs which have the axial o-ring. I have had the o-ring protrude a couple of times when the reg was not securely screwed down. You see this also with the yoke type valves as well. Because of this I would not use this type of system in a manifold when I have a choice.

The assembly problems are much less with the radial design because it is addressed during the design of the o-ring groove and the diameters and variation (tolerance) of the parts. Try taking one of the o-rings off of the barrel style - It will still work. It does not need 2 to function.

omar

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by omar
There are two typical o-ring seal designs, axial or radial. Axial is the OMS type, radial is the barrel type. O-Rings perform their sealing action by deforming to take the shape of the groove that they sit in and the sealing area is a function of the cross section diameter and the size of the groove, not surface area.

For the axial type you need to ensure that the o-ring will stay in the groove and will not fall out or twist in some unpredictable manner during assembly. In addition, the o-ring must be compressed by a predetermined amount.
This compression determines the o-ring cross-section diameter and is one of the design criteria. For this to work correctly every time the face seal must be compressed the right amount. How many people are aware of this that use the axial type manifold?

As I mentioned I use DIN regs which have the axial o-ring. I have had the o-ring protrude a couple of times when the reg was not securely screwed down. You see this also with the yoke type valves as well. Because of this I would not use this type of system in a manifold when I have a choice.

The assembly problems are much less with the radial design because it is addressed during the design of the o-ring groove and the diameters and variation (tolerance) of the parts. Try taking one of the o-rings off of the barrel style - It will still work. It does not need 2 to function.

omar

I agree the barrel style only requires 1 but due to the flex in some of those manifolds and variations in assembly the second is a good idea, not to mention the possibility of extrusion.. I don't see the captured Oring during assembly as a problem, you only assemble your units once a year for inspection or if you need to reclean them, just use a torque wrench and get it right everytime... If you have the right bands for your cylinders there is no need to have the placement of the isolator adjustable. The oms manifold uses a pretty large Oring that has reasonable tolerances. If there was a manifold (with barrel style) that the isolator was heavier in design than the current ones I would jump on it in a heartbeat.. I'm looking at the overall picture, the barrel style may be a more flexible and forgiving seal but the isolator on those current systems is pretty cheesy,so what you gain on one side you lose on the other because its just not as durabble. if you put that on the size isolator that OMS has that would be something.
Each manifold does have its plusses, ther is no perfect one yet..

[WYDT]

Originally posted by padiscubapro

I'm looking at the overall picture, the barrel style may be a more flexible and forgiving seal but the isolator on those current systems is pretty cheesy,so what you gain on one side you lose on the other because its just not as durabble. if you put that on the size isolator that OMS has that would be something.
Each manifold does have its plusses, ther is no perfect one yet..

Have you checked out the Divers Supply/Halcyon/Dive Rite manifolds (they're all the same)? They are pretty heafty and at least as heafty or more so than any OMS I've ever seen.

I have two of the Divers Supply manifolds I've been very happy with. Never had a moments problem on either one. I recently sold a Genesis manifold that was more "cheesy" as you say in it's isolator construction.... that and I hated the angled valves!!

DSAO!!

[padiscubapro]

Yes, I have one thats from diverite and one from divers supply, The OMS rig is definately more substantial. I also have an old sherwood (about 14 years old without any failures - and I hit the isolator once when using a scooter (open throtttle)when I misjudged an overhang)its also uses a face oring) and a genesis manifold.. in total I have 6 sets of doubles... 95s and 104s

[jbd]

DIR or not DIR; in the end I learned alot about o-ring seals and manifolds.

I also liked Jarheads little story about the end of the world. Much wisdom there for all of us.

[KVDIVR]

Hmm

Not sure I want to get involved in this one but here goes.

While I understand your point on the barrel style manifold being able to roll, I do hope you realize it is the most dangerous as far a an o-ring being able to extrude from the barrel under high pressure. The OMS has a captured o-ring (as does a 300 BAR DIN) and cannot extrude.
Next is the original DIN manifold that was sold by Sherwood that was designed by a company that specialized in high pressure equipment. That manifold is really the only true high pressure manifold by design ever made.

Now, I own and dive, all 3 styles of manifolds and have never had a problem with any of them. I Ice dive, Wreck dive and Cave dive.
Special note: I only use Highland tank bands. There are no bands better made. Even Extreme Exposure sells them.

As far as the manifold being able to roll if you hit something hard I.E. scootering!!
?? You should not be hitting anything that hard! If an area is that small you should not be going that fast to begin with.

Later

Kvdivr

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by KVDIVR
Hmm

Not sure I want to get involved in this one but here goes.

While I understand your point on the barrel style manifold being able to roll, I do hope you realize it is the most dangerous as far a an o-ring being able to extrude from the barrel under high pressure. The OMS has a captured o-ring (as does a 300 BAR DIN) and cannot extrude.
Next is the original DIN manifold that was sold by Sherwood that was designed by a company that specialized in high pressure equipment. That manifold is really the only true high pressure manifold by design ever made.

Now, I own and dive, all 3 styles of manifolds and have never had a problem with any of them. I Ice dive, Wreck dive and Cave dive.
Special note: I only use Highland tank bands. There are no bands better made. Even Extreme Exposure sells them.

As far as the manifold being able to roll if you hit something hard I.E. scootering!!
?? You should not be hitting anything that hard! If an area is that small you should not be going that fast to begin with.

Later

Kvdivr
It really wasn't that tight an area I was slightly distracted and just misjudged how close I was. That was many years ago when I really didn't have that much experience using scooters... Now whenever I'm near anything I don't take my eyes off my direction of travel...

[NetDoc]

Just patiently waiting for someone to answer the man's original question... And noting what the responses were to that question. Were the wounds self inflicted??? You would say yes, and I would disagree. However, you would probably say that Scuba_guy inflicted his own wounds by having the temerity to ask a simple question that you have provided no answers for... only a theory and LOTS of invective.

It's like the lightbulb joke...

How many of youse guys does it take to answer a simple question... It's either

1) Yes, we have data! Here it is...

or

2) No, we don't have data! But we still believe in omar's theory.

So, don't get your panties in a wad with more name calling, just answer the question. I would be happy with either answer. Or would you just prefer that I leave?



Originally posted by omar
So petey,

I see that you're back from licking your self inflicted wounds and stirring the pot again. I think that you need to give it a rest as well.

omar

[scuba_guy]

my question was answered. i will go with the barrel type manifold. i wish DIR would have talked about the "why's" for using certain gear... or if they do i never found it.

[caverkevin]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
i wish DIR would have talked about the "why's" for using certain gear... or if they do i never found it.

Sign up for the DIRquest list and read the archives. You should find a lot of "why's" in the different postings in the archives. If you don't find it, ask george. He should tell you....

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
my question was answered. i will go with the barrel type manifold. i wish DIR would have talked about the "why's" for using certain gear... or if they do i never found it.
scuba_guy...
Congratulations on persevering...

I have invested physical, mental and emotional capital far beyond mere $$$ to push through with my GUE tech training... it hasn't been easy... and the answers to the questions didn't come easy either. Somethings you just have to see things in action to understand.

Even today I learned the reason why such and such had to be so and so.

If you can find one... (and more are coming all the time)... take a DIRF... even if you have to travel to do it.

[scuba_guy]

i've looked at dirquest. and sorry but i'm not about to pay to chat, ask questions, or look up things. i don't think people who are getting into diving or expanding there skills should have to pay to find out about things. As an instructor i would not want to have to charge students if they had a question to ask me.
As for the DIRF course, honestly unless i see someone who has taken it and see that they are a better diver then me,.. well i'll have to wait. From wreck diving and underwater photography. my bouyancy skills seem to be pretty good. Mask skills.. where we dive the water temp is 40-50F where we teach classes. With that temp you get good at doing them right the first time.

[omar]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
Mask skills.. where we dive the water temp is 40-50F where we teach classes. With that temp you get good at doing them right the first time.
This makes no sense. I dive in 38 degF every week and we practice mask skills at least once every weekend. Just because the water is cool is no excuse not practice this skill.

In fact, I have noticed that the colder the water, the greater the upset to buoyancy, breathing rate, and comfort level when doing a mask drill. The more experience with this the better one is able to deal with it if it happens unexpectedly.

omar

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
i don't think people who are getting into diving or expanding there skills should have to pay to find out about things.
Oh...
OK.

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by scuba_guy

As for the DIRF course, honestly unless i see someone who has taken it and see that they are a better diver then me,.. well i'll have to wait.

When you're the best, then you're the best. No question about it.

[DNAXdiver]

You sure about that? Seal Elite adn Halcyon are the same manifold, but DR has sold them by several manufactures over the years and I thought they were selling the Thermos now.

BTW my experience has always been that the OMS manifolds are much fussier about bands and should really only be used with OMS bands (though probably Highlands are OK too). I've uses Scubapro and Sea Elite manifolds with all kinds of bands, homemade included, without any problem.

Oh and until a few years ago the center sections on most isolators manifolds were too narrow to allow full engagement with big tanks so on most doubles only one O-ring was engaged on the Sea Elite style manifolds.




Originally posted by WYDT


Have you checked out the Divers Supply/Halcyon/Dive Rite manifolds (they're all the same)? They are pretty heafty and at least as heafty or more so than any OMS I've ever seen.

DSAO!!

[Lost Yooper]

The Fundementals book describes the why of most of the aspects of DIR pretty good. There's nothing wrong with being skeptical with anything. Every part of DIR has a well thought out reason behind it which is important to it's whole. It's the completeness of it all that makes it unique and successfull.

Mike

[scuba_guy]

and what is DIR's first rule??? if your not DIR then your dangerous and no one shold dive with you!!! i think they went a bit over board with that...

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
and what is DIR's first rule??? if your not DIR then your dangerous and no one shold dive with you!!! i think they went a bit over board with that...
{Gotta remember... decent folk listening in trying to learn...}

Hi there scuba_guy,
DIRs rule number one... is not as you paraphrased it... actually that wasn't even a paraphrase... that was just plain ole twisting the words of others to try and make a point....

Rule number one is DON'T DIVE WITH STROKES... i.e. dives who are unsafe in their gear, training, attitude, preparation ect.

A legitimate paraphrase would be: DON'T DIVE WITH UNSAFE DIVERS... they are dangerous to themselves and to you...

Of course the original premise was for the extremes of cave and then technical diving... but it is applicable to all diving.

When I take non-GUE trained folks out for a dive it is always well within the parameters of their abilities... there are few non-GUE trained divers that I would dive with >60 fsw... very few. I owe it to myself and my family to only dive with safe divers, competent divers... divers who I can count on not to kill themselves or me.

My wife just finished reading the Last Dive and she has been worrying about me the whole time... I explained the difference between the way we dive and what she was reading about in the book... she is a non-diver but could understand the difference and feels at ease now. I owe it to her to dive with safe divers.

[scuba_guy]

so what is a stroke?? Someone who is not DIR right??

To quote Bill Gavin regarding gear, a diver must "settle for nothing
less than perfection. Those who do will discover on their own the value
of such effort. Those who do not will never understand what the others
are talking about". What we have presented here is called the "Doing It
Right" system, and is a platform that is integrated completely and
accommodates all contingencies and additions, but no phobias. Use it
accordingly with one caveat - "never break Rule Number One", which is
"Don't dive with strokes". A "stroke" is somebody with an unsafe
attitude.
They say all strokes are unsafe?? I have to strongly disagree!!

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
"Don't dive with strokes". A "stroke" is somebody with an unsafe attitude.

They say all strokes are unsafe?? I have to strongly disagree!!
Of course you do.... it is.... well.... only natural that you would.

They say *a stroke is somebody with an unsafe attitude.*

You morph that to *they say all strokes are unsafe.*

And then you *have to strongly disagree!!*

But then you never give us the rest.

No reasons for disagreeing.

Only *I disagree*.

Thank you for sharing this insight into your thought processes.

[scuba_guy]

so would you dive with a stroke?

[Bob3]

... the colder the water, the greater the upset ... when doing a mask drill.

Good point there, Omar. I like to get my face in the ice water before even putting the mask on, sorta "gets you ready". Losing a mask in frosty water will impair your breathing for at least a moment or two, affects some folks much more severely.

[WYDT]

UP...

2 rules...

#1 Don't dive with Strokes
#2 Don't feed trolls. ;)

This is rediculous... you might as well argue with the wall. This guy is dead set that DIR is evil/bad/unbending/wants to assimilate him/etc/etc...

He doesn't even know enough to formulate a decent defense of his ideas.

scuba_guy: Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth! You don't have a clue what DIR is and apparently have no desire to find out.... that or you're just a troll as I said in the beginning.

DSAO!!

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
so would you dive with a stroke?
Well if you make the trip I'll take you to Edmonds UWP.

[scuba_guy]

When that DIRF course comes up here i will have to pay close attention to it. Just to see how they manage to brain wash you people.. Some DIR divers may be good divers but the other 105% of you only think you good in your own mind.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by WYDT
UP...
#2 Don't feed trolls. ;)

Now that is funny... I sent the same message to you last week in a PM but I pulled it before you got it because I ended up back under the bridge feeing the troll some more myself... :D

They're so cute when their head spins....

[WYDT]

Haha!! That is funny!

I wondered what that cancelled message was about.

Dive Safe, Dive Often.... oh and no more troll feeding!! ;)

[scuba_guy]

uncle pug is that an XTC100 computer your wearing?

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by WYDT
I wondered what that cancelled message was about.

Several pages back... I sent the same *don't feed the Troll* to JT too but he picked it up before I could pull it... and of course he caught me back here feeding the troll myself...

ooohhhh nooooo --- here I goooo againnnnnnn.......

[scuba_guy]

Edmonds UWP thats where you do your tec diving??? how deep is it there?? something like 40'? lol dive hard dive long...

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
uncle pug is that an XTC100 computer your wearing?
Good eye....

No...


That is an Aeris Savant... same thing... it lived in permanent gauge mode... large numerals and very easy to read... but it needed a watch attached to the band to time stops so I sold it and bought a Suunto Stinger... it lives in permanent gauge mode too.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
Edmonds UWP thats where you do your tec diving??? how deep is it there?? something like 40'? lol dive hard dive long...
No... that's just where I'd be willing to take you... and only on low tide.

[Airhog]

What is a stroke? Definition-Scuba Guy

I will ignore the fact you are Canadian, as that explains most of it.

My suggestion to you is to take a giant stride carrying about 30 pounds more weight than you actually need and forget to turn your air on. On second thought, don't, as Darwin was right and sooner or later, diving the way you do (STROKE) you will weed yourself out.

Are all strokes unsafe divers? Well, I guess that depends on what type of environment you are in. Stroke is also a mindset. Specifically the "I won't change a thing ,it's not broken-why fix it, I haven't died yet." Mentality. So tell me Stoke_Guy, PADI or NAUI? My guess is you are not cut out for Tech diving, either mentally or physically.

Diving in Comfort? Yeah --- go right ahead......When was the last time you were in a backplate and harness, squared away by someone who knows how to square you away and jumped in to a 130 foot or so?

You are as much of an idiot as the guy in the other post who stated that enjoyed the feeling of a full(air) bladder in a jacket style BC compressing his ribs, as it gave him security. Are you guys dive buddies?


George Irvine III coined a phrase often in response to strokes and the phrase fits you perfectly:

"Farm Animal Stupid"--TROLL!!!!

[scuba_guy]

low tide.... hmmm may not need 104's then maybe 85's since it won't be as deep.... why did you waste good money on a stinger??? vipers are cheaper and have larger numbers... I've been asked to test out the new vytec it looks pretty nice...except for the hoseless air ****.....

[scuba_guy]

airhog... nick nic...lol come on up to Canada and we can hit the west coast for a couple dives.. see how us Canadians perform...if you dare

[scuba_guy]

airhog, are you a warm water diver??? this just gets better and better

[Airhog]

When I go to Canada, it is to enjoy good cigars and to have my way with your women.

I dive in any coniditons, from ice cold lakes and quarries to the warm water stuff.

What's wrong Stroke_Guy? Got shrinkage? or just envy of the long hose?

[Airhog]

By the way, I have HEARD how you guys perform.......

[scuba_guy]

airhog.. whats ice cold to you?? 50F try diving under a couple feet of ice.. or do you not know how to use a dry suit?

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
why did you waste good money on a stinger??? vipers are cheaper and have larger numbers...
Vypers don't have the count up timer in the middle while in gauge mode... and $300 wasn't bad... though it was good money... (US dollars)

[Airhog]

I go with a 3 mil to about 130 feet/40 degrees which ever comes first. From there depending on thermos or other conditions, I can go with 5/7 mil to usually to about 30 degrees. If it is colder than , yes I have the option of going to the OS systems Nautilus.




Any other questions? Stroke?

So tell me PADI? or NAUI?

Put Another Dollar In or Need Another Underwater Instructor?

[scuba_guy]

PADI instructor with a few TDI certs thrown in.. 3mm 130/40F eh... OK Please tell me about you make my day

[Airhog]

Who me? Ah hell, i'm not even certified....I just know how to dive, been doing it fer years.....Down here in the south Daddy just teaches us youngins' when we old enough to drive ol betsy down to the pond.....Straps the ol horse collar around our gullets and fetchs us in the drink.....


The above is a joke in case you missed...You know, eh?


So is 40 in a 3 cold enough for ya?

I am certified with one of the small memebers of the alphabet soup with a TDI Nitrox and Advanced Nitrox...Until September than I am taking the DIR-F(made arrangements yesterday for an August class out west--who knows maybe I'll look ya up) and hopefully by the middle of September(work travel permiting) I will also have caught the Tech 1 class.

So tell PADI Instructor, how does is feel to be a bellwether?

[scuba_guy]

gee i'm sorry but we dive for extended periods of time and honestly.. i like to be warm.

bellwether must be some southern thing????

[Airhog]

What are you impling about diving extended periods of time?



Bellwether--You should look it up.........

[scuba_guy]

well since you have your advance nitrox... you must do some pretty long dives....

[Airhog]

Also known as PADI Instructor


Castrated Male sheep, Ram. Usually wears bell around neck so the rest of the flock can follow. Often used as a derogatory term. To call someone a bellwether is to imply that it does not take someone very smart to be a leader of sheep. buffoon.

Nothing personal.....of course......

[scuba_guy]

airhog i pose your going to get your deco procedures next, then maybe extended range... then after that you can get into the PADI tec-rec program..

[Airhog]

Actually I always envisioned my first PADI specialty being underwater basketweaving.


I actually have to go to work right now, so it will be this afternoon before I rag on you again. But I will be back.......


Baaaa Baaaa

[landlocked]

:boxing:

Um... The kids are at it again. Anyone want to call their parents?

:nono:

[Friggincold]

Now that's one class I'd like to watch:D With the hogs references to barnyard animals he must spend alot of time there:out:

[scuba_guy]

lol good one friggencold..:) think it must be a DIR thing

[Bob3]

Daddy just teaches us youngins' when we old enough ... and fetchs us in the drink.....

Hey, that's how I taught my kids to dive, they were 5 & 7 at the time. Gave 'em a tank & stuffed 'em in the mud under the dock to watch the fish. Better'n a TV set.

[Uncle Pug]

... let the little sock puppets have at one another....
They only have one head between them and it is entertaining to watch. :D

[Ontario Diver]

I'm Canadian....

I'm ex-military.....

I'm learning to dive but I don't bash PADI, GUE, DIR, or much else...

Since you've managed to insult many things that are important to me - would you like to insult my kids at the same time just to tie it all together?

[Airhog]

Ours or the one up north with 6 planes, 4 tanks, 3 boats and 15,772 people?

[Airhog]

Sock puppets? Hey watch where you put that hand......

Kids..... I refuse to grow up, I'm PADI 'r us kid.......


Hey what fun is board without a little debate :)?


And actually, let me go on record as saying that I really do like the great white north. and my Canadian friends, who I have a handful of, give it back to me as good as I give it to them.... So please do not take the Canadian thing personal.

Besides no one else would let you live next door........

[Airhog]

Originally posted by Ontario Diver
I'm Canadian....

I'm ex-military.....

I'm learning to dive but I don't bash PADI, GUE, DIR, or much else...

Since you've managed to insult many things that are important to me - would you like to insult my kids at the same time just to tie it all together?

I agree it is the best beer in the world...I was weaned on Labatts Blue and still the only beer I will drink.....

[scuba_guy]

airhog your back!!!!!!!

[Airhog]

Originally posted by Ontario Diver
I'm Canadian....

I'm ex-military.....

I'm learning to dive but I don't bash PADI, GUE, DIR, or much else...

Since you've managed to insult many things that are important to me - would you like to insult my kids at the same time just to tie it all together?

When did I bash the military? I do not think I did and if I did, I in no way whatsoever intended to bash the United States Armed Forces.............

I believe my only military post, before my jab at the Canadians, was when I cited a military report on Force Fins on another thread......

So if I did, I am sorry. If you mis-read something, you F'ed up, read more carefully..........

[scuba_guy]

WHAT IS A STROKE ?
(written by George Irvine)


Very simply put, a "stroke" is somebody you don't want to dive with. It is somebody who will cause you problems, or not be any use to you if you have problems. Usually, this is a reflection of the attitude of a stroke, but that can be inherent in the personality of the individual, or others can teach it.

Diving is not an intuitive thing. It is not a natural thing. Natural reactions of human beings on dry land do not work underwater. To be a good diver, you have to control your natural responses, and know that they can only hurt you, not help you. A stroke cannot do that. A stroke is driven by fear, ego, and self-concern.

[Airhog]

Originally posted by scuba_guy
WHAT IS A STROKE ?
(written by George Irvine)


Very simply put, a "stroke" is somebody you don't want to dive with. It is somebody who will cause you problems, or not be any use to you if you have problems. Usually, this is a reflection of the attitude of a stroke, but that can be inherent in the personality of the individual, or others can teach it.

Diving is not an intuitive thing. It is not a natural thing. Natural reactions of human beings on dry land do not work underwater. To be a good diver, you have to control your natural responses, and know that they can only hurt you, not help you. A stroke cannot do that. A stroke is driven by fear, ego, and self-concern.


If you are going to preach the gospel, preach it complete.....

http://www.pina.us/dive/stroke.htm

[Iguana Don]

This thread has disintegrated into something like you would see on "Techdiver."

It is now time to come back to reality and act like human beings.

If things continue on their present course, I will have no choice but to edit the posts.

Thanks

Don

[Iguana Don]

See what I mean.

[Airhog]

Originally posted by Iguana Don
See what I mean.

Yep. I understand.



but you said edit...not delete. Sorry for allowing the disintegration of the topic.......



Dang censorship...........

[Uncle Pug]

The lizzard zaps another bug!!
:out:

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Iguana Don
See what I mean.

I'm sorry. ;-0 My post that you deleted was meant as a joke. I guess some did not take it that way.

[Iguana Don]

Discussions about technical topics and stop the hammering and slandering of DIR & Anti DIR members.

[Campana]

Originally posted by Bob3


Hey, that's how I taught my kids to dive, they were 5 & 7 at the time. Gave 'em a tank & stuffed 'em in the mud under the dock to watch the fish. Better'n a TV set.

How're Bobn'Ed? They're some good boys. Good thing it's better'n TV, cause I've seen TV in their part of the country.

Email me the price of one o' those nifty Northern Diver Suits like Brock got. Can I get my initials on it, or is that extra?

[reefraff]

Originally posted by Iguana Don
This thread has disintegrated into something like you would see on "Techdiver."

It is now time to come back to reality and act like human beings.

If things continue on their present course, I will have no choice but to edit the posts.

Thanks

Don

[Divesherpa]

Is the issue DIR/anti-DIR, or DIR/non-DIR-compliant?

[devilfish]

I see a brick flying.
Amazing how one question WHY? can flare up to a defensive argument. I guess in the times of weekend wonders, video and internet courses, dive instruction turned toward "thou shall" without the why's. I found that if people don't know the why, they also don't appreciate the importance and in time they drop it from their practice. Why we do what we do is the most important factor of being safe and maintaining the practice or technique, whatever it may be.
scuba_guy, keep asking "WHY" and don't take things as gospel just because someone said so. It will make you a much better and safer diver. The task you have is finding the people that can answer.