Oxygen, is it really all that important?

[baitedstorm]

I'm just curious as to how many people feel it's important for a dive charter boat to carry oxygen on board for your trip? Do you assume it's on board or do you ask if it is? If you found out the boat didn't have it, would that influence your decision to use that particular boat?

[pasley]

You tell me. On a recent boat trip I was on the dive was to 84 feet square profile. A few minutes after I got back onto the boat a diver surfaced took off his gear, posed for pictures and about 10 minutes later, was paralyzed from the waist down. O2 administered immediately and the boat started back to shore. By the time he got to the hospital, he was able to move again and walked out of the hospital a few hours later with out a chamber ride (that I do not understand). So you tell me, is O2 on the boat important. I think so.

I would say it is critical and not a small bottle either.

[ScubaTexan]

As both a DAN O2 provider and a PADI O2 provider, it is VERY important to me! Heaven forbid anyone be left in that situation, it could save someone's life...

[BigJetDriver]

Melvin is ABSOLUTELY right. Almost any diving emergency will be helped with the use of oxygen, and in the rest of the cases, it will do no harm (unless, of course, you are below 20 fsw).

In ANY case of DCS, or even SUSPECTED case of DCS, begin oxygen therapy IMMEDIATELY.

[reefraff]

If you're diving somewhere that doesn't have O2, bring your own. Every boat should have a supply sufficient to administer to at least two divers (remember, if one diver needs it, his buddy probably will, also) from the furthest point from the harbor that they run.

[scottyroz]

I'm just curious as to how many people feel it's important for a dive charter boat to carry oxygen on board for your trip? Do you assume it's on board or do you ask if it is? If you found out the boat didn't have it, would that influence your decision to use that particular boat?
Beyond important to have oxygen on a boat. I do not assume anything when it comes to the safety of myself or any of my dive buddies. I will ask to ensure that it is on the boat. Yes it would influence my decision. Chances are i would not use the boat or if i liked the operation enough i would have it arranged so that I would bring my own or have someone else bring it aboard. Oxygen should be like amex dont leave home without it ;) ....

[mello-yellow]

Short answer -- yes. Moreover, if I were diving far from shore (as in "international waters") I would want the boat to have a tank and reg set up with oxygen (or nitrox-80) for in-water recompression. And no, I would not want to go down to 20' with paralyzed legs, but if I had mild (Type I DCS) symptoms, I'd want to get oxygen under pressure if at all possible. Lest they become Type II symptoms.

BTW, I laughed out loud when I saw the thread title. My first thought was "Well, you can TRY to live without it for a while..." :05:

[Li'l38]

I'm just curious as to how many people feel it's important for a dive charter boat to carry oxygen on board for your trip? Do you assume it's on board or do you ask if it is? If you found out the boat didn't have it, would that influence your decision to use that particular boat?Whoa, my bad for assuming (without asking) :11: that commercial charters would be required to have it. I guess the requirement doesn't really mean it's there either. I learn something new everytime I get on SB! (That means I'm gettin' smarter everyday, right??!) :D

[baitedstorm]

Word to the wise Lil, ask to SEE the bottle and be shown that it is full. You'd be surprised if you only knew how often there isn't any on the vessel.

[Bill51]

I said somewhat, but that needs to be clarified. I expect any charter boat going more than 5-10 minutes off shore and or diving in more than 40’ of water to have O2 aboard. I’ve been many places where we take a little skiff out 3 or 4 minutes off shore in 30’ of water and I find the risk of not having O2 aboard tolerable – yes I know you might need O2 after a 30’ dive, but not nearly as likely as an 80’ dive.

[rab]

I've got my own O2 cylinder for diving emergencies. I hope that I never have to use it myself, but I've taken it to group dives just in case.

-Rob

[String]

O2 is utterly essential where diving is going on, not just for deeper diving but even shallower dives where decompression injury is still an issue (breath holding etc). Id say its essential for a charter boat to provide the kit (although not neccesarily required to be able to administer it - thats the job of the divers). Id be wary of even a private or club boat dive without an O2 kit. Its not uncommon for us to take our own even if the boat we're going on has a set.

[dsaxe01]

I think the answers to this question are going to differ in terms of training, knowledge of the advantages of O2, and expierence diving. Before I became DAN O2, i didnt really care about it, and i think that training is the only way for people to care...

[DaFireMedic]

Years ago I dove in La Paz, 100+ foot dives, 20+ miles (2 hour boat trip) out in a small skiff with no emergency O2. I didn't realize the importance of it then as I was still a fairly new diver and the DAN O2 education stuff was fairly new as well. As fun as it was, I would not dive under the same circumstances again. Even though everything went fine, I still chalk it up to a lesson learned. If there had been a DCS hit, we'd have been screwed.

I feel it is important enough that I have assembled my own O2 kit and I have taught my buddy how to use it. I bring it with me, often on local boat dives that already have O2.

[Roz Amos]

I was a 4, because I'd never had a problem (and in Aus standards tend to be high about this type of thing), but after an incident recently on a shore dive overseas where my buddy collapsed paralysed on the way out from a deep dive and we discovered the local op did not have any oxygen on site, now I want to see the bottle AND be convinced that someone there knows how to use it before I will get in the water.

How many of you have it available when shore diving?

[String]

Not a problem for me - i absolutely HATE shore diving and try to ever avoid having to do one.

If i did though the club o2 kit would come in the car.

[MB]

...how many people feel it's important for a dive charter boat to carry oxygen on board for your trip? ... would that influence your decision to use that particular boat?
Yup. Even with private boats, I'm reluctant to go without O2, although I'm willing to bring my own kit for them. As for charters, info about their O2 should be part of the briefing, and having O2 aboard and in working order is as important as having life preservers and running lights. If I discovered that a charter operation was not carrying O2, or had a non-working kit or empty bottle, my opinion of the operation would be very sour. A very popular operation in Pompano seldom gets my business because of their lackadasical O2 maintenance, and another one in Hollywood does NOT get my business because of this.

Its one thing not to know - that can be corrected with knowledge. But to know, and to deceive about something so fundamental tells me that the folks running the operation lack good sense, ethics, and respect for their customers. Who needs that?

[CBulla]

AH... I believe I remember the name of that charter you worked for. To be decieving folks like that is completely sleazy.. like used car salesman sleazy.

I'll spread the word around a few of the shops here about that operation. I like to know my buddies here will return in good shape should something happen.

[D_B]

It was repeated over and over about the need for O2 with any DCI symptoms or even a suspicion of DCI , in my OW class and AOW , but it was after Rescue class that I have become more aware of it and will ask if they have O2 , if the tanks are filled , and they are big enough to do the job required

DB

[BigJetDriver]

Folks,

Just a little story here to make you think.

On a trip to the Caymans not too long ago, I was instructing a re-breather student.

He had a problem with leakage around a counter-lung, and flooded one bag. I signalled "Bailout to OC" and we began to ascend.

At about 20 fsw, he lost control of his bouyancy. Despite my going negative, and dragging on him, he made a too-rapid ascent to the surface.

Now, he is an extremely experienced OC diver, so he was venting his lungs automatically. On the surface, I asked him how he felt. He said fine, but that he was a bit worried about the rapid ascent.

Upon climbing onto the boat, I found (1) the boat handler (I refuse to dignify someone so irresponsible with the name of "Captain"!) was off doing his own dive, so no one was on board. (2) The O2 kit, which I was assured was on-board and in the forward starboard locker ready to go, was in fact scattered in pieces in various places in the forward cabin. Some of the parts required were not found until the boat handler returned from his dive in what seemed to me to be centuries later!

Now the kicker. This boat is operated in cooperation with the staff of a well-known tech dive agency in the Caymans.

Is there enough blame to go around here? "Yer darned tootin'!" as we say here in Tejas! I accept much of it.

The take-home message is this, however:

It does not matter WHO tells you the kit (O2 or First Aid) is there and ready to go. Go look at it YOURSELF. If it is not there, or it is in bad shape, it is time to say "STOP", and get the situation resolved.

As a post-script, the incident turned out to be minor, and the student involved was fine. The possibilities here for disaster are endless, however, and are enough to stand anyone's hair on end, and turn it gray! :11:

[BigJetDriver]

As a P.P.S. to my post above, none of the personnel are there anymore, but when I go back, rest assured that I will not leave the dock until I have laid eyes and hands on both sets of emergency gear! :biggrin2:

[Xanthro]

No O2 then no dive.

Really, we dive without a safety?

If a boat doesn't carry O2 then I doubt the are safe in other areas as well.

[c-monkey]

We always have it on shore during classes (even OW). I just finished the O2 provider class & we'll be getting a bottle for our personal use as well.
I never thought to ask to SEE the proof on the boat so THANK YOU for posting this & (hopefully) bringing it to the attention of other divers that may not realize just how important it is!

[padiscubapro]

I'm just curious as to how many people feel it's important for a dive charter boat to carry oxygen on board for your trip? Do you assume it's on board or do you ask if it is? If you found out the boat didn't have it, would that influence your decision to use that particular boat?

AT ANDI we have it in our standards that Oxygen must be available during ALL training and supervision..

AT ANDI starting at Divemaster, an Oxygen provider rating is required for all professionals. When we do instructor crossovers, they arein't in teaching status until they have completed an oxygen administration class (assuming they weren't current)

Short answer no Oxygen no Diving..

[baitedstorm]

C-Monkey, that is exactly my point. Just because someone says they have it, from now on, if I dont see it, touch, feel it smell it, it doesn't exisist and I'm not getting on that vessel.

Diving is supposed to be fun and safe. If one boat wont carry it, another one will. I know for a fact right now that the SS Minnow and Diving Solution out of WPB and The Temptation out of Jupiter have working O2 on their vessels. I'm sure there are others, but I've never seen/touched them....


Just be careful!

[c-monkey]

I really hope others will post their opinions and reasoning to keep this thread at the top so others will see it!

[LetterBoy]

The outfit I dive with carries O2 EVERYWERE!!!!!
The Pool
The Quarry
Local Charters


I never thought about it until this thread but I will be asking everytime i get on the boat!!!


John

[ktrjc]

Great info for us less experienced divers. Now we will know a few more things to look for in dealing with dive operations. ;)

[gitterdun]

Great info for us less experienced divers. Now we will know a few more things to look for in dealing with dive operations. ;)

You've got that right... I will definitely ask, and make sure that I see it.

[david.tolan]

Discover Scuba in Ireland has O2 in the boat. And on my first dive with them, two divers needed it, got the chopper flight to the hosptial & all. At the end of the day, both divers were OK.

DS later realised that they had no spare bottle for the next days dives, and could not get an O2 fill in time.

Easy solution. They canned the next day's dives.

It's nice to dive with Good People.

Dave

[Li'l38]

Word to the wise Lil, ask to SEE the bottle and be shown that it is full. You'd be surprised if you only knew how often there isn't any on the vessel.That's what I meant. I just never dreamed a commercial operation would be so lax. I know better too, people can get lazy. Not checking for O2 would be like not verifying your EANx. I'm sure new divers or those with little experience just don't realize what to ask about. (I didn't) Only charter trip I've done was OW certification. I'll be getting my own set up for shore dives, private boat trips, various dives I haven't yet done (just bought a wave runner!- my li'l dive boat- :D ) and just as a simple back up plan. Thanks, from me and all the other divers that just didn't realize this problem! I absolutely love ScubaBoard :07:

[renpirate]

I 32nd the need for O2. I always ask about it when booking a charter. I also do a lot of beach dives in which case I bring my own kit.

One other thing that should be mentioned is that providing O2 is just the first step. Prompt activation of EMS is the next critical step. That requires communications equipment, a radio, cell phone, etc. In a serious DCS incident the patient will need to recieve O2 under pressure. It's a good idea to be a member of DAN with their number readily available in case of emergency. They can provide EMS personnel with additional treatment recommendations, including the nearest hyberbaric chamber.

I know alot of you know this already, but I figured it was good information for the newbies :)

[Doc Intrepid]

Thanks, from me and all the other divers that just didn't realize this problem! I absolutely love ScubaBoard...How would you like to be the parents of this kid?

Case: Lewis v. U.S., 03-1655

Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/

The Associated Press
Monday, November 8, 2004: 10:43 AM

"The Supreme Court refused Monday to consider whether the US Coast Guard can be sued for providing questionable emergency care to an injured Florida diver who later became paralyzed.

Federal law does not require the Coast Guard to rescue scuba divers, since they voluntarily accept the risks of deep-water diving. At issue is whether the Coast Guard can be held liable for administering inadequate aid once it agrees to provide a rescue.

The case involves Brandon Drew Lewis, who was diving off the coast of Jacksonville, FL in February, 2000, when he became unconscious due to the bends. Family members on Lewis's boat immediately notified the Coast Guard, which said it would help.

Once the Coast Guard arrived, however, it transported Lewis on its slower vessel to shore for medical help without providing any oxygen or other emergency care.

The lawsuit by his family contends Lewis could have avoided injury if the Coast Guard had either provided oxygen as is standard procedure or refused to administer aid. Since Lewis's boat was speedier, family members could have transported him to shore quicker, they say.

The Coast Guard counters that under federal law, it has broad discretion to decide whether and how it provides emergency help to ailing divers."

The case is Lewis v. U.S., 03-1655.

Lessons Learned:

1. The Coast Guard is not obligated to come to your rescue.
2. If they do, they are not obligated to use a helicopter. They can choose to use a boat. (Apparently in this case family members assumed a helicopter would be dispatched...)
3. Whether they use a boat or an aircraft, they are not obligated to provide oxygen to the stricken diver being transported. In some cases it is not available.
4. (It is worth noting that Lewis's boat did not have O2 aboard. Ergo, Lewis could not begin O2 treatment for the bends immediately, a fact which may have contributed to his subsequent paralysis.) DAN states that prognosis for recovery is directly related to how soon a diver begins O2 treatment.
5. If the dive boat has O2 aboard, this O2 may not be portable. (It may be a T tank installed against a bulkhead.) Therefore, if you want to ensure that (1) the diver can be put on O2 immediately; and (2) if the diver must be evacuated by helicopter or boat, that the O2 may be sent with the stricken diver, then...you need to bring your own O2 with you onto the dive boat.

This diver is now paralyzed, in part due to O2 not being available either on the boat or during transport. How and why aren't really as important to this diver anymore. The outcome is that he is paralyzed.

This activity can be remarkably intolerant of oversight, ignorance, or neglect.

Dive safe,

Doc

[MASS-Diver]

I think the Kid will win the case. Once the CG decided to help, they need to provide basic care. When it comes to DCS there's nothing more basic than oxygen and hydration. That's really Day 1 stuff

Why would any rescue vessel of any type not have O2 on board?

[mxracer19]

More important than having O2 is knowing the proper way to use it. By administering O2 improperly to a DCS victim, you could actually be doing him harm if you do not pay attention.

Example:

A person comes to the surface showing signs of DCS. 100% O2 is administered, however times are not noted. Person arrives at a chamber and the operator has no idea of the victims exposure to O2. Since in most cases recompression is done at a higher %O2, in some cases recompression treatment could be hindered.

[Doc Intrepid]

I think the Kid will win the case. Once the CG decided to help, they need to provide basic care. When it comes to DCS there's nothing more basic than oxygen and hydration. That's really Day 1 stuff...Why would any rescue vessel of any type not have O2 on board?Because they are not required by law to have O2 on board. It's a done deal. This is over. The Supreme Court refused to consider the appeal. The ruling of the lower court was left to stand.

The entire point is that 'once the CG decides to help, they DON'T need to provide O2'. They have "broad discretion" as to what they do and do not offer.

"When it comes to DCS there's nothing more basic than oxygen and hydration. That's really Day 1 stuff": Agreed. That's why it's important to bring your own, and not rely on the CG, the dive boat, or anyone else being able to provide it for you...

[renpirate]

Wow!! Now that is an eye opener. I assumed (mistakenly) that the Coast Guard would be the best to call.

I guess another important point would be to become familiar with the procedures of the local rescue teams. If you are close enough to shore, then call 911 and have an ambulence meet you. They are REQUIRED by law to carry O2. In my area along the Sonoma/Mendocino coast we have a REACH helicopter that can be dispatched for faster transport.

[DaFireMedic]

I think the Kid will win the case. Once the CG decided to help, they need to provide basic care. When it comes to DCS there's nothing more basic than oxygen and hydration. That's really Day 1 stuff

Why would any rescue vessel of any type not have O2 on board?

They are only required to provide care within their training. I have no knowledge of the vessel used nor the training of its crew, so I can't say for sure. If there was no oxygen on board and they were not required to carry it, or if there was oxygen on board but no one trained in treating DCS, then he wouldn't be likely to win.

I feel bad for him, I truly do. But its not the Coast Guards fault that he was hurt. I've always believed in taking responsibilty for ones own actions, and it sounds like they had neither a sound emergency plan nor adequate first aid equipment for diving. Being that they could afford a diving boat, I would think that they could afford an O2 kit. Let us all learn from that, so at least some good may come of the incident.

Also, it sounds like the Coast Guard made a good faith effort to help, even if it was insufficient. Lawsuits like these will only keep the Coast Guard from helping others due to liability. Its also something to keep in mind when we plan whom we will call in the event of an emergency. I've never really thought of the Coast Guard as being a source of EMS for a dive emergency, more for boating type emergencies. Its not a bad idea to find out what the emergency evacuation procedure would be when boat diving in the event of a serious DCS hit.

[Charlie99]

More important than having O2 is knowing the proper way to use it. By administering O2 improperly to a DCS victim, you could actually be doing him harm if you do not pay attention.

Example:

A person comes to the surface showing signs of DCS. 100% O2 is administered, however times are not noted. Person arrives at a chamber and the operator has no idea of the victims exposure to O2. Since in most cases recompression is done at a higher %O2, in some cases recompression treatment could be hindered.Do you have anything to support this statement?

I am not aware of any DCS treatment tables ever being modified to reflect length of O2 exposure at 1ata during transport, no matter how many hours long.

There may be cases where extended exposure to high ppO2 levels during a long dive, or during a series of dive may cause problems (which will be responded to only if respiratory distress actually occurs during recompression), but you are going to run out of O2 before you cause problems at 1 ata.

NEVER WITHHOLD O2 from a diver in distress due to concerns about O2 exposure interfering with recompression.

[BigJetDriver]

NEVER WITHHOLD O2 from a diver in distress due to concerns about O2 exposure interfering with recompression.

I have been trained as a Diver Medic Technician at UTMB. I can tell you that Charlie is absolutely right in his statement above. NEVER WITHHOLD O2.

[bp_968]

Is it possible to rent O2 bottles while on vacation? This would seem like a darn good idea if your trip involved a lot of shore diving (bonaire, etc).

Ben

[cornfed]

Is it possible to rent O2 bottles while on vacation? This would seem like a darn good idea if your trip involved a lot of shore diving (bonaire, etc).You're going to have a hard time finding a place that will. Oxygen is considered a drug which makes people leary about handing it out. Also, since it's used for decompression they might assume you're planning decompression dives without training/c-card.

[JustJoe]

I chose somewhat important. The reason being is that most of my dives happen relatively close to medical facilities, less than an hour from divesite to hospital (figuring boat back to dock, ambulance ride to hospital, probably closer to 30 minutes). With that said it is still important for the boat to have O2.

In the Gulf where the sites are 30 - 50 miles out then O2 onboard becomes much more important.

Joe

[JustJoe]

After reading the entire thread I may have to reconsider my "somewhat" choice. Immediate administration of O2 is that important in the suspected case of DCS?! I guess so.

Joe

[bp_968]

You're going to have a hard time finding a place that will. Oxygen is considered a drug which makes people leary about handing it out. Also, since it's used for decompression they might assume you're planning decompression dives without training/c-card.

I just love father government. The coast guard doesn't need it (or even need to step on the gas when your in need of it) so you should carry it to be safe. Oops! Forgot to tell you, you *CAN'T* carry it. You might do something bad or something you shouldn't do with it. Can't run the risk you might use something incorrectly. Better to ban it so the 0.5% of stupid people don't hurt themselves.

It makes me think of that guy in france that saw the base jumpers at a popular BASE spot out there. He decided it looked like fun, bought a real deal BASE rig, went to the top and jumped. You have to wonder what was going through his head. I mean go ahead and learn how to fish, ride a bike, play baseball, etc, by trial and error. But BASE, technical diving, OW diving, climbing, skydiving... These are all poor choices to learn by trial and error. But hey, if your self preservation instincts are that bad then go ahead. Rather then society freaking out about how unsafe this or that is the correct response would be "boy was that stupid."

<climbing off soapbox>


Ben

Famous last words "Hey y'all! watch this!!"

[RIOceanographer]

You're going to have a hard time finding a place that will. Oxygen is considered a drug which makes people leary about handing it out. Also, since it's used for decompression they might assume you're planning decompression dives without training/c-card.

Where this gets really silly is the difference in the rules between "medical grade" and "aviation grade" oxygen (in the US at least). Both are 100% oxygen intended for breathing purposes. Aside from the name and intended use, the difference between them is that aviation grade oxygen is required to have a lower moisture content than medical grade to prevent condensation from forming if it is used at high altitude. Other than that, they are the same thing.

Now, this is where it gets goofy. Medical O2 is considered a drug and is regulated by the FDA and DOT. Many places will even demand a prescription before providing a fill. Aviation grade is not considered a drug, is regulated by the FAA/DOT does not require a prescription, and fills are often cheaper than medical grade just because it isn't labeled for medical use.

Only in a bureaucracy does that make any sense.

[DaFireMedic]

I just love father government. The coast guard doesn't need it (or even need to step on the gas when your in need of it) so you should carry it to be safe. Oops! Forgot to tell you, you *CAN'T* carry it. You might do something bad or something you shouldn't do with it. Can't run the risk you might use something incorrectly. Better to ban it so the 0.5% of stupid people don't hurt themselves.

It makes me think of that guy in france that saw the base jumpers at a popular BASE spot out there. He decided it looked like fun, bought a real deal BASE rig, went to the top and jumped. You have to wonder what was going through his head. I mean go ahead and learn how to fish, ride a bike, play baseball, etc, by trial and error. But BASE, technical diving, OW diving, climbing, skydiving... These are all poor choices to learn by trial and error. But hey, if your self preservation instincts are that bad then go ahead. Rather then society freaking out about how unsafe this or that is the correct response would be "boy was that stupid."



You are partially correct. The government does regulate these things, and can be silly about it at times. But they do so in response to two things:

1. Does it help me get elected
2. Does it cost us money

Cant do a whole lot about #1, cuz politicians won't change. #2 is a direct result of the legal system being run by the trial lawyers union. A few years back, the National Park service was sued by a rock climber that got himself killed. The government was sued because they had the nerve to allow him to climb on public land. Apparantly responsibility for your own actions and accepting the risk for your own activities doesn't matter. Now access to that land by climbers is in jeopardy. The list of these types of stories is endless.

Its not the government telling you that you can't carry O2 without a prescription, its the lawyers.

[BigJetDriver]

Now, this is where it gets goofy. Medical O2 is considered a drug and is regulated by the FDA and DOT. Many places will even demand a prescription before providing a fill. Aviation grade is not considered a drug, is regulated by the FAA/DOT does not require a prescription, and fills are often cheaper than medical grade just because it isn't labeled for medical use.

Only in a bureaucracy does that make any sense.

But it sure makes it easy to get that O2 bottle filled! :D

[Cap335]

Where this gets really silly is the difference in the rules between "medical grade" and "aviation grade" oxygen (in the US at least). Both are 100% oxygen intended for breathing purposes. Aside from the name and intended use, the difference between them is that aviation grade oxygen is required to have a lower moisture content than medical grade to prevent condensation from forming if it is used at high altitude. Other than that, they are the same thing.
.

Makes it perfect for Nitrox fills

Randy

[offroaddiver]

There are several things I do when I get onto a charter. One of these things is checking for an Oxygen source. Some dive boats don't use a mask but use a regulator instead. I asked why and the general response is that if they suspect a diver of having a chance for DCI or DCS (computer froze,ran out of air at a considerable deep depth, etc.) they have the oxygen to hand down to the dive while he remains more relaxed and more comfortable (cool water as opposed to hot unshaded deck) and it helps prevent any more stress to the diver. They then pull him aboard while he is breathing pure oxygen. If they are close to the marina(less than 20 minutes) they call the marina (sat phone) and have an ambulance ready to take the diver. Often they have multiple plans. This to me makes me feel comfortable.

I ask in advance before booking if oxygen is available. If I arive to the charter boat and there is no oxygen aboard, I leave and demand full refund. This has happened and instead of them coughing up money they put a tank and mask (bought it from a dive shop a block away) on board....people were pissed off at me until someone started showing symptoms of DCS after the first dive. Luckily the diver was just exhausted from lack of exercise and nothing more. I didn't hear crap from anyone after that. The boat captain looked at me when we got back to the docks, walked up and said thanks for saving my ***. He then helped me carry all my gear and helped me load it into my car and waved as I left. The dive shop who I organized the dive charter with informed me when I renturned the gear (less than an hour's drive), that the charter asked to inform me that I was welcome back aboard anytime and that they will have spares of oxygen tanks on their boat.

no oxygen and your dead.

[baitedstorm]

Offroaddiver, that is exactly my point. I had to do something very difficult recently and stand up to my boss, the boat Captain. I found out he had no O2 on the boat so I refused to go out and DM for the day.. I had told him that I would go out and work just that day if he told each and every diver that he had no O2 on the boat and they all agreed it was fine. That never happened!

Well, you can imagine how his response to me was, possibility of losing an entire boat full of money for the day was obviously more important to him then the safety of the divers boarding his vessel.

As for me, I WILL NOT jeopardize divers and their safety NO MATTER WHAT! I'm the first one to call a dive if things look bad, and all to often, I too stand alone.

I applaud you for standing up to that charter boat by demanding the O2 be brought aboard, it was no easy task to listen to the crap from the divers who just want to go out right then and there.

I hated to leave the marina that day, in fact, I was nausea for a good hour afterwards only because I had never in my life walked out on a job like that before. In my heart, I know I did what was right. I don't know if he ever decided to put O2 on the boat, but I'm hear to tell everyone, DO NOT TAKE ANYONES WORD when it comes to safety equipment. You need to see it, analyze it, and make sure that O2 is full. I know for a fact that this captain has told divers that there was O2 on the boat when in fact there was NOT!!! I shutter to think about what could have happened if there had been an emergency.

For all those boat/charter Captains out there, I hope you understand from this poll just how important us divers/paying customers find O2 to be. I know a few of my pervious employers accounts have left him because of him not having the essentials on board. Don't make the same mistake as he has/is.

[Divedoggie]

If that bottle of O2 saved one person....ever.....it would be worth it, and therefor should absolutely be a mandantory item on the boat. Especially if that one person was you!

[toodive4]

This question has a clear cut answer.

Boats should not operate without O2 onboard - period. However this is not the only concern. There must also be a person onbaord properly trained in its administration.

Properly administering the o2 early on after a diving accident can be critical in limiting the extent of the injury and in maintaining the patient until rescue personnel arrive and to the eventual initiation of treatment at the chamber.

While I have been diving on boats that did not carry o2 onboard, they were land based operators where the dive sites were shallow and the time to port was 15 minutes or less. Even under these optimal conditions it is still in my opinion a critical time lapse that could be the difference between life or death or at minimum debilitating injury vs full recovery.

Ken Barrick

[String]

This question has a clear cut answer.

Boats should not operate without O2 onboard - period.

That i agree with.


However this is not the only concern. There must also be a person onbaord properly trained in its administration.

That bit i disagree with. A boat skipper is just that, a taxi to/from the site. I dont expect him to be a diver or trained in other things like this - i simply want him to be good at skippering his boat. Safety equipment is there and i think it should be up to the divers themselves to administer the Oxygen - after all they are the ones doing the diving not the bloke driving the boat.

[reefraff]

This question has a clear cut answer.

Boats should not operate without O2 onboard - period. However this is not the only concern. There must also be a person onbaord properly trained in its administration.

Properly administering the o2 early on after a diving accident can be critical in limiting the extent of the injury and in maintaining the patient until rescue personnel arrive and to the eventual initiation of treatment at the chamber.

While I have been diving on boats that did not carry o2 onboard, they were land based operators where the dive sites were shallow and the time to port was 15 minutes or less. Even under these optimal conditions it is still in my opinion a critical time lapse that could be the difference between life or death or at minimum debilitating injury vs full recovery.

Ken BarrickAs a general rule, I don't dive if there isn't O2 available and that includes shore diving as well as charter operations. I've never canceled a dive because there wasn't O2 available because part of my dive planning includes First Aid and O2 kits. I like it when the charter has O2, it shows that they're a serious operation and it saves me from having to lug my own emergency tank down to the dock, but I come from the "cover your own butt" school of doing things.

I disagree with String, however. I expect the Captain to know how to operate his engines, radio, GPS and everything else associated with his boat, if he provides O2 I would expect him to know how to administer it.

It's not all that complicated, really. EVERYONE should be trained in First Aid and CPR, all divers should be trained in emergency O2 adminstration and if you don't carry a First Aid kit and an O2 bottle with you, make sure that somebody else is. If the charter tells you that they will provide First Aid and O2 equipment and then they don't, don't cancel the charter. Sink their stinking boat.

[dbulmer]

Disagree with you String. The skipper is responsible for all surface based safety and a good skipper has a load of experience that can be called on when things go wrong.

This does not , however, absolve a divers from their personal responsibility. The O2 Administrator has to be there - it could be the skipper or the dive marshall, DO or someone else and I suspect that was the point toodive4 was making.

[MikeFerrara]

I'm with reefraff. When I dive I want O2 available but it doesn't have to be the charter who provides it. If they do, it saves me some trouble but I have my own. It is important to know what the charter does provide before you get there so you can plan to have what you need one way or the other. If I was running a charter I would have it. When I was teaching I had it even though response times in those areas are more like 7 minutes and the dive sites often shallow.

[DaFireMedic]

Disagree with you String. The skipper is responsible for all surface based safety and a good skipper has a load of experience that can be called on when things go wrong.

This does not , however, absolve a divers from their personal responsibility. The O2 Administrator has to be there - it could be the skipper or the dive marshall, DO or someone else and I suspect that was the point toodive4 was making.


It doesn't have to be the skipper, but someone on the crew needs to know how to administer the O2. You can't depend on the other divers, because there may not be a diver on board that knows how to use it. Everyone should be trained to administer it, but few actually are, and some lack the confidence to step forward and help if a situation did arise. You may be able to administer it to yourself, or you may be in the situation where your level of consciousness is decreased to the point where you cannot self administer it.

Anyway, every boat should have O2 and someone on the crew who is trained to administer it.

[BadLatitude]

i carry a 22 cu ft bottle on my personal boat for diving. For a dive charter to not have it blows my mind.

[Tom Yerian]

I'm just curious as to how many people feel it's important for a dive charter boat to carry oxygen on board for your trip? Do you assume it's on board or do you ask if it is? If you found out the boat didn't have it, would that influence your decision to use that particular boat?

Hi my name is Capt.Tom, To start with , I am a certified hyperbaric technician,among many other things in the diving world. To spare you the technical details,YES,o2 is vitally important on a dive boat. I would suggest you not dive on a boat that doesn't offer oxygen. You would be ahead of the game if you carried your own. If you do, be properly trained in its use..... Thank you

Capt. TOM

[String]

Disagree with you String. The skipper is responsible for all surface based safety and a good skipper has a load of experience that can be called on when things go wrong.

This does not , however, absolve a divers from their personal responsibility. The O2 Administrator has to be there - it could be the skipper or the dive marshall, DO or someone else and I suspect that was the point toodive4 was making.

Im still happy for the skipper to skipper on a charter boat and thats it. I dont expect him to be a diver or have an intricate knowledge of diving medicine. Divers should provide their own qualified administrator - its not exactly difficult to qualify for this. The more things you force a skipper to do the higher the price for charter. All divers should imho be trained in oxygen administrator and basic diving first aid anyway.

[offroaddiver]

Oxygen is like a first aid kit, if you don't know how to use it someone can die. I just found out from a friend he was on a dive boat that had oxygen, but the valve had rusted shut and the wrench was missing. I have met several people who survived DCI and they swear it is because of the oxygen on the boat they were diving. He will be able to dive again after he clears all the physicals and such. I've also met people who's dive buddies are gone because of DCI.

Do we use regulators that fail everytime we go diving? Do we go by our guts not following any computer or tables? Do we as divers not care about our health?

I feel oxygen is important and everyone on the boat have some idea as to how to administer the oxygen. Everyone on board a boat is supposed to be able to take control of the boat if necessary, know where life jackets are, and other such important information.

[BigJetDriver]

Folks,

Training is good!! Training helps to achieve a proper outcome in almost any situation! Heck, I get paid to train people to train!

Having said that, I have to say that if you are faced with a situation where you have a diver who needs 02, you have O2, and no one has been trained, USE IT ANYWAY!

Connect the mask, turn on the flow, put it on the diver's face, and let him or her breathe it. Don't strike a light for any reason near the patient. You folks are divers. You can turn a valve. You can fit a mask. You can do this. It won't hurt. It will almost certainly help. There are Good Samaritan laws to protect you, but again, it won't hurt, and will almost certainly help.

Those first few minutes can be CRITICAL!

[dbulmer]

BigJetDriver,
Yup makes sense but for those of us who have not done an O2 Admin course, what does it actually entail?

String,
I agree with you by and large - all I'm saying is that the better skippers are more than taxi drivers and you get what you pay for in the end.

[baitedstorm]

Here's the thing, while I'll be the first to say "Divers, you damn well better know how to save yourself and your buddy by continuing your education", I'm also here to stand up and say to any boat captains on this board or out in our dive industry, you have a duty to protect every person that boards your vessel. If you feel differently and have "a set of brass" ,I encourage you to post your name and your charter company. I'll be the first to say, I wont ride with you and will go to great lengths to make sure the people I love and care about don't get on your vessel either.

For God sakes, I'm not asking for an intricate knowledge of diving medicine, just a Captain who can handle things should "it" hit the fan. Having a successful business is NOT a right, it's a privilege. If I hear of someone violating divers safety, you better believe I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure each and every diver I speak to knows what that captain (and where his charter business is at) is up too.

I ask myself this before going out with someone new. After speaking to the crew and Captain and checking out the boat, would I allow my child to dive with this dive op? Would I trust the Captains ability to come to her aid if something bad happened?
All to often, we put our own safety on the back burner for a great time, me included. So by asking for my daughter, it tends to put things more into perspective for me.

I'm not trying to cause a war with boat Captains, of course the only ones whom would argue with me on this would be the ones who don't find themselves responsible for their customers safety anyway's.. I just want to really make sure our brand new people understand how important it is to know what's going on before trusting their lives to strangers. I want them to know, they have a RIGHT to stand up and ask where the O2 is and if they can see it. They also have a right to get the heck off that vessel if they find the boat to be unsafe.

My suggestion, if a diver is going out with a dive charter for the first time, get there early, ask basic questions like, do you have a first aide kit on board and someone qualified to use it? Whom would that person be? Do you have O2 on board? Someone who can administer it? Whom would that be? Ask if you could check out the O2, in fact you can tell them your friend Vickie from the SB got burnt (morally speaking) bad by a Captain lying about having O2 on his vessel and ever since that happened to her, you just need to check it out for yourself.


And now I'm going to take NetDoc's advice and stop posting cause I'm annoyed and may say something I would regret later :)

[ianr33]

Excellent Thread
I am thinking of getting another deco tank dedicated to O2. This would only be used occasionally on dives but would be a good thing to have in an emergency. In the event of an unconscious diver it would be useless though. Is there an adapter/mask that lets you use a normal scuba reg on an unconscious patient?

[baitedstorm]

I haven't seen one as of yet. You need a free flowing mask once the injured has gone unconscious. I am by far, no expert on this, but we have some extremely knowledgeable members here that would know. I'm going to send a few of them a pm and see if they could help out with your question.

[cornfed]

Is there an adapter/mask that lets you use a normal scuba reg on an unconscious patient?There was a thread about this on TDS a while back. All you need is an adaptor to convert DIN to a medical regulator and the medical reg, of course.

Several people said they had medical regs with 1/4" NPT fittings and it's pretty easy to find an adaptor to take that to DIN. After that all you need is a non-rebreather mask and they're easy enough to find.

Try giving North East Scuba Supply (http://www.northeastscubasupply.com) a call. I didn't see everything on there website but John (the owner) has a good reputation for helping out with fill whips, adaptors, etc.

[jbisjim]

Every Charter I go on I ask about o2, even a lot of my buds who have boats now maintain 02 on board. I even take a bottle when helping with open waters.

Very important IMHO...

[Divesherpa]

Is there an adapter/mask that lets you use a normal scuba reg on an unconscious patient?

In the strange and rare event that something like this happens and there are only standard scuba decompression cylinders available, a normal scuba regulator can be used. Being unconscious means that the diver will not be able to hold the regulator in his/her mouth. At this point, whoever is managing the accident would choose someone who is competent enough to hear breathing (and continue visual scans over the victim ;) ) to hold the regulator in the victim's mouth. This puts the "holder" in touch with the regulator and ensures that the victim has a dedicated hand on him/her at all times. It also frees up the accident manager to continue assisting others and communicate with shore for support of the accident.

[Scuba_Dad]

I haven't seen one as of yet. You need a free flowing mask once the injured has gone unconscious.

I wish I still had the "Doing it right" book. There's a chapter in there on using a second stage to supply oxygen. I believe the book mentioned using it on an unconcious diver..

[BigJetDriver]

Folks,

I will mention this as a caveat. IF the victim is breathing on his (or her) own, and can hold a regulator bit in his mouth, breathing on a high O2 content deco gas will help, if there isn't any 100% O2 available.

If the person is unconscious, but breathing on his own, holding the bit in the mouth while being careful not to force it in will help.

DO NOT, if you choose this method, I say again, DO NOT hit the purge button. The pressure produced will almost certainly cause lung over-inflation injuries to add to the victim's woes! :11:

[CBulla]

Folks,

I will mention this as a caveat. IF the victim is breathing on his (or her) own, and can hold a regulator bit in his mouth, breathing on a high O2 content deco gas will help, if there isn't any 100% O2 available.

If the person is unconscious, but breathing on his own, holding the bit in the mouth while being careful not to force it in will help.

DO NOT, if you choose this method, I say again, DO NOT hit the purge button. The pressure produced will almost certainly cause lung over-inflation injuries to add to the victim's woes! :11:

Echo this one, buddy. If I remember correctly only the newer O2 manual demand valves are designed to not over inflate an unconscious adults lungs. If your concerned about being at this point with a patient, make it easy on yourself and invest in an ambu bag. O2 can be connected to the ambu and it will allow you to provide continuous respiratory cycles with much cleaner air.

If your dealing with an unconscious or conscious breathing patient the best meathod is to use a non-rebreather mask OR nasal canuals. A note on these items - they are single use items, when they've been used, disgard and get new for the next time. :)

[NetDoc]

Ditto the last two comments... it doesn't take much to rupture lung membranes and the demand valves on the newer O2 provider units will limit both volume and pressure to prevent this. Having a couple of EE tanks will give you quite a bit of gas, and are FAR more portable than a scuba tank.

[cornfed]

Ditto the last two comments... it doesn't take much to rupture lung membranes And let's not forget gastric distention either! :D

[murphdivers286]

hard to believe there are still people out there who dont think o2 is important