I've got a Dive-Rite 50# lift bag, and my reel is being ordered as we speak. I have two questions, one with rigging up an ascent line, and one with actually shooting the bag.
1) Those that don't know, Dive-Rite bags come with a pouch. My plan is to rig the pouch upside down on the right side of my tank, as my pony is on the left side, and the pony straps will give me a nice way to secure the lift bag pouch. On the right side of my BC under my pocket is a plastic ring where I was planning on clipping my reel. I have been vacilating between clipping the reel to the bag, or leaving it unclipped. Clipping to the bag leaves an entanglement hazard, not clipping to the bag leaves both a chance for the bag to vanish on me, and perhaps make it difficult to reach if I need it. Once I get the reel, I'm going to run some land tests as far as reach and such, so it might not work anyway, but I'm looking for opinions.
2) On shooting the bag. Everything I've seen has talked about looping it or anchoring it to the bottom. What if there isn't any easy way to do that? I had envisioned it would be used by sending the bag, then clipping the reel to myself and ascending up, while reeling in the line. One of my concerns on this was if I clip it to myself before I send the bag, I run the risk of going for a ride if the line gets fouled in the reel. However not clipping it to myself runs the risk of loosing the bag and reel if it gets fouled... and since this would be an emergency situation, loosing the bag and reel wouldn't be good. I plan on running some sea trial drills when I get the reel and get the configuration settled.
So I'm looking for opinions, both on the above, and on shooting bags for ascent lines in general.
Green_Manelishi
June 10th, 2002, 12:27 PM
Yo Funky_Monks,
1) what type of BC are you using?
2) I'd suggest NOT placing an open ended bag open-end-down
unless you have a way of closing it off to prevent just what
you fear (losing the lift bag)
3) I'd suggest a SPOOL rather than a reel. Spool less likely to
jam.
4) I'd suggest NOT clipping the reel to the bag while you are
diving ... you COULD potentially clip a spool to the bag and
stick the entire assembly in your bag
5) I'd suggest NOT clipping the reel/spool to you until you KNOW
the bag is on the surface (actually, the spool won't work at
all if you clip it prior to shooting the bag)
6) tieing off to the bottom is doable IF you've a thick enough
line on the spool/reel to comfortably hold for extended periods
of time. Personally, I'd rather NOT wrap my hands around
tied-to-the-bottom #24, #36, #48 line.
7) sometimes stuff is reachable on land but not in the water
8) PM me and perhaps we can get together in NH/lower ME
to go over some gear and do some drills
9) I am NOT an instructor and have no wish to be so take that
FWIW ...
G_M
WreckWriter
June 10th, 2002, 01:32 PM
Hi Funky,
GM's advice is good. Don't attach it to anything, including yourself. Attaching the line to the bottom is old East Coast style, generally done with a Jersey Line rather than a liftbag. It's not standard anymore.
As for clipping the reel to yourself before shooting, nope. That's way dangerous. Do like GM said and get a spool. DO NOT clip it to yourself or you'll take a ride.
Most folks around here shoot at about 70 feet, shoot, then do first gas switch, then start deco time.
Tom
Uncle Pug
June 10th, 2002, 01:38 PM
As I read you post I realized that the proliferation of reels and liftbags/dive markers poses a great hazzard to untrained divers.
Much ado is made of the necessity of getting training before using a drysuit... which is far less complicated than using a lift bag with line. Many of us started using drysuits before such training was ever thought of. But I can tell you that shooting a bag can really mess you up in a hurry if you are not careful.
There are so many issues in your post that I don't know if I can cover them all... but let me blanket them with this... you should get training... either formal or informal... in using a lift bag and a reel.
1) The way you plan on carrying your bag and reel is a potential snag hazzard of the first order... but you are already exposing yourself to that danger by using a back mounted pony. You should have thigh pockets put onto your exposure suit and stow things in them. Right pocket is for things you will use on the dive... left pocket is for backups. I can't deal with the pony here.
2) Don't use a reel for the bag... use a spool... and don't run the line under anything before sending it up.... let the spool spin freely in the water and when it stops spinning the bag is on the surface... clip the line off to the spool but never to yourself and you shouldn't be holding on to the line or the spool either... if the wind or surface current is taking the bag away then grab the spool every so often and jerk it down to bring the bag back.
3) You may keep the spool line and bag attached to one another stowed in the right pocket ready for deployment but then you should carry an extra spool in the left pocket.
4) Carry an extra double ended boltsnap so when you drop the one on your spool while winding it up to the next stop you have a spare to clip the line off with.
5) Plastic d-rings? Good grief Jeff!
6) Be willing to lose a bag rather than your life or risk serious injury... what is the cost of the most expensive bag/spool compared to a chamber ride or funeral???
7) Why do you need an ascent line??? Practice free ascents referencing the floating stuff in the water and your wrist mounted depth gauge. If you are ascending along a line... anchor or otherwise... do not touch it. Shooting a bag is to mark your position for the pickup boat or to keep from getting run over by other boaters... it is not an crutch to make up for deficient buoyancy skills.
Uncle Pug
June 10th, 2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by WreckWriter
Attaching the line to the bottom is old East Coast style, generally done with a Jersey Line rather than a liftbag. It's not standard anymore.
Shane and I stopped by Lowes on the way to the boat yesterday and bought a spool of sisal cord.
Out on the reef we were marking locations by sending up bags tied to the spool of sisal... the the bag would pay line out of the center of the spool and then we would cut the line and tie it off to the bottom.
The plan was to mark the locations with GPS once back on the surface, retrieve the bag, cut the line and let it sink to rot away...
We shot four bags in a 3 acre area and ran out of bags so we finished the 70 minute dive putzing around on the scooters...
It was then that I realized we were going to have to ascend w/o a bag to mark our position in an area infested with boats...
Moral of the story... never forget the main reason for carrying a bag is to mark your position!
tchil01
June 10th, 2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by WreckWriter
Hi Funky,
GM's advice is good. Don't attach it to anything, including yourself. Attaching the line to the bottom is old East Coast style, generally done with a Jersey Line rather than a liftbag. It's not standard anymore.
As for clipping the reel to yourself before shooting, nope. That's way dangerous. Do like GM said and get a spool. DO NOT clip it to yourself or you'll take a ride.
Most folks around here shoot at about 70 feet, shoot, then do first gas switch, then start deco time.
Tom
Tom
Jersey lines, running the line under something so the bag pulls you down vs. pulling you up, and tying off on the bottom are still alive up here in the East Coast. It's what I was taught in both my advanced class and wreck classes. Reels are used for penatrations and for low vis diving when you can't see your way back to the anchor line.
Anyway, that's the way I was taught... and pretty recently too. And it's the setup I see on a lot of boats up here. So what's the standard now?
Ty
tchil01
June 10th, 2002, 02:05 PM
Hey UP
1) The way you plan on carrying your bag and reel is a potential snag hazzard of the first order... but you are already exposing yourself to that danger by using a back mounted pony. You should have thigh pockets put onto your exposure suit and stow things in them. Right pocket is for things you will use on the dive... left pocket is for backups. I can't deal with the pony here.
No Pony discussion here :)
I know you advocate thigh pockets but I wanted to get your thoughts on a diferent set up. I have two loops of surgical tubing off the bottom of my TP II ( I know, it's not a true BP... ) I roll my lift bag and secure it in the two loops. It's under my tank there's no chance of it getting snaged... and I can reach back and unhook it with one hand. It came in handy thiw weekend when a student lost his weight belt on the surface coming in from night dive and we had to surface swim that 36# belt back in.
Ty
Spectre
June 10th, 2002, 02:39 PM
Wow... thanks for all the feedback, so much that I can't just quote simply, so lets try and throw out some responses, and let me know if I missed one of your questions/comments.
First, why an ascent line? I'll have a lift bag and a reel, so I want to know how to do it, in case I'm in a situation where I would need the knowledge to survive. The situations I'm thinking of would be involved in current, where the bag would be used to mark where I am, and the concern I have is staying with the bag on ascent [expecially if the surface current is different than the current at depth], but it's more a general knowledge thing of how to do things with the stuff I have.
Training. I had training with lift bags and reels in my Search & Recovery, which obviously doesn't entail true training, but I've also gained more experience with lift bags since then. So the informal training is beginning here with the information.
BC/Plastic rings. Yea yea yea, my BC is a piece of junk. It's on my list of things that will be replaced, but until I find the time to research into exactly what I want, or hit a point where it needs to be replaced [at which point the research time is made] it's got to do. It's just your low end, jacket style Dacor Sportster.
Location of the lift bag. Reachability and snag hazard... check. I could easily fashion something to strap it to my thigh. I like the idea of thigh pockets and I'll have to put some thought into that to see what sort of thing I might be able to fashion/find. Oh... the storage bag has velcro to keep it's contents inside.
No clipping... check.
clip the line off to the spool but never to yourself and you shouldn't be holding on to the line or the spool either... if the wind or surface current is taking the bag away then grab the spool every so often and jerk it down to bring the bag back.
Excellent... thanks UP.
Wendy
June 10th, 2002, 02:49 PM
Jeff,
Dive rite sells a thigh pocket that is made to attach to a harness and velcro around your leg. Cut off the harness attachement and remove the velcro and glue/sew the pocket to the outside of your thigh. Halcyon also sells a pocket.
WreckWriter
June 10th, 2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by tchil01
Tom
Jersey lines, running the line under something so the bag pulls you down vs. pulling you up, and tying off on the bottom are still alive up here in the East Coast. It's what I was taught in both my advanced class and wreck classes. Reels are used for penatrations and for low vis diving when you can't see your way back to the anchor line.
Anyway, that's the way I was taught... and pretty recently too. And it's the setup I see on a lot of boats up here. So what's the standard now?
Ty
OK, my mistake. I was under the impression that the standard had changed to the shoot a bag and drift method on the Upper East Coast also.
In reality I see advantages to the Jersey method as well. It's always worked and there's certainly no reason it won't work still.
Tom
WreckWriter
June 10th, 2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by tchil01
I have two loops of surgical tubing off the bottom of my TP II
I carry my salvage bags this way too. My deco bag is a lighter weight model and is stuffed in my BP pouch. The 100 lb Carters are so big that the under-pack loops are best. I use bungee cord instead of surgical tubing.
Tom
Spectre
June 10th, 2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Wendy
Dive rite sells a thigh pocket that is made to attach to a harness and velcro around your leg
Ahh.. that'd be perfect, and actually what I was invisioning. Is there a disadvantage to using as-is, or should I mount them permanently [with two different wetsuits, and a drysuit coming eventually I like the idea of removable...]
Uncle Pug
June 10th, 2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by tchil01
I have two loops of surgical tubing off the bottom of my TP II ( I know, it's not a true BP... ) I roll my lift bag and secure it in the two loops. It's under my tank there's no chance of it getting snaged...
I know that folks do it but I haven't and haven't seen it myself so can't comment directly except to say that it might interfer with the butt ring use but I don't know. I should give it a try and see. I do use the butt ring for the big reel and also it is a tow point for a dead scooter driver... err... I mean the scooter is dead not the driver... he clips his scooter off on his butt ring and holds on to mine.
Uncle Pug
June 10th, 2002, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by funky__monks
[with two different wetsuits, and a drysuit coming eventually I like the idea of removable...]
All it takes is money.... :D
Actually DUI has a pocket sewn onto their CF200 material that you can glue onto wetsuits or CF200 successfully.
We use billows pockets with velcro (no zipper to jam) and they don't like to stick very well... Shane has had to have his glued on twice to his CF200 and I keep adding my aqua seal to keep mine sorta on my Andy's Trilam... however the ones I just had put on my new CF200 are sweeeeeeet!
So here is a low budget idea... if you sew or know someone who does... shoot buy your wife a sewing machine and have... wait... I said low budget...
OK... make some bellows pockets outta heavy weight nylon packcloth or cordura... scrounge around a thrift store for something you can cut the material from. Then sew these pockets onto some neoprene... the glue the neoprene onto your wetsuit using seal cement or some other neoprene cement.
Spectre
June 10th, 2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Uncle Pug
So here is a low budget idea... if you sew or know someone who does... shoot buy your wife a sewing machine and have... wait... I said low budget...
*chuckle* The money isn't quite my concern [although 2 extra pockets is $50 that could go elsewhere, like the HID fund, or the drysuit fund, or the rebreather fund, or... damn I thought skiing was expensive!].
My question was more for the 'attach vs. not attach'. What would be the benefits to sewing or glueing pockets on, if I went with a pocket like the Dive Rite Thigh pocket, which velcros around my leg and clips to my belt. I'd prefer the non-permanent method, but I wanted to get an idea of the pros and cons while I weigh them out to make my decision...
Uncle Pug
June 11th, 2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by funky__monks
I'd prefer the non-permanent method
Why?
I don't want to rely on velcro to hold on a crucial piece of gear like a pocket loaded with important stuff!
Green_Manelishi
June 11th, 2002, 01:43 PM
F_M,
Do yourself a favor and glue/sew the pockets (bought or
home-made) directly onto the suit.
I've used the dive-rite pocket and it never was very a joy
to use ... attached pockets much nicer.
G_M
Spectre
June 11th, 2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Green_Manelishi
I've used the dive-rite pocket and it never was very a joy
to use ... attached pockets much nicer.
Good enough... thanks.
large_diver
June 11th, 2002, 02:02 PM
FifthD sells some reasonably priced bellows/velcro pockets. They are $30 per.
Per Sonya at FifthD, these can be glued to wet or dry suits. They are large, enabling easier use with heavier gloves in colder climes. Unfortunately, they are backordered at the moment (I'm still waiting for mine), but they should be getting more in "any day".
Halcyon sells similar velcro & zippered models, but they are rather pricey at $68.
http://www.halcyon.net/exposure/accessories01.shtml
Info from Halcyon.net on attaching pockets.....look at the left side of the page.
http://www.halcyon.net/dir/index.shtml
Uncle Pug
June 11th, 2002, 02:16 PM
...is the hard part...
Both Shane and I have pockets from (actually put on by) 5thD and they are coming off... Shane's have been put on his CF200 twice and I keep gluing mine on my Andy's trilam myself... that is the nature of the things I guess...
However the DUI pockets on my new CF200 are sewn onto CF200 material that is then glued to the suit... these are staying put.
So my advice is to sew the pockets to a piece of compatible material that you can then glue to your suit.
Eventually I intend to rip the pockets off of my Andy's and sew them to pieces of trilam that I can glue to the suit.
I think the problem is the heavy denier of the pocket doesn't allow a good glue bond.
large_diver
June 11th, 2002, 02:18 PM
Pug,
Sonya did mention this -- good point. Your suggestion sounds like a good one.
-C
Burke
June 11th, 2002, 02:23 PM
Do any drysuit companies offer DIR style pockets as an option when you buy the suit, I don't have a drysuit yet and I would think that would be the way to go if it is an option.
Spectre
June 11th, 2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Uncle Pug
So my advice is to sew the pockets to a piece of compatible material that you can then glue to your suit.
Hmm... They'd be going onto neoprene, which I can't imagine holds glue very well...
Actually, now that I think more about it, I've got a 2 piece suit, and pockets on my jacket might ride a little high, not to mention not giving me the option to use just the farmer john and still have the pockets.
Hmm... I think I'm going to go with the dive-rite pockets, try 'em out as is, and think about permanent attachment after I get a feel for them. I can always permanently attach them later...