Diver drowns while training

[Nitrox Junkie]

For the second time in less than two years, an Indianapolis Fire Department training dive turned deadly.

In an accident that is still under investigation, officials said 37 year old Paul Jolliff drowned after he apparently panicked and was unable to surface just before 1 pm Friday.

It took rescuers nearly two hours to find Jolliff in the cold, murky water of a Northwest side pond. He was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital.

The seven-year veteran normally drove a firetruck and was a paramedic at Station 10, 2970 N. Sherman Drive.

He was on his 22nd and final practice mission before being certified as a department dive team member. Another Indianapolis firefighter, Warren J.C. Smith, died on a training dive in August 2000.

He is survived by his wife, Wendy, who is pregnant with their second child. Jolliff also has a son who will turn 3 in October. Jolliff was the grandson of Paul K. Jolliff, an Indianapolis firefighter from 1940 to 1966.

The accident happened in a pond near 79th Street and Marsh Road. The private, 10-acre pond has been used by police and fire agencies for training for about 40 years.

Investigators spent the afternoon and evening questioning at least 25 witnesses at the pond on the grounds of the Ropkey Armor Museum. Many details of the accident are still unknown.

Senior Deputy Cheif Dave Grider informed firefighters via their radio about six hours after the tragedy of the news and ordered all flags flown at half-staff.

At a news conference a few minutes later, he and other department leaders were unable to say whether proper life-saving techniques were followed. Chief Louis Dezelan cut short a vacation, returning to Indianapolis from south Florida on Friday night.

The United States sees three to five deaths a year among police and fire department dive teams, according to Mike Bielmaier, vice president of the International Association of Dive Rescue Specialists.

Usually, those deaths come in practice as divers face situations for which they are unprepared.

"Typically, the problem lies in training," he said, "or in the equipment available to them."

The association is a nonprofit operatiing from Fort Collins, Colo. aimed at helpiing public service divers and teams. Bielmaier said his group recommends new divers be banned from depths greater than 60 feet.

Officials said Jolliff was between 50 and 60 feet down at the time of the accident, but the pond is up to 70 feet deep in some spots.

IFD officials promised to learn from the incident

"It makes us want to find out everything we can. If there's any way that it can be avoided in the future, we want to find it." Grider said. "We won't rest until we find it."

Jolliff was part of a class of novice divers. They were finishing the last of their training dives, said Dawn Smith, deputy cheir of the Pike Township Fire Department.

The training class included firefighters from Lawerence, Fishers, Indianapolis and Wayne and Pike townships, along with officers from the Indianapolis Police Department.

Jolliff and his dive partner decended at 12:15 p.m. During the training, divers perform a search for an object and do so intentionally in zero visibility.

The two divers were tethered together and also had a rope that led to the surface.

At 12:30 p.m. just 15 minutes into the practice run, Grider said Jolliff apparently panicked and reached over and informed his diving partner. Jolliff's weight belt was removed --- either by himself or his partner, Jay Updike of the Fishers Fire Department. Updike surfaced and immediately warned diving instructors of the danger below.

When the weight belt came off, Jolliff should have floated free to the surface. But he didn't. It took the use of a sonar-equipped boat from Fred Ropkey, owner of the property, for searchers to find Jolliff at 2:56 p.m.

Indianapolis Fire Department officials say that the pond has all types of debris at the bottom, ranging from wires to tree limbs, that might have caught Jolliff.

"Just about any pond in Indiana is going to have the possibility of a snag," Smith added.

The Marion County Sheriff's Department is investigating the death.

One diver in the rescue party had to be helped to shore after he got a severe headache. He was treated at the scene.

The last firefighter who died in an accident drowned in about 70 feet of water.

An investigation afterward showed he might have become entangled in lines used to guide a training search. Smith had been practicing the rescue of a drowning child.

Capt. Mario Garza, spokesman for the INdianapolis Fire Department, said the department made minor changes to its procedures after the accident, but some steps -- including checking divers' air supplies before submerging -- were adopted.









"Its a sad tragedy. Just pray"

Jeff Great lakes diver

:tribute:

[MikeFerrara]

The true situation in public safety diving is divings dirty little secret. They are poorly trained, inexperienced and ill equiped. IMO, it is criminal.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
The true situation in public safety diving is divings dirty little secret. They are poorly trained, inexperienced and ill equiped. IMO, it is criminal.
And you are right Mike.

Throw in a few unmentionables like inter-agency turf wars, intra-departmental rivalries, ego driven agendas, macho attitudes.... (dear reader this does not apply to you nor your department/ organization... I am talking about another department/organization)

AND...

Often very hazardous diving environments.

But someone has to do this work... and some one has to train for it... and accidents will happen... and it is very sad when someone who is persuing a career of helping others loses their life... and every FF/rescue worker knows that their life is on the line... and as a public we should be willing to front the money for the best training and equipment... and we should also respectfully mourn the loss of life whether it be in training or in an actually rescue situation.

[gentlegiant]

This was a tragic loss and I hope it causes a change in the way rescue divers are trained and equiped. I have talked with a couple of guys in local dive shops who are rescue divers in addition to being instructors and in both cases the departments have made blanket choices on gear selections that could be troublesome. One department has equiped all of their divers in Scubapro gear, which is pretty good gear, but made poor choices in the gear configuration. They decided to go with the integrated "airsource" backup regs instead of a real backup/octo and I believe they are using jacket style BC's instead of a back inflation BC or better yet a BP/wing setup. IMHO rescue department divers should be trained and equiped as technical divers due to the type of diving they are called on to do. If it were me I would want a bulletproof, simple and proven gear configuration. I am not a DIR diver, although my equipment configuration and ways of thinking are heading that way as I do more diving, but DIR does make sense for rescue and public service divers. They are most often diving in high current, low vis conditions where the last thing they need to think about is gear management. I think the main problem is the department heads and bean counters not being familiar with diving and not allowing the divers to make the choices on gear configuration and training.

My hood is off to all those who do public service diving and I hope that those divers get the chance to do things the right way so that no more of them have to pay the "ultimate" price unneccesarily.

[tchil01]

This year at Beneath the Sea I saw a group that was discussing specific training and certification for Public Safety Diving. There was a lot of discussion about liabiity, Workmens Comp issues and insurance for public safety divers, including a push for a third class of divers instead of just commercial and recreational. Several guys at our LDS, including the son of the owner are police who also dive for their depatments when needed. The get no other training as divers outside of their courses through the LDS.

Ty

[DivingGal]

Public Safety Divers are getting additional training. Sure not all, and definately not enough of them, but there is training out there for them.

Last year I took a course with Andra Zaferes from Lifeguard Systems - all about Public Safety Teams -- though the audience turned out to be divers like myself who wanted to improve their "rescue/recovery" techniques. She quickly adapted the course, and we all had a grand time.

Lifeguard Systems (www.teamlgs.com)

[pipedope]

Most public safety diving is being done with the wrong gear.

When you are going into zero visability water with lots of entanglement hazards and have to work then surface supplied gas (air) is the way to go. Surface supplied gives you nearly unlimited time so nearly any problem can be worked out. It also makes a com link dirt simple so the diver can be telling the surface personel in real time what is going on. In the vast majority of cases it is easy to find the surface supplied diver by following his (her) unbilical. In the cases where this is not the case you have one of two common conditions (actually common only in the extreem case of not having the diver still on the end of the hose). First is where the unbilical is hung up and the diver cannot free it, he tells the surface that the unbilical is hung up and that he is going off com and surface air and going on the bailout bottle for the trip to the surface. the dive supervisor has the option of sending the standby diver down to escort the diver up if things are very hazardous. The other case is when something cuts the unbilical. Now you have the sudden loss of diver sounds on the com link and lots of bubbles from the cut hose. Soon you will see the diver surfacing on the bailout bottle.

SCUBA is a wonderful thing and is a good choice for quick response and work where independent movement is needed, working in black water is not the place for scuba.

Public safety diving does have exemption from the rules that apply to commercial diving in the USA because they do need some flexibility to deal with different situations but it is still a bad idea to do jobs that call for surface supplied air, full face masks or helmets and standby divers still really need these things to be done safely.
You may take a chance when it might save a life but most searches don't have this opportunity.

Public safety diving has come a long way, let us hope that they can go the last few yards to a suite of gear and training to safely do the jobs they need to do.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by pipedope
Most public safety diving is being done with the wrong gear.

When you are going into zero visability water with lots of entanglement hazards and have to work then surface supplied gas (air) is the way to go.
Bingo!
Rick

[sharpenu]

As a professional rescuer, I can tell you that surface supplied gas is not the way to go in most cases. Entanglement is a big enough hazard without adding another object (the hose) that can become tangled. The rig required depends on the conditions of the rescue. Some call for pony bottle and horse collar. Some call for drysuit (no picnic in Florida's WARM water) and others still for surface supply. The number one thing to remember as a rescuer is: improvise, adapt and overcome. The only way to do that is to train, train, train.

I feel the problem in this case (form reading the report. I wasn't there and don't have the whole story) is that the diver freaked out. I don't think that a diver with only 21 dives is qualified or prepared for zero viz rescue diving.

My heart goes out to the family of Brother Jolliff. I hope that IFD will realize that there are problems in the training program and fix them. Two deaths in 2 years is UNACCEPTABLE.

[indypddiver]

Hello all. I happened across this website last night in an attempt to better research the future purchase of a dive computer. Until that time, I did not know of its existence. When I read the messages posted here, I felt a mixture of pride, sadness, and appreciation. I am a police diver for the City of Indianapolis and was present soon after Firefighter Paul Jolliff was reported missing. Shortly after my arrival to the scene, I was in the water looking for Paul...albeit vainly. It was only with the help of sonar equipment that divers from my team later found him. I truly appreciate those of you who expressed their condolences and wishes of safe diving for us who serve as public safety divers.

However, I was also slightly disheartened when reading other comments suggesting a lack of experience, training, and equipment among public safety divers. I in no way wish to argue against broad and generalized comments. I do wish to set the record somewhat straight. I would strongly disagree with what Mr. Ferrara stated. There are approximately 3 to 5 diving related deaths per year in the public safety ranks. That's after countless divers take thousands upon thousands of calls. We train constantly and are always advancing our diving skills and knowledge. We continuously harp on one another about pre-dive safety. We check, recheck, and check again our gear before entering even the shallowest of water. I think I can safely say that, in general, we are among the absolute safest of any class of diver. Unfortunately, the most advanced and rigorous training in the world will not prevent every accident. I severely wish it otherwise. Its relatively easy to dive 80 feet with 200 feet of vis. Its extremely difficult to dive 20 feet with absolute zero vis in water that averages 45 degrees, and do it over and over and over...try it sometime.

Paul was diving one of the last dives necessary to become a public safety diver for the Indianapolis Fire Department. This was not a fly by the seat of your pants Open Water class, nor was it a class designed to make one a better recreational diver. The class took several months to complete and focused heavily on the number one priority of any dive...safety. Its easy to armchair quarterback any accident and throw your two cents in, but unless you happened to be there, opinions are just that.

I will be attending Paul's funeral in just a matter of hours and wrote this long-winded note probably more out of frustration and sadness at losing a great, great person, than in an attempt to attack anyone's opinion. Please do not take it as such. Paul took great pride in his chosen career and only wanted to contribute that much more by becoming a public safety diver....after all, someone has to do it.

Thanks,


indypddiver

[danceswithoctopus]

indypddiver,

Please convey our condolences to Mr. Jolliff's survivors for me, my family, and (I trust they will agree) the members of this board. I am certain that no one here meant any disrespect with any comments made. We strive to understand as much as we can about every diving accident in order to learn and prevent similar accidents. So any factual information you might provide for us would be invaluable to us. As you know, local media coverage is notoriously bad (they often state that the diver 'ran out of oxygen' or some such useless drivel). Those of us who are far removed from the scene must rely on those of you who are in close contact. If you feel so inclined, I invite you to share as many details as you feel comfortable with. As I said earlier, we wish to learn, and to prevent similar accidents.

Please know that Paul, as well as his family, is in my thoughts and prayers.

:tribute:

God Bless

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

Who teaches you guys to drop the weights of a distressed diver at depth? This seems to be a theme in Iny, ref the report from the last accident? Why do you learn or practice the use of lines in searches at 70 ft. Why wasn't the instructor or the DM in the water (aug 2000)? Why, After the call for help did another student descend to 70 ft again (like his third descent) and the instructor and DM stay at the surface (Aug 2000)? In aug 2000, why were two searches conducted so close together? Why were the buoys not anchored securely? In Aug 2000 why did they drop the victems weights? I have participated in rescue training, search and recovery training, advanced trainind and ice training of dive team members (not from the Indy department) They were all green, had poor buoyancy control and didn't in general dive enough to ever get good. The department requires what? 6 dives per year. Well...that is a busy weekend. They certainly didn't have the experience to do that kind of work. Please don't (at least not for me) contrast this to recreational diving. I know all about bad vis, especially when it is caused by the students conducting the search. You are close, come talk to me and you will see the kind of dives we do. These training dives are not what we would call challanging by any stretch of the imagination, althouh you are certainly training for some of the worst conditions. Nobody should get hurt doing the training. Memorize the report from Aug 2000 like I have and then lets sit down and talk. I will try to stay calm. I could write a book on this one outraguous incedent. It should never have happened. I conduct many S & R training dives much like this one every year. We do it different and it never gets this messy. We not only dive cold and bad vis and with lines, we do so a quarter mile back in a cave. If I only get one thing done in my life I want to contribute to helping wake some people up. I am truuely sorry about the death of these men. No...I am mad and refuse to shrug it off by saying "Oh well these terible things happen". That is how we avoid accountability. Mourning isn't enough, somebody need to do something.

Mike

[MikeFerrara]

Here is the url of a detailed report of the accident of Aug 2000.
www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/face200038.pdf

This report will answer many question and it will raise many. I don't make all this noise meaning disrespect. These families deserve more than condolances. If things don't change in a meaningful way they will only have company.

[MikeFerrara]

As you read the above report draw a diagram of what is being describe. Some things will not make sense at first. You may need to read it many times, I did. I read and went over it enough times to go a couple of days without sleep doing it. Ask me questions if you want I have memorized the entire report and I teach all these same searches as well as rescue. If you are unfamiliar with these search techniques you will miss some of the worst parts. Ask and I will explain.

[sharpenu]

Indypddiver:

A link from the Line of Duty Death page of firehouse.com states that it was a six week class for beginning divers. Link:

http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/in_jun14.html

I will restate my sadness at a brother firefighter's death, but I must repeat:
A GOOD AND PROPER TRAINING PROGRAM WILL NOT KILL TWO DIVERS IN AS MANY YEARS. PERIOD. If, in fact there are 3 to 5 deaths per year to rescue divers, that means your department alone is responsible for 20 to 33 percent of all rescue team deaths in the last two years. You don't consider that to be a problem? With those numbers, you have to wonder what the training division is thinking. Does your department not comply with 29CFR1910.134 which states:

"When self contained breathing apparatus are used in atmospheres that are imminently dangerous to life or health, standby men must be present with suitable rescue equipment."

Where was the safety team? How many logged dives are required before you allow personnel to participate in this course?
Do you have a written procedure for dive operations? Where is your local chamber? What qualifications does your scene commander or operations officer have? Accidents don't just happen from one event. They are usually the cumulative result of many small events. Two accidents in two years tells me IFD has a serious problem. As a rescue diver yourself, I would hope you would want to fix it.

[gentlegiant]

I am somewhat confused at what appears to be the lack of a National standard for public service rescue divers. It would seem to me that there would be some sort of certification process. like there is for an EMT, for public service rescue divers. I have been thinking of volunteering as a diver for the local police/fire departments, but I was not even going to consider it until I had reached SSI master diver status (AOW+rescue+50 logged dives) and had the search and recovery specialist plus maybe cavern training. To me this seems like the minimum skill set needed for this type of diving.

Are there any recognized standards for public service divers?

What sort of training requirements are there?

Also, in this latest case what were the training levels of the people overseeing the dive? Were they DM or instructor rated?

I am saddened by the loss, but I am trying to understand why this happened.

[indypddiver]

Mr. Ferrara,

I think you can understand that I cannot and will not comment directly on ANYTHING involving the particulars of the most recent accident involving Firefighter Paul Jolliff. The incident is very much under investigation and anything I'd have to say would only be conjecture at best anyway. Because of my position on the police team, and because I was present, I am a small part of that investigation...but a part none the less.

I was not present at the accident in 2000. The firefighter you refer to was Warren J.C. Smith, someone I knew well. I will do my best to answer the questions that I can answer, but again, please remember that anything I express is simply my own opinion.

Your message says that you "have participated in rescue training, search and recovery training, advanced training, and ice training of dive team members..." Are you insinuating that you are an instructor of such techniques? Do you dive for a living? I have participated in countless basketball games, but I'm not a coach. You say "they were all green, had poor buoyancy control and didn't in general dive enough to ever get good. The department requires what...6 dives per year? Well...that's a busy weekend." I'm sure you were once exactly as described above, everyone was at some point. Although you might have met a few public safety divers on a small, relatively quiet department somewhere in po-dunk Indiana, we took over 130 dive calls last year alone. I think I can safely assume that my department team is by far the busiest dive team in the state. I'm also curious as to how you personally have the ability to define diving experience? Does 20 dives make you "good?" Does 200? Ability comes with experience, yet all divers must start at the bottom.

You say our "training dives are not what we would call challenging by any strectch of the imagination..." How would you possibly know? Have you actually been to one of our training dives and participated? I didn't see you there. You base your information on a report about an accident and a newspaper article about another. Please do not confuse the class that was in session when Firefighter Jolliff died with the training dives we do as a department. They are completely separate and distinct entities.

You make reference to the diving that you and your friends do. Your profile says your an engineer. A diving engineer? You would certainly have to agree that cave diving (which is what I believe you do) is inherently the most dangerous of all diving. I sincerely applaud your personal safety record, however, its not the same everywhere. I admire your bravery at diving in cold water with low vis a quarter of a mile back in a cave. We all know cave divers are the coolest.

Mr. Ferrara, if you are the first and last word on this particular message board, I apologize for interrupting. I can't wait for the book.

indypddiver

[indypddiver]

sharpenu,

You make extremely good points with your last message. I want to clarify something right away. I AM NOT a member of the fire department's dive team, I am a member of the police department's team. Therefore, "my" team is not responsible for any of the statistics you pointed out. We do, however, train and take calls often together.

As I stated in the previous message, I cannot comment on anything related to Paul Jolliff's accident. If I could, I would certainly try to answer your questions. As far as the police department team...yes, we do comply with 29CFR1910.34. Yes, we do have extensive written SOPs. There is a hyperbaric chamber located in atleast one major hospital (Methodist) in downtown Indianapolis. There may be more, I'm not sure. The dive commanders for "my" team have decades of experience and have more certifications related to diving AND leading dive teams than I can count. Our commander has been with the team since its beginning, over 28 years ago and the team consists of over 200 years of diving experience together. Indianapolis is a city with a metro area of approximately 1.5 million. Both the fire and police departments are large departments in relation to the national average and our workloads are extremely busy. However, there are numerous departments that cover other areas of the city and county as well. We are not a bunch of part timers, waiting around for the "big one."

SEE PART TWO

[indypddiver]

I completely agree that a good training program should help prevent accidents such as we've had in the last two years. I also think that the training that both departments provide does this very well. I cannot argue the fact that IFD (and in turn the PD) has sustained terrible losses, nor am I making any excuses what so ever. I do, however, ask you to view these events in a analytical manner rather than rush to judgement. If you work for a decent-sized department, then you know that the stories and articles you see and read about your department, in the media, only tell half the story.

Most importantly, to EVERYONE who wishes to converse with me about anything, I am not attempting to attack anyone's opinion or say I know definitively what's right or wrong in any matter. I am extremely willing to share ideas in a positive manner rather than in the antagonistic manner in which I think these messages are going. I don't have the answers. I wish I did.

As a side note: sharpenu...Paul Jolliff was laid to rest with the highest of honors, deserving of a man who honored us all with his presence. We did it right.

[JamesK]

Originally posted by indypddiver
We all know cave divers are the coolest.


And don't you forget it!!!!!!!! ;)

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

I have no desire to insult you or any member of your team or proffession. I am an instructor and I do teach search and recovery, rescue, ice, full face mask, dry suit and gobs of other stuff. Last year I issued over 100 certifications many of which were in the above mentioned disciplines. I am certified as an instructor by two agencies the International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers and The Proffessional Association of Diving Instructors. My knowlege of search techniques and rescue Techniques is up to date and I get plenty of practiced. My credentials would establish me as an expert in the teaching and execution of these searches and the techniques used in assisting a team member in trouble. Asside from teaching these things I have performed numerous assists and rescues all of which were successful. I have managed a paniced diver at depth. I am in the water alot and see alot. I conduct over two hundred dives per year. Anything I say I can back up with references to texts and training standards. My intent is not to upset you but to somehow help keep you alive. The osha report leads one to believe that these guys are trained to drop the weights of a distressed diver under water. We do not teach this as a viable procedure unless the diver is so heavy that he can not be raised to the surface otherwise. It is important that the victem be brought up in a controled manner to avoid pulmanary baratrauma. I can also tell you that the instructor is responsible for maintaining control. Even if the instructor chooses a vantage point which is out of the water he must be prepared to respond if the need arises. My statements are consistant with the training standards of all agencies regardless of the level of training taking place. These divers died while participating in training which is comparable in nature to the training we conduct all the time. It was the simple stuff not being correct that got these guys not some psd specific thing that I wouldn't know about. I may even be aware of some major problems that exist in public safety diving that you are not aware of. You might investigate them. I may even be a useful resource and be able to direct you to others. Unless you are an instructor there are , I believe, important issues you would unlikely be aware of. I do have a day job as diving doesn't pay the bills. I also own a dive shop and teach almost every day.
Mike

[MikeFerrara]

The only reason I mentioned caves was to help establish my familiarity with the problems associated with the use of lines and potentially stressful environments. I do not dive in the warm clear Caribbean I dive in the cold cloudy waters and caves of Indiana and Missouri. It had nothing to do with being cool.

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

Another bit of info that you and others may be interested in....
I was one of 5 instructors nation wide who were asked by the Indianapolis Star to review the osha report on the accident which occured in Aug of 2000. I walked them through my analysis backing up my position with training standars and texts throughout. We realize that a report is dependant on the recalection of participants and what they are willing to devulge. The recomendations at the end of the report would lead one to believe that the investigators understood what went wrong and asked for the appropriate corrective actions (at least in part). However, it seems they tried very hard not to place blame resulting in a lack of accountability. This is my opinion but the same instructor was involved both times and it seems (no details yet) that at least some of the same mistakes were repeated. The instructor aparently never even saw the report or the recomendations that resulted. This presents the apearance that there was no effort made to implement the recomended corrective actions. Some of them were no doubt in place all along but not all. It is my understanding that the other four instructors gave analysis which were in line with mine. I am told that all of this info was edited out of print due to space/political concerns. Here lies one of the major problems. These incedences and the practices that lead to them are rarely if ever subjected to the evaluation of an independant expert (someone who knows diving and dive training) with no department or political ties. Everything is kept all in the family. It is very hard for someone outside the family, regardless of expertise to contribute. To All...If you are a Public safety diver you may die because of someones personal agenda or misplaced loyalties! The police know law inforcement. Firemen know how to put out fires. I and my collegues know diving and dive training. This is what we do. I for one desire to contribute in a positive as apposed to a negative manner. Our chance to contribute, however, is always after the fact. Saying I told you so all the time is not very satisfying. Being right is no fun when someone must die to prove it. I train many who have a desire to join their local team. As things are all I can do is to discourage them. The IUCRR (International underwater Cave rescue and Recovery) has a data base which includes public safety diving accidents. Check it out if you can. I know this is all talk but that is all I can do, so I will. Some might benefit by listening. I wish someone would prove me wrong that would be less frustrating.

Mike

[MikeFerrara]

Originally posted by indypddiver

You say our "training dives are not what we would call challenging by any strectch of the imagination..." How would you possibly know? Have you actually been to one of our training dives and participated?



No but I would welcome an invetation. And...indypddiver, I extend to you an invitation to dive with us or participate in one of our rescue classes anytime. It couldn't hurt to see how the other side lives. Believe it or not, I am on your side

Mike

[ericfine50]

Public Safety Diving has its ups and downs. When I worked for Sartek Industries and we would attend the FDIC show in Indy and other PS shows, you could see the difference between the professional teams and the volunteer based teams. Some of these guys were diving in contaminated water w/ wetsuits and standard scuba! They just did not understand the need for other training. Then you have several agancies and they all have slightly different approches to equipment and procedures (Lifeguard Systems in one). This was an accident and maybe the IFD needs to re-evaluate the training methods or increase the number of dives. I don't think there is one clear cut answer.

Eric

[Dryglove]

I have to say i agree with mike on this issue.I am also in law enforcement but do not serve on a dive team.I do serve on a swat team.Any kind of training accident is unacceptable.I do understand that **** happens.One thing that is drilled in to us is safety safety safety!!! To me two deaths in two years on training dives are unacceptable.Murpy is always knocking on your back door waiting to rear his ugly head especially on a real life call out.

Im not bad mouthing anybody as i was not there.I am just sorry that person died.I do know that a lot of teams(not necessarily diving teams) have a serious ego problem and do not seek training outside there agency.Somebody like mike could be very beneficial to a dive team.It never hurts to have someone outside your department evaluate your standards and training and ask his recomendations for changes or improvements.If you like it you adapt it into your standards if not oh well.You might think your dive team is the sh*t and not realize how screwed up you really are.Im not saying this is the case but i have seen it from other teams that failed to seek any kind of training or insights from an outside source.The result was people died for no reason.

Please dont take this post as insulting or pointing fingers.I realize you fight as you train or in your case dive as you train therefore you dive under the worst conditions.Train for the worst and hope for the best.We had a saying in the army,sweat more in peace time and bleed less in battle.Always beware of murphy,remember he is watching every move you make!!

[indypddiver]

Mr. Farrara,

I appreciate you last message and agree completely with everything you said. After reading your credentials, I would certainly say that you are more than qualified to speak about this issue. I apologize for the slight hostility expressed to you by me in my last message. I think you can understand that, under the circumstances, I was a little defensive about people pointing fingers and placing blame before it was warranted.

I also agree that there are obvious problems with keeping things in house rather than opening up our training and techniques for evaluation from qualified outside experts. Thank you for offering up your knowledge and experience for our dive team. I will certainly pass your offer along to those in charge (which I am not). I want to express to you that many of the problems associated with receiving outside training from people such as yourself, are not at all dive related. I know for a fact that the vast majority of guys on my team, myself included, would jump at the chance at receiving the type of technical traing of which you speak.

Continued....

[indypddiver]

Most of the major hurdles in getting that accomplished are bureaucratic. Getting a department to ok such training, then pay for it is a nightmare. We're lucky if we get enough money for equipment issues and other vital needs as it is. I can honestly say that big egos do not get in the way of progress on my team, other things do however. I have never once heard anyone on my team say that we're trained enough or that they'd be opposed to bigger and better ideas. The fact of the matter is that although our dive team is vital to public safety, no one in a position to do so wants to spend the money to make us the best we can be.

Mr. Ferrara, I also printed off copies of the report that you provided regarding the accident in August 2000 and handed them out to all members of the team. Some were aware and had seen it, some were completely oblivious to its existance. Its information like that that will keep us alive. I sincerely thank you for that. By the way, much of the report made its way into the paper today.

I plan to research all of the topics that you listed and present them to the team. I also plan to suggest the idea of bringing you, or someone like you, in to better prepare the team.

Thanks again,

indypddiver

[indypddiver]

lal7176,

As with Mr. Ferrara, I also completely agree with your statements. Any training accident is more than unacceptable. I did not take your post as insulting at all. You simply speak the truth. You are definitely right when you say that egos sometime get in the way of intelligent progress. I have not found that to be true of my particular team, but then again, I obviously have a biased view of things.

I'd really love to have Mr. Ferrara take a look at our practices and evaluate our training, however, I am not the guy in the position to get that accomplished. I can, however, suggest it!

Thanks for your comments.

indypddiver

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

There is no need to apologize to me. The subject stirs emotion, even for me and I didn't know anyone who was lost. I can only try to imagin what it is like for those who are closer. I however do apologize if I was insensitive. I do not have all the answers. My own training and experience has its limits. I am aware of many of the problems that dive teams are faced with. For starters, and I don't think you or your teammates need anyones permission for this, I would be more than willing to go over this report (or just talk diving philosophy in general) with anyone interested (it's public record). We could do so without any team member disclosing anything not meant to be public. If a diver walks away with questions for those in charge someone may benefit. I know that some team divers (especially the new divers) have done little diving outside of the team and just having another source of info may help. I do not charge for free advice. This is an open invitation. One of my former instructors is also police academy instructor who teaches diving among other things. He may also be a very aproachable source. If you are interested send me a PM and I will give you contact info. We are in Lafayette (no connection to Larry who used to be on the levy). I get asked that alot. more later, I have a visitor.

Mike

[Dryglove]

I give mike a big two thumbs up!! Its not everyday someone is willing to donate there time and knowledge in the way you have.We also get lucky from time to time and have some very experienced personnel come and show us there tricks of the trade.Our department ussually didnt care as long as it didnt cost them money.Typical BS.

Im glad to see your team doesnt have an ego problem cause i have seen some bad ones.I know of one team that lost three members on one callout due to stupidity,lack of training and serious ego problems.Had they seeked training outside there own clique they would be alive today.When an outside agency investigated several supervisors were relieved of duty.They totally defended what they had done but when the real experts came in,they were all ate up.When questioned about there tactics and decisions it came down to the fact they thought they were extremely well trained and didnt need any outside training.I myself wether diving or work seek any and all training available to me.A lot of time we donate our time off with no pay just to get our act together and stay focused as a team.Another saying is train hard...fight easy.

I really hope things work out with your department and mike.I know i would do anything possible including my offtime to see his aspect on diving and safety.Goodluck to you all and be safe!! I also commend your diving team for the risks you take to help others in trouble.The average person or diver will probably never fully realize what you guys risk just to get the job done.

[wrecNcaver]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lal7176
[B]I give mike a big two thumbs up!! Its not everyday someone is willing to donate ........




As I read the threads of this post, what strikes me the most is the passion everyone has for diving and the safety of all divers!!! As most of us read of a death, we morn the loss of a fellow diver and the feel the sadness of their family and friends. Discussions such as this focuses the spotlight on making sure that any knowledge learned by a death can benifit all divers.

Many of us my not participate in posting to these threads, but the knowledge is greatly appreciated even on such a sad and tragic event. Stay passionate, stay safe.

[MikeFerrara]

Here is what we would like to do. I don’t know if there will be any interest but we’ll see. First off, I believe that many public safety divers just don’t dive enough. More is better. I also believe that they don’t get out enough. They need more varied experience with different divers and exposure to different techniques. Knowledge is power as they say. I think that if the individual diver is proficient enough he/she will be far safer regardless of what is done by other divers or management. As civilians we are free to choose our instructors and teammates. One of the fundamentals we teach is to choose well. The public safety diver doesn’t have that luxury. I won’t enter a cave with just anyone. This fact alone increases their risk making an individual that much more responsible for their own safety.

We want to sponsor an ongoing workshop for public safety divers. The purpose is to provide a forum for the sharing of dive related information and techniques. Subjects can be anything of interest to attendees. Group dives will also be planned. The dives will be planned based on interest, ability and experience of the attendees. I spoke with a former instructor of mine who is a police academy instructor, public safety diving instructor; technical instructor and full cave diver and he has agreed to participate. He has law enforcement experience and training that I simply don’t have. There will be no cost or obligation of any kind; therefore, department approval should not be an issue. I also have a fairly well stocked reference library, which I will make available. The intent is not to provide formal training or certifications but to provide free access to dive professionals and information. Also this is not in any way meant to be a substitute for any training provided or required by any department.

Our pool of rental equipment is primarily used to teach classes and is not very large. However, based on availability, we will provide free use of equipment to dive team members who do not own equipment or have access to department equipment. The intent is to encourage them to dive. This includes tanks and air. Our intent is not to get involved in public safety diving but to encourage public safety divers be more involved in diving.

I’m not sure of the best way to get word of this out so if anyone knows of anyone in the general vicinity of Lafayette Indiana let them know. If anyone is interested let me know. One is enough to start.

Shop phone 765 446-1306

[dvleemin]

You're an amazing guy Mike!!!!

[Dryglove]

Way to go mike!! Public safety divers would have to be foolish not to jump at this oppurtunity.I know i would!! Im not exactly to sure what type of store you run or if you even do mail orders but i would be more than happy to send you some future bussiness from me and fellow divers to help support your efforts.

[DeepSeaDan]

Yet another example of the value of this forum...it is truly a benefit to us all.

My $.02...

To put it simply, Pipedope & a few others stated the real solution to this quandry. Surface-supplied diving, with its' inherent communications, standby divers, redundant air supplies etc., etc. is the way to go for public safety diving ( an exception to this philosophy is outlined in the following paragraph ). Expensive? You bet. But I say, if your dept. cannot or will not afford this equipment & requisite training, get out of the business. Contract out such work to commercial operators trained & equipped to conduct such diving ops. This from a Firefighter, former commercial diver & Scuba Instructor.

My department had a dive team, but it was disbanded long before I came aboard. The Provincial Police handle body recovery work. I am currently trying to create a rapid response system for VERY LIMITED u/w rescue capability to complement our already considerable list of emergency response capability, which includes a well equipped & capable marine rescue component. I am thinking of quick deployment scuba rescue service confined to a strict set of criteria ( depth, search area, dive time etc., etc. ). Essentially, I'd like to make us capable of performing u/w rescue of witnessed drownings in uncomplicated areas ( ie: no fast water, flow control areas or other known hazardous locales ). Anyone with any ideas in that direction I'd appreciate hearing from.

My condoloences to Brother Jolliff's family & all his coworkers.

Sincerely,
Daniel J. Vale

[MikeFerrara]

Why don’t we ask the fox what happened to the chicken?
Friday afternoon 6/22 I received a call from someone claiming to be from Fox 59 in Indianapolis. She said she was a diver and had been following this thread and wanted to talk to me about the report on the Aug 2000 accident. We started but she was interrupted and said she would call back. She called back and was interrupted again. She called back again and asked about my credentials. I gave her the highlights. She said that she had been talking to someone in Colorado and they had never heard of me. I believe her since I don’t know anyone out there other than one of my uncles and I don’t know why she would talk to him. She then asked what the url of this board was and asked if anyone could get on. But wait…she had told me she was following the thread. I do know that the “International Association of Dive Rescue Specialists are centered there. I never heard of these folks until I saw them mentioned in the paper recently. Like I said before they keep this stuff all in the family. I believe they are looking in all the wrong places for answers. Why would you ask the fox what happened to the chicken?

Many of us know the names of some of the greatest divers on the face of the planet. I have not seen any of them quoted. If you want to know why things go wrong underwater you should talk to people who spend their time underwater. They are forming all kinds of committees to report to committees. I wonder, do any of them dive or teach diving? Have any of them ever managed a panicked diver underwater. Have any of them seen first hand what kind of things lead to panic?

The other day there was a picture in the Indianapolis Star depicting police divers at work. The picture showed a diver with what looked like an alternate on a long hose banded to his single tank behind him. The regulator was dangling on a good deal of hose straight down along his tank near the bottom. I submit that this is photographic evidence of a significant part of the real problem. When this diver or his buddy is hurt they will form a committee. No one with the experience to understand will be involved.

The article stated that they had taken safety measures that might have prevented the other deaths like having backup divers and ambulances on hand. I guess only a diver would know what a bunch of BS this is. The only prevention is a much higher degree of diving skill and avoiding the mistakes in the first place. Once you make one to many mistakes underwater and a diver panics the chances of correcting the situation are slim to none. They might start by straightening up their equipment configuration. It’s always the simple things that matter most.

[TheDivingBear]

....first, I am not a rescue diver, nor am I in the public service. Heck, I am not even open water certified (yet). But, I do live in Indy, I am taking lessons, and I've followed this story as best I've been able to.

In my humble opinion, I believe that most of the divers on the FD and PD need experience. I agree with Mike, I saw the photo and had to ask myself what they were thinking. Some of the divers interviewed dive for the job, not because they like to. They do no diving outside the call of duty. Sure, they get in some practice, but they need more. They need to do this because they like to, not for hazardous duty pay (at least some miltary divers get paid a little extra for diving).

Again, in my opinion, I cannot think of anything more scarey than something unexpected happening when I am 70ft below the water. My instinct, and many other novice divers may agree, is to surface by any means possible. If that includes losing the weightbelt, so be it. BTW, PADI does teach you to use the right handed quick release belts for just that purpose. This instinct, I think, is the brain saying, "Hey Dummy, the air is up there!" Someone else on the board, though, pointed out to me that my closest air is not a tthe surface, but on my back. Knowing that, I fight that urge, that instinct, to surface and work through the problem. Yes, I still pop every now and then, but I am getting better at it.

I read a thread on the board that described a training techique in a confined area where paper bags were placed in the masks to simulate limited viz and instructors swam around removing fins, turning off air, and in general causing chaos to simulate various real life situations. I believe the thread said this was an OW class, but I would dispute that as I cannot see any instructor doing that to a bunch of beginners. However, as I get more experience, I would love to particiapte in a class like this. It is in managing these types of problems in a more controlled enviroment that we, as divers, are more prepared for real life problems.

Lastly, but most importantly, my condolences to the family of a hero. I did not know him, but the blessings bestowed by him and his comrads-in-arms are felt in our lives everyday. May his sacrafice bring to light the weaknesses in us all to make us better in whatever we do.

Bear

[MikeFerrara]

TheDivingBear,

Read a little further into the text. A buoyant ascent is a last stitch effort to survive only. Reference the rescue Diver text. Even when surfacing an unresponsive diver dropping the weights is only recommended when the diver is too heavy to surface otherwise. Dropping weights is, however, recommended to establish pos. buoyancy at the surface if the bc doesn't do the trick. Rapid ascents are to be avoided, they are dangerouse. Some of your aparent misconception are why I encourage everyone to go at least as far as rescue diver. I brought up a panicked diver yesterday. The diver tore the reg out of my mouth and, somewhere along the line, spit out their own. All my efforts were directed toward slowing the divers ascent (and my own). You can live a while without air. You can live after aspirating a little water. If you ascend to quickly your lungs blow up and you die. If at any time you think a buoyant or rapid ascent is the answer you are probably not thinking. And if it is the only option left you have already made so many mistakes that your chances are not good.

Mike

Mike

[TheDivingBear]

Mike, I agree it IS a last ditch effort, but it is taught. And, if you are not thinking, your are right, it may be the last thing you do.

[indypddiver]

Hello everyone,

With regards to the photo seen in the Indianapolis Star and the "dangling hoses", what you saw was a technique taught all over the United States, in public safety diving, designed to assist a diving buddy who is out of air at depth. Because the majority of the diving we do is done in zero visibility, we place the spare octo there so that our buddy can easily locate it in case of an emergency, even when he cannot see. Its a simple drill...find your buddy's head, follow it down the tank, where you will then find his spare octo at the bottm right of his tank. Its not brain science. The spare octos are also easily within reach of the person dawning them. I completely realize that this may sound bazaar to those of you who have not had experience in zero visiblity, or experience in somewhat confined spaces, but believe me, there is a logical reason. I know, I know...I'm going to hear a thousand reasons why the octos shouldn't be there or how this goes against PADI reccommendations, etc., but its extremely difficult to communicate under water in zero vis or find a spare octo on a diver who doesn't necessarily realize you have a problem and cannot see you when you do. Again, it comes down to philosophy. I saw the picture. You cannot see well enough to know that the octo is secured.

[indypddiver]

DivingBear,

No offense, but how would you possibly know whether or not the FD or PD have enough experience? You state you're not Open Water certified? You also state that guys do it for hazardous duty pay and that they do not dive off duty. That's complete hogwash. We do not (the PD) get paid anything extra to be a member of the dive team and all members do so because they happen to love diving and want to be part of something we deem important. EVERY member of my team dives and has dived extensively off duty. That's how we arrived as members of the team in the first place.

I am not trying to put down anyone's opinion, but for Pete's sake, DO NOT post messages that are completely false and lack any factual basis what-so-ever. Yes, I realize you are free to post anything you like...that's obvious enough.

Until YOU get a level of experience beyond floating around in a pool, I'd stay off of this topic.

Sincerely frustrated,

indypddiver

[Burke]

when someone that has ZERO idea what the hell he is talking about gets on here and starts telling people what he thinks of their diving technique. Advice and opinions from extremely knowledgeable people like Mr. Ferrara is great. Advice and opinions from people that don't know what the hell they are talking about is a little annoying. Especially so when they are saying something inflammatory or insulting such as the case with TheDivingBear.
I am reminded of the saying,
"It is better to say nothing at all and let people think you are an idiot, then to say something and remove all doubt."

[Dryglove]

As in any profession you have the good with the bad.I went diving today in a lake(about 5 ft vis) with a county sherriff who is a part of his agancies dive team.He has several years experience diving.He is currently serving as an ssi dive con.He is extremely pofessional and very safety minded along with having his sh*t together. Unfortunately he is not the example that all public safety divers thrive to be.But he is an example of a public safety diver using every tool available to better himself and his team.

[TheDivingBear]

Originally posted by indypddiver
DivingBear,

No offense, but how would you possibly know whether or not the FD or PD have enough experience? You state you're not Open Water certified? You also state that guys do it for hazardous duty pay and that they do not dive off duty. That's complete hogwash. We do not (the PD) get paid anything extra to be a member of the dive team and all members do so because they happen to love diving and want to be part of something we deem important. EVERY member of my team dives and has dived extensively off duty. That's how we arrived as members of the team in the first place.

As I stated, it was my opinion. I never claimed it to be fact. I know very few people in IPD or IFD and perhaps I was a bit out of line. If so, I apologize. I was raised around the miltary and the MPs and other emergency response teams were paid extra (called hazardous duty pay). This pay was a good motivator and I believe that pay exists in the public services for teams that above and beyond standard duties.



Until YOU get a level of experience beyond floating around in a pool, I'd stay off of this topic.

Sincerely frustrated,

indypddiver

I apologize for being a source of your frustration. I hope that I never find myself in a situation where I need your services; but if I do, I hope that this would be behind us.

Bear

[indypddiver]

DivingBear,

As you can probably understand, with the events of the past two weeks, the IPD and IFD dive teams have come under alot of scrutiny...deservedly so, I might add. I did not take anything you said as purposely insulting, I just wanted an opportunity to set the record straight. I appreciate the fact that you're on this message board talking about safety and what we can do to be better. That can never be a bad thing.

I assure you, if the unfortunate day ever comes that you need my or the dive team's service, you will get the very best we can do. That's a promise.

indypddiver

[MikeFerrara]

An update.
We are trying to organize the workshop I mentioned before. We're inventing it as we go. The indi fd sounded kind of luke warm on the idea. The person we spoke to didn't know how many would be interested in doing it without getting paid for their time. It seems that learning may not be taking place. Any diver that does not come to terms with the fact that, when under water, "only you are responsible for you" "only you can swim for you" "only you can breath for you" has a hard row to hoe.

I had some spots open up in a rescue class at the last minute. We offered them to area public safety divers for the cost of the books. indi fd pointed out that all training was on hold. Of course if a guy wanted to go diving on his own time I don't think they could stop him. I am not doing this to save the G## D### city or county money. I need it more than they do. I'm doing it so divers can do something without needing department money and without spending their own. I'm trying to make it easy and take away the excuses.

[Dryglove]

Its all about politics and liability.I see it all the time.Its really sad they would keep these guys from getting some excellent training.As for those who dont want to volunteer any time without getting paid for it,i frown upon them.That right there shows they use it for extra pay,personal gain within there dept for future promotions and such or as a stature type of thing.As far as the ones that wont do any extra training without getting paid should get a boot in there a**. Why would you turn down an almost free training to better yourself and possibly save your own life or someone elses.Its really sad sometimes to see such a lack of desire and eagerness.

[MikeFerrara]

I should point out that, at this point, we can't make the offer to the individual divers because we don't know who they are. Therefore, what we got was one persons opinion of how the program would be recieved. With training halted (by the city) the department probably can't direct them to the rescue class. I'm hoping that as divers find out about this stuff we will have more direct contact. As of now not too many even know what we are trying to do. We have contacted two departments but the info may not have found it's way to the divers. We sent out press releases and did receive cofirmation that it would be printed but they didn't say whan and I haven't seen it.

As avid divers who talk to other avid divers, most of you know what training is available where. In contrast, A newer diver on a dive team may not aware of all that is available. Also keep in mind that being a firemen and policemen is no way to get rich. For a person with a family and all that goes with it paying for a lot of training out of pocket may not be an option. Having crazy work hours can also make it difficult.

These are some of the reasons that when a student expresses interest in this kind of work that I try to educate them on how to pick a dive team. If the training and equipment and standards are not up to snuff (the diver needs to have a feel for what this means) my advice is to skip it. When I do a dive everything must be just right. I am prepared is all respects. If I feel I am not prepared, I call the dive. In order to make a good go/no go decision you need to have a good definition of what prepared is.

In my personal diving I won't dive with someone who has chosen not to learn the rescue skills that they need to help themselves and maybe me (not refering to new divers who just haven't got there yet). I don't understand sending a team into a dangerous invironment without those skills (rescue training) but some teams do it.
This will no doubt be an education for me also.

[Dryglove]

Whats that old saying...you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink it.You put the offer on the table.Its there for them if they choose.Hopefully they can bypass there upper echelon and receive the training on there own once word gets out.

[wrangler76]

I am a simple caveman.... I know not the ways of the world. But I do appreciate all the constructive conversation realting to Public Safety Dive Rescue. I began my diving career in the military and it has drawn me into the world of public safety diving over the last three years. I am interested in any SOPs/Predive Checklists that have been developed by agencies for their diving operations. Please email me at br*spamguard*ice@gorge.net. Thank you all for your time and interest in the advancement of Public Safety diving.

[Northeastwrecks]

I am curious about the dangling octo's discussed earlier.

Would a long hose/bungeed backup work in this situation. My thought is that the distressed buddy need only find his buddies head, at which point he/she could take the long primary while the other diver goes to a backup on a short hose.

I do not mean this as criticism. I seek only enlightenment.

[randyjoy]

Northeastwrecks: We started out using the "standard method" (octo in the golden triangle); our PS instructors never taught the tank/octo method. We have now switched to the long hose/necklace method. Works great even in no vis (which we "see" a lot of).

[indypddiver]

Northeastwrecks,

In reference to your question...the main factor of why a long hose or bungeed backup would not work in public safety diving situations (atleast in my experience) is the fact that we wear full face masks while diving. The full face masks are secured on our head/face with five seperate straps that are supposed to be pulled as tight as possible to prevent breathing air from escaping and to prevent contaminated water from entering. Therefore, there's not a "main" to give to a partner in distress. If my full face mask comes off or is ripped off, that's a bad thing! Anyway, like I said before, the octos are very much secured (although you could not see that in the photo to which Mr. Ferrara refered) and are well within reach of the person dawning it.

[randyjoy]

Excellent point! Our guys haven't been taught the other methods yet because we haven't been able to afford the full face masks with communications yet!

Whole different ball game.

Using a regular mask/reg, I 'd say definately the long hose/necklace. Works great for us. With a full face mask, I'll just have to see what we'll be taught.

[Northeastwrecks]

Thanks for the information. The Public Safety divers that I have seen in our area do not, to my knowledge, have full face masks. I agree that a full face mask would make my question unworkable.

[Jetwrench]

Indy & Mike,
Thank you both for this thread. I have read through the posts, and hope that you two can work out a way to "get it all together".
I wondered, at first, about Mike after his first reply. But 20-20 hindsite and his VERY impressive comments soon changed my opinion. Indy is obviously dedicated, and the combo of the two will only result in a safer dive program. I can only hope the beaurocrats will see the advantages of a program like Mike's.
As a rescue diver myself, I applaud you both and wish you both this: Dive Safe! Dive often! God bless the Jolliff family during this time, and know that he will be appreciated and missid, regardlesss of whether I knew him or not. A buddy has left us. Mike, take us forward!

John aka "Smack" in VT

[devilfish]

As I am reading through this thread I am deeply saddened by the loss of a public safety diver. One is too many. Without being on site and seing a full report, from the post I can see a few faults that might have contributed to the incident. I am also concerned with the differances in opinions about public safety diving search/recovery techniques. Which leads me to see that too often training alone even if it is frequent is not enough, if training has inadequate techniques and command. Too many opinions have no room for such training. Good training is difficult to get since public funds are often not available to train teams. Somehow those that risk their lifes to recover a dead body are the most neglected by towns.
Anyway, I commend all those here that are eager to train. I suggest contacting an training agency to conduct the training. There are several. One that comes to mind is Lifeguard Systems. They are out of NY but are often enough training in Indiana. They truly know what they are doing.
Public safety diving search rescue/recovery is a totally different beast from sport diving or rescue. The bottom line is "when the job is done, we must go home"

[devilfish]

For those interested you might want to visit www.teamlgs.com. There is a good book from them "Public Safety Diving"
By Andrea Zaferes & Walt "Butch" Hendrick of LifeGuard Systems.

State-of-the-art Public Safety Diving Rescue/Recovery team deployment and operation techniques that keep rescuers and victims as safe as possible. The pros and cons of different commercially available equipment are presented. Patient care information for everyone from the first responder to EMS personnel is given in an easy to read format.

It's a small investment for a lot of good information and knowledge.

[Dwain]

oops just noticed the last post date..sorry

[medic13]

I read this with great sadness , and feel it should of or could of been avoided in the first place , first the fire dept needs to take responsibility for its training, why is a diver with so few dives even being a Public safety diver yet, he hasn't even had enough dives or time in the water to be really comfortable or now his equipment and skills enough to even be a Public safety diver, most of the dive teams I dive with have a minimum amount of dives and additional dive training before they even start the training to become Public safety diver . That is one of the major problems with most Dive team, most of there true members aren't ready yet period!!!!!!!!!!!!!But still my heart goes out to the family!!!!!!!

[medic13]

dont matter others will learn I hope LOL refrence the date.

[Snowbear]

Nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread if you have something to contribute!

I've noticed the same thing on the 2 PSD teams I'm sort of involved with (I'm not a member of either). The majority of the members got certified just to get on the team and outside of those cert dives and the twice a year training dives, they don't dive. At all. Callouts are infrequent and most of those are surface rescues. Every once in a great while I talk someone into going fun diving. One guy I was even diving with semi-regularly, but then his wife had a difficult pregnancy and now a new kid, so he doesn't dive at all any more.

I think the guys on the paid FD team will be OK. They stick with their SOGs and training. The ones on the volunteer team in the area I live do not. They have a new chief in charge now and it sounds like changes are happening (though slowly), so hopefully they will get their act together before they have a serious accident!

[Gary D.]

Like most of the other threads there is both good and bad but a lot to learn here.

Way too many dive teams around the country are ill equipped and poorly trained. Others are very well equipped and well trained. This goes for both full-time and volunteer teams. But the full-time teams NORMALLY have better control of the team and dictate how you’re trained and equipped.

Most volunteer teams are geared more towards recovery diving than rescue/recovery. Without having a take home vehicle, that you can legally run code with, rescue call-outs are not that effective.

Training is so very important. There has to be a lot of it. We train 20 hours a month 8-9 mounts a year, plus some off duty stuff. Some teams train once or twice a year and that is inviting disaster. Some of the training is nothing more than a Bar-B-Q and a play diving get together someone calls training. Training is just that and it needs to be serious training.

Equipment is another issue. For recovery there can be a mix of equipment. For rescue all the equipment needs to be the same. Recovery can and should be slow and well thought out. Rescue on the other-hand is what you night call controlled chaos. Most volunteer team members just can’t afford to purchase all the same equipment.

On duty calls aren’t as taxing on you as off duty calls. On duty your ready to respond at the drop of a hat. But off duty, in the middle of the night, out of a dead sleep, when that pager goes off you mind has to get focused quickly.

I get focused by grabbing the pager and brushing my teeth while I read the message. Sorry but I need to do a quickie brush. Normally out the door in less than two minutes. Into the car and on the radio. Now you’re flying down the road, code, out of a dead sleep trying to plan a dive.

Get to the dive site where you may be the first unit on scene or the 20th. Your arrival order is very important on what your job is going to be. Nobody has to tell you what your job is, you just know from the prior training. If you’re a primary or back-up diver you need to be fast and accurate from this point on. Our team strikes for being in the water in less than three minutes, from our time of arrival at the scene.

Some of you are going to think that no big deal. It isn’t hard if you’re in warm water but we are cold all year long so it in dry suits 99% of the time.

Conditions have to be right and safe for us so it all boils down to Risk vs Benefit. We do not hang our butts out to dry here. We weren’t the ones who caused the situation so we are not going to add to the body count.

We always debrief afterwards. It may be at the scene, at the office or over a beer but debriefing is a very important step in the team’s mental survival.

Pay is another issue. Volunteer’s normally have jobs that pay the bills. Some can leave anytime where others can’t leave work at all. My team, on the other hand, is highly paid for this activity. The department supplies and maintains our equipment and we get a Taxman's shattering 50 cents an hour.

Our fire departments are geared for surface rescue while we are geared for surface rescue and diving. We work very closely together and the problems we have are so trivial we don’t even worry about them. One example on how well we work together is when they built the first new rescue truck. They came to us and wanted to know what we needed and where it should be on the truck. What our air needs were and how to run surface supplied air off the truck. Today all the rescue trucks, all 6 are set up identically to aid us. They will also go anywhere we need them to go, even out of state which we do quite often.

One dive a few years ago took us to centeral Montana. We flew in choppers and the fire department was enroute with a rescue truck to support us. Thats cooperation.

It takes a good working relationship with other departments who might be involved as well as training, equipment and a good support from your own administration. We are so lucky. Our SRU and Dive teams are top priority with my department.

Gary D.

[metaldector]

"Capt. Mario Garza, spokesman for the INdianapolis Fire Department, said the department made minor changes to its procedures after the accident, but some steps -- including checking divers' air supplies before submerging -- were adopted."

Hummm, checking the diver's air supply. And this was a minor change. I hope the person writing this story misquoted, otherwise Capt. Garza doesn't know zip about diving.
A sorry tale, and a sad death.

[indypddiver]

I'm glad to see that this post continues nearly two years after the actual incident. It is vital that all of us as divers, Public Safety Divers or not, discuss topics such as this and try to make things better and safer.

To anyone skimming through the posts, I am an Indianapolis POLICE Department diver and was present soon after the initial report and was quickly in the water searching for the IFD diver who lost his life nearly two years ago. In ref. to metaldector's comment about "minor changes" let me say this...that quote was taken out of context more than I can possibly express. I have nothing to hide here.

Since the accident, one of two accidents involving IFD divers in the last four years, sweeping changes were made in both the IFD and IPD dive teams. The National Academy of Police Diving (really the only agency of its kind at the time) was immediately called in as an outside agency to evaluate and make reccomendations regarding how the teams functioned and trained. All IFD diving was suspended immediately pending review. Obviously, the NAPD reccomended several changes in the way that IFD conduct their diving/training operations. At the same time, the incident was reported to OSHA, IOSHA, and NIOSH, all of which came to Indianapolis and conducted indepth investigations. After all reports were filed, IFD fired their outside dive trainer, the same trainer present at both accidents. IFD then began an extensive search for a new training method. Both IFD and IPD, as well as many of the departments in the surrounding area, adopted a training philosophy developed by Dive Rescue International. DRI is easily the premier public safety diving agency in the country. It has been a long, tough road. The change has been night and day.

I will not continue to bore you with the other details of how things have changed, but believe me when I say that they have changed. Indianapolis is a large city with large police and fire departments. We train extensively and are extremely busy dive teams. We take the business of public safety diving extremely seriously. Please do not get the impression that we are a small, backwater, fly by the seat of our pants operation. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anyone would like to discuss anything else related to this topic, I'd be glad to answer your questions the best that I can. Thanks.

[jagfish]

Just read the initial post of this thread. I hope this was just skewed reporting...

Last paragraph:
"...the department made minor changes to its procedures after the accident, but some steps -- including checking divers' air supplies before submerging -- were adopted."

A NEW step, that was a MINOR change? If checking your air supply before getting submerging is something new in this training, and it is considered minor, someone had better have a look at the training.

JAG

[indypddiver]

Just read the initial post of this thread. I hope this was just skewed reporting...

Last paragraph:
"...the department made minor changes to its procedures after the accident, but some steps -- including checking divers' air supplies before submerging -- were adopted."

A NEW step, that was a MINOR change? If checking your air supply before getting submerging is something new in this training, and it is considered minor, someone had better have a look at the training.

JAG

Mario Garza, while a great guy and ex-IFD spokesman, is not a diver. I think it is obvious to anyone that checking your air before entering a dive is crucial. The diver who died did check his air, did perform a buddy check, did check his gear, did dive with a partner, did wear fins, did don a BC, etc. He followed basic diving techniques prior to entering the water. That was not the problem. The quote cited in the above post is a quote that is part of a much larger statement and was made by a non-diver who was not privy to or involved in the initial incident or any of the investigations that followed. Please view it as such and hopefully let it rest.

[MikeFerrara]

I'm glad to hear that such sweeping changes were made. Agencies like Dive Rescue International and National Academy of Police Diving (and their PSD counterpart who's name I don't remember) are state of the art and, IMO, that's the place to start.

[pantheraba]

I have been perusing PSD threads and this is a very good thread.

"Bump" for this thread to bring it to folks' attention again.

[WSOPFAN]

I'm glad to hear that such sweeping changes were made. Agencies like Dive Rescue International and National Academy of Police Diving (and their PSD counterpart who's name I don't remember) are state of the art and, IMO, that's the place to start.

I agree....