Which post for DIR?

[CincyBengalsFan]

Howdy all,

I have a quick question. Which post does the alternate come off of for DIR divers??? (Twin Tanks/manifold diving)

[WreckWriter]

backup comes off your left post, crosses behind your head then comes around to the front. bungeed around your neck so it rides under your chin.

Tom

[CincyBengalsFan]

Just doing a little investigation. Approx. 2 yrs. ago at Madison Blue down in Fla. 2 DIR cave divers died. They found that the left post had been rolled off from obviously bumping the ceiling. So when his buddy ran out of air the alternate did not work because it had been rolled off. SO.... Isn't it better to breath from the left post as a primary in case of roll off you know instantly? As the Right post can't roll off unless you go thru the cave backwards.

I'm sure this will stir up a hornets nest but it's the TRUTH.

[roakey]

Alternate comes off you left post. To do otherwise simplifes your life during a normal dive, when you can handle some complexity and makes things more complex and dangerous during an OOA situation, when you want things to be simple.

Exactly the opposite of what you want.

See: http://www.scubaboard.com/t9920/s.html for an in-depth discussion.

Roak

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
2 DIR cave divers died. They found that the left post had been rolled off from obviously bumping the ceiling. So when his buddy ran out of air the alternate did not work because it had been rolled off.
Hi BMS...
There has got to be more to the story...
Not doubting you here but:
1) two divers died because one ran OOA?
2) the donor could not reach his left post to turn it back on?
2) they were DIR?

On the face of it... DIW is more like it.

But on to your question:

Isn't it better to breath from the left post as a primary in case of roll off you know instantly?
No, and to add to Roak's response...
What happens when you are transiting a restriction with the OOA buddy ahead of you and your long hose rolls off because it is on the left post? How would you know? How would he/she tell you?

[ckharlan66]

BMS,

It is not a problem because you donate your primary (off the right post) in a OOA situation, that way the diver that is out of air doesn't have to worry about the post being rolled off since they have been without air longer. You would then go to your secondary and you could turn your air back on if it has been rolled off. It is more important to make sure the diver in trouble has a good air source, then you can deal with what ever you need to do to make sure you have air.

Chad

[Divesherpa]

How many opinions from this are from actual experience?

Most cave divers never make it to anything this restricted.

[100days-a-year]

Sherpa,I've seen a few who could have a roll-off in OW .You are of course correct that a very few will make the 3560' travel to the Hinkle and most will be to girthy to get thru.

[CincyBengalsFan]

Fellas,

Let's not get to upset over this. But a fact is that TWO DIR divers DIED approx. 2 yrs. ago a Madison Blue. DIR will not take responsibility for it. Conclusions drawn were that The donor went to his back up. Finds out that he is out of air on the back up or it's not on. INSTANT TUG-O-War match for the one reg that has air. Tug O War led to Two deaths. The left post had been rolled off due to bumping. Yes, There set up was exactly what DIR wanted. Yes they followed every step properly leading up to this. Part of the problem is that the permanent line they had been following had been spliced (Poorly) and had somehow split again at the splice. These divers apparently had NO idea it had been spliced in the first part. Regardless. Would this have happened if the donor had known his alternate had been rolled off?

[Rick Murchison]

It isn't DIR to die. Therefore they couldn't have been DIR. Do you have names & date; any reference in any accident investigation? I'd like to read up on this one.
Thanks,
Rick

[CincyBengalsFan]

There are records on this. Shouldn't be very hard to find. Blue Madison spring deaths in Fla. Or Cave divers in Fla. & Deaths. Your right It isn't DIR to die but it's not any other agency either. They have to figure out a way to monitor there left post more accurately.

[Uncle Pug]

But a fact is that TWO DIR divers DIED approx. 2 yrs. ago a Madison Blue. DIR will not take responsibility for it. Conclusions drawn were that The donor went to his back up. Finds out that he is out of air on the back up or it's not on. INSTANT TUG-O-War match for the one reg that has air. Tug O War led to Two deaths. The left post had been rolled off due to bumping. Yes, There set up was exactly what DIR wanted. Yes they followed every step properly leading up to this
You call them DIR divers because they had their backup on the left post???
You say that DIR won't take responsibility for it???
You say they followed every step properly leading up to this???

Don't be ridiculous...
DIR isn't just about equipment configuration.
DIR isn't an entity that can take responsibility for it.
DIR divers don't have tug O wars over the long hose... (like you were there to see and report that fact.)
DIR is about training that includes checking periodically for left post roll off & valve drills to turn on a rolled off left post.

I think you got a bug bittin' ya somewhere and just want to start another DIR argument. I really wish you could just discuss things without trying to pick a fight because I'm sure your a nice guy and all.

[roakey]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
There are records on this. Shouldn't be very hard to find.
You made the claim, you do the legwork. That's how debate works.

Roak

[metridium]

Originally posted by roakey

You made the claim, you do the legwork. That's how debate works.
Good luck. I'm still waiting for him to unmask the dive manufacturer reps and other Fellow Travelers on the board...

:rolleyes:

[omar]

e-mail Mike Bruic as the owner (actually his mom owns it and he runs it) of madison blue he would know.

omar

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
There are records on this. Shouldn't be very hard to find. Blue Madison spring deaths in Fla. Or Cave divers in Fla. & Deaths. Your right It isn't DIR to die but it's not any other agency either. They have to figure out a way to monitor there left post more accurately.
Well, y'see, that's just the problem... such searches aren't showing any results... so, I'm coming to the source of the information in this thread - obviously you already have the original source material or you wouldn't be posting it, right? So, howzabout a link or three, please.
Thankyouverymuch...
Rick

[Burke]

I don't know anything about this website but the info looks valid and it sounds like what this guy is talking about.
http://www.iucrr.org/19991019_01.htm

I am not going to comment on the argument at hand as I have no experience to speak from.

[roakey]

Distance to nearest exit 850', one guy's cylinders are empty, the other's only have 500 psi in them.

It looks like this dive was a complete Charlie Foxtrot.

Only someone who was looking for a reason to run their hose from the left post would look past the multitude of *other*, more basic mistakes made and draw the conclusion that the long hose on the right post is a bad idea.

Diving a DIR configuration doesn't make someone DIR. And DIR is in itself not a panacea, it may radically reduce the possibility of a fatal error, but it certainly doesn’t eliminate it. Nothing can.

One of the more umbrella conclusions that we can draw from this information is that yes, if you make enough mistakes you can in fact die in a cave.

Roak

Ps. Another conclusion we can come to is that this note was a pure troll, since BMS asked a "quick question" and then argued about the answer. If you want to debate something, at least be honest about it. You got your answer, DIR configures the backup (not "alternate") on the left post.

[CincyBengalsFan]

LMAO,

OK. Blue Madison is NOW state Owned so no one's mama owns it. Also, I just want to know why pug is getting so defensive on this. If these divers were PADI or NAUI would you be getting so defensive. I just wonder why the donor would breath of a reg that may have been rolled off? Would it not be better to know right away if they valve had accidentally been rolled off. NO I was not in the cave when these divers died. Everyone can draw there on conclusion to what happened down there. But the donors left post had been rolled off. It was obvious there had been a struggle. This would appear to me and to about everyone else that there was a TUG-O-War match for the one reg that was working. And YES....AGAIN...YES...DIR divers would go into a tug-o-war over that reg if they truely thought they were about to DIE. It doesn't really matter if they were PADI, NAUI, or whoever....TUG-O-War most likely would have took place.

I am going to get another set of doubles sometime in the future. 4 1/2 yrs. ago when I dove doubles I was never concerned about which post or which side...etc....etc....etc...
Obviously I am concerned now. I'm just trying to figure out the safest configuration. It appears to me that I want to breath from the left post in case of a roll-off.

[roakey]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
I'm just trying to figure out the safest configuration. It appears to me that I want to breath from the left post in case of a roll-off.
If you're so scared spitless over a left post roll-off, which is a SIMPLE problem to detect and fix, you don't belong any place where you *need* doubles. This is on the same order as folks that don't want to donate the reg that they're breathing. If you can't handle that, stay away from so-called "technical" diving.

You brush the ceiling, you check your left valve. If you suspect your SPG isn't going down, you check your left valve and isolator. If you're killing time waiting for your buddy to tie in or something, check all of your valves, it's good practice.

Even if the thing is off when you donate your primary and stick the backup in your mouth, you've been OOA for maybe 5 seconds and to reach back and turn it on is not a problem. The fact that the SPG is on that reg means you'll even get a little air from its hose, probably one slow breath (an interesting experiment I'll have to try).

It's not a problem and to use that one incident where so much else had gone wrong as an excuse to support what is obviously a conclusion that you've already settled upon is horribly flawed.

But that the beauty of diving, you can configure any way you want, and I can invoke rule #1.

Roak

[Uncle Pug]

...I think I was mistaken about something in my last post.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
...I think I was mistaken about something in my last post.
You're right , UP... you should have used "you're" rather than "your".... :) :) :)
Sorry... couldn't resist :)
Rick

[omar]

Anna Bruic was the owner at the time of this alleged DIR accident.
Mike Bruic was running it.

Go get the proper training before you try this stuff or you will make similar mistakes with the same result.

omar

Also, you have the inflator you can breath off of which is coming off of the right post. If you donate a working long hose you know that the inflator will work and you can address the roll off.

[Wendy]

Where is it said that these 2 guys were DIR? Because they had Halcyon wings? Halcyon is a name brand. DIR didn't own up to this? What is that BS, DIR isn't a training agency. Its an approach to diving that encompasses many things.

[CincyBengalsFan]

After talking with CKharlan he mentioned that the left post should be tapped in the opposite direction. This would eliminate most chances of a roll off on that post. Me personally...I am all for uniformity...However...I wish the uniformity in DIR had the donor breathing his primary from the left post instead of the right. I just think if you had a roll off you could correct the problem immediately rather than find out the hard way like these two guys did.

So...Have the manufacturers discussed this option at all for the left post? What can we do to get them to do it?

[tombiowami]

"So...Have the manufacturers discussed this option at all for the left post? What can we do to get them to do it?"


Go over to the techdiver forum and post your observations on DIR to George Irvine. :)


Tommy

[Aviatrr]

The fact that the SPG is on that reg means you'll even get a little air from its hose, probably one slow breath (an interesting experiment I'll have to try).

Yes, you will....assuming that the air hasn't escaped since it has been rolled off, such as a few bursts of air into the drysuit or BC inflator, depending on the specific configuration. I have tried this a couple times, and it allows for about a half a breath at about 90ft.

On a related note, recently when exiting the cave at Cow Springs(about 400' from the exit), a right hand valve knob from a ScubaPro manifold was found(I still have it!).....and looked like it had been beat up pretty bad, which is bothersome since there are no real restrictions in Cow except the entrance and a few in the 900-1500' range. Made us wonder if somebody was bouncing off the ceiling there in such a large part of the cave.

Mike

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Wendy
Where is it said that these 2 guys were DIR? Because they had Halcyon wings? Halcyon is a name brand. DIR didn't own up to this? What is that BS, DIR isn't a training agency. Its an approach to diving that encompasses many things.

I was told that my Halcyon Explorer wings would make me DIR! ;-0


:out:



BMS,

I understand what you are saying about rolling off your left post. You say that you will be able to know that you have rolled off your valve if you are breathing off of that post. Great. Now let's look at it this two ways.

1) You, for some strange reason, have run out of backgas. You look to your buddy for his reg. He gives you his long hose, and life is good! You start to exit. However, your buddy's bouyancy ain't the greatest, because he is slightly stressed. You are leaving Devils system, and you are in the lips area. Your buddy nails the ceiling and rolls off the left post. The post that YOU are breathing off of. Once again, you can not breath. Now you think that both of you are out of air. Time for that panic thing to set in. You try to tell your buddy what is going on, but you are becoming more and more stressed as every second ticks off. Now what?

2)Same situation, you are out of air, and your buddy hits the ceiling rolling off his left post. You don't even notice, because you are breathing off the right post. Your buddy knows he hit the ceiling, and checks is left post. He turns it on, all is good.

Ok, let's add to the stress factor. Instead of rolling off the valve, your buddy rolls it off, and breaks it off. Now what? Let's find out.

1)You are breathing his long hose off of his left post. The long hose is now OUT of air. You have no way to exit except breathing off of his short hose. How do you pass the restriction when you can't do single file? Buddy breathing from even 500ft back would be a PITA. Good luck. Stress factor now at 100%.

2)You are breathing his long hose off of his right post. His regulator is now not working. What is he to do? Simple. He grabs his inflator hose, which works because it is on the right post, and breathes off of it. Notice I said breathe, not rebreathe. Stress factor is still higher than normal, but atleast you both have a way to get air.

If this does not change your mind and convince you, then nothing will. Good luck.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by JamesK
If this does not change your mind and convince you, then nothing will. Good luck.
Thank you, James, for taking the time to lay it out so clearly and well. You get an "A" for the day!
Rick

[WYDT]

Ditto that Rick! Nice work James!

BMS... have you even ever been in a cave?? Underwater I mean...

DSAO!!:mean:

[JamesK]

Thanks guys!:)

[roakey]

Let me add to the kudos for JamesK's reply.

[CincyBengalsFan]

Sure have but not for years. I have gone in caves with a "1" cave diving instructor and cave certified divers. 1500' + ft. penatrations. This was years and years ago. I did not have a cave certification but they took me anyway. I had a blast. Absolutely loved it. However; If I new then what I know now I would never have done this. Even with my years of experience in the water. I still believe the donor should breath on a 7' ft. just like DIR but it should come of the left post instead of the right. Of course then you would need a side exhaust reg. So..It leads me back....It would be so simple for the manufacturers to retap the left post in the reverse manner. Why don't they just do it.

[JamesK]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Sure have but not for years. I have gone in caves with a "1" cave diving instructor and cave certified divers. 1500' + ft. penatrations. This was years and years ago. I did not have a cave certification but they took me anyway. I had a blast. Absolutely loved it. However; If I new then what I know now I would never have done this. Even with my years of experience in the water. I still believe the donor should breath on a 7' ft. just like DIR but it should come of the left post instead of the right. Of course then you would need a side exhaust reg. So..It leads me back....It would be so simple for the manufacturers to retap the left post in the reverse manner. Why don't they just do it.

They do not do this because it would simply be fixing a problem that does not exist, unless you let it exist. Cave divers simply do not care about having to check their valve every once in a while. It is no big deal. Why fix a problem, only to make another problem. Oh, and what do I mean by another problem. How abou the problem of turning off your tank in error, when you meant to turn it on. All valves need to be STANDARDIZED. They all need to open inthe same direction.

[omar]

What is scary is that this guy is supposedly an instructor.

omar

[WYDT]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Sure have but not for years. I have gone in caves with a "1" cave diving instructor and cave certified divers. 1500' + ft. penatrations. This was years and years ago. I did not have a cave certification but they took me anyway. I had a blast. Absolutely loved it. However; If I new then what I know now I would never have done this. Even with my years of experience in the water. I still believe the donor should breath on a 7' ft. just like DIR but it should come of the left post instead of the right. Of course then you would need a side exhaust reg. So..It leads me back....It would be so simple for the manufacturers to retap the left post in the reverse manner. Why don't they just do it.

Funny how the people who don't do the dives want to tell the people who do do the dives the "right" way to do it... then come up with all kinds of crazy schemes why "their way" is better...

If you're just trying to argue against "DIR" it's not going to work... evey cave diver I know (DIR or NOT) has his/her hoses configured with the long hose on the right post and the backup on the left. That way works best and James and others have outlined it very well here.

DSAO!!

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by JamesK
They do not do this because it would simply be fixing a problem that does not exist, unless you let it exist. Cave divers simply do not care about having to check their valve every once in a while. It is no big deal. Why fix a problem, only to make another problem. Oh, and what do I mean by another problem. How abou the problem of turning off your tank in error, when you meant to turn it on. All valves need to be STANDARDIZED. They all need to open inthe same direction.
Have to disagree here. "The same direction" can just as easily be "forward" - indeed, when reaching for valves in extremis, I'd be willing to wager that most people would more easily remember both valves "forward off" than having to remember which is left and which is right. And it is far easier for most folks to rotate two objects in the same direction - that is forward or backward - at the same time than "clockwise looking in" - if you don't believe it, just try to move your index fingers in circles on the same axis - like the valve knobs - in the "on" or "off" direction simultaneously in front of you.
The elimination of the "roll-off/break-off" failure mode is a worthwhile modification, and "same direction" makes at least as much sense "forward" as "right."
Rick

[maddiver]

1) Why doesn’t a manufacturer change the valves because you have some hair-brained idea?
Answer: Simple economics. Your ‘easy retool’ would cost a company time and money. Also the end product would arguably be not different in function or marketability. We could break down all of the individual costs but its really of no value at this point.

2) The left post issue was well handled by James and I suggest you go apply all of your theory and show us a video of yourself diving and doing the safety drills to convince us. I’ll take a look at what you have to offer. Other than that there are a lot of people with a lot of time in the water that are trying to get it through to you- so put in the time and check with us in a couple of years and let us know about your ‘evolutionary left post long hose’ idea.
3) Even more disturbing to me is that Rick jumps in with some off the wall rant about something that none of us have the time nor the capacity to verify independently….how does that add value? Seriously, its like you just throw out some half thought out idea and then apply the ‘buyer beware sign’. How’s the steel doubles with wetsuit diving in the ocean going?

So ask questions but don’t think you’ve stumbled blindly onto the Right way to do things by accident. There are too many intelligent people in this sport that have been thinking long and hard on these topics.

Rick wrote

“Have to disagree here. "The same direction" can just as easily be "forward" - indeed, when reaching for valves in extremis, I'd be willing to wager that most people would more easily remember both valves "forward on" than having to remember which is left and which is right”

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by maddiver
3) Even more disturbing to me is that Rick jumps in with some off the wall rant about something that none of us have the time nor the capacity to verify independently
Excuse me???
The elimination of the roll-off/break-off failure point is an "off the wall rant?" Or was it my suggestion that "forward" as a direction as opposed to "right" - which depends on which way you look at the valve - is a simpler concept to learn that you consider "off the wall?" I really am curious. From your post you feel that eliminating the roll-off/break-off failure point isn't worth considering - you're entitled to that opinion - but my opinion that it is something worthy of eliminating is hardly a "rant."
As for the cost of producing a "left hand" valve, that's a pretty standard item already in other applications; the cost would be minimal. So, if you have some objection to a left post valve that wouldn't roll off, let's hear it. And please, try to keep it civil.
Rick

[VTWarrenG]

Unfortunately, I think GI3 might have it right this time:

You can't teach a pig to sing.

Diving is all about trade-offs -- there really is no "ideal solution" to this problem. Valves must be operational underwater, so that you can deal with first-stage failures. This means they can be rolled off. Sure, you could make the valves threaded backwards, but the thread direction is irrelevant if you just use proper techniques.

Now, putting the hose on either post has its own share of drawbacks. So far, the only benefit to left-post primary that has been offered is the ability of a diver to recognize left-post roll-off more easily, since he's actively breathing that post. That's a great advantage.

Unfortunately, the left-post primary comes with a much larger set of disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that, in an air-sharing situation, the recipient will be breathing off a post that can be rolled off, and will have no control over his own air supply. Another disadvantage is that it leaves the short hose on the "reliable" right post.

Breathing off the right post has only one disadvantage, and it's only a minor inconvenience: that the donor may discover his backup reg is dead after donating his primary. It's only an inconvenience for two reasons: 1) it shouldn't ever happen anyway, since a good diver checks his valves after bumping, and 2) any good diver has the ability to tun on his left post in a matter of seconds.

In general, THE ONLY DIVER WHO SHOULD EVER BE BREATHING FROM AN "UNRELIABLE" LEFT POST SHOULD BE THE DIVER WEARING IT. THEREFORE, THE BACKUP MUST GO ON THE LEFT POST.

bengalsmgtsucks, if you really disagree with the above clear, concise, unambiguous logic, the only reasonable conclusion is that you are incompetent. Perhaps you are? It's irrelevant, though.

Remember, folks... pigs.... singing. You can only try so hard.

- Warren

[roakey]

Another issue about the single example that BMS is basing his whole theory on...

We have two stressed-out divers, sharing air, one task loading a huge amount by taking off his cylinders. They’re at 3ATM in depth with 42cf of gas left, breathing at least 1 CF SCR (I’m being *very* generous here, probably more like 2 CF SCR) and they’re 850 feet from the entrance. They have *at best* 14 minutes of gas.

They were dead men swimming. Left post rolloff or not, they were both dead unless one “got rid” of the other.

To use people that had made that many mistakes leading up to the left post rolloff as an example why a right post primary is somehow “incorrect” is preposterous. The position that they got themselves into by the time the rolloff (or deliberately closed valve, who knows?) occurred demonstrates that they *should not* be used as any kind of “typical” example or situation.

Roak

[maddiver]

Rick-

Your idea and support of reinventing the wheel is the issue (especially when its been pointed out and beat to death the advantages). You talk about wagering on something that there exists no verification for. A behaviorial characteristic- care to bankroll that study. Also 'most' people are not cave divers and you indicate *most* people would see things in your light. Most people left to their own devices in a cave underwater would be in serious *%$#.

The production of such an item as you list below is not the issue, its the cost/value trade off. You own your own business right? Is this a prudent business move, BMS' idea? Care to dive into the specifics costs on the manifold retooling, remarketing, and redoing the technical manuals. If you think your idea will fly then put your money where your mouth is and put together a pitch and approach Scuba Pro....halcyon etc. The redirection of my post in an ineffective means of drawing attention from the real issue and the inherent safety of today's 'preferred' method is sad. If I stepped on your toes about the steel wetsuit diving comment.....and I never really did get a reply to that one....then I guess I should be sorry. But I firmly believe it is DIW to dive with your long hose on the left post and in a set of steel tanks with a wetsuit in openwater.....but that's just my opinion and you can dive any way you like.


Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Excuse me???
The elimination of the roll-off/break-off failure point is an "off the wall rant?" Or was it my suggestion that "forward" as a direction as opposed to "right" - which depends on which way you look at the valve - is a simpler concept to learn that you consider "off the wall?" I really am curious. From your post you feel that eliminating the roll-off/break-off failure point isn't worth considering - you're entitled to that opinion - but my opinion that it is something worthy of eliminating is hardly a "rant."
As for the cost of producing a "left hand" valve, that's a pretty standard item already in other applications; the cost would be minimal. So, if you have some objection to a left post valve that wouldn't roll off, let's hear it. And please, try to keep it civil.
Rick

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by maddiver
Rick-

Your idea and support of reinventing the wheel is the issue (especially when its been pointed out and beat to death the advantages).
Which wheel is that? I simply suggested that putting a left handed valve on the left post would be a good idea - I'm not in the valve business, but I do know there are plenty of "clockwise-on" valves in existence, so it's probably not cost prohibitive to make one.


You talk about wagering on something that there exists no verification for. A behaviorial characteristic- care to bankroll that study. Also 'most' people are not cave divers and you indicate *most* people would see things in your light. Most people left to their own devices in a cave underwater would be in serious *%$#.
OK, I'll rephrase it - it'd be easier for me. And eliminating the roll-off, which, as Warren said so well, makes the left post in its current configuration "unreliable" is to me a good thing. Sure it's a change - and folks would have to practice using the new configuration. In my case that'd take about half a heartbeat to adopt the new, "forward off" left valve.


The production of such an item as you list below is not the issue, its the cost/value trade off. You own your own business right? Is this a prudent business move, BMS' idea? Care to dive into the specifics costs on the manifold retooling, remarketing, and redoing the technical manuals. If you think your idea will fly then put your money where your mouth is and put together a pitch and approach Scuba Pro....halcyon etc.
BMS's idea began with the ridiculous notion of putting the long hose on the left post as it exists today. That's a very bad idea, and my posts have been clear on that issue. The only proposal I find value in is making the left post a roll-on vice roll-off valve. There is no retooling of the manifold required (don't know how you'd think there was). All that's required is reversing the threads on the valve stem and the housing - cost next to nothing. The new valve could be covered on an errata page in the manuals... perhaps I will approach one of the manufacturers.

The redirection of my post in an ineffective means of drawing attention from the real issue and the inherent safety of today's 'preferred' method is sad.
I have no idea what you mean here - I was addressing only that part of your post that accused me of an "off the wall rant." Nothing more.

If I stepped on your toes about the steel wetsuit diving comment.....and I never really did get a reply to that one....then I guess I should be sorry. But I firmly believe it is DIW to dive with your long hose on the left post and in a set of steel tanks with a wetsuit in openwater.....but that's just my opinion and you can dive any way you like.

Nope - you didn't step on my toes at all with those comments - I agree with you completely on both points. Indeed, I don't foresee changing the long hose to the left post even if I do get the roll-on left valve. If I did that I'd have to shorten my short hose a little... wasted cost.
Rick

[JamesK]

Rick,

One thing about changing the way that a valve would roll off is what we, as in everyone, are conditioned for. Almost everything we do that is threaded is the old "righty tighty, lefty loosey". From opening a jar of peanut butter, to removing the bolts that hold our backplates on. We are basically conditioned into that situation. To me it is still an answer to a problem that does not exist. That is not saying you are wrong, or anything remotly like that, I simply disagree.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by JamesK
Rick,

One thing about changing the way that a valve would roll off is what we, as in everyone, are conditioned for. Almost everything we do that is threaded is the old "righty tighty, lefty loosey". From opening a jar of peanut butter, to removing the bolts that hold our backplates on. We are basically conditioned into that situation. To me it is still an answer to a problem that does not exist. That is not saying you are wrong, or anything remotly like that, I simply disagree.
I think you'll find you're using a few "left-handed" valves and connectors more frequently than you realize. They're common with oxygen equipment, propane bottles, bathroom fixtures. We even have an example of what I'm proposing in the manifold itself, which rotates forward to tighten, aft to loosen - it has left-handed threads on the right valve (it's lefty-tighty on the right valve). Changing the left post to a "forward off" valve would make the entire assembly consistent, with every piece rolling in the same direction for "tighten" or "off." And I think the elimination of the roll-off problem is worth the few moments of training to use the new equipment. I know I'd like it.
Change is always resisted. In this case, I think this minor change in equipment to eliminate a real hazard is worth the investment of effort in overcoming that resistance.
And we can certainly continue to disagree. :)
But if I can get my hands on a left-handed left post valve I'm gonna get it.
Rick

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

I But if I can get my hands on a left-handed left post valve I'm gonna get it.


Well, if you do, let me know. I would be willing to give it a try.

[WYDT]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

I think you'll find you're using a few "left-handed" valves and connectors more frequently than you realize. They're common with oxygen equipment, propane bottles, bathroom fixtures.

Rick, I don't think you'll ever see what you're talking about simply for the liability issue...

Imagine this scenario...

You're on a boat getting ready to do the ___ (insert fav deep wreck here)... you've got your doubles on and as you're standing there getting ready to step off the boat a crewmember (unknown to you) decides to check your valve for you so you don't sink to the bottom with your air turned off (or so he thinks)... you can imagine the rest of the scenario and the ensuing legal battle I'm sure and I'd bet that Scubapro and Halcyon can too....

It's simply not standard to have valves roll that way and if they start making valves that roll this way and that eventually it's gonna bite someone...

I'd rather they stay like they are (all scuba valves) and I'll just check mine often and make dang sure I can reach them. Practice, practice, practice and it's not a problem. I practice reaching and turning my valves on almost all my dives... no biggie.

DSAO!!

[WreckWriter]

with WYDT on this. I think the concept is good but I see way too many problems due to the familiarity that we all have with the current methods. I think the answer is in training and practice rather than in change in this case.

Tom

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by WYDT
You're on a boat getting ready to do the ___ (insert fav deep wreck here)... you've got your doubles on and as you're standing there getting ready to step off the boat a crewmember (unknown to you) decides to check your valve for you so you don't sink to the bottom with your air turned off (or so he thinks)...
-----------
I'd rather they stay like they are (all scuba valves) and I'll just check mine often
But Rob,
In your first scenario you only have to check for a roll-off once...
Rick :) :) :)

[Jeff M. English]

I tried the left post aft-to-open idea last night, (just on my living room floor and in 'pretend mode' as my left valve is just like all the other valves out there).

I agree with Rick, it's a natural thing to rotate both hands the same way. It does go against ingrained habit, but so do many things we adopt in diving. In this case I think an aft-to-open default could be learned as easily as any other option.

As far as the issue of well meaning help on the surface shutting down a valve... we ought to check those pesky valves once in a while anyway... right? And we should be breathing off the right post/long hose at that point anyway, right?

Oh well just my $.02, but Rick, if you do have any of those valves made, let me know:)

Always interested, (hesitantly) in a new idea.

P.S. as to the *actuall*, original question of left post vs. right post, right post-longhose-primary post solves more and bigger problems than it creates - valve checking not a biggie..., OOA buddy cutoff due to rolloff going through restriction and unable to signal me - REAL BAD.

[WYDT]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

But Rob,
In your first scenario you only have to check for a roll-off once...
Rick :) :) :)

hehe... yeah but not EVERYONE makes sure they can reach their valves... :mean:

Just pointing out that it could be confusing to introduce another set of valves that are different than the current and not everyone would be aware... heck, I still have seen guys that hook the fill whip up to BOTH valves on my doubles to make sure they fill both tanks... :rolleyes: That was funny!

liability plays a B I G part in this game and it doesn't always make perfect sense.

DSAO!!

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by WYDT
heck, I still have seen guys that hook the fill whip up to BOTH valves on my doubles to make sure they fill both tanks... :rolleyes: That was funny!

Around here most fill jockeys seem to do that......

Tom

[VTWarrenG]

The left-handed valve idea sounds good to me, I'll be honest.

Tank valves (even special left-handed ones) don't cost all that much anyway.

- Warren

[NetDoc]

Pardon my ignorance... I thought this was the proper protocol for the partial pressure filling of doubles? Am I in error here? Even if you were merely "topping" off tanks, I would think it would be a good habit to be in. I don't believe that agitation alone would mix the two tanks through such a small orifice.

Also, for what it's worth (not much, I know), the left hand threaded valve seems like a great idea -IF- it was only used as the left side of a doubles set-up. Think of the confusion if the tanks were seperated for use as singles. It would be like getting one of those birthday cards that open the wrong way, only not near as funny! I would be hesitant to purchase anything that might have such dire consequences.

[WYDT]

Originally posted by NetDoc
Pardon my ignorance... I thought this was the proper protocol for the partial pressure filling of doubles? Am I in error here? Even if you were merely "topping" off tanks, I would think it would be a good habit to be in. I don't believe that agitation alone would mix the two tanks through such a small orifice.


Nope, you fill through one valve and as long as the isolator is OPEN the gas mixes just fine. There's no way more O2 (or He, or air) will go in one tank than the other just because you're filling from one valve or the other. It seeks equalibrium and very quickly.

You'll never find anyone who actually knows what they are doing fill any other way.

DSAO!

[VTWarrenG]

Remember that tanks and valves can be sold separately. ;)

NetDoc, the number of folks routinely breaking apart doubles to dive them as singles is, from my experience, very small. Besides, if you're smart enough to set up and tear down a set of doubles, you're probably smart enough to use a "backwards" valve.

If a given manufacturer made left-handed DIN valves, it would only be a slight additional expense to include one in a set of doubles.

Are we all missing some glaringly huge drawback, or is this really an honest-to-god good idea?

Who wants to be the guinea pig to post on techdiver? ;)

- Warren

[Aviatrr]

Are we all missing some glaringly huge drawback, or is this really an honest-to-god good idea?

You're missing a very big drawback......teachers know it as the law of primacy....most people know it as the old adage old habits die hard. During a stressful situation, people generally revert to their initial training......which means that most people would likely, regardless of what they tell themselves or others, try to turn the valve the wrong way.

Seems to me that people are just trying to re-invent the wheel here.

Mike

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Aviatrr


You're missing a very big drawback......teachers know it as the law of primacy....most people know it as the old adage old habits die hard. During a stressful situation, people generally revert to their initial training......which means that most people would likely, regardless of what they tell themselves or others, try to turn the valve the wrong way.

Seems to me that people are just trying to re-invent the wheel here.

Mike
This argument has been used against every change made in cave diving since its beginning. Would you believe there were serious arguments against SPG's, safe seconds, redundant regs, isolation manifolds... you name it. They were all opposed, often vehemently. Often by "big names."
The fact is that the current arrangement has an unnecessary hazard in that the left valve can be easily rolled off, and in fact has been a factor in more than one fatality. It needs fixing, and "habit" isn't a sufficient reason to deny it.
In my career as a professional naval aviator I had to learn new emergency procedures every time I changed airplanes - and sometimes had to keep 'em separate for two different airplanes I was flying at the same command - and, the procedures for one could kill you in the other. Keeping it all straight was absolutely essential to survival - and we did it. That's why I can say with absolute confidence that for me, I can train myself to respond with "forward off" on both valves with five minutes practice and zero chance of screwing it up. You can too.
Rick

[Aviatrr]

This argument has been used against every change made in cave diving since its beginning. Would you believe there were serious arguments against SPG's, safe seconds, redundant regs, isolation manifolds...

One slight difference.....those things were all new equipment, not internal changes to existing equipment that would remain the same in physical appearance and feel.


In my career as a professional naval aviator I had to learn new emergency procedures every time I changed airplanes - and sometimes had to keep 'em separate for two different airplanes I was flying at the same command - and, the procedures for one could kill you in the other. Keeping it all straight was absolutely essential to survival - and we did it.

I understand that, and I have to deal with the same issues. The difference is the visual cues. Each cockpit of a different type of aircraft is unique. Switches, levers, controls, etc. are in different locations.


That's why I can say with absolute confidence that for me, I can train myself to respond with "forward off" on both valves with five minutes practice and zero chance of screwing it up. You can too.

While I agree that such would be the case with many, if not most, people, there would be problems. It WOULD eventually contribute to a death, maybe two.

Why not call some of the manufacturers and ask them for their input, and ask if they ever have or would produce such a valve? I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say. Maybe try calling Lamar at Dive Rite and ask him about it.

Mike

[CincyBengalsFan]

Whoever posted that the person that is out of air can not tell the donor the left post rolled off is a GREAT person. NOW, that is a reason not to put it on that post. THANKYOU for that reply. That is all I wanted. Also...I'm glad there are so many supporters for the threads to be reversed on the left post. I talk with the manufactures several times a week and will relay this response on to them. Thanks again.

[roakey]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Whoever posted that the person that is out of air can not tell the donor the left post rolled off is a GREAT person.
The third reply to this thread pointed you to an existing discussion where rolloff to the OOA diver was covered in great detail. That was four pages ago for those who are counting.

Two important tips for successful use of a board such as this:

1) See if the topic alread exists (simply looking for "post" in the subject line would have found the existing discussion) rather than starting a new one.

2) Actually read the responses.

Roak

[CincyBengalsFan]

Again,

[SIZE=4]THANKYOU!

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Whoever posted that the person that is out of air can not tell the donor the left post rolled
I think it was included by several poster in the thread... starting with the 5th post... and followed by others.

So... anyone keeping the count?

[CincyBengalsFan]

Just looking for a good answer. Finally got one.

[VTWarrenG]

Listen guys,

If he can't figure out why a left-post primary is bad, do you really expect him to be up on the finer details of using an online bulletin board??

:D

- Warren

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Just looking for a good answer. Finally got one.
... you finally got one...
that you read... good.

BMS... paying attention to details is a very important component of technical diving... lack of awareness could be a serious problem.

[CincyBengalsFan]

I have absolutely NO respect for someone who claims they WILL not panic.

[CincyBengalsFan]

navy seals even claim they can panic given the right circustance which of course would be an extreme one.

[roakey]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
I have absolutely NO respect for someone who claims they WILL not panic.
Huh? Where'd this come from?

Roak

Ps. BMS, you need to fix the spelling mistake in your signature.

[VTWarrenG]

Roak,

I think someone's one beer shy of a six pack...

- Warren

[Burke]

I have been following this thread pretty closely and I have come to the conclusion that while bms MAY be one can short of a six pack, he is DEFINITELY missing the little plastic thingy that holds it all together.

[Uncle Pug]

One is that BMS is not receive all of the posts in this thread or is receiving posts from another thread somehow jumbled in with this one.

Another possibility is that BMS is involved with several threads at the same time and simply forgot which one he was responding to.

But it is a third possibility that troubles me and it is not a laughing matter.

Just let me say... that after reading my previous post about the need to pay attention to details... something is beginning to dawn on me.

And BMS I apologize for any patronage that post might have displayed... get some well deserved rest buddy...

[omar]

What pray tell would that be??

That you have a new avocation trying to get swine to sing? ;)

omar

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by omar
What pray tell would that be??

I certainly hope this isn't contagious...

[Uncle Pug]

and I have reported this to TechAdmin...

[JamesK]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Just looking for a good answer. Finally got one.


Finally? I thought my answer was pretty good. It took me a lng time to type. Maybe I just ramble on too much and you don't like reading long replies? :confused: :(

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by JamesK
I thought my answer was pretty good. It took me a lng time to type.
Even thought you were late to the party...
It was still on the second page... :D

[Samir]

I was reading your discussion here on DIR and how everytime there is a stuff up, and suddenly these guys that die are not DIR anymore!! So why are they not DIR when this happens??!!
The problem with JJ and GI , is they like to push their DIR attitude in every corner of the world, and they not making too many friends to quickly. A GUE site in Netherlands has posted pictures of DIW divers, some of which are the most expereinced explorers out there, and suggest that they are all wrong and will die if not doing the DIR thing. I know a lot of these people in those photos, they are my friends, and when DIR can't even admitt the fact that two divers screwed up and died, then do people really want to treat JJ and GI like gods? they have some goods points on a lot of stuff, but for @#$% sake don't go pushing it down everyones throat.:rolleyes:

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Even thought you were late to the party...
It was still on the second page... :D :out: :out: :out: :out: Yeah, it might have been on the second page, but that is only because it took up the enitre second page! LOL!!! How could he have missed it?!

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Samir
I was reading your discussion here on DIR and how everytime there is a stuff up, and suddenly these guys that die are not DIR anymore!! So why are they not DIR when this happens??!!
The problem with JJ and GI , is they like to push their DIR attitude in every corner of the world, and they not making too many friends to quickly. A GUE site in Netherlands has posted pictures of DIW divers, some of which are the most expereinced explorers out there, and suggest that they are all wrong and will die if not doing the DIR thing. I know a lot of these people in those photos, they are my friends, and when DIR can't even admitt the fact that two divers screwed up and died, then do people really want to treat JJ and GI like gods? they have some goods points on a lot of stuff, but for @#$% sake don't go pushing it down everyones throat.:rolleyes:

Who are these DIR divers that you are talking about? I am not doubting that DIR divers have screwed up, I mean they are human, I would just like some specifics.

Also, what is the web page you are talking about? I would like to check it out. Is it the frogkick one by chance?

[Samir]

Hi James, yep it is the Frogkick, sorry I forgot to mention. But I was talking about DIR in general, and about those two divers that died in the cave, I know there been more so called DIR divers that died but as you already know they suddenly become non DIR. Funny that.:D :D

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Samir
I was reading your discussion here on DIR and how everytime there is a stuff up, and suddenly these guys that die are not DIR anymore!!
And thanks for posting... your first one... and on our little thread!

The discussion here was not about DIR divers stuffing up and then suddenly not being DIR because they stuffed up.

The original question (which was actually a troll in the attempt to assert what you have reiterated in your missive above) was simply, to paraphrase: "What post should the long hose be on for DIR."

Well... the answer that it should be on the right post... and all the reasons given... are not a *DIR* position... they are a common sense position. Many divers other than GUE train DIR divers have their long hose on the right post because of these very good reasons. (BTW I see from your profile that you are a cave diver... when divng OC do you use a long hose? What post do you have your long hose on?)

Later in the thread as BMS moved his troll out into the open he made the claim that 2 DIR divers had died because of hose placement. His sole reason for calling them DIR divers was to try to make his point and rant against DIR. Silly if you ask me. There was nothing in the story about these divers that would lead anyone to conclude that they were ever DIR!

I think that if a person wanted to crusade against DIR that it could be done much more effectively by using logic than strawman arguments.... and since none of the anti-DIR crowd seem to be up to the task perhaps I will give it some thought and take a whack and it.

Yes... *Uncle Pug's Anti-DIR Polemic* (a polemic is a reasoned argument of refutation)

But not here... not today... to many other things to do that bear the possibility of success.

[roakey]

Originally posted by Samir
I was reading your discussion here on DIR and how every time there is a stuff up, and suddenly these guys that die are not DIR anymore!! So why are they not DIR when this happens??!!
Just because some guys were configured Hogarthian does not make them DIR. A favorite strawman argument of the anti-DIR types is to label folks that were in an accident DIR and then attack it. Nothing new here.

Originally posted by Samir
The problem with JJ and GI , is they like to push their DIR attitude in every corner of the world, and they not making too many friends to quickly.
The fact that you lump JJ and GI together as having the same attitude shows you don't have a clue, sorry.

Originally posted by Samir
A GUE site in Netherlands has posted pictures of DIW divers, some of which are the most experienced explorers out there, and suggest that they are all wrong and will die if not doing the DIR thing.
The claim by the anti-DIR types that the DIR folks say that they're going to die is oft repeated, but the claim is by the antis, not by the DIR folks. We DO claim that your ability to respond to an emergency situation will be less than optimal if you're not DIR and depending on circumstances that could get you killed. Heck, I'll stick my neck out and say that DIR is not a panacea, and you could encounter a situation that's so bad that even full-fledged DIR divers could get killed. DIR simply increases your probability of success.

Originally posted by Samir
they have some goods points on a lot of stuff, but for @#$% sake don't go pushing it down everyones throat.:rolleyes:
Now just how does this electronic medium "push it down your throat?" Is there a virus that causes any DIR post to stay on your screen until you've read it completely? Won't allow you to delete DIR mail until it's been read?

There's three ways you can get information from GI and JJ. You can go to a lecture, take a class or read posts on the Internet. The first two can hardly be considered "forced." The third, the Internet, always has the scroll bar or the delete key. Use 'em, if you don't want to read the stuff, but don't claim that it's being forced down your throat.

Roak

Ps: The DIW parade: http://frogkick.nl/diw-parade.htm

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by roakey
The DIW parade: http://frogkick.nl/diw-parade.htm
First time I had seen that page....

Samir, now I can see why you guys would be offended by the simple clean well thought out DIR rig....

And I can also understand why you would be offended at having your friends pictures paraded on a website... even though I can't understand the captions I can see why no one would want such pictures made public.

[omar]

The DIW parade is quite amusing in my opinion. However, I know for a fact that a few of the pictures on the site are from guys deliberately trying for the Christmas tree effect as a joke.

The guy that maintains the site recently joined a German tech diver mailing list that I belong to. He has been taking a lot of criticism for the site and the inclusion of pictures that were meant as a joke. He has not come up with a good reason for their inclusion.

Samir - can you please positively identify which DIR people died diving. Without a bona fide incident is it just a smoke screen and BS.

omar

[Samir]

Sorry for late reply's due to the time zone.
I use a long hose coming from my right post, backup from the left. Like I said DIR setup I have no problems with , I actually adopt some of the config, but I set it up to suit me. I use a manifold and always check the left post after any restriction I encounter. Most Cave divers in Australia prefer independent twins, and some cave you need to be able to carry tanks in one by one. Any way, back to frogkick web site, yes you are right most pictures were taken as a joke, and a friend of mine ( the black and white picture ) was really funny, and when we saw it there we had a good laugh! But other pictures are some of the best divers in Australia that done dives no one ever done before, this is the part that really offends us, beacuse these guys been doing stuff before DIR boys even learned how to walk.
As for deaths, OK this a borad argument, why? well really the only true DIR guys are JJ, GI and their team ( non died thank god ) , but there has been death by so called DIR divers ( I have to dig through old info to find out the details ) but the argument is they are not DIR when they die, but when they alive they are DIR, so go figure. See the way I see it unless you part of WKPP project you will never be DIR, simple.
But what's a pain is the way every so called DIR person try to say that their way is the only way, and most arguments they have are so crap.

Back to the subject, I think if you are running a manifold you ahould be able to check your left post as a second nature, if you can't adopt this, then go independent. You should be able to do this under stress. Do cave courses in US put divers through stress tests? I heard that they do now but intersted to hear from you guys?:)

[VTWarrenG]

Samir,

Nothing you just said hasn't already been said in this thread. Your post added absolutely nothing.

You'll need to show us exactly who these DIR divers were, how you know specifically that they were DIR (not just the equipment they went into the cave with -- we need to know they were using DIR protocols and techniques in the cave at the time of death), and how their death was related to a failure of the DIR system itself.

There are generally only three ways to die underwater:

1) Medical problems.
2) Physical catastrophes (like wall collapse).
3) Equipment failures.

Unfortunately, many divers die because of a very unfortunate fourth mechanism:

4) The inability to use available solutions due to panic or poor planning. Essentially, the diver accidentally kills himself.

The reason you keep hearing that "DIR divers never die" is because you're misunderstading what's said -- no one has ever said DIR makes you immortal.

DIR is a self-consistent, and essentially all-encompassing set of techniques, protocols, and preventive actions. There is no emergency, short of three or more simultaneous equipment failures at maximum depth or penetration, that cannot be solved without loss of life by a properly formulated dive plan, and DIR, when followed, makes that perfect dive plan automatic. DIR seeks to eliminate that fourth issue by providing specific procedures (solutions) to all reasonably possible problems.

If those procedures are followed, the diver will necessarily live. The only way out of the procedure is to fail to follow it -- and the only way to die is to fail to follow the procedure. This is what begets the ill-fated and often misunderstood statement "DIR divers never die."

This isn't a novel approach to doing things, by the way -- lock out-tag out, and zillions of military procedures, are designed carefully to eliminate risks when followed properly.

If you'd like to attack the premise that "properly designed procedures mitigate risk," please go right ahead.

If you'd like to attack the premise that "DIR is a set of properly designed procedures," please go right ahead.

Those are the only two premises available for attack.

- Warren

[Samir]

If those procedures are followed, the diver will necessarily live. The only way out of the procedure is

No you right, the idea behind it is right as well, no one says that DIR is not working or what ever, the only problem is they like to think they are the only ones that doing diving in a safe way, and everyone else are a bunch of Strokes that have no idea what they doing!!
We do push dives in caves, on deep wrecks and we prepare for these things, so we set personal rules that we stick by, but we don't go saying they the only way of doing it, I take ideas from everyone, hey I wouldn't be on this forum talking to you guys if I thought I was always right and everyone is wrong, you see what I mean. Look, the story's about DIR death I heard second hand so I will not agree or disagree on this subject, I don't like to be that way I prefer facts, you probably know better on ths subject.

On another note, I'm looking at diving wrecks in the great lakes, which places I should be looking at, who takes divers over there, do they have Helium, and mixing facility's etc.. any information would be gret. cheers.

[wetman]

Which lakes will you be near? and where on the lake?

steve

[roakey]

Originally posted by Samir
We do push dives in caves, on deep wrecks and we prepare for these things, so we set personal rules that we stick by, but we don't go saying they the only way of doing it...
So let's hear about your system and what you do different from DIR and why you rejected the DIR solution in those cases.

Originally posted by Samir
On another note, I'm looking at diving wrecks in the great lakes, which places I should be looking at, who takes divers over there, do they have Helium, and mixing facility's etc.. any information would be gret. cheers.
Contact Lost Yooper via PM using the mail facility on this board. Looks like he's too busy to post lately.

Roak

[roakey]

Originally posted by Samir
...beacuse these guys been doing stuff before DIR boys even learned how to walk.
I just finished reading a C++ book by a guy that was born after I started writing software. I learned a lot.

Since when is age the sole measure of expertise?

Roak

[Samir]

Well that's a good question, we were going to travel to Toronto, and head from there to the lakes, on the way to NJ to dive Andria Doria. But I don't have any information on the Lakes?? what's good, what's bad. I would like to see some old wooden wrecks, and some of those big stuff as well.

[Samir]

I just finished reading a C++ book by a guy that was born after I started writing software. I learned a

I was being Sarcastic. So do you call him a stroke then???

[Samir]

Well, most of us use CCR's, the setup's we use is different to what DIR team would use, ( scooters, stages, computers, tables , CCR's , SCR's , OC setups ) , We use helmets in caves which in some Australia caves are a must have, the light systems we use are somewhat different, most cave divers use independent twins ( I use Manifold , much better ), everyone like to depend getting themselfs out of a sticky situation, so most will have redunduncy for this ( depends on what type of dive ). What specific setups you want to know about? personally I don't use CCR, only SCR, so can't answer too many questions on CCR :)

Thanks for the info on contacts, I will try and E.mail him. Thanks mate.

[roakey]

Samir, your post raises more questions than it answers.

First off, DIR doesn't use CCRs or computers, unless you're referring to land-based computers used to cut tables.

Why helmets? What makes your caves so different from the caves in Florida, Mexico and Europe that DIR divers dive successfully without helmets?

You state your light systems are "different" but you don't state in what way. Are they helmet mounted?

Why independents? You think a manifold is much better, why do other folks choose independents over manifolded doubles? Do you dive with buddies that dive independents?

You said "everyone like to depend getting themselves out of a sticky situation, so most will have redundancy for this...” Do you feel that DIR divers DON'T try to solve their problems on their own first? Or that a team approach/your buddy is there to help mindset is somehow a negative?

I'm looking for the WHYs you do things the way you do. There's a "why" behind every nuance of configuration in DIR; I'm looking for the whys of the configuration you chose, not just a list of differences...

Roak

[Cave Diver]

Originally posted by roakey
I'm looking for the WHYs you do things the way you do. There's a "why" behind every nuance of configuration in DIR; I'm looking for the whys of the configuration you chose, not just a list of differences...

Roak

I'm with Roakey on this one... I don't believe in the herd mentality of doing something just cuz someone else did it. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and capable of analyzing an answer or explanation to see if it makes sense or has some value. That is why I have been looking seriously at the DIR divers. I'm not adapting to their configuration because GI or JJ does it, I am starting to do it because a lot of it makes sense to me. But I am always willing to listen/debate the points of any other method with someone that can answer the 'why' question and defend the position logically.

Dive often, but dive safe

John

[Samir]

First CCR's yes I know that DIR don't use them, and this is why I was saying most of us do use them, and have used them for so long without anyone killing themselfs on them ( in Europe yes there has been a lot of death, but in Australia we had no death on CCR'S ).

Helmets: apart from some regions which have crystal clear water, other places that we dive most have very dirty water ( 1 or 2 Meters ) , very sharp rocks, easy to smack your head nop matter how carefull, also we mount back up lights on them, and I think most wear helmets because of this. Well I do now as well, it makes easier to see when you need both hands to do something. I never had problems with deploying the long hose with teh helmet on, I suppose it's a personal thing really.

Lights, I use a greenforce light whixh is an 18W HID and has a very thin battery pack. I mount it on the inside between the wing and the cylinders, or between the twins, it has a bag that you put the battery pack in. What you find with the Australia cave divers a lot make their own lights, so it varies with shape and sizes, but a lot use canisters, and do hip mount them as well as butt mount them ( nothing new here ) .

Independent twins: the reason they popular over manifolds, a lot of sites require to carry cylinders one by one, but also the older divers have this thing against manifolds, but I love them, and suffer a bit extra carrying the twins myself , but better than independants. You will find more and more people are using them now here , mostly for deep diving that caves.

I have adopted a lot of ideas from DIR setups, I don't knock them down completely, it's just the attitude of DIR divers just wrong. But anyway I hope this gives you a little idea of my setup, let me know what else you would like to know. :):)