Once a DM always liable

dhogan4342 · Sep 18, 2005

I'm planning on going on to teach scuba as a pastime after retirement (in 5 years). I am 50 now and going for "Rescue" this year. The DM insurance is getting confusing. I was told today by a dive shop owner that once a DM you are liable no matter what. If you are on a boat with two groups and a diver from the other group is injured and you were nowhere around but still on the same boat, you can be as liable as the other DM from the other group. This means even if you are on vacation and not running the group. If I decide to go through the program just for the experience and pay padi the annual renewal fee, are you really safe forgoing the annual insurance?

Wildcard · Sep 18, 2005

You can always be sued. Too many starving lawyers out there. Im no lawyer, ( Im a good guy) but IMHO if your not working, your not liable. I will be intrested to hear what the sharks, Umm, lawyers have to say.

H2Andy · Sep 18, 2005

dhogan4342:
I was told today by a dive shop owner that once a DM you are liable no matter what. If you are on a boat with two groups and a diver from the other group is injured and you were nowhere around but still on the same boat, you can be as liable as the other DM from the other group.

i am a lawyer, though i don't do personal injury cases, and this sounds
very fishy to me.

to be liable to someone, you have to (in simple terms):

1. owe them a duty of care
2. breach that duty; and
3. cause them damage through your breach

now, if you are a DM on vacation, and some guy in your boat gets hurt,
and you have nothing to do with it, how on earth can you owe him
a duty of care?

the bad side is that if YOUR buddy gets hurt, you better believe that
lawyer is going to harp on the fact that you were a DM and owed
their client a higher duty of care. everything you did is going to
get scrutinized to see if you breached your duty.

Spoon · Sep 18, 2005

H2Andy:
i am a lawyer, though i don't do personal injury cases, and this sounds
very fishy to me.

to be liable to someone, you have to (in simple terms):

1. owe them a duty of care
2. breach that duty; and
3. cause them damage through your breach

now, if you are a DM on vacation, and some guy in your boat gets hurt,
and you have nothing to do with it, how on earth can you owe him
a duty of care?

the bad side is that if YOUR budy gets hurt, you better believe that
lawyer is going to harp on the fact that you were a DM and owed
their client a higher duty of care. everything you did is going to
get scrutinized to see if you breached your duty.

interesting. so what you are telling me is that even though i am a dm and that one of the members in thr group messed up due to carelessness and got injured i can get sued? arent dm more like guides and not babysitters?

H2Andy · Sep 18, 2005

Spoon:
interesting. so what you are telling me is that even though i am a dm and that one of the members in thr group messed up due to carelessness and got injured i can get sued?

i think i said the opposite of that

Spoon · Sep 18, 2005

H2Andy:
i think i said the opposite of that

i am eferring to your "everything you did is going to
get scrutinized to see if you breached your duty." lets say you dint breach your duty and wasnt your fault, lawyers can always twist it around and say that you are a DM and could have prevented it. im just wondering andy bec i got bent 3 weeks ago. in that first dive the dm guided us through a very agressive profile... in which we all followed.

dhogan4342 · Sep 18, 2005

Spoon:
interesting. so what you are telling me is that even though i am a dm and that one of the members in thr group messed up due to carelessness and got injured i can get sued? arent dm more like guides and not babysitters?

I think I need to put some thought into DM because once you pass through the Master Scuba Diver cert into the DM, it now lables you as a professional and you better be insured or quit diving. This would not be good because you cannot go back to master Scuba Diver.

Wildcard · Sep 18, 2005

H2Andy:
i am a lawyer, though i don't do personal injury cases, and this sounds
very fishy to me.

to be liable to someone, you have to (in simple terms):

1. owe them a duty of care
2. breach that duty; and
3. cause them damage through your breach

now, if you are a DM on vacation, and some guy in your boat gets hurt,
and you have nothing to do with it, how on earth can you owe him
a duty of care?

the bad side is that if YOUR buddy gets hurt, you better believe that
lawyer is going to harp on the fact that you were a DM and owed
their client a higher duty of care. everything you did is going to
get scrutinized to see if you breached your duty.

Ahhh, that explains a lot!

Mlody11 · Sep 18, 2005

I beleive he is saying that if you are buddies with another dive, you could be accountable for more responsibility if you are a DM. Not that you are accountable for all people on the boat just because you are a DM.

H2Andy · Sep 18, 2005

Spoon:
i am eferring to your "everything you did is going to
get scrutinized to see if you breached your duty." lets say you dint breach your duty and wasnt your fault, lawyers can always twist it around and say that you are a DM and could have prevented it. im just wondering andy bec i got bent 3 weeks ago. in that first dive the dm guided us through a very agressive profile... in which we all followed.

in order for someone to establish a claim in neglience, they have to prove
certain elements. there are four classical elements (duty, breach, proximate cause, and damages) but they can be simplified to three: duty, breach, damages.

so, in order for anyone to be found negligent, the other side has to prove
that you owed someone a duty, that you breached that duty, and that
they were damaged as a result.

just being in a boat where someone gets hurt is not enough to
create a duty of care towards that person, even if you are a DM

however, if you are diving with a buddy and they get hurt (you owe
them a duty of care because they are your buddy), the fact that you
are a DM will be used against you to show that you knew better and
should have acted better -- i.e. in proving the second element,
breach.

Once a DM always liable

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