Throw away your Explorer - the Halcyon Evolve is here

[CRDiver]

Looks like the Explorer is officially "old news" at Halcyon... All you drones, you know what to do!!! ;)

http://www.halcyon.net/mc/Halcyon_EvolveMC.pdf

[GreenDiverDown]

Looks like this one comes purely from a marketing decision. I reckon they're beginning to feel the pressure from the competition.


...just another disappointing move by Halcyon.

[jonnythan]

ROFL... I wonder how long it will take all the people who have said "a horsehoe design is better for doubles" to come around to "no one should ever use a horsehoe wing"....

[ianr33]

And ONLY $385 !!!

[true]

Chris, if you are no longer a Halcyon dealer, let me know so I can remove you from the distribution list. As point of reference, the Explorer will always be part of the Halcyon product line. The Evolve design has been requested for over two years and has been through scores of variations during testing. The wing has different characteristics in the water from an Explorer; the majority of testers preferred the new wing, but there will always be a place for both designs.

[Azza]

Looks like the Explorer is officially "old news" at Halcyon... All you drones, you know what to do!!! ;)

http://www.halcyon.net/mc/Halcyon_EvolveMC.pdf
I have been trying to open that pdf all day from three diffeent boards.
Still can't open it.

[KOMPRESSOR]

Chris, if you are no longer a Halcyon dealer, let me know so I can remove you from the distribution list. As point of reference, the Explorer will always be part of the Halcyon product line. The Evolve design has been requested for over two years and has been through scores of variations during testing. The wing has different characteristics in the water from an Explorer; the majority of testers preferred the new wing, but there will always be a place for both designs.


You seem to be my guy for advice. I am looking at the Evolve for two reasons. It's less wide than the Explorer (Which IS wide...), and it's shaped like my beloved Eclipse. :D

Now what would be the benefits of this design for doubles compared to a horse shoe shape? In my part of the world steel is the word. -Only steel... And it will be a set of Worthington's 12 litre/ 232 bar (Sorry, don't know the US measures) when I get around to it + a Fundis course in the spring...

By the way, today I'm diving with the Eclipse 40 set up with single 12 litres 300 bar /4500 psi. Longe and heavy, but excellent for my body (Long and heavy...)

[cool_hardware52]

ROFL... I wonder how long it will take all the people who have said "a horsehoe design is better for doubles" to come around to "no one should ever use a horsehoe wing"....

Jonnythan,

My position has always been that if doubles could be managed with Horseshoe Wings, the "donuts or nothing crowd" for singles were overplaying their hand.

I do believe that most do not realize how wings really work, and how gas really moves from one side to the other and how differently Double Tanks fit the divers VS a Single Tank.

In use at depth, the typical wing is 20-50% full, often less for Drysuit Divers. If you are horizontal this amount of gas will form a "Horseshoe" shape, i.e. along both sides of the tank and across the top arc of the wing, even if the wing is a donut.

For gas to move from one side to the other through the connection at the bottom of the wing it would have to travel downhill, under the lower end of the tank. This won't happen unless you are butt up. If horizontal the gas will communicate through the top arc. You might think it's moving down under the tank, but it's not.

Now when do we dump gas? For me it's usually during ascents. I don't often ascend butt first, makes venting the DS kinda problematic!

I do on occassion vent via the OPV when head down, if I have added too much gas during a descent, for ex low vis and the bottom jumps out and I hit the brakes. With the added mass of doubles, and the likelyhood that I can be pretty negative at the start of a dive in doubles, this is more of a problem, than in a single tank.

Unlike some other manufacturers, I do not make a "donut" singles wing, as IMHO, a well designed, narrow horseshoe, will perform as well, without the inherent manufacturing compromises a donut design imposes.

I do offer a full circle design for doubles. If can be seen here
rear view (http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/533/medium/side2.jpg)
Divers Side (http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/533/medium/side1.jpg)

The full circle design does offer some benefits, but in no way obsoletes the horseshoe design for doubles.

As a designer I enjoy periods of dynamic change, before ideas get "boiled down" to one or maybe a few solutions.

It appears that in the period of a only a few days Halcyon, Oxycheq, and DeepSeaSupply have all announced some type of "Full Circle" wing for Doubles.

There are differences in:
Construction method, i.e. Bladderless vs Sewn Outer with Urethane inner Bladder,
Overall profile,
Volume of the lower cross over.

It will be interesting to see which design elements prevale, and which "crash on the rocks" Will success be a function of inherent superiority, or marketing? Time will tell!


Tobin

[jonnythan]

I totally agree Tobin, and I appreciate your response. I saw your announcement about your new wings on TDS and think they look pretty slick.. I may end up getting one for my double 80s.

I was poking some fun at the divers who have for a long time said that a horseshoe wing is far superior for doubles... and I'm sure at least a few will, within the next year, say that a donut wing is better for doubles. Now that Halcyon has one ;)

[grouchyturtle]

Hmm...a lot of what Tobin said makes sense but all I know is "I love my Eclipse!"

The one thing that's bothered me, since I started diving doubles is the wing. I like the donut style wings much more than the horseshoe. The valve on my drysuit is in a position that it almost dumps its self when ascending even without being slightly head up, so I find it much easier to use the pull dump than the exhaust on the hose, but this doesn't work nearly as well in with the Explorer as it does with the Eclipse.

Also as KOMPRESSOR said, the Eclipse is much more streamlined than the Explorer. I was actually planning on posting in the gear forum and asking, why the hell no has made a donut doubles wing, and the very same day I saw the announcement.

Since I've dumped all my steel tanks, the 55# wing I started with is too big, so I was planning on getting a 40# wing anyway. Needless to say, my Evolve has already been ordered, and for only $30 more than an Explorer.

I can't believe all those other companies already announced donut doubles wings! The Evolve hasn't even shipped yet. I just can't wait until we see the 100# double bladder bungee donut! :D

[cool_hardware52]

Hmm...a lot of what Tobin said makes sense but all I know is "I love my Eclipse!"

The valve on my drysuit is in a position that it almost dumps its self when ascending even without being slightly head up,

I know it may sound like I'm nit-picking, but I never said head up, just not butt first. Without "butt-dumps" installed ascending butt first won't be pretty as far as the DS goes.

My point about being horizontal (to vent the DS) is even more valid with a doubles wing. In doubles the tanks are MUCH closer to the diver, and the wing has to expand beyond the out line of the plate, not between the tank and plate as is possible with a narrow singles wing.

If a doubles wing has to expand outboard of the plate outline, and lower end of the tanks almost touch your butt, how "head down" do you need to be before the connection at the bottom of the wing is higher than the top arc of the wing?

A full circle wing does offer an advantage, but it is not as great as some might have you believe.


Tobin

[KOMPRESSOR]

<.....A full circle wing does offer an advantage, but it is not as great as some might have you believe.

Tobin


Well, if nothing else, this one sure isn't as wide as some horseshoe wings I know! In my opinion THAT'S an advantage.



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


All I'm concerned about is wether a 40 will be sufficiant for a double steel 12 Litres (2x80's 3300 psi), since the next size is 60 and I don't need a boat on my back... (Why don't they make a 50 just for me?!)

[GreenDiverDown]

All I'm concerned about is wether a 40 will be sufficiant for a double steel 12 Litres (2x80's 3300 psi), since the next size is 60 and I don't need a boat on my back... (Why don't they make a 50 just for me?!)

Why would you even consider Halcyon when these are right next door?

http://www.agir.se/

Rumor has it they blow away the Explorer...

[MASS-Diver]

Looks like a nice wing - I use my butt dump ascents

[PerroneFord]

Some people, myself included, have trouble spending hundreds of dollars based on rumors. Maybe I'll see some Agirs around since it's very close to me, but as yet, I've not heard from a single person who has them and uses them in the US.

Stephen, why all the hatred toward Halcyon? I buy quality gear from anyone and could care less about the "brand".


Why would you even consider Halcyon when these are right next door?

http://www.agir.se/

Rumor has it they blow away the Explorer...

[jonnythan]

Why would you even consider Halcyon when these are right next door?

http://www.agir.se/

Rumor has it they blow away the Explorer...
Well, they're the same price, and Agir has no customer service presence int he US whatsoever, whereas Halcyon has built a pretty good reputation out of treating the customer well and taking care of problems.

I'd love to know what's so great about the Agir wings that they blow the Explorer away..

[GreenDiverDown]

Some people, myself included, have trouble spending hundreds of dollars based on rumors. Maybe I'll see some Agirs around since it's very close to me, but as yet, I've not heard from a single person who has them and uses them in the US.

Stephen, why all the hatred toward Halcyon? I buy quality gear from anyone and could care less about the "brand".

First off, I have no "hatred" for Halcyon. I use a ton their gear and have done my share to keep places like EE and 5thD alive and well:

An 18# batwing pioneer...beautiful...nothing better for 'light' diving.

A 27# Pioneer...old style...no built in STA. I use this one all the time...it's fantastic. I love how it folds up to next to nothing...great for traveling...small profile in the water...so easy to vent...no air trapping...love it!

A 45# Explorer. Fantastic for my little Al80 doubs.

A SS and an Al plate and 2 STAa with the killer cam bands and SS buckles...love 'em.

At least a half a dozen or more of their harnesses, hardware and crotch straps rigged on a variety of plates.

2 manifolds...great!

A 80# closed lift bag. I need to get their semi-closed.

A pair of older scouts...never flooded...they're perfect.

4 cam band trim pockets...very nice...although one, after much use, is beginning to come apart. These are great for single tank drysuit use.

A set of those 20# ACB weight pockets...hardly ever use 'em...but nice quality, nevertheless.

Gators...don't need 'em anymore...but still, very nice.

A couple sets of spring straps...hybrids...mixed and matched with other makes. they're great.

A bazzilion hoses...some deco and stage slings...a few spools...all very nice!

A pair of their little SPGs. Nice...not as nice as my Master Diver SPGs but still very nice.

The list goes on and on....and I can't think of anything that I have from them that isn't top notch...or anything that I've had problems with.

...so...I don't hate Halcyon by any means!

But...there are some products out there that are, indeed, better than Halcyon and I won't hesitate to recommend them and Agir is one... as is DSS and Oxycheq. I don't have the Agir doubles wing but I have heard some very positive things from people who have ditched their explorer in favor of these. I do have a singles Agir and have compared it side by side with the Eclipse. No contest...Agir is better...hands down. It has almost the exact same profile , so it is very streamlined. But, it has a better inner bladder, a better outer shell...and a trustworthy inflator. It is quite nice...perhaps the best I've seen. I only have a few dives on it...so I can't yet give it an A plus, but so far it seems to dive very nicely.

If the quality of the Agir double is as good as their single, I would definitely prefer it over the larger Explorer wings.

Besides...I thought that KOMPRESSOR was from Norway...isn't that just around the corner from Sweden? I thought that he might like a more "local" product.

[GreenDiverDown]

Well, they're the same price, and Agir has no customer service presence int he US whatsoever, whereas Halcyon has built a pretty good reputation out of treating the customer well and taking care of problems.

I'd love to know what's so great about the Agir wings that they blow the Explorer away..

As far as their doubles, Jonnythan, I can't personally say. As far as their single wing is concerned I have made a few comments on it in the above post and after I get a chance to put some more mileage on it, I'll post a review. You might be interested in this, however... it is very DIR!

You've probably already seen this thread but here it is anyways...

http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13492

[KOMPRESSOR]

Why would you even consider Halcyon when these are right next door?

http://www.agir.se/

Rumor has it they blow away the Explorer...


Agir would be a good choice. I also know the Norwegian importer of it. The Agir is just slightly more expensive than the Halcyon wings of today, and about the same price as the coming Evolve.

Agir has a nice 36 for singles, which I found a bit undersized for my heavy steel 4500 psi tank. they have a nice and slim 38 for doubles. Again perhaps slighty to small for some when using heavy steel, but perfect for others. And they have a 50, which might be a bit wide for some.

So the Evolve 40 is perhaps my choice when getting a set of doubles next year.

Halcyon comes up pretty good with price due to low dollar. They are the largest selling brand here also, and I know it first hand as I own one already (Eclipse).

Another choice I have, which you perhaps don't, is the excellent DIR Zone Range.

So there's no clear choice, just because I live in Norway. (Which, by the way, is NOT the capitol of Sweden...) ;)



EDIT: Agir are good wings. But "blow away" Halcyon? Hardly....

[GreenDiverDown]

KOMPRESSOR,

Check out the link above...those fellas seem to be using the 38# double wing with PST 130s and 2 Al40 decos.

Like I said...I haven't personally seen their double wings...just heard the rumors. I will say, IMHO, the Agir single does indeed blow away the Eclipse! Now I'm not saying the Eclipse is bad...I know lots of folks that love 'em...but in my book, if one is looking for a inner bladder/outer shell single wing, then you would do well to consider products from Agir, DSS, or Oxy.

The old Pioneer, of course, is still my favorite one layer wing. It's a work of art! I guess if I were to buy a new one, though, I might have to at least think about replacing the inflator.

[KOMPRESSOR]

KOMPRESSOR,

Check out the link above...those fellas seem to be using the 38# double wing with PST 130s and 2 Al40 decos.

Like I said...I haven't personally seen their double wings...just heard the rumors. I will say, IMHO, the Agir single does indeed blow away the Eclipse! Now I'm not saying the Eclipse is bad...I know lots of folks that love 'em...but in my book, if one is looking for a inner bladder/outer shell single wing, then you would do well to consider products from Agir, DSS, or Oxy.

The old Pioneer, of course, is still my favorite one layer wing. It's a work of art! I guess if I were to buy a new one, though, I might have to at least think about replacing the inflator.


I have to admit, I haven't got a clue what "PST 130's" means, since my head is screwed on metric :D I suppose they are steel?...

I already have an Eclipse, and will continue to use it for most of my future diving. But I'm signed up for a Nitrox course, and for Nitrox I want a set of doubles. For those long or repetitive dives.

Not a bad word about Agir. Not one... I just don't see they are any better than Halcyon. Maybe perhaps except the inflator... ;) The Agir 38 is soooo minimal it's just not for me. A slim 50 would make me feel comfy, but there are none. That's why the Evolve 40 turns me on, but I want to see it besides todays Explorer before I hit on it. And I wish it was a 45-50 something instead....

[GreenDiverDown]

I was just tossing out some ideas. I thought, perhaps, you didn't know about Agir...and they seem to be well repected in your part of the world. But I see that you have thought this over carefully. My bad.

[KOMPRESSOR]

I was just tossing out some ideas. I thought, perhaps, you didn't know about Agir...and they seem to be well repected in your part of the world. But I see that you have thought this over carefully. My bad.

No bad at all my friend :)

There are plenty of choices for all of us out there, and we can't choose the same. That would be booring, wouldn't it? :D

Here's another beauty:

http://fue.no/images/stream22.jpg

Dir Zone. German made I think.

[JeffG]

I'd love to know what's so great about the Agir wings that they blow the Explorer away..They come in Blue ;)

[Scubaroo]

I can't believe all those other companies already announced donut doubles wings!Do you really think that DSS and OxyCheq announced new products just to play "catch-up" with Halcyon? It's just a matter of the timing of announcements - DEMA is on - it's "new product" season. There's photos of each new wing in circulation - do you think they are something that can be just whipped up in an afternoon so everyone else can say "we have one too!"??? I know how many months the OxyCheq one has been in development.

My gut feel is that since Halcyon isn't showing at DEMA this year (AFAIK), they've made an announcement a few weeks before the show to be "first to market". Straightforward marketing. I reckon if Halcyon hadn't made a pre-DEMA announcement, we would only just be hearing about all three wings this week while DEMA is underway.

[KOMPRESSOR]

Would you care to share some pics with us? I can't find the new Oxycheq anywhere...

[Scubaroo]

Would you care to share some pics with us? I can't find the new Oxycheq anywhere...http://www.oxycheq.com/Wings-RazorDouble.html

Prior to production, this wing design was tested for over six months by Bill "Hogarth" Main. He had nothing but praise for this wing design and dives this wing today.I guess that makes it genuine Hogarthian :D

The original standard bladderless singles wings have also been renamed Razor.

[grouchyturtle]

Why all the baching of the Halcyon inflator?

I actually even had one of the ones that failed, during a dive, but as far as I know they fixed the problem, and replaced all the defective ones with the recall.

It's hard to tell from the picture, but I think the 30# Eclipse is a little more streamlined than that Agir single tank wing.

And no, I'm not a Halcyon *****. I had no idea who Halcyon even was before I bought my first wing, but as some one stated earlier, they make quality gear...it's that simple. Not to say I don't hav plenty of gear from other manufacturers too.

[KOMPRESSOR]

It's hard to tell from the picture, but I think the 30# Eclipse is a little more streamlined than that Agir single tank wing.



Yes, it's exactly 6 lbs more streamlined.... 36 - 30 = 6!

Although I would say you're not able to judge much from a picture, here is the Blackbird 36:

http://www.agir.se/images_products/full_size/49.jpg

[GreenDiverDown]

Why all the baching of the Halcyon inflator?
I actually even had one of the ones that failed, during a dive, but as far as I know they fixed the problem, and replaced all the defective ones with the recall.

I know of too many guys having problems with the post recall units that I think I would just change it out to a different inflator...for peace of mind, if nothing else.


It's hard to tell from the picture, but I think the 30# Eclipse is a little more streamlined than that Agir single tank wing.

I don't think so...although I'm not positive. I have compared them side by side but, I admit I didn't have time to do that comparison as carefully as I would have liked. They seemed the same size but the outer shell of the Agir appears significantly thicker and more durable. At the time, the Eclipse wings were all on plates and were being used in and out of the pool...so I had just a short time to pair 'em up.

I do, however, own a Pioneer 27# wing and have taken the time to closely compare it to the Agir. In doing so, I noticed that they have almost the exact same profile and are almost the same size. If you put them down on top of each other they match up almost perfectly. They do have slightly different lift...about five pounds more for the Agir. (This I measured...I'm not just going by the specs.)

[GreenDiverDown]

Yes, it's exactly 6 lbs more streamlined.... 36 - 30 = 6!

I measured the lift of my Agir single...32#... if I remember correctly. (I don't have my notes with me this morning.)

[mrobinson]

Why is this uch a huge issue? If you don't want the AGIR - don't get one. If you want the halcyon or oxy or whatever, use it. If you have a baised, go with it... I don't understand why the need to discuss this with all the attitude. It's a *******ing wing...

(As for me... my DIR brainwashed hand is going for my pocket... getting a credit card.... going for the Halycon website..... must order... new ... stock...... but wait, my loyalities to my local community.... must have AGIR.... what to do??? AAAAHHHH!!!) ;)

[grouchyturtle]

I know of too many guys having problems with the post recall units that I think I would just change it out to a different inflator...for peace of mind, if nothing else.Ok, never heard that until now. Now I get it.


Why is this uch a huge issue? If you don't want the AGIR - don't get one. If you want the halcyon or oxy or whatever, use it. If you have a baised, go with it... I don't understand why the need to discuss this with all the attitude. It's a *******ing wing...

(As for me... my DIR brainwashed hand is going for my pocket... getting a credit card.... going for the Halycon website..... must order... new ... stock...... but wait, my loyalities to my local community.... must have AGIR.... what to do??? AAAAHHHH!!!) ;)Because Halcyon is the best and really makes me angry when people bach them like in this thread! :D

Sorry couldn't help it. I guess it's just like this with everything. People are often biased towards a certain brand for many different reasons and get really defensive if anyone has anything bad to say about that brand.

Myself included to some degree. Yeah I really like the Halcyon wings I have, but some of those other wings look nice too, but I've always used Halcyon, so why try another wing.

Years ago a bought a pair of Nike cross trainers, just fit better than any of the other brands I tried, now when ever it's time for a new pair all I look at is Nike.

[mrobinson]

I know what you mean - sometimes it shocks me to see 4 pags devoted to that point. Oh well, I just keep diving - updating as I need too. :D

[KOMPRESSOR]

I want an Agir. No, I want two! And I want three Halcyons! -And even a couple of DIR Zone's and Oxycheq's!

Heck, what does it matter? I dare say these wings are equal when it comes to both quality and user friendliness. There you have it.

[mrobinson]

I dare say these wings are equal when it comes to both quality and user friendliness. There you have it.
AHHH - The devil has come from Hell to convert us!!! I suggest we act immediately.... tourches, tourches!

[GreenDiverDown]

Some of you guys need to read these posts with a lighter heart. :D

No one is "bashing" Halcyon. No one has an "attitude".

I don't have much in the way of brand devotion...well except for some of the little guys like FredT, Tobin, and Sandroff and that's because they're just really cool talented guys that seem to really love what they do.

I personally, use what I consider to be the best from different manufacturers. I'm probably way too picky but I like to think that each product has specific strengths and weaknesses and some products serve some purposes better than others. For instance, for certain circumstances the Pioneer is, IMHO, simply the best. But for a different situation where the extra protection of an outer shell is needed, the Agir excels. So...I pick a product as it fits a very specific set of needs...not simply by the manufacturer.

In fact, just off the top of my head only one manufacturer comes immediately to mind that just plain sucks. Even though some of their products are very nice, dealing with the manufacturer is so problematic that it just isn't worth buying that gear. Can anyone say...OMS! :05:

[KOMPRESSOR]

OMS ! :D


http://www.diversonly.de/diversonlyweb/Shop/images/BC118-Rempty06OMS_k.jpg


Never EVER tried one, but I just love being in the wolfpack howling these really, really suck! ;)

[GreenDiverDown]

I want an Agir. No, I want two! And I want three Halcyons! -And even a couple of DIR Zone's and Oxycheq's!

Heck, what does it matter? I dare say these wings are equal when it comes to both quality and user friendliness. There you have it.

Me too! I love it all!

You're probably right, K. I just think that certain products fit certain needs better than other products do.

And that's the way things are. :D

[mrobinson]

Some of you guys need to read these posts with a lighter heart. :D
No one is "bashing" Halcyon. No one has an "attitude".
:lol: :god:
Well, I guess I do!
:rofl: :devil_3:

[ericfine50]

What would be really cool - a 3 way comparison between DSS, Halcyon, and Oxycheq. Similar to the Scooter Shoot Out "Diver" Magazine ran this summer.

[drbill]

I have both oval and horseshoe type wings. The horseshoe ones have really been a PITA in terms of the type of work I do (videography). I am often on or near the bottom and filming down on a subject. Therefore I need to dump air in a butt-up position and the oval wing is much better suited for that. Of course as Tobin pointed out most people don't dive butt-up, so for most others this may not apply.

[Adam_sc]

Stephen, I may be in the market for a double wing pretty soon. Can you be a bit more specific as to why you feel Agir's single is a better wing than Eclipse. Is that the quality of workmanship, the shape or is it just nicer to dive in?

Thanks,
Oleg

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen, I may be in the market for a double wing pretty soon. Can you be a bit more specific as to why you feel Agir's single is a better wing than Eclipse. Is that the quality of workmanship, the shape or is it just nicer to dive in?

Thanks,
Oleg

I'm sure that the Eclipse is a fine wing. Everyone that has one seems to love it. Regarding the quality of workmanship, I would say the two are equal. Likewise, both companies have a stellar reputation for customer support.

I only had a very short time to compare the two. I do not own an Eclpse (I'm a Pioneer addict). However, the Agir 'seems' to have a tougher outer shell. Perhaps it only appears that way...I didn't test 'em with a sharp stick! :D The material used in the Agir is a nylon coated cordura. It 'feels' very thick and gives the impression of a near-bullet proof outer shell.

In contrast, the Eclipse's outer shell 'feels' much thinner and less puncture resistant. This may be a result of the very high denier count in the Eclipse's nylon shell which gives it a very smooth texture in comparison to the Agir. Maybe it's my personal preference for rougher materials but the Agir shell simply appears to me to be MUCH more substantial.

As I said above, I really like my Pioneer wings. I've used my 27# wing for 4 years with noooo problems and my little 18# batwing is just simply a work of art! ( I should add that my 45# Explorer has been great with my little Al80 twins.) Because they do not have an outer shell the Pioneers are more streamlined and fold up very small for travel. Also, they seem to dump air better than the inner bladder/outer shell wings. But, I baby my Pioneers. I don't just toss 'em in the back of my pickup. I always break down my rigs and put the wings in a safe place. On a boat I'm constantly on the lookout for things that might damage them.

When my focus shifts to having a tougher, more punture resistant, worry free wing, then I use a wing with an outer shell. It is this reason that the Agir seems to be a better choice. It just appears tougher. I can toss my assembled rig in the back of the truck and not worry about it getting torn. I can swim thru or under flooded Palo Verde trees - a common obstacle in our lakes - without concern over the health of my wing. The edges of a wreck present less a threat to the thick strong shell. I can toss it in the corner of the boat without a second thought.

Then there is the issue of the inflator. Agir uses the same tried and true inflator that we have become used to. Halcyon says that they have addressed the problems with their SS inflator, yet so many people seem to still be having problems. Maybe the H inflator inflator is just fine...but I would probably just change it out.

As far as dive-ability...I have just a few dives on the Agir...but it seems just fine. I did notice that it 'seems' a little harder to vent than the Pioneer...but I suspect that will get easier the more I use it. I can't compare it to the Eclipse because I haven't had the chance to dive one of those.

On the other hand, the Agir single is a horseshoe wing. That's fine with me...I don't care one way or the other. But some divers are going to prefer the donut Eclipse.

With respect to DIR equipment concerns, the Agir is as DIR as any wing can be.

[jonnythan]

"nylon coated cordura"

What does this mean? Cordura is a brand-name nylon from DuPont.


"This may be a result of the very high denier count in the Eclipse's nylon shell which gives it a very smooth texture in comparison to the Agir."

The lower the denier, the smoother the fabric (generally). Denier refers to the weight of the fiber.. so in general, a higher denier means thicker individual strands. High denier tends to correspond to high abrasion resistance but poor puncture resistance.. low denier tends to correspond to the opposite. This is the reason you see high deniers for outer bags and low deniers for inner bladders.

[GreenDiverDown]

"nylon coated cordura"

What does this mean? Cordura is a brand-name nylon from DuPont.


"This may be a result of the very high denier count in the Eclipse's nylon shell which gives it a very smooth texture in comparison to the Agir."

The lower the denier, the smoother the fabric (generally). Denier refers to the weight of the fiber.. so in general, a higher denier means thicker individual strands. High denier tends to correspond to high abrasion resistance but poor puncture resistance.. low denier tends to correspond to the opposite. This is the reason you see high deniers for outer bags and low deniers for inner bladders.


Arrrr...you're right, Matey.

Nylon starts it life as a petroleum based liquid. It then gets squeezed out through a small opening, or spinneret. The size of the opening determines the size of the thread. A denier is the weight in grams of 9000 meters of that thread. So, 9000 meters of 400 denier thread will weigh 400 grams. So, a high denier cloth will be heavier than a lower denier fabric. The strength of that fabric is probably more related to thread count...or the tightness of the weave.

To be honest, I'm pretty much talking out my rear at this point...I know nada about fabrics. All I know is what 'feels' tough to me. The material in the Agir single 'feels' just a tad thicker than the shell of my Explorer, looks like it MIGHT not be as tight a weave as the Explorer, is a bit more coarse and is just a wee bit shiny. The seams on the Agir appear like they would last a lifetime. I have no idea what nyon coated cordura means...that's just how Agir describes their shell. I don't think that I can give you any scientific basis for my impression of the Agir shell material...it simply just felt much more substantial than the shell of the Eclipse. Again...to be fair...I had just a few minutes with the Eclipse. It was just my initial impression that if I was looking for a wing with a bullet proof shell, I would pick the Agir over the Eclipse...no question.

However one looks at it, the Agir is very well made and is pleasingly very DIR. It's nice to have another option. I remember the time when...at least for me...Halcyon was the only choice. Now we have several product lines to choose from. I think that's great.

I have to admit...part of me likes using gear that is a bit...hmmm...esoteric...unusual...different...but of extraordinary quality. After I've finally convinced all my buds to stock up on Halcyon gear, I want to pull out a Golem and start it all over again! :D

[GreenDiverDown]

O.K. After some more studying on fabrics and a little soul searching I'll agree that these two probably are very similar with respect to resistance to injury. I think the two manufacturers just take different approaches with respect to fabric. While their choice in fabric is different it seems that both have chosen very high quality materials. I might also add that both use an inner bladder that is very similar.

Agir uses a Cordura (I am unable to find what denier) for its outer shell. It advertises this as a nylon coated Cordura but I believe this is actually a Cordura, DWR, urethane coated. Halcyon, OTOH, uses a 1680 denier Ballistic Nylon.

The inner bladder of the Agir is a 420 denier Cordura "puncturesafe" lifejacket material, whereas the Eclipse use a puncture-resistant 400-denier Nylon.

I can't account for why the Agir felt much better to my hand than the Eclipse...it just did. I don't have an Eclipse available to look at this more closely. I do own an older Explorer and the two are pretty similar inside and out.

Here are a few pics of the Agir showing the fabric and the seams...

[Adam_sc]

O.K. After some more studying on fabrics and a little soul searching I'll agree that these two probably are very similar with respect to resistance to injury. I think the two manufacturers just take different approaches with respect to fabric. While their choice in fabric is different it seems that both have chosen very high quality materials. I might also add that both use an inner bladder that is very similar.

Agir uses a Cordura (I am unable to find what denier) for its outer shell. It advertises this as a nylon coated Cordura but I believe this is actually a Cordura, DWR, urethane coated. Halcyon, OTOH, uses a 1680 denier Ballistic Nylon.

The inner bladder of the Agir is a 420 denier Cordura "puncturesafe" lifejacket material, whereas the Eclipse use a puncture-resistant 400-denier Nylon.

I can't account for why the Agir felt much better to my hand than the Eclipse...it just did. I don't have an Eclipse available to look at this more closely. I do own an older Explorer and the two are pretty similar inside and out.

Here are a few pics of the Agir showing the fabric and the seams...

Stephen, thanks for the excellent comparison. I own the Eclipse and so far have had no problems and enjoyed using it. But as you have mentioned it is nice to have alternatives and since Halcyon and Agir wings are almost indistinguishable in terms of pricing in my area I thought I would ask for a first hand experience. BTW I have an AGIR SPG and while this is more like comparing apples to oranges the quality of the gauge is simply top-notch with nice features like a luminous dial and a brass body. So I would imagine their other products should be equally well-made.

[lof]

Consider Golem Wings in your comparison. Inner bladder is 650 RF welded Cordura,
the outer bladder is 2000 abrasion resistant Cordura. The dump valve and inflator hose elbow aremade of softer plastic sothey will not crack when banged around on the boat or during transport.
Rock solid wings, very streamlined.

https://www.golemgear.com/c-2-bcdswings.aspx

Jakub

[Adam_sc]

Thanks. Golem looks like a very good wing. In fact there are almost way too many to choose from - DSS, Oxycheq, Golem, Agir and Halcyon. Sometime you wonder if the life was easier with fewer choices to make...:) Honestly having read this thread I am now torn apart as to what to buy.

[Frank Hayes]

Thanks. Golem looks like a very good wing. In fact there are almost way too many to choose from - DSS, Oxycheq, Golem, Agir and Halcyon. Sometime you wonder if the life was easier with fewer choices to make...:) Honestly having read this thread I am now torn apart as to what to buy.
Look for the tag, Made in U.S.A. Then Buy. :05:

[Hoosier]

Anyone has been to Halcyon Demo day? Please let us know if you had a chance to check out the new wing.....

Thanks in advance...

[grouchyturtle]

Actually mine is already ordered. Expecting a call any day now.

[PerroneFord]

I went to the Halcyon Demo day last Saturday at Ginnie Springs. I did have a chance to check out the new wing. I don't know too much about them though because of my lack of experience. My more experienced buddy went with me though and took the Evolve cave diving. He is a member here, and he might offer his comments. We did have a chance to compare the Evolve and the current Explorer side by side. To me, they felt like similar materials and had similar construction. One diver bought one that day up at Extreme Exposure. He was a very experienced caver (certified in the 70s) and thought the wing was quite nice.

Sorry, that's all I have.




Anyone has been to Halcyon Demo day? Please let us know if you had a chance to check out the new wing.....

Thanks in advance...

[grouchyturtle]

Got it last week, and got one dive on it on Sat. Much easier to us pull dump, but not perfect, since as pointed out earlier that bottom part does get kind of pinched between tanks and you body.

Had to mave bands down, because it's a little longer than the Explorer, but made reaching valves a little easier.

Much more streamlined!!! Almost felt like diving singles again.

[ShoalDiverSA]

...
As far as dive-ability...I have just a few dives on the Agir...but it seems just fine.
...
On the other hand, the Agir single is a horseshoe wing. That's fine with me...I don't care one way or the other. But some divers are going to prefer the donut Eclipse.


Stephen,

Have you had a chance to dive the Agir wing some more? Further impression on the "diveability"?

Is the Blackbird 36 a horseshoe wing? It really looks like a do(ugh)nut in the photos at www.agir-brokk.com (http://www.agir-brokk.com). Though, on reflection, it looks like a doughnut outer with a horshoe inner from the rear view (http://www.agir-brokk.com/images_products/full_size/49-2.jpg).

Thanks for all the info so far. I have a more than passing interest in purchasing the Agir wing as I work for a Finnish company and we are forever sending people to Sweden, so the shipping issue would be simpler/cheaper. From what I am reading, their build quality is superb. I have a Poseidon Clublift BC at the moment, which is also built in Sweden and its build quality is excellent. If that really means anything in the greater scheme of things.

Could you also comment on the profile of the wing versus other wings, i.t.o. drag?

Last question(s): Did you purchase a complete rig from them? If so, comments on the backplate, STA and harness would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Andrew

[JeffG]

Is the Blackbird 36 a horseshoe wing?
Yes. All AGIR wings are horseshoe

[ShoalDiverSA]

Consider Golem Wings in your comparison. Inner bladder is 650 RF welded Cordura,
the outer bladder is 2000 abrasion resistant Cordura. The dump valve and inflator hose elbow aremade of softer plastic sothey will not crack when banged around on the boat or during transport.
Rock solid wings, very streamlined.

https://www.golemgear.com/c-2-bcdswings.aspx

Jakub

Jakub,

Do you have the Golem single wing? If so, please give me some comments on the wing/backplate vs others. This is one of the other wings I am considering. It seems to be great value at $350 for the works, including a knife.

Cheers,

Andrew

[PerroneFord]

I've seen this wing. Absolutely stunning. I've never seen anything tougher from anyone, anywhere. As to how it works... I don't know :)

[Spoon]

im quite happy with my explorer. cant go wrong

[lof]

Jakub,

Do you have the Golem single wing? If so, please give me some comments on the wing/backplate vs others. This is one of the other wings I am considering. It seems to be great value at $350 for the works, including a knife.

Cheers,

Andrew

Andrew,

Yes we do have a Golem35. It is a 35lbs lift wing designed for singles and CCRs.
http://www.golemgear.com/pc-149-2-golem-gear-35-wing.aspx

The Golem wing is the toughest wing you'll find. The outer shell is 2000 denier Cordura, the inner bladder is 650 denier Cordura (that's what others' wing outer shells are made of) PU sealed, RF welded. It is resistant to hydrocabons and hydrolysis. I have several Police and Fire rescue depts buying them.
It is a really streamlined horsehoe, wrapping tightly around single tank. It has really low drag in horizontal position. The inflator has stainless steel parts AND inserts (unlike the infamous Halcyon inflator). There is a dump valve on the bottom left. There are built-in STA rods along the cam-band slots. It also has standard (11" apart) grommet holes for mounting on backplate (I have SS mounting screws avaialble).
I use it on my Meg (mounted to the BP via the grommet holes and to the Meg with hose clamps through the cam-band slots. Rock solid! Perfect trim.
Here are couple of pictures of my setup:
https://www.golemgear.com/showgallery.aspx?galleryid=2
Sorry for the butt-shots, but the pictures are meant to show the ArmadilloCCR kit :D

Let me know if you have any more questions.

[boogeywoogey]

would you like permesan????

He reads the crap....I get so annoyed with people...THINK FOR YOUR SELF......

Typical fireman/policeman/whatever to criticise inverts and YOU WILL SLAY ME for it.

Off you go chum....inverts are for your job and running about...but not for diving...

boogey

[ShoalDiverSA]

Andrew,

Yes we do have a Golem35. It is a 35lbs lift wing designed for singles and CCRs.
http://www.golemgear.com/pc-149-2-golem-gear-35-wing.aspx

...

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Jakub,

Thanks for the info on the wing.

I will PM you directly.

Cheers,

Andrew

PS: Can anyone explain the previous post to me? I am a bit lost on this one.

[Spoon]

too bad i got the explorer, good enough for me

[grouchyturtle]

too bad i got the explorer, good enough for meThanks for really adding to this thread. I think we get it. You like your Explorer.

[Tom Yerian]

I still like my " explorer"....Capt. Tom

[Spoon]

Thanks for really adding to this thread. I think we get it. You like your Explorer.

you dont get it i had a chance to get the new halcyon wing but i decided to get the explorer for personal reasons you would never understand. and your Wrong chief, i dont like my explorer, I LOVE IT!

[grouchyturtle]

you dont get it i had a chance to get the new halcyon wing but i decided to get the explorer for personal reasons you would never understand. and your Wrong chief, i dont like my explorer, I LOVE IT!Ok, but you didn't put that in your original post.

Did you try the new wing, or just decide to go with the Explorer?
Either way, why do you like the Explorer...or not like the Evolve?

My point was that just repeating nothing more than "I like my Explorer", "I like my Explorer", "I like my Explorer" really isn't adding anything to this thread.

[Spoon]

Ok, but you didn't put that in your original post.

Did you try the new wing, or just decide to go with the Explorer?
Either way, why do you like the Explorer...or not like the Evolve?

My point was that just repeating nothing more than "I like my Explorer", "I like my Explorer", "I like my Explorer" really isn't adding anything to this thread.

to be honest i could have had the evolve but i dint for personal reasons. cant tel ya bud its a secret. il say it again though i love my explorer.

[XJae]

cant tel ya bud its a secret.
thanks for validating grunzsters point.

[Spoon]

thanks for validating grunzsters point.

got my explorer for $150 brand new.

[GreenDiverDown]

got my explorer for $150 brand new.

A person would have to be nuts to turn that down!

Hey... did you change your ava? This one's a little dark... can't see much. I vote for a replacement!

[PerroneFord]

Other than Grunzter, is there anyone out there actually DIVING the evolve? Where are the user reviews?

[Vie]

Other than Grunzter, is there anyone out there actually DIVING the evolve? Where are the user reviews?

http://www.direxplorers.com/dir-kit-questions/188-halcyon-evolve-got-wet-today.html

[Hoosier]

Other than Grunzter, is there anyone out there actually DIVING the evolve? Where are the user reviews?


I am going to check out the new wing at this New Year's dive;)

[grouchyturtle]

Other than Grunzter, is there anyone out there actually DIVING the evolve? Where are the user reviews?
Here's mine from earlier in this thread. Still haven't gotten too many dives on it yet...damn blowouts and snow and winter and weddings!

Much easier to use pull dump than on the Explorer, but not perfect, since as pointed out earlier that bottom part does get kind of pinched between tanks and your body.

Had to move bands down, because it's a little longer than the Explorer, but made reaching valves a little easier.

Much more streamlined!!! Almost felt like diving singles again.

To answer your other questions from the PM.

I'm diving the 40# with AL80s. Started off this season with HP100s and a 55# Explorer, when I moved to the 80s I was planning on getting the 40# Explorer, but the Evolve came out around the same time.

It's similar to the Eclipse, but obviously wider, I think the piping its self may be a little wider (I'll have to look at it next to my 30#) Also it's not cut straight like the Eclipse. It tapers a little towards the top, with the widest part being centered between the top and middle third of the wing.

Only 2 grommets for mounting it. Didn't think about it at the time, but don't all the other Halcyon wings have 4 or 6?

[Hoosier]

Only 2 grommets for mounting it. Didn't think about it at the time, but don't all the other Halcyon wings have 4 or 6?


Thanks for you input. All Halcyon wing has only two grommets, 11 inch apart.

There is a huge size difference between 40lb Explorer and 60lb Evolve wings.

I think 60lb Evolve wing is a littlbe bit bigger then 55lb Explorer.

[PerroneFord]

That grommet deal was important to me. That's why I asked. Without moving the bands around (which GUE says not to do) it's nearly impossible to change the trim of the rig without shifting weight around. That could be a potential PITA.

I guess it's due to how the BP sits "in the wing" that makes moving it unfeasible. I guess divers will have to try to find a way to dive one and then make a determination.

[Hoosier]

That grommet deal was important to me. That's why I asked. Without moving the bands around (which GUE says not to do) it's nearly impossible to change the trim of the rig without shifting weight around. That could be a potential PITA.

I guess it's due to how the BP sits "in the wing" that makes moving it unfeasible. I guess divers will have to try to find a way to dive one and then make a determination.

It isn't a big deal to make an additional grommet on the wing. I have seen it before.

[PerroneFord]

No, but will that put the BP in a poor spot when the inflation of the wing is considered?

[Hoosier]

No, but will that put the BP in a poor spot when the inflation of the wing is considered?


Sure, I agree. But, it is depending on the wing size and level of modification.

[Spoon]

A person would have to be nuts to turn that down!

Hey... did you change your ava? This one's a little dark... can't see much. I vote for a replacement!


yeah was hard to turn down although i had my eyes on the evolve. oh well im happy. as for the avatar its meant to be dark. i was laying line in a cave:)

[KOMPRESSOR]

I've seen this wing. Absolutely stunning. I've never seen anything tougher from anyone, anywhere. As to how it works... I don't know :)


I will fill you in here since we've "discovered" in another thread that Golem is actually the same as DIR Zone and DTD. And I will put my name on that it looks more stunning and solid than any US made wing I've ever seen or owned. I am certain it is too!

Regarding it's use, I haven't gotten into the water with it yet, but I will on thursday next week with the smallest DIR Zone wing for doubles. Some very skilled divers I know swears to using these wings for their tec diving because of quality and that they aren't as wide as Explorer wings. Further more, the single wings holds the same high quality and they ARE the most streamlined wings for single tank systems you can get. I got one of those too, for my wife-to-be. Is that good enough for you?!



Disclaimer: I've recently decided to sell DIR Zone products from my shop, but based on the reasons mentioned. I do not, however, sell over seas or have any internet shop that could benefit from "turning" any of you over to bying this stuff!