Serious Question about OOA training

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Jeff Toorish

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This question is probably directed more toward instructors.

In my pilot training, the first thing I learned was to recognize a stall. And, during training, my instructor actually stalled the plane and put it into a spin, which we obviously recovered from. Then I had to do it; it was thrilling and a true learning experience.

A different instructor flew very close to a cloud, to give me an idea of the required distance to avoid clouds.

Here's the actual question:

In SCUBA, we practice out of air drills...but we never do it with a tank that is actually empty...at least in the training I have had thus far. Is there any school of thought that would have a student diver really breath out the air and then use a buddy's air to get to the surface. I don't suggest this at any great depth...but, it strikes me as somewhat lacking to pretend to be out of air during such training.

This is, of course, a question for hypothesis only.

Safe Diving

Jeff
 
jtoorish:
This question is probably directed more toward instructors.

In my pilot training, the first thing I learned was to recognize a stall. And, during training, my instructor actually stalled the plane and put it into a spin, which we obviously recovered from. Then I had to do it; it was thrilling and a true learning experience.

A different instructor flew very close to a cloud, to give me an idea of the required distance to avoid clouds.

Here's the actual question:

In SCUBA, we practice out of air drills...but we never do it with a tank that is actually empty...at least in the training I have had thus far. Is there any school of thought that would have a student diver really breath out the air and then use a buddy's air to get to the surface. I don't suggest this at any great depth...but, it strikes me as somewhat lacking to pretend to be out of air during such training.

This is, of course, a question for hypothesis only.

Safe Diving

Jeff

Some instructors turn your air off unannounced....kinda the same deal

OT-
You practiced a spin? What were you flying ( i've done more of them than i care to count in a t-34). The one that gets you is when they do (i can't remember the name at this moment) the stall while turning onto final off crosswind. Pretty much a widowmaker (we did it at 5000 ft and were told "imagine that at 200 ft or less) :D
 
I'm not so sure that's a good idea ... kinda like doing engine out practice by actually turning off the engine
... Stall/Spin Accidents on the turn to final , usually caused by overshooting the turn and trying to tighten it too much

DB
 
I fly gliders - my 'no engine' landing practice is always for real. :D

But with scuba, think of the liability. I think once a training organization reaches a certain size where they are large enough to register as a target on the legal 'financial raiders' targeting scanners. Then they decide they have to reign in such practices among their instructors.

Of course, this is pure speculation, and I'm certainly wrong...
 
When I teach a class I actually turn off the students air when doing an OOA. I of course tell them and let them watch their gauge for this exercise. They count how many breaths they get and can get the feel for running OOA. As soon as they are on their buddies 2nd I turn on their air.

I have to take a look at the manual as I thought this was standard.


Edit:

Yup here it is.

14. Air-depletion exercise —
Simulate air-supply depletion
to allow student divers
to experience the sensation
of a gradual increase in
inhalation effort.
 
jtoorish:
This question is probably directed more toward instructors.

In my pilot training, the first thing I learned was to recognize a stall. And, during training, my instructor actually stalled the plane and put it into a spin, which we obviously recovered from. Then I had to do it; it was thrilling and a true learning experience.

A different instructor flew very close to a cloud, to give me an idea of the required distance to avoid clouds.

Here's the actual question:

In SCUBA, we practice out of air drills...but we never do it with a tank that is actually empty...at least in the training I have had thus far. Is there any school of thought that would have a student diver really breath out the air and then use a buddy's air to get to the surface. I don't suggest this at any great depth...but, it strikes me as somewhat lacking to pretend to be out of air during such training.

This is, of course, a question for hypothesis only.

Safe Diving

Jeff

...part of the confined water training involves securing the student's air supply when they are in a stationary position, allowing them to breathe it down & feel the "sensation" of no air supply, at which point they secure their buddy's 2nd & share air.

...when performing the "c.e.s.a." ( controlled emergency swimming ascent ), their air supply remains on; it would be far too risky to secure their air supply for the c.e.s.a. drill. Remember, modern recreational diving training has been distilled down, simplified, compacted, compressed & packaged to meet the demands of the modern ( not-enough-time-in-the-day ) clientelle. The entry course does not come close to creating the proficiency, competency & muscle-memory needed for such an undertaking.

...Instead, I spend ENORMOUS amounts of TIME & EFFORT convincing them, directing them, demanding of them, warning them to ALWAYS plan for the AMOUNT OF AIR THEY'LL NEED & to MONITOR THEIR AIR SUPPLY frequently while diving so that they..

...NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER RUN OUT OF FREAKIN' AIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...ahem, er, sorry bout that! Divers should not run out of air. They shouldn't lose air due to poorly maintained, faulty equipment. They should never need c.e.s.a.! But IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT that they somehow do one day, they at least have a cursory knowledge of knowing what to do, if all other options are spent.

Best,
D.S.D.
 
I do like for the OOA diver to tutake the reg out of his/her mouth that way they really are OOA! It delevops confidence and hurrys the donor a bit.
 
I always turn the students air off and let them get feel what it is like. As soon as they start the motions of the ESA, I turn their air back on so if they need to breath they can.
 
Standards of instruction for PADI divers include two experiences with the air turned off in confined water.

In open water it’s considered too great a risk to actually turn a students air off. That is the number of incidents during training that would likely occur would exceed the number of people that would be saved during actual diving if the skill had been taught in that manner. A similar calculus explains why PADI instructors never conduct a buoyant emergency ascent in either confined or open water… its a skill that is described verbally and is presented in the written text book. The risk of a breath hold during the ascent without the ability of an instructor to intervene is just too great.

I’m not an aviator but I’ll bet that there are some training evolutions that are just too dangerous to conduct in the air but which may be approached in a simulator.
 
The goal in doing shar air drills is to develop the motor skills to do it. IMO, it would be far more benificial for students to share air correctly midwater than to mess around actually being OOA. In theory handing off or recieving an air sourse is pretty simple but it's amazing how many divers can't hold their depth and position while doing it.

but...comparing to flight training and thinking back to my fathers training, I remember him practicing short field and rough field take offs from a paved runway that was niether short or rough. Also when practicing things like stalls and spins it's done with enough altitude to leave enough time for a sloppy recovery right? Nothing wrong with practising for OOA while actually having air to bail the student out of a sloppy response. LOL Teaching CPR we never actaully stopped some ones heart just so we could get realistic practice either.
 
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