Is 45# Pioneer wing an overkill?

[globaldiver]

I am switching from a transpack II, to BP with Halcyon Pioneer wing, and wonder if 36# would be enough for me (which I believe) or if I need a 45#?

With the Pioneer wing I will use either single PST 104, or PST HP 120.

I am 6'2"/200lbs, dive with DUI cf 200/g200 or g400 undergarment (depending on temperature and activity). Diving will take place both in the Pacific Ocean and in lakes.

Greatful for any input.

Sincerely

Anders :)

[Divesherpa]

what wing were you using with the transpak?

[globaldiver]

DiveRite RecWing 51#

Never really had to fully inflate it though.

Sincerely

Anders :)

[Uncle Pug]

Anders.... an important piece of the puzzle is missing...

Are you going with weight integration or weight belt?

Also are you going to be using a weighted STA?


I dive a 6# SS backplate with a 6# lead channel weight and a single 104 using a 27# Halcyon Pioneer wing.... but I only dive it in salt.

[globaldiver]

I do not want all the weight on the BC, but rather divided between a weight belt and the BC. I normally use the DUI weight harness instead of a regular weight belt.

If I purchase the Halcyon SST plate with a Pioneer wing, I beleive there is no need for a STA anymore?
I have also looked at the Fred T heavy 9# backplate with a two piece STA. I do not know if I can disregard the STA on that plate with Halcyons new Pioneer wing.

Sincerely

Anders :)

[Uncle Pug]

... 36# will be just fine.

[globaldiver]

Thanks. By the way, what is the DIR opinion on weight harness vs weight belt when diving with BP & wing?

Sincerely

Anders :)

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by globaldiver
what is the DIR opinion on weight harness vs weight belt when diving with BP & wing?

But realize that DIR is mainly concerned with Technical and Cave diving using doubles... and at least in the case of double steel 104s there is seldom any additional weight required.

That said... diving singles I much prefer a mesh weight belt over the Halcyon ACBs but either of them over another harness under my bp harness ala DUI. The extra harness is stuff you don't need. The right belt won't slide down.

I wear a mesh belt under my crotch strap/waist strap. I only use 8# at present because I poured a lead channel weight that gives me another 6#... before that I used 12~14# in the belt depending on which drysuit I was using.

Belt:
www.idsewing.com
Channel weight:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10847

[boomx5]

I'm getting ready to buy a Halcyon BP & Wing set-up, and not sure what exactly to get. I'm 6' , 185 or so, I live here on the west coast and probably will be diving wet. Also, where is the best place to buy a BP & Wing set-up? Most my local shops sell Zeagle or Dive Rite and have not heard of Halcyon.

[JamesK]

http://www.halcyon.net/dealers/ca.shtml

[globaldiver]

It is true, with less weight needed around the waist, there is no real need for the harness. The harness is however great when diving the Transpak (with no weight integration). With a lot of weight on a waist belt, I have seen too many of them gliding down & hanging around the knees on drysuit divers. Having the belt under the croth strap would however prevent that, but lower back stress would still be an issue.

The extra weight in the back plate sounds like a good idea. I am progressing toward the 104 double configuration, but will also use the single configuration quite often for different situations.

Thanks for the info Pug.

By the way, do you know if the 9# Fred T plate can accomodate the new Pioneer wing without any need of a STA?

Sincerely

Anders :D

[Uncle Pug]

...you can piece together a set up from various vendors and just buy a Halcyon wing.

But for a little bit more you can just do one stop shopping and order direct from www.extreme-exposure.com (Halcyon's retail outlet) or www.fifthd.com.

Get a SS plate & harness and a 36# Pioneer for diving singles. A 27# wing might do but the 36# isn't that much more $$ and will give you margin.

[boomx5]

Would a 45# wing be overkill?

[O-ring]

Not sure what UP will have to say, but I can't imagine a situation where you would need a 45# wing with singles...I would think that would be overkill...

I could see using the 36# if you are larger or wear large amounts of weight...I dive a 27# with singles and most of my dive buddies do too and we range from about 5'9" 160 lbs to 6'2" 200...

[boomx5]

What about the Ranger or most of the other BC's out there? Many of them have lift greater than 45#, and most people that use them only dive singles.

[roakey]

Originally posted by boomx5
What about the Ranger or most of the other BC's out there? Many of them have lift greater than 45#, and most people that use them only dive singles.
The overlift problem among recreational equipment is ubiquitous. It's just one of many, many problems that recreational equipment exhibits.

Roak

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by boomx5
What about the Ranger or most of the other BC's out there? Many of them have lift greater than 45#, and most people that use them only dive singles.
Thge reason you need so much lift with a Ranger is to support the integrated weights... and the Ranger needs more weight because of its inherent buoyancy. That and most folks with Rangers and the like don't use them UW for buoyancy control... they use them as suface floatation... life jackets is what I call 'em.

Diving a BP and wing requires less overall weight hence less lift is need to carry the rig with a full tank at the surface without you in it. You really need very little lift for compensation purposes... especially with a drysuit. The greater need for lift is to keep the rig from sinking when you take it off at the surface. If you carry some of your weight on a belt instead of having it all integrated you can get by with a smaller wing.

That is why I can dive a 27# wing with a single steel LP104.

btw my weigth belt has 8# in it for cold water diving... how would you like to have a belt that light? You can.

All that said.... the 45# won't hurt... only slightly more drag than the 36#... Shane has one... I just prefer the 27#...

[O-ring]

Many of them have lift greater than 45#, and most people that use them only dive singles.

...many instructors overweight their students to keep them under control on the bottom (kneeling for skills) and to keep them from rocketing to the surface so students come out of OW thinking they need a ton of weight...the larger lift wings compensate for this overweighted trend that a lot of people carry on after their initial certification.

I just looked at my log and my first two OW checkout dives my instructor had 20# on my belt...now I dive with 4# on the belt and an SS bp (fresh)...I think she was trying to drown me ;)

[NetDoc]

Not sure that I buy this... most students overweight themselves at the beginning. They go to the dive shop to buy weights and they sell them 10% of their body weight. Glad I don't need 26 pounds to sink! They are stressed and tend to hyperventilate at first, neccesitating more weight to drag their butts down. As the "thrill" of breathing under water diminishes somewhat and they finally relax, we find them able to take off more and more weight DURING the class. It might be hard to believe, but I encourage this! I make a point of doing buoyancy checks before, during and at the end of each class.

Most instructors THAT I KNOW prefer not to overweight their students. I would not presume to extrapolate that axiom to all instructors, but for the most part me and my homies do our best to get these guys and gals neutral.

[Waterlover]

Good thing you didn't drown..... PADI insurance would have gone up even higher:):)

[wetman]

While we're on this topic, what really are the disadvantages of the larger lift wings? I notice UP mentioned slightly more drag, but are there any other issues to consider? The only one i could think of is greater chance of expantion and taking longer to get it under control in an out of control accent.

steve

[O-ring]

Not sure that I buy this... most students overweight themselves at the beginning.

Netdoc,
You are probably right...I should have rephrased that to say "the instructors that taught me and some of the instructors that I have seen at the local dive sites that serve as OW training grounds"...

Good for you that you actually work on buoyancy in OW...I don't think I got much training in buoyancy until I stopped taking classes and got out and did some dives with my buddies and worked on it.

[deepocean]

Hi

the pioneer 45 is usefull for instance here in the cold european waters and sea. Some divers i know dive with a HP steel 15 liter's (sorry dont know the american equivalent) with a backplate and drysuit. I heard some people use also sometimes a stage with the 45 (not sure if this is DIR, dont think so !).

I think : if you are doing normal nice and relaxed dives it is really not necessary to get a 45. Get a 36 and that will be more than enough. Remember DIR does promote efficiency.

Comment abouth the inetegrated weights: GI said: normal weight belt with a SS buckle (like the SP buckle) is always the perfferable way to go! I personally really dont like any integrated weights at all!

Have fun, xerxes