I'm making my way through the DIR book, and find it to be the most useful book on diving I've ever read. It really seems like the smart way to go, and I plan to buy all DIR gear by Christmas for my Tech class. While reading the book and posts' on the forums, I've run into a buch of questions. For now, I'll only post three of them.
1. I need a little help on selecting a BP and Harness. I know that the Halcyon stuff is very nice but, is it really any different than say an OMS backplate and harness? I don't think OMS sells a DIR compatiable harness so, I'd have to make my own. Not a big deal but having everything ready to go would be nice. Is the Halycon BP and Harness really worth the extra $? I know that there are some people making BPs - FredT and Gary on Ebay. Are these BPs any better? I really want a nice BP and Harness as the core of my rig.
2. I understand how bungees on a wing could cause increased drag. However, wouldn't the bungees prevent the shifting of air in the cell, therefore preventing roll? I've never compared the two so, I don't really know.
3. I'm not quite sure how much lift I will require in a wing. What is a good lift capacity for tech diving using AL and Steel doubles? (AL when wet, Steel when dry.)
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Wendy
July 10th, 2002, 08:34 AM
Harnesses: The last time I was at Extreme Exposure I saw that they had "kits" for like $45 (I could be wrong, but it couldn't be much for than that) that included all the webbing, slides, and d-rings that you would need to construct a harness.
Bungees: I've never had a problem with air causing me to roll because my wings weren't bungeed. Well I take that back, I did use a some wings once that were too big for the doubles I was using, which brings me to your last question....
Wing size: I use the same size wings for both my steel and Al doubles. With double Al80's I use a 45lb wing. I have friends that used this size wing in Mexico with double Al80's and liked it as well. My steel doubles are small, they are 85's and I use the 45lb wing with them as well. Depending on what size steel doubles you have or looking at getting will probably determine the size wing you will end up needing.
roakey
July 10th, 2002, 08:44 AM
EZ,
Search on BP, plate and wing in the buoyancy compensator conference, there's a wealth of information there that won't get repeated here, both because it's already been covered over there and because a BP and wings isn't just for technical diving anymore.
Just to quickly touch on your question 2, however. You're right, bungees won't let air shift just like training wheels won't let a bike shift.
Which allows a bike to be used to its full potential? A bike with training wheels or one without?
Roak
JamesK
July 10th, 2002, 08:58 AM
Harness - Buy about 17-20 feet of 2 inch webbing. The cost will be about $10-$15. Buy 4 large d-rings, one half d-ring, and 5 keepers. You can make two of your full size dirings bent rings if you prefer. These will cost about $10-$14. Buy one stainless steel buckle and that will be about $5. Make your own according to the link below. Total cost, $25 to $35.
As for the backplate, the OMS ones are very nice. I can not remember if they have slots for a single tank or not, so that might be a consideration. Also, many people are VERY happy with the others like FredT. Personally, I have no problems with my DiveRite, and plan on buying a FredT ss heavy for single tank use.
Bungees - I agree with Wendy. I have never used bungess either, but I have never had a problem with roll in my unbungeed Halcyon 55lb wings.
Wings - like I stated above, I use the 55lb Halcyon wings. They work great with both a heavy steel double 104 and a double Al 80. I have had no problem at all. They even work great with a stage/deco/O2 bottle and heavy steel doubles. You will find a lot of folks use a wing this size. Some, like Wendy, can get away with a smaller wing, while some of us, like me, are too negative to do that. If you are going to be diving a large set of steel doubles, and a stage, get the 55lb.
large_diver
July 10th, 2002, 09:38 AM
Jonathan,
I'll focus on question #1 since I just bought my first BP/wings in May.
BPs are more or less the same with minor differences like the quality of the stainless steel. That being said -- I found that FredT offers more "models" than the other mfrs (most sell 1 size in either AL and/or SS). Fred sells BPs made of three different materials (AL, "heavy" SS with more negative buoyancy, and "regular" SS) and 2 sizes (full size and short).
I bought a FredT "heavy" SS full size BP, which is 9 lbs negatively buoyant. For single tank diving, Fred also has 2 different STAs -- 2 piece (less negatively buoyant) and a 1 piece. With the new Halcyon wings with the "integrated STA", some folks say you no longer need an STA; others like the added stability even with the new style wing........I bought an older-style used Halcyon wing with no STA (I bought the 2 piece from FredT). The STA may be irrelevant, since you mentioned doubles in your note.
As for the harness -- you can buy the webbing and pieces yourself, as mentioned above. FredT and Halcyon also sell harness kits -- both come with everything you need to make a "DIR-approved" harness. One thing to consider with Fred's harness kit -- he provides billy-rings (one piece integrated keeper/D-rings) for the chest and left waist D-rings. Some folks like these; others don't. I've seen comments on other boards that DIR instructors have frowned upon the billy-rings since they tend to "stick up" more than a traditional d-ring/keeper combo (supposedly more of a snag hazard, but I'm not sure I buy this. I guess it depends on the type of diving you do). The edges of Fred's rings are also more squared off vs. rounded.
The main advantage to buying a Halcyon BP/wings/harness is that everything comes already set up for you (you obviously need to adjust for proper fit).
Here is a link with some additional info about FredT's products. To get price list or to place an order, e-mail him directly at the address below.
As for the harness -- you can buy the webbing and pieces yourself, as mentioned above. FredT and Halcyon also sell harness kits -- both come with everything you need to make a "DIR-approved" harness. One thing to consider with Fred's harness kit -- he provides billy-rings (one piece integrated keeper/D-rings) for the chest and left waist D-rings. Some folks like these; others don't. I've seen comments on other boards that DIR instructors have frowned upon the billy-rings since they tend to "stick up" more than a traditional d-ring/keeper combo (supposedly more of a snag hazard, but I'm not sure I buy this. I guess it depends on the type of diving you do). The edges of Fred's rings are also more squared off vs. rounded.
-Chris
I will substitute a keeper and D-ring for the Billys on request. I personally prefer the Billys for open water. Cavers have their own rules. The Billys also simplfy harness assembly and reduce part count, thus decreasing costs. As the signature says, I do CUSTOM gear! Everything is negotiable, but once you get outside the defined kits that includes the price.
FT
large_diver
July 10th, 2002, 03:58 PM
Hi Fred,
Didn't mean to give a negative impression of Billy Rings -- I prefer them as well!
-Chris
Campana
July 10th, 2002, 10:42 PM
I love my FredT backplate, it's industrial grade! The webbing, however, is very, very stiff. The way I made my crotch strap, it was nearly impossible to do with the webbing supplied. I was trying to adjust it to make the crotch strap longer the other day, and finally just gave up. I boiled it for a while, ran it through the dryer on hot, but it didn't help. I understand that Halcyon's webbing kit has softer webbing for the crotch strap and I hope that's true, cause I ordered one. Fred, you have any comment on this? Do you have any softer webbing?
dlarbale
July 10th, 2002, 11:07 PM
All (esp FredT),
Just a few quick questions on the plate shown at the link given in previous post:
1) What are the slots at the top (centre) of the plate for?
2) When you rig the STA to the BP do the tank straps go
through both the STA and the BP (does it really matter?).
3) Envisage 2 STA's without the centre dip, now place an
eyelet bolt between 2 STA's with necessary washers - this
can now be used for twins - is the dip really necessary,
pressume it just sits the tank closer to the BP (single tank).
The reason I'm asking is I have a BP and I've been playing around with various configurations. From my basic knowledge and experience I've concluded that a BP with flat STA could be used for single cylinders and an additional flat STA with eyelet bolts and washers could convert this to a flexible twin setup (no manifold but alot more user friendly).
I've tried the flat twin STA's with eyelet bolts but haven't tried the flat STA with just a single cylinder and have never used any other setup.
So is my logic flawed? You guys are the experts so be gentle!
Thanks - Dave.
dlarbale
July 10th, 2002, 11:09 PM
Oops forgot to ask what the small brackets are for (pictured above the SS buckles).
Later - Dave.
ElectricZombie
July 10th, 2002, 11:27 PM
I think that I'll go with the FredT plate, seems more versitile and of better quality to me. What is the real difference between the D-Ring and the Billy-Ring? Why would you want one over the other? Thanks. :jester:
Samir
July 11th, 2002, 02:49 AM
Mate, why not just get stuff you are comfortable with, and stop worrying about DIR approval crap, what suit them will not suit you, stop having blinkers on your head, and do only what they say, for @#$% sake it's you going to be wearing this stuff. Just find a backplate that fits your size, get one piece webbing from camping shop, attach D-rings that you need ( don't over do it ), and use a BC that you like ( 55LB ) is more than enough ( if in a wetsuit ) use twin bladder for backup, and there you go. Personally I don't like Bungee wings ( just another snag point ), but don't get huge ones either. Simple.
ElectricZombie
July 11th, 2002, 05:03 AM
Samir - I'm not just blindly following what DIR is suggesting, I know better. Their system and reasoning makes sense for the type of diving I do and want to do. I'm still reading and doing research on their ideas, and am still deciding on what to do. I currently have a ScubaPro X-Tec BC. While I don't really have any specific complaints, I think that by going DIR I can come up with a much better rig for a lot less money. If I didn't think that DIR was a ligitimate system, I would totally dismiss it. When I first learned about DIR, I thought it was just some group of Scuba Nazis. Upon closer inspection, I've found it to be solid idea, and much better than my current setup. When I finially order my setup, I'll put DIR to the test and see what the hype is all about. If it performs better than my previous rig, and improves my efficiency and safety, then it was defiently worth the effort. I still have couple of questions that I'll post tomorrow. Thanks all.
Burke
July 11th, 2002, 05:09 AM
Just because they know what they are doing and have been diving and refining their gear setup for a long time doesn't mean you should listen to them. By all mean, take the "blinkers" (what ever that is) off your head and go get what ever gear you think looks cool, heck get it at the freakin camping section of walmart, yeah, that’s what I am going to do, I am going to get my webbing at walmart, and use a dual bladder oms wing, and 10 or 12 D-rings, you know I have been looking alot of pictures on-line and I bet I could make a killer backplate out of cardboard, it wouldn't be "DIR approved" but hey who cares right.
ElectricZombie
July 11th, 2002, 05:29 AM
Burke - Will you make me a cardboard plate too? 30 D-Rings would be better! LOL :D
JimC
July 11th, 2002, 08:01 AM
I am going to get my webbing at walmart
While I probably wouldn't buy webbing at walmart (do they even sell it?) I do buy it at my local camping store. They happen to sell it by the metre in the climbing section. Along with bungee cord, dynamic nylon rope and static nylon rope.
There is nothing magical about it, and it comes in all sorts of colourse, shapes and sizes. Most importantly it dousn't cost very much.
large_diver
July 11th, 2002, 09:19 AM
EZ,
Regarding the Billyrings........
Most "do it yourself" harness instructions advise using a keeper and a SEPARATE D ring as shown in this link. This picture is actually a picture of a crotch strap -- but same concept.
Many folks use D rings on the chest straps that are bent upward to enable you to hook them easier with a bolt snap underwater.
Fred's billy rings are one piece -- D ring connected to a keeper (go back and look at the FredT product link I posted above). He has 2 main types of billy rings. Those used for the chest -- the D ring is at a 45 degree angle from the keeper....resulting in the same effect as the bent D rings mentioned above. For the left waist billy ring -- the D ring is bent at a 90 degree angle. This enables easier clipping/unclipping of the SPG, since the D ring is sticking stright up from your belt.
The advantage is that these billy rings are easier to "hit" underwater, especially if wearing thick gloves. Since they are one piece, the rings stay as is and don't "flop over". Some folks will argue that they are more of an entanglement hazard, since the billy rings are "fixed" vs. the more movable separate ring/keeper combo. Again -- I think this may depend on the type of diving you do. For penetration into narrow spaces....probably a vaild concern. For OW......IMHO, not a big deal.
I have billy rings on my harness now. I am taking a DIR Fundamentals course in August and I plan to leave them on if for nothing else than to spur a constructive conversation about these vs. the separate ring/keeper set-up ;-)
One more thing -- a complete BP/wing set-up may not be a huge savings over a jacket BC, depending on what you buy.
Hope this is helpful.
large_diver
July 11th, 2002, 09:30 AM
dlarbale,
The items pictured just above the SS buckles are the 2 piece "light" STA. These are held to the BP with the bolts that run through the wing.
Envision the plate sitting flat on the ground with the side that would be closest to your back facing the ground. If you look at the 2 piece STA, you'll notice it looks like an elongated "M" or "W". With the BP in this position, the STA pieces are attached to the plate in the "W" position. Your tank then sits in these 2 "W's".
As for the tank straps -- they run through the STA only
Check out this "BP for Beginners" report from scubadiving.com. The BP in these pictures is a FredT....great pictures of how the STA sits on the BP and the routing of the cam straps.
Large_Diver - Thanks for the link. Seeing the STA assembled was helpful.
large_diver
July 11th, 2002, 02:09 PM
One other thing to note about the STAs......this is a metal surface being pressed against your tank. If you have painted tanks -- lots of scuffing. I bought a $7.00 can of vinyl tool dip at my local hardware store and am going to try and coat at least the ends of the STA with it.
FredT
July 11th, 2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by dlarbale
All (esp FredT),
Just a few quick questions on the plate shown at the link given in previous post:
1) What are the slots at the top (centre) of the plate for?
The shoulder straps can be routed through these slots, when combined with the "normal" plate slots a total of 6 different ways. This allows for better fit for those with wider or narrower necks and shoulders, and for better shoulder strap clearance for ladies with larger breasts. The lower slots work the same as all plates.
Originally posted by dlarbale
2) When you rig the STA to the BP do the tank straps go
through both the STA and the BP (does it really matter?).
When using a STA the strap generally goes through the STA, Not the plate. The "W" STA I make can be used either way, but it makes more sense to tie it to the STA when changing tanks on a rolling boat.
Originally posted by dlarbale
3) Envisage 2 STA's without the centre dip, now place an
eyelet bolt between 2 STA's with necessary washers - this
can now be used for twins - is the dip really necessary,
pressume it just sits the tank closer to the BP (single tank).
The reason I'm asking is I have a BP and I've been playing around with various configurations. From my basic knowledge and experience I've concluded that a BP with flat STA could be used for single cylinders and an additional flat STA with eyelet bolts and washers could convert this to a flexible twin setup (no manifold but alot more user friendly).
I've tried the flat twin STA's with eyelet bolts but haven't tried the flat STA with just a single cylinder and have never used any other setup.
So is my logic flawed? You guys are the experts so be gentle!
Thanks - Dave.
The easiest way I can think of for mounting independent twins is to use a couple 3/8" or 10mm staple bolts mounted in the ridge of the plate, then route the tank straps through the staples. The tanks will make up tight to the plate and each other, and the cost is single digit dollars.
FT
WYDT
July 11th, 2002, 03:13 PM
DIY = Do it yourself.
All webbing is NOT created equal.... there's stiff webbing and there's soft webbing.
If you decide to build your own harness (or even if you get it from someone else) make sure you get the stiffer webbing.
I have now put together 3 backplates and the stiffer webbing is much harder to rig originally but I much prefer it over the soft stuff once the rig is together. The main problem with the soft stuff is that it is a beotch to put on and doesn't hold it's shape.
Just something I learned from experience... anyone need any limp webbing?? :eek:
large_diver
July 11th, 2002, 03:31 PM
I used FredT's harness kit and didn't find it difficult to rig at least from a "webbing stiffness" standpoint......
dlarbale
July 11th, 2002, 11:21 PM
All,
Thanks for answering the questions regarding BackPlates.
Not too sure I understand what Freds saying with the independant twins and Staple bolts (are these U bolts?). If they are U bolts then wouldn't the cylinders move back and forward (towards the BP) and would both the straps (one form left, one from right) fit onto the U bolt?
Anyone feel like submitting a sketch to clear this up?
Thanks - Dave.
Samir
July 12th, 2002, 02:26 AM
**Just because they know what they are doing and have been diving and refining their gear setup for a
long time doesn't mean you should listen to them. By all mean, take the "blinkers" (what ever that is)
off your head and go get what ever gear you think looks cool, heck get it at the freakin camping
section of walmart, yeah, that’s what I am going to do, I am going to get my webbing at walmart,
and use a dual bladder oms wing, and 10 or 12 D-rings, you know I have been looking alot of pictures
on-line and I bet I could make a killer backplate out of cardboard, it wouldn't be "DIR approved" but
hey who cares right.**
Oh Ok , so unless it has Halcyon writen on it, you scared that JJ might not like you anymore. For @#$% sake, read you bloody post again, and pull you head out of @#$. what the hell is wrong with webbing from a camping store? they use the same stuff anyway.
As I always say and say it again, DIR have good Ideas, nothing worng with their setup, but it doesn't mean you have to use everything they say you have to use!! DIR is to techdiving as PADI is to recreational diving.
If you have money to waste go a head, but if you are wise with it, then why not do the smart way. A dive shop will charge twice the amount on a harness that otherwise you can get for much less through getting the parts outside dive stores.
Another thought is getting a transpac harness, and it is great for travelling , and using for side mounting. Backplates are a pain when travelling.
ElectricZombie
July 12th, 2002, 02:57 AM
If it's the same exact stuff, you would be crazy to pay more...can't find webbing at the camping stores here though.
I personally don't care what brand I end up with as long as it is of good quality and fits my needs. No one manufacturer makes the best of everything.
Burke
July 12th, 2002, 04:28 AM
Did I piss of Samir, I am freakin heart broken.
Just to clear things up, I am not DIR, I don't own 1 single piece of gear from Halcyon, and I have never meet JJ. However, I have learned alot sense getting my OW cert. and as soon as I am no longer a poor college student, I am going to be getting a complete new gear setup, and guess what? I am going to go with something that has been tested by some of the best, in some of the worst places, and found to work well. Sure I could go to REI and get my webbing but as someone already pointed out it would probably not be the right stiffness, but hey, if I can find the exact right thing somewhere for a good price I might go that route. Although I am going to be wanting to get my gear from whichever lds I get my more advanced training from, atleast to start with.
JamesK
July 12th, 2002, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by WYDT
Just something I learned from experience... anyone need any limp webbing?? :eek:
LOL. Yeah, I learned the same lesson. Anyone want about 60 feet of soft webbing?
originally posted by large_diver
I used FredT's harness kit and didn't find it difficult to rig at least from a "webbing stiffness" standpoint......
It is not difficult to rig up with a stiff webbing, however, if you tried it with a soft webbing, you would understand what he is talking about. Rigging with soft webbing is easier then lacingup your shoes.
large_diver
July 12th, 2002, 09:35 AM
James,
You are correct -- I guess I didn't know what I was "missing" since Fred's webbing is stiffer and this is the only harness I've ever put together......;-)
Samir
July 13th, 2002, 12:02 AM
***Did I piss of Samir, I am freakin heart broken.***
Not at all, that dosen't piss me off, what I hate is seeing people getting sucked into this hole by people that think they are better than everyone else. I'm sure you guys don't worship JJ, but there is people out that think he is the one. sad really. Any way.
I agree regarding webbing, don't use the soft stuff, the stiffer webbing will keep it's shape, and sit better on you shoulders. also when wearing stages, the harness will be able to stay on your shoulder and not hang down.
Cheers,
Samir
Blargh
July 16th, 2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by JamesK
LOL. Yeah, I learned the same lesson. Anyone want about 60 feet of soft webbing?
No, really. How soft ? I've been looking for some "car seat belt soft" webbing to replace the crotch strap :)
JamesK
July 17th, 2002, 05:44 AM
It is a little softer than seat belt webbing. If you are using any d-rings, it does not hold them well at all. They shift very easily.
WYDT
July 18th, 2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by JamesK
It is a little softer than seat belt webbing. If you are using any d-rings, it does not hold them well at all. They shift very easily.
That's right James.
If you want Soft webbing Ginnie Springs has it. That's where I got mine. Someone there probably didn't know what they were doing when they ordered it. I had to go to Extreme Exposure to get the right stuff... seems they have a lot of the right stuff at that shop.. :D
Also the "camping shops" some keep mentioning probably also have the softer stuff so be carefull. The stiff webbing should seem really stiff when it's new and will be more difficult to rig.... especially the belt buckle where you have to bend it over 3 or 4 times in a small space! Another experience thing... when working with the stiff stuff use some needle nose pliers to pull it through and around places you need to like on the buckle. Your hands will thank you for it!
DSAO!!
JimC
July 18th, 2002, 12:44 PM
The camping shop I am refering has many diferent types of webbing. from the folded over very soft, doubled up "tube" stuff to the super stiff, needlenose plier stuff.
