Very Frank BP/Wing VS BCD Question

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java

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Hi,
I have a frank question to ask. If I were to take these forums as the gospel everyone and his dog would be using a BP/Wing as opposed to a regular BCD.
Obviously the manufacturers and most LDSs do not share the same opinions that seem rampant on these boards. Is there a way I can get a simple answer to why the market isn't 100% BP/Wings? As much as people seem to slam BCDs I find it hard to believe that so many people are "out of the loop".

Lets face it mainstream manufacturers are not dumb. It is unlikely that they would hold off on flooding the market with BP/Wings wile letting others grab the lead and have to pay catch up.

I guess my question can be distilled to the following:
For regular recreational diving is a BP/Wings really much (any) better?

Let's also leave out the "If you ever plan on doubles or tech diving...." argument. While it's smart to plan for the future its like telling every 16 yr old to by a minivan for the day he has a family, might seem to make sense but it doesn't.

Thanks
 
Originally posted by java
Is there a way I can get a simple answer to why the market isn't 100% BP/Wings?

Seems to me...

1. Many rec divers don't like back-inflate, and

2. Many rec divers like pockets on their BC.

Jarhead
 
I swear by a BP and wings when in doubles.
Aside from that, a nice back inflation BC like the Seaquest Balance works just as well or better. You can't color coordinate a BP (mainly for female divers).
I only used a regular BC for teaching until a couple of weeks ago. I am rediscovering the joy of single tank, weight integrated BC diving. On an upcoming trip to Bonaire I am not even taking a BP.
BP/wings are great where necessary. They aren't always the only answer. The Balance has a padded soft pack, is very low profile, well made, and weight integrated.
Downside is that most decent BC's (like the Balance) are more expensive. Whatever you do, don't buy into the BS that Halcyon wings are the only way to go. Most of the major wing manufacturers produce good wings.
 
If you look at the Automotive Industry you see that last years model and this years are usually not that different, just a few new features, gadgets or style changes, yet there are a lot of people that have to have the latest and greatest.

The same thing happens in every industry including scuba. A BP/wing combo is very simple streamlined and has no flash. In order to keep sales up the manufacturers need to keep reinventing thier BC's with new styles, colors and gadgets to keep sales up.

I have talked with a lot of people who indicate that they do not like BP/Wing combos for one reason or another, however if someone helps them properly fit the harness and works with them for the first couple of dives they realize that the BP/Wing is better. This does not mean that there are not exceptions, some people will prefer one BC over another and that is just the way it is. If you have not tried a BP/Wing I highly recommend it.
 
There are plenty of people on this board that tout other BC's. Many BP users will also wear a jacket sometimes. i.e. teaching a class. The seaquest seams to me to be the most popular of the jacket style BC.

Genesis has recently created a Tech BC that is designed to have a BP inserted. I imagine other mfrs will follow suit.

Try on several jacket style BC's. Try on a backplate and harness. Try them both in the water. Buy what feels most comfortable to you.

Be very careful what you take as gospel on any internet forum on any subject.

TwoBit
 
I own a dive shop, teach and can wear any bc I want. I could wear a different one every day if I want. I only dive in a back plate and wing. And in fact will never again dive in a bc. I wrote a long explanation in the bc section. The short version is that back inflation does a better job of putting your buoyancy where you need it (close to the weight). For perfect trim, the center of buoyancy would be in the same place as the center of gravity. A back plate puts some of the additional weight needed in the right place also(close to the bladder). If more weight is needed you have the option of adding weight to the plate (v or P weight). Because of the crotch strap and harness the whole rig is the most stable. The more exposure suit you wear, the more weight you need the more of a buoyancy change you have with depth the more air you put in your bc the more obviouse all this becomes. Water flows into a jacket. This makes a good parachute. After trying both, our divers are choosing the back plate about every time. I can't keep plates and wings on the shelf but all my bc's have been there a long time. The reason more divers aren't using them is because their recreational diving instructors don't use them or sell them. When I baught my first and even my second bc I didn't know they existed. I have sold as many bp/wings in the last few months as I have bc's in the three years we have been in business. A plate and wing for a single tank even take up less space when packed than most bc's. And in case someone is wondering the markup is way less on the bp/wing than it is on most bc's. But...it sure makes you feel good when the divers from your shop look 100 times beter in the water than divers from other shops.
 
Originally posted by MikeFerrara
I own a dive shop, teach and can wear any bc I want. I could wear a different one every day if I want. I only dive in a back plate and wing. And in fact will never again dive in a bc.

<snip />

The reason more divers aren't using them is because their recreational diving instructors don't use them or sell them. I have sold as many bp/wings in the last few months as I have bc's in the three years we have been in business. .

Do you recommend them for students in your OW courses? Or just to more experianced users? Is there any reason a newbie (I took my open water 5 yrs ago didn't doo any diving since then and am reentering the sport) like me should avoid the wings setup?

Thanks for all the insight
 
Why aren't manufacturers turning out more backplates? Possibly because:

1) Most gear sales take place around the time a diver is first certified. This means the new diver doesn't know much about the market or what he/she should look for in a BC. Performance is not as decisive a factor as it will be to more experienced divers when evaluating BCs.

2) This is the time for a manufacturer to draw attention to his product through flashy gimmicks like dozens of D-rings, lots of fluorescent colors, etc. It not only draws attention to the BC, but to the manufacturer's entire product line. Buy a Brand X BC, and you're likely to look first at Brand X's regulators, masks, etc.

3) There's also a degree of commoditization involved, too. There's not a whole lot you can do to a backplate/wings in terms of adding unnecessary features before you start degrading the system. That means the basic structure will remain unchanged, and relatively undifferentiated among manufacturers. That almost inevitably means commodity pricing.

Manufacturers don't want to compete on price alone, so the marketing departments have extra incentive to add whatever gimmicks they can to differentiate their product from the competition's, and hence have greater pricing power.

The cynic in me suspects that there's also a motive to sell less-than-optimum equipment in order to sell other equipment to "correct" the problems of the first.

Like Mike Ferrara, I won't dive anything else if I have a choice.
 
Since "tech" gear is usually very simple there is less room for mark-up making it less attractive to manufacturers.Additionally "tech" gear is usually more robust and "planned obsolescence" is less likely.I use a B/P for everything,only switching bladders etc...I'd recommend it to anyone,but I respect thier right to dive whatever they want.
 
Like all products BC's are an evolution. Backplates have been around for a long time. My LDS owner said he used a backplate many years ago. If you think of software like a word processor, manufacturers are constantly adding new features. Some of the features are nice, but for the most part aren't necessary and the word processors now require huge amounts of processing power and space for marginal addition of features. BC's have evolved in this way as well. They look good and feel good on land which is where most people try them on. Most of the features are actually ok and potentially do what the manufacturer intended, but just aren't necessary.

Other products like bikes, inline skates etc all have the same path. Inline skates came out with rear brakes and then hand brakes. They also came out in all kinds of colorful plastic shells, removable boots so you can walk around etc. In the end, basic hockey style laced inline skates are the best for advanced skating.

Padded shoulders, back etc. are nice on land, but pretty much irrelevant in water. In fact they add extra bouyancy which then has to be compensated with more weight.

Adjustable straps and quick connects: This allows people to adjust the BC very quickly in the store. I don't really see them as much of a safety hazard, but the buckles always require readjusting because they always slip. I have never undone the shoulder fastex clips and I am not sure how they are useful. Once the harness on a BP is adjusted it stays adjusted.

Pretty colors: people like to look good while you are diving. I like black wetsuits with a little color rather than an all green one for this reason.

Weight integrated, pockets, carrying handles etc are all features that potentially are nice. But then also may just be useless, annoyances or even hazards as a diver really learns his equipment.

I personally like a lot of the DIR configuration ideas and am slowly moving in that direction as money allows. They basically describe the minimum equipment necessary to be safe and they also describe how to configure it to be as unobtrusive as possible. My BC is ok, but has crap dangling everywhere from all the adjustments. I can't really reach the pockets because they are too far up and so aren't useful. There is a ton of padding that adds extra weight out of the water. In the water the padding is buoyant so it requires even more weight. (One of my goals is to always be able to don my equipment by myself so the out of water weight is important). Out of the water the padding is supposed to add comfort, but it is neglible. There are straps everywhere because there are buckles everywhere. I have never unclipped 8/10 of the buckles on the BC.

I have a light on a lanyard that hangs down because it isn't fastened to the harness on both ends. DIR describes a great way to fix this but the problem is I bought a flashlight with a really big head which makes fastening it to the BC unwieldy. The great thing about the message board (and reading and planning in general) is that you can avoid a lot of the pitfalls before you run into them.

So why aren't people all using BP/Wings? Because marketing and advertising is so powerful and the manufacturers really believe that they are solving equipment problems. Name any feature and I guarantee that there is a problem that is claimed to be fixed by it. Eventually gauges, noise makers, emergency lights, etc will all be integrated into the BC.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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