Time to convert - BP/W

OK, I am not quite sure where to post this so I chose BC section.


I am NOT interested in a war over Traditional Vest Vs BP/W
I am NOT interested in DIR vs. whatever.
I want facts not emotional opinions so please keep this to the matter at hand.



I have contemplated the idea of switching to a BP/W for awhile now. It kind of hurts a bit as I just bought a new vest BC not long ago but I see the benefits of the BP setup and it fits into my long term goals diving better.

I would like to eventually dive doubles. Why? More bottom time on wrecks and maybe cave or cavern diving in the future. I am not afraid of learning more technical skills like DECO and am pursuing the idea of Intro Cave and Cavern next year. If nothing more, just to be a better diver.

My concerns about converting to the BP/W setup are more about my lack of knowledge and the fear of buying the wrong equipment.

1-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]What lift of wing should I get? 30#, 40# etc… How would I calculate this?
2-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Are rental DIN tanks readily available if I go that route?
3-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]BP Plastic, SS, Alum, Titanium? I will be traveling to dive for the next year so weight is an issue.
4-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Is a Plastic BP rigid enough?
5-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Rigging, I see the Hogarthian, standard, custom, what’s best, benefits of each and why?
6-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Why reduce all those snag points and then throw dozens of hooks and stuff hanging off the rigging instead of nice neat pockets?
7-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Build vs. buy a pre-built system i.e. Zeagle Escape or Halcyon Eclipse, Pro’s Cons?
8-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Is there anywhere I can go i.e. Book or site that gets into these issues?

Thanks for any advice you can offer…

Scooter

Well laid out question. Your fears should all be put to rest. There is little to go wrong here. The system is simplicity itself.

1. Lift needed is determined by how much you will weigh underwater. Count up the negative buoyancy of your tanks, your light, camera, fins, weightbelt, EVERYTHING, and then buy a wing with enough measured lift to haul it all up plus maybe 10-20%. Here in the warm waters where exposure suits are generally 5mm and there is single tank diving, the 27-30# lift seems common. In colder water, the 36 seems more prevalent. If you go to doubles you WILL need a different wing. I use a 27# wing for my singles tank, and a 40# for doubles.

2. DIN rental tanks are a rarity from what I see. However if you buy DIN regs, you will most likely get a yoke converter with them. Generally included in the cost. So no worries there.

3. Backplates of steel or aluminum tend to be most popular. Steel one's weight 4-6 pounds so you get to shed that off your weightbelt. If you ever move to heavy steel double tanks, you may not NEED that weight of the steel backplate, and this the aluminum one is a popular choice. From what I see, with most divers using 10-25 pounds on a belt, the steel is most popular.

4. You'll get different opinions on this, but honestly, why chance it. You'll NEVER wear out a steel or aluminum plate. It's a buy it for life purchase.

5. The hogarthian rigging is popular because it is the most secure and has no failure points. If you plan to go into overhead training, this will probably be stressed. Plastic buckles probably don't break very much, and offer some quick adjustability, but do add something to worry about. Personally, I use the Hog harness as it's simple and very cheap. Buying a new harness costs about $15 with tax. I can live with that. You'll hear more opinions on this for sure. But think of this. If you go to doubles, you'll be carrying 80-110 pounds of gear on you. Do you REALLY want to have a plastic buckle holding all that weight?

6. Agreed. Look at pictures of cave divers. You'll see VERY little hanging ANYWHERE, and you'll see that the pockets are on the thighs where they add little drag and are easy to access, rather than on a BC.

7. There are advantages to doing it yourself (mainly cost) but I would suggest buying your first one to learn the system. There really isn't a lot to it if you go the Hog rigging. But it's nice to get one thats all configured. There are a number of manufacturers who sell Hog systems including Halcyon, Dive Rite, Deep Sea, and others. There are subtle difference, but nothing that will jump out at you as a new buyer. If you decide to NOT go the Hog route, the options go all over the place (Zeagle, Dive Rite, etc.) but some would argue these are unneccesary complexities.

8. Many. While some despise the DIR idealogy, the fact is, they configure with a standard Hog setup, and it's very clean. They also publish a VERY comprehensive book on ALL this stuff called "Dress for Success" by Dan MacKay. I had all these same questions a few months back. I bought this book, and another one, and found it INVALUABLE. It has descriptions for EVERY piece of the system, how to configure it, and why. Covers doubles and singles, wetsuits, drysuits, plates, harnesses, lights, etc. It's GUE/DIR slanted, but as far as the gear config is concerned DIR is pretty much inline with basic Hog configurations.


There you go. A no BS answer to a no BS question.

1-What lift of wing should I get? 30#, 40# etc… How would I calculate this?

Are you diving wet or dry, how much weight are you using at the moment. You should get a single wing for single, and a double wing for doubles.

2-Are rental DIN tanks readily available if I go that route?

You should get your own tanks, preferably steel, get two that you can band later for doubles.

3-BP Plastic, SS, Alum, Titanium? I will be traveling to dive for the next year so weight is an issue.

This depends on how much weight you need, for those Caribbean trips, you can get a AL/plastic BP.

4-Is a Plastic BP rigid enough?

Yes

5-Rigging, I see the Hogarthian, standard, custom, what’s best, benefits of each and why?

HOG - Tried and tested. Besides, a 100 DIR divers can't be wrong? Drink the Cool-Aid...........

6-Why reduce all those snag points and then throw dozens of hooks and stuff hanging off the rigging instead of nice neat pockets?

Look again, there is nothing hanging off. You have pockets in your drysuit, or you can get those pockets pants you wear over your wetsuit.

7-Build vs. buy a pre-built system i.e. Zeagle Escape or Halcyon Eclipse, Pro’s Cons?

Whether you assemble it, or a manufacturer, it's the same thing, just a little less work.

8-Is there anywhere I can go i.e. Book or site that gets into these issues?

Refer to the GUE sites, maybe do the DIRF class.......

PerroneFord:

1. Lift needed is determined by how much you will weigh underwater. Count up the negative buoyancy of your tanks, your light, camera, fins, weightbelt, EVERYTHING, and then buy a wing with enough measured lift to haul it all up plus maybe 10-20%. Here in the warm waters where exposure suits are generally 5mm and there is single tank diving, the 27-30# lift seems common. In colder water, the 36 seems more prevalent. If you go to doubles you WILL need a different wing. I use a 27# wing for my singles tank, and a 40# for doubles.

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So if I use 261bs with a drysuit (single 80) Im already looking at a 36? I want to switch from jacket to bp/w and am also trying to figure this all out. Will losing all the bulk and drag from a jacket have any effect on how much weight I use? I thank the original poster for this thread because I have all the same questions but they worded it all much better then I could

I'll let someone familiar with drysuits answer this But no, the reduction in bulk and drag won't take weight off. However, your BC is likely positive which means you're carrying addional weight just to sink it, so that weight would come off.

LavaSurfer:

1-What lift of wing should I get? 30#, 40# etc… How would I calculate this?

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30# range works great unless you dive dry with a TON of weight

2-Are rental DIN tanks readily available if I go that route?

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Not in most places, but if you get DIN regs you can use a DIN-to-yoke adapter, so you have the best of both worlds.

3-BP Plastic, SS, Alum, Titanium? I will be traveling to dive for the next year so weight is an issue.

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I travel with a 5# SS plate and don't have a problem with it. I don't know of any Ti plates, but that would be kinda silly. If you're worried about weight, go with Aluminum.

4-Is a Plastic BP rigid enough?

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IMO, a plastic plate causes more problems than it solves (and it doesn't really solve anything)

5-Rigging, I see the Hogarthian, standard, custom, what’s best, benefits of each and why?

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I use a hog configuration, it works the best for me, and is also the cheapest and simplest. Just non-crosses shoulder straps, a waist strap, and a crotch strap. All 2" webbing, with soft webbing for the crotch strap.

6-Why reduce all those snag points and then throw dozens of hooks and stuff hanging off the rigging instead of nice neat pockets?

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Amen. Don't take it, you really don't need it. For an SMB and spool, I have a Dive Rite pocket that slides onto the waist strap on the right side, works like a charm.

7-Build vs. buy a pre-built system i.e. Zeagle Escape or Halcyon Eclipse, Pro’s Cons?

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You might save some money piecing it together. I like the Oxycheq stuff, and I personally dive a Deep Sea Supply wing and plate and absolutely love it.

8-Is there anywhere I can go i.e. Book or site that gets into these issues?

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Yeah, I'll try to find the site

Thanks for any advice you can offer…

Scooter

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Two great answers, Thanks ShakaZulu and PerroneFord.
Make that three, Thanks teknitroxdiver

After looking at both Zeagle and Halcyon, I think I would like to build myself.
The "Systems" seem to be a more backpack style converted Vests than True minimalist setups. Shoulder pads and all.

I am getting some good ideas here and PerroneFord, thanks for the book idea. I found it on the GUE web site.

Being that I travel more often than not and I use very little weight now anyway, I am leaning to either the plastic (Metal reinforced) Dive Rite back plate or an aluminum backplate (I will have it powder coated) and a Hogarthian harness.

I am thinking I could add some really cool pockets to my diveskins suit to hold gadgets or, as you said, buy some pants to go over whatever I am wearing.

The cool thing is that I was worried about the costs of getting into cave diving until I spoke with my wife who informed me that I would be going it alone. Suddenly I have two of everything. 2 Regs, 2 Computers, three flashlights...

Not that I like the idea of her not diving with me but I certainly won’t force her into cave diving. She is happy seeing blue sky above her head.

A powder-coated Al plate will look very cool, be sure and post pictures. However, make sure you understand that you don't HAVE to powder-coat it. It's not going to corrode.

Pockets on the wetsuit are a great way to store stuff, I think H, Oxy, and DR all have pockets suitable for glueing.

Hehehehe.....don't you love the feeling of shiny new gear?

If you're going to be learning cave diving, you'll also want a HID light, also called a can light. Check out the light forums here and www.thedecostop.com for a bunch about those..

I went with a DeepOutdoors Matrix Freedom BP/W then added a 35# single tank and 55# double wings. You have to also buy a single tank adapter, but they're all one time purchases. Personally, I'll never go back to a BC again, I really enjoy diving with it.

Extremely satisfied with fit and finish (although it takes literally HOURS to get a BP/W adjusted perfectly - but again, that's a one time thing)

deepoutdoors.com

Solid, well made, lotsa clips, etc. To answer a previous question, yes, you do clip some things that dangle off your D rings (like secondary lights) but most divers bungee or band them down to keep from looking like a christmas tree.

The only other purchase I'm considering is the addition of two small weight pockets to put "shot" weight into. Maybe stick those on the tank bands or behind my bottom two d rings.

Hope that helps.

D.

If Im diving dry with an single al 80 and use 26 pounds of lead any recommondations on wing? Im looking at the halcyon pioneer. I am still a new diver and expect my weight requirements to go down a bit as I learn better buoyancy.