DIRF, A Sobering Experience

[Lost Yooper]

I suppose this isn't the best forum to post this artical, but it is the technical crowd that I am targeting by writing it. I've been extremely busy since summer started up here and haven't participated as much as I would like here, but I felt I had to share my experience with all of you.

DIRF, A Sobering Experience

In a class of 12 students or so, we had a range of divers from very new to very experienced. There were life-long “rec” instructors to fully certified trimix divers and self-taught divers, such as myself. Some students had been certified for less than a year and some for 20+ years. Never in my life would I have imagined that such a diverse group of divers could be shown to be equally poor divers.

It didn’t take long for Andrew G., Mike Kane, and Dan Mackay to show us how to show ourselves how bad we all were. This was the first time that I have ever seen a PADI instructor and a new diver on a level playing field struggling with precisely the same basic skills. Time in the water, years of experience, or pieces of plastic in your wallet meant absolutely nothing to your success in this class.

Upon completing the class, it was evident to most everyone that the result was nearly a 100% failure rate (in a class where there isn't a pass/fail). No one had done well enough to go onto Tech 1 without significant practice and/or coaching. Some people showed up the first day very confident and outspoken and were preparing to have a great time but quickly found themselves extremely solemn and withdrawn following the very first dive and throughout the rest of the class.

As for myself, I had a no expectations of success for myself. I had known exactly what to expect as far as the challenge. Even though I have a few pieces of plastic issued to me by PADI and TDI, I knew that my skills had never been evaluated since OW. I knew going into the class that my skills were equal to or better than most anyone that I had ever dove with (rec instructors, certified trimix divers, self taught divers, etc.). What I didn’t expect was that all of them, including myself, were wholly inadequate divers – ALL of them.

Upon completing the class, I came to the realization that it would be possible for me to attain GUE quality skills with practice. However, the enormous amount of practice and time that would be required to become proficient with those skills is likely prohibitive for me. Simply put, I don’t have the time, place, or people to go with to achieve that goal. With a dive season that is only four or five months (max), the long period of inactivity would be counter productive to learning and maintaining GUE quality skills (assuming I could achieve them in the first place). I’m not an instructor (nor do I care to be one) that can get in the water ten times per week and practice these skills while training students.

Driving home after the class was a time of reckoning for me. For two hours I thought about forgetting diving all together. I don’t care for shallow Great Lakes diving. I don’t have the time or place to get GUE proficient to do deep wrecks, which I enjoy so much. I started asking myself some very real questions. Do I E-bay everything I have and abandon all the investment of time and energy that I have put into diving? What other hobbies would I enjoy doing (I’m thinking putt-putt golf :))? I could still dive in the tropics while on vacation every now and then, right? Hmmm.

As time went by, my thoughts turned towards accepting that I didn’t want to give up diving. Not having diving in my life seemed impossible and nothing else really interests me. So, I thought about risk assessment. How much of a risk am I to myself and to my buddy? How safe is diving? How are the technical divers dying and getting hurt up here and other places? Am I better than they are (generally, yes)? After an excruciating ride home, I came to the conclusion that I wanted to continue diving. I wanted to continue to dive on the wrecks I enjoy. So, I asked myself what I’m lacking? Why? How do I over come it in the short term and the long term?

Anyway, this class was nothing less than mind boggling. I have greater respect than ever before for what GUE is trying to do, how they do it, and why. I have a greater disrespect than ever before for most all other agencies as well (indeed the industry as a whole). As many of you know, I have been a huge supporter of DIR for the past 5 years or so. I have been a huge supporter of GUE as well, even before I took the class. I have loudly expressed my great dislike of most other agencies and the industry at large as well. This class has confirmed my previously held notions so clearly that I’m virtually speechless. The funny thing is that the instructors didn’t have to tell you squat. They showed you how to show yourself how bad you are and how bad the industry really is. It was an amazing class.

[GP]

Thanks for the informative post. :)

[CincyDiver]

Some examples would be great. I'm about to finish up my PADI divemaster course and would like to hear what kind of skills I may be lacking.

[Dee]

I like what you said about no matter what plastic you hold, your diving skills had never been evaluated since OW. That's something we could all use.

We've all come across those divers who have taken all the tech classes, (with some, diving in a class is about all the diving they do) bought all the RIGHT gear, can quote theories ad nauseum, look good and talk a big game until they get in the water. For those of us who aren't 'tech divers' and these examples of 'tech divers' is all we see, is it any wonder we aren't impressed?

Your honest soul searching is good to see. We could all stand more of it ourselves.

[roakey]

Originally posted by CincyDiver
Some examples would be great. I'm about to finish up my PADI divemaster course and would like to hear what kind of skills I may be lacking.
If you've been trained in the mainstream style, I hate to say it but almost everything about your diving is lacking or has been taught to you wrong. However, if you're going to be an active DM you will have to teach others the same wrong way of doing things since the recreational industry hides behind the word "standards" rather than "correct."

Take the DIRF course, but I'll warn you that you'll have some soul searching to do afterwards because your local shop will DEMAND that you teach inferior skills and techniques to divers that they only offer inferior equipment to. It's very frustrating. I used to be a DM, I could not do that job anymore unless a local shop started carrying the right equipment and offered either an advanced DIRF-like course or an "enriched" OW course that went far above and beyond normal OW requirements.

Roak

[WreckWriter]

Good to see you back. You've been missed.

Tom

[ericfine50]

LY,

Thanks for the report. I will let you know if I feel the same way after my DIR-F class in August.

Eric

[ElectricZombie]

Lost Yooper,

If you don't mind, would you please post exactly what they made you do? I'm very interested in the class and the skills involved. Thanks.

[O-ring]

Mike,
Thanks a lot! ...since it is too late to practice skills for my DIRF (starts Friday), I am on to the mental preparation stage. I am spending this week getting myself geared up to take whatever happens and your post helps me get in the right frame of mind...be prepared to fail at everything and learn as much as possible...ego checks in at the door.

I will post my report when I get back..

[Scubaroo]

Um, so did the instructors try and help you FIX anything, or did they just make you feel so crud about yourself that you came to the point you mentioned where you were actually considering giving up diving? :(

[large_diver]

Yoop,

Glad to see you back. You've been missed around these parts.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up -- very insightful. Of all the DIRF write-ups I've read -- "humbling" is certainly a common theme. To hear that you were humbled by the course, knowing all that you knew about GUE and DIR going in -- that is pretty sobering.

I can hardly wait to learn how bad I suck next month...although as a relative newbie, perhaps this will be easier for me to swallow.

To have the investment you have in gear, experience, etc., and then to be told you are falling short of GUE standards.....that would be a much harder pill to swallow.

BTW -- Ben makes a good point about making you feel like "crud". Was this humiliation conducted in a constructive manner?

Glad you are sticking with it........although the Apeks/Halcyon motherload fire sale on E-Bay would have been a sight to behold ;-)

Keep on keepin' on!

-LD

[tombiowami]

Thanks Yooper for the description. I am in the class with Oring and looking forward to it. My ego was pretty much chopped down in my Rescue class, so I guess I will have the stump left of my ego grinded down this weekend.... alas.


I have read other reports of people who have questioned their diving after taking the DIRF.

Tommy

[O-ring]

...and buy some bondage wings, deco with 80/20, and book some charters off the Seeker...

[GP]

Originally posted by ElectricZombie
Lost Yooper,

If you don't mind, would you please post exactly what they made you do? I'm very interested in the class and the skills involved. Thanks. A group of divers from Minnesota here took the DIR fundamentals class back in May. Here is a link to some of the discussions.
MN DIRF Class (http://www.mnscuba.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advanced;action=display;num=10207310 03)

[Lost Yooper]

Thanks everyone.

Cincy Diver,

Roakey is right. I have the dive master cert. and it's worth about as much as the plastic it's written on. I knew that when I took it and knew it prior to taking this class. This class simply reinforced it. "Master" of what is what I'd like to know. I can assure you the instructors that I took that class with were saying exactly that regarding their own piece of plastic.

ElectricZombie,

The skills were pretty straight forward: kicks, air sharing, valve drills, mask removal (with eyes closed), etc. The trick was the trim and buoyancy control that GUE requires while doing those skills.

Ben,

It is critical for everyone to understand that the instructors did NOTHING to make anyone feel like crud. We took care of that ourselves. There was no humiliation on their part at all. We took care of that ourselves. There was absolutely NO abuse on the part of the instructors.
Yes, they worked exhaustively to help those who had a chance of getting better. In fact, I had individual attention several times trying to arch my friggen back so I could master proper trim and that back kick. I could have spent two weeks with Andrew working on that alone and may still never gotten it.

It was clear to me that the instructors wanted to be there, wanted to help, and wanted to produce better divers. There was absolutely NO feeling of economic pressure from any of them. It didn't feel like they were doing this for the money. There was an overwhelming feeling of mission regarding everything they were doing. This wasn't elitism, or attitude, or any of that BS we hear about on these boards. This was about basic skills that nobody in our class could do regardless of the number dives, types of certs, or type of diver.

LD,

There wasn't any humiliation or abuse on their part. They didn't have to.



Good luck to all who are going to take it. My advice is to go in prepared to fail, prepared to learn, and be prepared to ask yourselves if you have what it takes to practice until you get it. How much dedication do you have? If your an instructor or divemaster (or charter captain) be prepared to take a hard look at your morals because they will stare at you once you've finished.

Mike

[jbd]

Thanks for the informative and some what sobering posts. Your posts lead me to wonder if any OW cert training could teach this level of skill competence? Granted if you could make the class long enough ie 6 to 8 months maybe a year 3 days per week you could probably expect that from divers in general. How many would get into scuba if that were the case.

How many dives have you or anyone done that require that level of skill competence? Probaly not many. I know that most of my dives haven't required that level of skill. So the reality seems to be that a lesser competence level is in general acceptable for most recreational diving and probaly a fair amount of technical diving as well.

This does mean that one should not strive for a higher level of skill but neither should one punish oneself too severely for not already having attained that level when it hasn't been needed in the past.

You make a good point about the time and commitment to practice to this level of attainment. I don't know the wrecks in the Great Lakes but pick your favorite deep lake wreck and tell me that you would dive that site for the sole purpose of performing these skills. Truth is I doubt any of us would because we went to see the wreck not take our mask off with our eyes closed and replace it without losing postion in the water column by more than a few inches.

Knowing what you know now from this DIRF course; what specific recommendations would you make to change dive training as it exists now?

I know that I feel I have a lot to learn from you through this board and diving with you in the future.

[tombiowami]

From what I have read Andrew teaches the skills in his OW classes now and is designing a GUE OW class for the future.

Tommy

[NetDoc]

I completely humiliated myself during my ITC... didn't need no help! When you are being instructed by a dream team, you will always look pale in comparison. And, they make it look so stinking easy too! Remember, nothing takes the taste of humiliation out of your mouth quite like Bee-Bop-A-Ree-Bop Rhubarb pie!

[Lost Yooper]

JBD,

The problem isn't the skills that GUE requires you to do. Rather, it's the enormous amount of bad habits that you've started out with from which you base everything you do. Simply put, had I/we started out on the right track in the first place, such skills would have been significantly easier. Now, I knew of these bad habits prior to taking this class and had been striving to break myself of them for years. I succeeded in unlearning most of them, but I had no idea how far I had to go.

It will be interesting to see students fresh out of GUE's new OW program. It won't be as easy or as cheap or as fast as a PADI class, but I have NO doubt the quality of students produced will be stunning. Their biggest problem will be marketing.

Mike

Ooops, I didn't answer your question JBD. What would I change? The list is too long. The whole industry is screwed up from top to bottom and everything that supports it. It's a money driven industry and skill doesn't even rank on the priority list. It's so bloody obvious it's difficult to articulate.

[roakey]

Originally posted by jbd
Thanks for the informative and some what sobering posts. Your posts lead me to wonder if any OW cert training could teach this level of skill competence?
OW should teach you how to stay alive and “springboard” skills only. What’s very important is that it should lay a sound foundation, NOT teach you how to do things wrong, which is what standard OW training is full of. For a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of wrong things that OW teaches you:

Fin pivots
Vertical ascents and descents
Skills executed while kneeling
Descents that terminate with landing on the bottom
Lip service to buddy techniques
Fashion is your most important consideration when purchasing equipment

A shop that teaches OW must also show students the BP/wings setup as a viable alternative to the typical jacket BC setup. I know the markup isn’t as good and I know that you’re not guaranteed a later BC sale after they realize that they bought junk the first time around, but you’ll end up with safer, more skilled and happier divers in the long run and that profit is immeasurable.

Specific question to CincyDiver: Can you execute a demonstration-quality fin pivot?

Roak

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper

The skills were pretty straight forward: kicks, air sharing, valve drills, mask removal (with eyes closed), etc. The trick was the trim and buoyancy control that GUE requires while doing those skills.


I just watched the skills drills on the fifthd.com website.

Wow. Just Wow.

[wetman]

As far as second guessing yourself and current techniques, isnt it a bit harsh to reconsider diving completely?

No matter how bad what i do now is or what poor technique i may have demonstrated, i've enjoyed the vast majority of diving that i've done and no one can take that away.

I think the best you can do is just try to constantly improve and learn from past experience. And DIRF may help you get closer to the goal. I'll be taking it soon i think so we'll have to see.

I think sometimes we forget this stuff is supposed to be FUN!

Steve

[herman]

Mike,

Could you possibly give us some examples of exactly what these "bad habits" are?


Herman

[tombiowami]

Along these same lines, I just took Naui Rescue. A big reason I took it was I knew the instructor and what type of training I had in store. I was really shocked at the book provided, which he said cost around 47$. It was still full of the shlock stock photos of reef divers dragging regs and consoles in the sand in there relentless pursuit to destroy the coral. I don't think I saw a single picture of someone in good form. Most of the info in the book provided was very basic and common sensical. I would a say about 5 pages of useful stuff, the rest color and glitz and saying the same thing over and over and over. It was hard to tell if it was Skin Diver mag or a first aid rescue book. Remember this is what Naui (and I think Padi) use as the spring board to the"pro" courses like dive master, instructor, etc. sad...



Tommy

[MikeFerrara]

Let me through some things out. First off we do teach some skills while kneeling. For instance we must teach reg recovery and clearing early on in order to ensure survival. At this time students have not yet learned how to get neutral. The same is true for other skills. Some skills simply must be taught in the beginning. The fin pivot is simply a method of getting someone neutral the first time. Contact with the bottom adds some control. A good instructor will not teach poor trim so that one can perorm a fin pivot. Now, with all that said, there is nothing in the PADI standards that says I can't have students initiate air sharing while horizantal and neutral. There is nothing in the standards that says that on dive four we must sit on the bottom and remove our masks. Much of this is up to the instructor. In fact, an air sharing swim is required. An instructor can do if fast and bad or slow and good.

Like the rest of you I learned all this while kneeling on the bottom only. Well, the first tme I lost a mask there was no bottom handy. We then practiced mask removal and replacement while neutral. The same for many other skills. The thing you really must remember here is that the average vacation diver doesn't give a double flying #### and will not put in the time to look like a DIRF graduate.

I tell each student that the intent is to never touch the bottom. I show footage of cave diving. Not to encourage cave diving but because that is where you must look to see proper trim. I can't get this much out of students in an OW course but this is where we show it to them so they know what the goal should be.

You are all correct in that most DM's and instructors can't do it and don't know they should be able to. My DM's, however, can do it.

[Lost Yooper]

Wetman,

You have to consider the type of diving I do. There simply isn't any room for error or inefficiencies. That class brought out all of our problems and the instructors made sure each student knew about them. It took some time, but I did come to the realization that I'm still a relatively safe diver. In fact, I'm safer than most that I have dove with and been around.

So, no, I'm not going to give up diving. I'm going to go away from that class with an enormous amount of information and try to implement as much of it as I can. I don't think I'll ever get to that level of skill without a ton of time and energy spent. In fact, I don't think I can do it without spending time with someone more skilled in such techniques than I am. Basically, we have to come up with contigencies to counteract our deficiencies as best we can. We have to practice what we can, when we can. We have to accept more risk than we previously didn't realize we had to accept.

Mike

[Lost Yooper]

Herman,

Finding examples is easy. Simply take a look in your PADI OW dive manual for examples of what not do and what not to look like underwater. Take a look at all of the manuals, videos, TV shows, etc. for examples and then compare them to the Fifth D videos.

Look, I'm not saying that if you don't do it GUE's way you're all going to die. Trust me, if that's the case, I'll be dead long before most of you. What I am saying is that this money driven industry has shamlessly placed skill requirements at the bottom of the barrel.

Mike

[Simplicimus]

I went through the DIRF class with Mike this last weekend. I was the least experienced diver in the class, by far. The class was the most useful learning experience in the shortest amount of time that I have ever been through, not just in diving, but in my whole life.

"Sobering" and "humbling" are two words that spring immediately to mind to describe the experience, but other words are "respect," "gratitude" and "determination."

To watch myself on video utterly unable to maintain proper attitude in the water for 10 seconds in row while attempting to execute what should be simple propulsion skills like a frog kick, was both sobering and humbling. But, while Andrew's criticism of my deficiencies was direct and unequivocal, it was not in any sense brutal or demeaning. As we spent the evening after the first set of dives reviewing the video of our underwater exploits, Andrew paused and reversed the video, pointed out what each diver was doing right, and what each diver was doing wrong. And he didn't just say it. He showed us. He cleared a table, laid down on it, and demonstrated exactly what he wanted. Then he took some of the divers, like me, and put us on the table, right in the middle on the video review, and showed us exactly what we should be doing and how to do it. This, by the way, was after he had spent the evening before, among other things, doing exactly the same types of demonstrations on the floor, on a stool and on a table. And, it was after we had all spent time the morning before these dives, laying on tarps practicing these same kicks, with the instructors first demonstrating, then moving from diver to diver helping each of us to try to get the muscle memory of how to do it.

The instructors are intelligent, articulate, and phenomenally skilled. They could be doing anything in diving, but they take the time, week after week, to get in the water and try to teach yet another crew of sloppy divers what we all should have learned the first minute we got in the water. I have enormous respect for their skill, their knowledge, and their devotion to improving our sport. I also have deep respect for the people in the class like Mike who have had hundreds of dives, are obviously superior divers to just about everyone in the water, and still are determined to be better. I am grateful for the experience, because even though I'm a mess in the water, I now know what I should be doing to improve, and I have a road map of how to get there. Like Mike, one of my first reactions was to question whether I should quit pretending I am a diver, chuck it in as a bad job, and go work on my golf game. Now, 24 hours after the class is over, I'm just determined to practice what I learned and be the best diver I can be.

Some observations:

The skills we had such trouble with are basic skills that EVERYONE should be able to do proficiently as part of basic training and certification as a diver. Of course, NO ONE gets this training through the conventional agencies. Every agency wants to crank divers through the certification process as quickly and painlessly as possible, both for the divers and for the instructors. The fastest and simplest thing seems be to teach people on their knees, in a little campfire circle on the platform or pool bottom. Conventional training is anchored to a fixed, shallow floor. How does this prepare a diver for an out of air situation or a lost mask when the floor is 100 or 500 or 1000 feet below? I think I had a better OW class than most, but we did not spend one minute talking about, let alone practicing, remaining nuetrally bouyant in the water column, or how to move in an efficient horizontal attitude through the water instead of a drag-inducing vertical attitude. This should be a rock-bottom basic skill, not an issue for new divers to sort out on their own later, if ever.

These are not lofty goals that only the elite can reach. GUE teaches the exact same skills we learned in the DIRF class to ordinary off-the-street neophytes (pretty much like me) as part of their OW class. These student are taught that they CANNOT touch the bottom of the pool. They are taught to perform all the skills horizontally, without losing bouyancy, in the controlled environment of a pool, under the supervision of instructors. It is NOT too much to handle either for the students or the instructors. These ordinary students get out of their OW class looking like elite divers compared to all the rest of us. Every new diver should be taught this way. It can be done.

To answer some questions:

What skills are taught? This is in incomplete summary:

Attitude in the water. Why a horizontal attitude is important. How to acheive and maintain a horizontal attitude. How to tilt around your center of gravity to a head up or head down position.

Movement in the water. Why certain propulsion techniques are better than others, which techniques are appropriate in which environments. How of perform different kicks, such as frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick. How to reverse, how to rotate over a point, and why you might want to. Why you should not use your hands to move yourself underwater.

Bouyancy. Why you need to control your bouyancy. How to control your bouyancy.

Basic 4 skills. Regulator removal and replacement. Switching from the primary to the backup regulator and back. Flood and clear mask. Mask removal and replacement (with eyes closed to simulate a zero visibilty situation). All skills to be performed horizontally, without losing bouyancy control.

Safety drills. Out of air drills. Donation of primary regulator, switch to backup, control of out of air diver and gas supply, buddy air share while swimming, controlled ascent while air sharing. All to be performed horizontally, without losing bouyancy control.

Predive Planning and Procedures. Team equipment check while dry and in the water. Team dive planning- scenario, air supply, depth, distance, duration, decompression.

Valve drills. Open and close all valves underwater, maintaining proper attitude and bouyancy. Done for both single and double tanks.

Situational awareness. Understand and manage your equipment, environment and team. Know where you are, what you are doing, what is around you, what might go wrong, and what you will do when it does. How to swim with a buddy or group of buddies, maintaining constant communication, either actively or passively. How to follow a line. How to find a lost line. How to prioritize tasks in an emergency.

Equipment. How to fit harness and backplate. Hose routing and management. Hose lengths. Proper placement of equipment. Why, as opposed to whim and caprice, DIR equipment is configured the way it is.

Gas usage planning. Rock bottom and turn pressure tank psi for different size tanks, at different depths, under various dive conditions.

DIR philosophy. Why DIR is the way it is. Why it works. Why various alternatives are unsafe, or less efficient.

Another question was asked about where is the fun in going through all this? Of course the only reason we are in this sport is we want to have fun. But watching a body get hauled out of the water is not fun. It's less fun if it's your body. To be competent and confident in the water is the true way to have the most fun. This class will help you have fun.

I'll conclude this by saying thank you to Andrew, Mike and Dan for putting me on the road to being a better diver.

Bill

[Tavi]

Thanks for the write up, and Welcome to the boards!!

I go back and forth between wanting to take DIRF and not wanting to.
Reading posts like yours pushes me toward the wanting to.
Maybe next year when my son has more experience, we can do it together.

Mike,

Hearing you say things like humbling and sobering, leads me to believe that DIR is something a lot of divers are working towards, but few really have mastered.

[Lost Yooper]

Hey Bill,

I was looking forward to hearing other views of the class. I'm glad you chose to continue as well. Maybe Jack, Detroit Diver, will chime in with his thoughts too. I see that Bob wrote his report on DiverLink.

Tavi, you're right.

Mike

[wb416]

Detroit GUE Fundies class (http://diverlink.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/forum/?cmd=get&cG=131363937303&zu=313136393730&v=2&gV=0&p=)

Mike... Mike... Mike... Don't be so rough on yourself... you were asked to assimilate an incredible amount of information this weekend that you hadn't had an opportunity to work on before. What was your last dive of the weekend like compared with your first dive? Chew on what you've learned and internalize it. Don't despair...

I don't agree with your original assessment that everyone did so poorly... granted, after Saturday night there was some intense self-evaluation going on, but by Sunday afternoon there were some real turn arounds occuring... You got beat hard with a big stick, but I know that your bruising will heal... in this particular case "What doesn't kill you will indeed make you a better diver!!"...

All in all, there were some that were encouraged toward Tech 1 after they get some polishing time in the water...

Do I think I could enter a Tech 1 yet in July with a reasonable degree of success... hmm... I'd hate to take the chance and take a severe beating... would my odds improve in a couple of months... you betcha... and what if I wait until Spring... I mean, what's the rush anyway... those deep wrecks aren't going anywhere!

For those interested in reading my report, forgive me, but I posted it on Diverlink yesterday...

Bill makes some excellent points about the teaching style used.... excellent stuff! Every teachable opportunity was used as an object lesson, both for positive and negative. I made some comments in my report referencing Bill, but I can see from his post here that he took an incredible amount of information home with him despite the brevity of his dive career. Way to hang in there Bill!! I had my doubts 'cause you were at an extreme disadvantage with little experience, but you didn't have to unlearn bad habits and you have a good baseline to build on!

cwb (Bob)

[Lost Yooper]

You may be right, Bob. I hold myself to pretty high standards as it is, so it doesn't take much for me to notice. I know I wasn't taking it as bad as some others there. I still had a great time.

I talked with Mike Kane a lot about Tech 1. He told me that there's roughly a 50% failure rate among students who took DIRF first. He said those who didn't take DIRF were almost gaurenteed to fail. Even 50% of DIRF students is stunning to me.

Mike

[CincyDiver]

Originally posted by roakey

Specific question to CincyDiver: Can you execute a demonstration-quality fin pivot?


For what it's worth, yes I can. I just had my skills evaluation for Divemaster this past weekend.

I liken the C-card you get from PADI to a driver's license. You learn some basic driving skills and out on the road you go. Does that make you qualified to drive NASCAR? No way. But you have to start someplace. At least people are getting in the water and enjoying it. Most people just want to go diving once or twice a year on their vacations and that's it. I just want to help them be able to do that.

As for me, I want to become a better diver so I am going to take DIRF sometime in the near future. I have my fundamentals book and I agree with the philosophy. But I don't believe that level is for everyone.

[roakey]

The question was: Can you execute a demonstration-quality fin pivot?


Originally posted by CincyDiver
For what it's worth, yes I can. I just had my skills evaluation for Divemaster this past weekend.

Sorry CincyDiver, that was a trap.

Then even as a Divemaster your trim is all wrong. You've been taught wrong. The instructor that taught you has been taught all wrong and is passing this onto their students. You're going to teach others this way. You're officially part of the problem now.

If you can do a fin pivot your legs are heavy. You will be unable to hover motionless above a reef enjoying it without either finning (and therefore moving about) to keep your fins up or letting your feet fall down on the reef.

Perfect, horizontal trim IS a skill for everyone. By rarely do you find the mainstream instructors teaching it. Or their Divemaster’s either. This is mostly because it's nearly impossible to get correct, horizontal trim with mainstream equipment. If horizontal trim were taught, no one would buy the pretty, poorly-functioning BCs that festoon the walls of most shops.

Take the DIRF course. Find out just how badly you've been taught. You'll be amazed.

Roak

[tombiowami]

Maybe this is good...
Maybe this is bad...

But, what is a fin pivot?

Tommy

[roakey]

Originally posted by tombiowami
But, what is a fin pivot?
It's where you lay face down on the bottom of the pool and through breathing cause your upper body to raise and lower, pivoting on the tips of your fins.

I can do the same thing if I throw on a couple ankle weights (another really bad invention by the mainstream industry). Because in order to perform it I need something to hold my feet down. Otherwise my entire body comes off the bottom as a unit in a horizontal orientation.

Roak

[tombiowami]

Thanks, I feel more included now. This was not taught in Naui OW. When would this skill ever be useful?

Tommy

[MikeFerrara]

If you are trimmed correctly you will be able to maintain any position desired. A fin pivot is more dificult for some when trimmed correctly but it can be done. I won't argue that it is the best methode but the purpose of the fin pivot is to get someone neutral for the first time in a controled manner. Contact with the bottom provides a reference (a measure of control). Yes, if not presented properly it can teach a diver to go through life foot heavy. However the fin pivot is not the end of buoyancy control training it is only step one. In a PADI course the fin pivot is followed by neutral buoyant swimming, neutral buoyant air sharing and hovering. Those skills when combine, if administered concienciously, will (can) result in a properly trimmed diver who effortlessly hovers in the horizantal position.

Roakey, To prove it to yourself pretend you are ascending up out of Olsen Sink. If you can't maintain any position other than horizantal you won't fit. The main benefit of proper trim is the ability to maintain any position desired with minimal effort. How do you teach buoyancy control?

[O-ring]

When would this skill ever be useful?

...just used to show how you can control buoyancy through breathing. I think Naui or maybe SSI teaches a horizontal hover instead...much better idea...

[CincyDiver]

Originally posted by roakey
Then even as a Divemaster your trim is all wrong.


This skill has nothing to do with trim. This falls under establishing neutral bouyancy. This information is straight from the PADI instructor manual. The next step after establishing neutral bouyancy is the neutral buoyancy swim. And I quote, "Emphasize that they're simulating swimming over a reef and that they must avoid contact with the bottom or sides." I won't disagree that there are bad instructors out there who don't point this out to their students. You have to start someplace and this is their first baby step of controlling buoyancy with their lungs.


Originally posted by roakey
If you can do a fin pivot your legs are heavy.


I'm sorry but this makes no sense. I keep a horizontal attitude in the water, yet I can do a fin pivot. These are two separate things. See MikeFerrara's posts above.

I totally agree that horizontal trim is a skill for everyone. If your instructor does not teach this, find a new instructor.

[trheeltek]

I'd like to throw in a couple thoughts on this, because as a PADI DMC and a budding tec diver who's about to take a DIR class, I've gone through a lot of the same arguments with myself I see here.

First, I value all of my diving training experience, including my PADI DM training, because I learned from everything, and I'm a much better diver for it. However, I'm currently struggling to reconcile the approach to diving I learned recreationally with the approach I learned in technical training. What I think I've come to see is that for me, diving is diving. The mental approach I was taught for technical diving is the correct one in my mind, and that's the biggest problem I have with my recreational training, and what I don't see enough focus on from the DIR converts. I've read JJ's stuff and he seems to get it, but the herd, not so much.

I think the argument for DIR is weakest when based on skills and gear, frankly, since the average OW diver doesn't need the skills or the gear that a cave diver does. Sure, they won't hurt, but the vast majority of OW divers go down, swim badly, come up, and go home safe and happy. Someone used the license analogy, and it's a good one - you don't need to be Jeff Gordon to drive the kids to school. I was thoroughly humbled by my first (non-GUE) cave class, believe me, and I've got a Hogarthian doubles rig, a sore lower back from arching it, and a redesigned frog kick to prove it. However, I dove fanatically, and fairly safely, a whole lot before I'd ever seen a backplate and wings. A well-maintained set of recreational gear and a mature attitude are about all the equipment the average recreational diver should ever need. As part of that mature attitude they should work to improve, but they don't need to be perfect or even very good to have a good time.

I believe the biggest value of the DIR system (and any good cave/tech instruction, in my experience) is the mental approach to diving, the careful preparation and planning, and thorough knowledge of yourself, your abilities, etc. As above, the biggest problem is the approach to diving that is taught - or rather, not taught - in recreational diving. Ignorance is the real problem I have with dive training today, not skills. While lip service is paid to topics like dive planning, etc, the wrong things are emphasized, students don't practice the skills, and generally the divers just aren't mentally prepared for extraordinary circumstances. An example: which is more dangerous: 1) a rec diver who accidently overstays an NDL, notices, ascends, calmly does a few minutes of hang time as a result as per the tables or computer he carried with him, and surfaces with 800 PSI, or 2) a diver who dives to 130' on air with a single 80 cub. ft cylinder and one reg, who stays for the appropriate NDL time and then surfaces with 300-400 PSI, with no idea how to calculate how long his gas supply will last at that depth. I've actually seen divers in the first instance freak when their computer went into deco and surface immediately with tons of back gas, because DECO IS EVIL - or so they've been not-taught. I've seen a ton of diver #2s off the NC coast, getting back on the boat grinning with 200 PSI in their single 80, not understanding that a first stage failure could mean death. Both of these problems are caused because their training emphasized that time (i.e NDL) is the most important thing, when really, AIR is the most important thing. How many recreational divers know what a SAC rate is, let alone have calculated theirs? How much time is spent in class computing SAC (none) compared to how much is spent on the dive table they'll never use after they buy a computer (a lot)? Sorry, pet peeve, the point is, there were a whole lot of gaps in my training that didn't get filled until I went tec or self-educated, and they shouldn't have been so new to me. Diving is diving.

Anyway, I ran on a little long there, so I'll stop. This is a work in progress. I'm currently just a guy trying to figure it out for himself. If DIRfund changes everything, I'll come back and tell you about it.:confused: :banging:

[seabass]

I am a big believer in epidemiology in proving whether activities are safe are not. In the end, statistically speaking, current training does not result in massive numbers of injuries and is therefore pretty safe. Could it be safer? Of course, but potentially at diminishing returns. At some point the cost per percentage of safety gained is just not worth it. Theoretically speaking there are a ton of problems with the way open water is taught today, but based on statistics, diving is pretty safe and the proof is in the epidemiology.

Insurance companies are a pretty good regulator on quality of training. As the training goes down, people get hurt and insurance goes up (PADI's instructor increases could be, but aren't necessarily, a signal of this). As insurance goes up, the certifying agencies will do what is necessary to decrease their insurance premiums or go out of business.

[neil]

Originally posted by O-ring

...just used to show how you can control buoyancy through breathing. I think Naui or maybe SSI teaches a horizontal hover instead...much better idea...

Exactly! The ONLY purpose of the fin pivot is to let the raw beginner see what breathing does to buoyancy, and how to work the BC controls without floating all over the place.THEN you get them horizontal.
This is also not the only way to teach buoyancy.
Instructors who think this is an actual practical skill are not thinking. The real question is why the ***k do PADI instructors have students do this in OW?

Mike,
Forget for a minute WHAT they are teaching and who they are.
I, me, myself, would not be anxious to associate myself with a group that can't seem to instruct well enough to pass more than 50% of students, even allowing for lack of talent and sheer stupidity. The course is good, the goals admirable, but they need better instructors, IMO.

Neil

[Scuba446]

Wow,
I knew DIR was good stuff - but this is pretty scary.

Just keep at it Yooper - as least you realize your weaknesses and thats the first step in getting better. For everyone!

I know that I want to take that class within the next year.

Being a newly certified OW diver, I feel in some ways, maybe thats GOOD (and bad), at least to the point of myself not having dropped a ton of money on C-cards. And I had considered taking the Wreck course soon. I think I'll hold off on that and take DIRF first!

This is EXACTLY the kind of stuff my DIR friends out west have been talking about to me from day one when I got interested in diving and signed up for my BOW course - laden with my BC, console, Fastex buckled stuff, and standard hose routing.

Looks like they were right all along. I realize that DIR gear does not make the DIR diver! Sure, I have selected the right gear, so far - but thats only a small part of the equation....

I don't think one has to be very educated to see now that many of the agencies (mine included) aren't teaching the right kinds of skills and endorsing the right kinds of gear for the safety of our divers.

I have little faith in even the basic skills I have been taught in my OW course. I'm sure in a whole 30 minutes into a DIR class, my self opinion of my OWN mastery of my skills will be shattered!

And, thats probably a good thing for my dive buddies and myself!

[JamesK]

Originally posted by neil

Mike,
Forget for a minute WHAT they are teaching and who they are.
I, me, myself, would not be anxious to associate myself with a group that can't seem to instruct well enough to pass more than 50% of students, even allowing for lack of talent and sheer stupidity. The course is good, the goals admirable, but they need better instructors, IMO.

Neil

Are you talking about GUE instructors not being good?

[O-ring]

I'm sure in a whole 30 minutes into a DIR class, my self opinion of my OWN mastery of my skills will be shattered!

I have been prepping for this all week...I am re-reading the DIRF book (for the third time) and finalizing traveling arrangements with my buddies (there are 4 of us that dive together in the class). I don't take criticism well, so I would say I have worked on my attitude lately as much as my trim :D

I am thinking about bringing a nice cold bottle of milk so I can sit back and try to enjoy my humble pie instead of fighting it...

[Lost Yooper]

Niel,

GUE holds divers to a standard that I have never seen before. They simply will not hand out a piece of plastic to someone who doesn't deserve it -- the way it should be. I don't know how Tech 1 is taught, but I suspect that Andrew, Mike, and Dan would show those students as much attention as they showed us. You cannot hold up an entire class waiting for others who should have practiced more. I would feel far more anxious being associated with an agency that allows divers to slide through for economic reasons. Now that's scary and it's prevailant in this industry.

It makes me sick to see new divers (or any divers) get their piece of plastic who cannot maintain simple buoyancy, keep track of their buddy, or manage their air. It seems to me that the only reason diving is so safe is the relatively dependable equipment on the market. It's not the skill of the divers out there, IMO.

Mike

[MikeFerrara]

Diving is not safe because of the equipment. It is safe because most people only do canned dives under supervision. When divers venture out on their own they don't do nearly as well. Most diving is like any other tourist activity in that it requires very little knowlege or skill. One major point that many of you are missing is that most divers don't give a sh#t about being a great diver. The are underwater sight seeing. If they can see the reef, they are happy. For most diving will not receive any more time or effort that any other casual hobby. If you go to a golf course what do you think the average score would be? How about the bowling alley?

more later...

[Lost Yooper]

I'm not sure if most divers could safely handle an equipment failure or multiple failures with the skills they are "taught". I believe most divers rely solely on their equipment rather than their skills. I do see your point though, Mike, and I agree.

Mike

[trheeltek]

FYI, for those of you taking the DIRFund class this weekend in Raleigh NC, word is JJ himself is teaching it. Presumably the guy who wrote the book is a pretty good instructor - should be fun.

[O-ring]

FYI, for those of you taking the DIRFund class this weekend in Raleigh NC, word is JJ himself is teaching it. Presumably the guy who wrote the book is a pretty good instructor - should be fun.

JJ and MHK are teaching it...I think there are 10-12 in our class. Looking forward to it..

[Rick L]

Hi
Iv'e been reading lots of dir type discussions of late.
My question is: Is it still fun and enjoyable to dive?
It almost makes every part of diving sound like work?
Or is there difference in the type of dir diving you are doing(rec deep cave wreck?)Or do you keep the same mental attatude
no matter what you are doing in the water? Or is it that you get so used to doing all the prep stuff that it becomes 2nd nature to you?
Rick L

[JamesK]

Now, I have yet to go through a DIR class, but I do adopt many of their philosophies. So take my answer with a grain of salt.


Originally posted by Rick L
Hi
Iv'e been reading lots of dir type discussions of late.
My question is: Is it still fun and enjoyable to dive?
It almost makes every part of diving sound like work?
Or is there difference in the type of dir diving you are doing(rec deep cave wreck?)Or do you keep the same mental attatude
no matter what you are doing in the water? Or is it that you get so used to doing all the prep stuff that it becomes 2nd nature to you?
Rick L

Yes, it is still fun to dive. Every dive should be fun in one way or another.

It is work. If you do not work at it, you do not get better.

It does depend on the type of diving I am doing. If I am doing a cave dive, obviously my dive plan is a lot different than if I am doing a 45 foot reef dive.

I do keep the same mental attitude though, no matter how routine or simple the dive.

Yes, the stuff becomes second nature very quickly actually.

[VTWarrenG]

Neil,

Strangely enough, the failure rate of some of my high-level engineering and physics courses in college was very close to 50% -- yet the professors and the University were still highly praised.

- Warren

[roakey]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
If you are trimmed correctly you will be able to maintain any position desired. A fin pivot is more dificult for some when trimmed correctly but it can be done.

Roakey, To prove it to yourself pretend you are ascending up out of Olsen Sink. If you can't maintain any position other than horizantal you won't fit. The main benefit of proper trim is the ability to maintain any position desired with minimal effort. How do you teach buoyancy control?
I think we’re mostly in agreement here. There’s a world of difference between being able to maintain an orientation and a fin pivot. I can pitch up or down and maintain that pitch because my center of gravity is more or less in the same position, front-to-back and side-to-side, as my center of buoyancy.

This is quite different than a fin pivot, that requires your CoB to be forward of your CoG in order to work. You’re right, you can do it, off the top of my head when wearing a drysuit I could probably stick my arms straight out in front of me to move my CoB forward and accomplish a pivot, but this is neither a natural position nor a desirable behavior. A pivot is a simplification of a more complex behavior and as such can be a useful tool, but I don’t think most instructors see it that way. PADI doesn’t even have a clue as to what correct horizontal trim is! I’ll address this in my next post.

Where I disagree with your claim “A fin pivot is more dificult for some when trimmed correctly but it can be done.” Is that holding all variables the same except for breathing, you can’t rise horizontally off the bottom on one breath and do a pivot on the next, you need to change *something* in order to accomplish a shift in the CoG or CoB.

Roak

[JamesK]

A fin pivot is impossible when you have your knees bent at 90degrees behind you going straight up. hehehe.

[roakey]

Originally posted by CincyDiver
This skill [a fin pivot] has nothing to do with trim. This falls under establishing neutral bouyancy.
The fin pivot is to assist in establishing neutral buoyancy, but the fact that you can do it has EVERYTHING to do with trim. This is my point. You have to be trimmed wrong in order to do it.

Originally posted by CincyDiver
This information is straight from the PADI instructor manual. The next step after establishing neutral bouyancy is the neutral buoyancy swim. And I quote, "Emphasize that they're simulating swimming over a reef and that they must avoid contact with the bottom or sides." I won't disagree that there are bad instructors out there who don't point this out to their students. You have to start someplace and this is their first baby step of controlling buoyancy with their lungs.
Absolutely wonderful quote! And from the instructor manual no less! A perfect example of what PADI is teaching wrong. Swimming? You can overcome all sorts of poor, let’s call it “static” trim if you’re swimming! While swimming you can supply a downward vector to keep your “heavy” legs off the bottom. Dynamic trim is easy, but tiring, since you HAVE to swim in order to maintain horizontal trim. Now STOP swimming and see what happens: Your legs drop down on the bottom. Your trim when swimming has zippo to do with your static trim. But, thanks to your quote we all know that’s what PADI is teaching. Just ducky.

Originally posted by CincyDiver
I'm sorry but this makes no sense. I keep a horizontal attitude in the water, yet I can do a fin pivot. These are two separate things. See MikeFerrara's posts above.
It makes perfect sense. You’re PADI trained. You don’t know what you don’t know. You think that swimming trim is what’s important and it’s not, it’s static trim. This is how you keep a horizontal attitude in the water and still do a fin pivot. You’re comparing your dynamic, swimming trim to your static, fin pivot trim. As for Mike’s post, please read my reply above.

Originally posted by CincyDiver
I totally agree that horizontal trim is a skill for everyone. If your instructor does not teach this, find a new instructor.
So, are you? Maybe even a new agency?

There’s a even more to this, as well as an exercise to develop better buoyancy control and horizontal static trim in http://www.scubaboard.com/t8232/s.html, I suggest interested folks go read that note.

Roak

[large_diver]

Roak......that link leads to the main scubaboard page.......

[Lost Yooper]

That's exactly right, Roak. That's almost word for word what they were talking about this weekend. Weighting and harness/tank placement is critical in achieving this proper trim. Almost everyone was considerably overweighted this weekend and thereby couldn't have gotten it if they wanted to for that reason alone. In fact, Andrew was complaining of back spasms from arching because he was slightly overweighted!

Mike

[roakey]

OK, this is right off the top of my head but I’ll throw it out for discussion anyway. Us DIR zealots :) talk about “gliding” with the rig. We usually point to the hydrodynamics of the rig as to the reason we can glide like we do. Not to downplay the rig, but I think a lot of it has to do with trim too. Having correct static trim allows you all the time in the world between kicks, unlike correct dynamic trim. I can kick, glide forward, look around, check on my buddy, come to a complete stop, check my gas, futz about and then simply kick again and I’m off.

If you only have correct dynamic trim, when you slow down and stop your legs sink. Your next kick has to accomplish two things, it’s got to get your legs up again AND propel you forward. So a good portion of your kick and therefore your energy is wasted in just maintaining correct trim. Your only other option is to not stop kicking in order to keep your trim flat. Then you end up looking like my puppy out for a walk, zipping back and forth and expending huge amounts of energy and, as a side effect, consuming huge amounts of gas.

Thoughts?

Roak

[tombiowami]

How do they go about getting your correct weighting in a DIR F class?

Tommy

[detroit diver]

Tommy,

Not too much different than in the classes you've already taken, but with some critical changes.

500 psi in the tank. Bleed your wings (BC). Keep removing weight to the point of just sinking. For every pound you take off, that's the less bouyancy in your wings you need to counteract it. It makes a HUGE difference when holding a position or doing skills in the 20 ft and above level. It made all the difference for me. I took off at least 9 lbs of weight.

But the balance issue is just as important. Center of gravity. Without it, the weighting is irrelevent.

I was in the class with Mike and Bill this past weekend. I've been lurking at the posts because they explained the class more eloquently than I could have. It made me realize how absurd the c-card agencies are and the type of diver that they are producing. As Mike said, it's all for the money. This class cost me $275.00 + lodging for the weekend. It was the best cash I ever spent on diving. (actually, I took half of the class in March when I got sick, so it cost me $550!!).

Let me throw out a question for the audience:

Why, during a charter, are we told to get back into the boat with 500 psi in our tanks?

[detroit diver]

One more thing. Although I understand Mike reasoning behind it. this issue really doesn't belong in the Tek section. This class should be the standard for ALL divers.

[GP]

Originally posted by roakey
OK, this is right off the top of my head but I’ll throw it out for discussion anyway. Us DIR zealots :) talk about “gliding” with the rig. We usually point to the hydrodynamics of the rig as to the reason we can glide like we do. Not to downplay the rig, but I think a lot of it has to do with trim too. Having correct static trim allows you all the time in the world between kicks, unlike correct dynamic trim. I can kick, glide forward, look around, check on my buddy, come to a complete stop, check my gas, futz about and then simply kick again and I’m off.

If you only have correct dynamic trim, when you slow down and stop your legs sink. Your next kick has to accomplish two things, it’s got to get your legs up again AND propel you forward. So a good portion of your kick and therefore your energy is wasted in just maintaining correct trim. Your only other option is to not stop kicking in order to keep your trim flat. Then you end up looking like my puppy out for a walk, zipping back and forth and expending huge amounts of energy and, as a side effect, consuming huge amounts of gas.

Thoughts?

Roak
Excellent post Roak. Thanks, that's one of the best things about this board, getting helpful info. You're description exactly describes a problem I've had when diving. When I stop finning my legs sink and you are correct...it really is wasted energy. I'm going to mess with my tank positioning on my next dive to try and fix this.:)

[large_diver]

Kind of curious about a couple of points....

I just bought my BP 2 months ago (FredT) and set the harness up myself.

Curious about what guidance they gave regarding the following:

- Harness tightness
- Chest D ring positioning
- Backplate positioning (high high/low on your body)
- Tank positioning
- Other general comments about gear config. that may have surprised you or that seemed to be an issue with lots of folks

Thanks!

-Chris

[MikeFerrara]

Roakey,
Your explanation of the mechanics of buoyancy control is absolutely correct. Speaking for myself, I teach the PADI OW course and I lecture all of what you said and in more detail complete with diagrams and cave diving video. I'm not trying to promote cave diving but to see an example of good trim this is where you usually must look. I don't teach students to depend on what you call dynamic trim (I describe it to students sa flying in the water because you use the flow of water over control surfaces). BTW the NACD cave diving manual "The Art of Safe Cave Diving" has an excelent chapter on this. But then again I sell bp/wing almost exclusively. I also have training and experience way beyond recreational diving. Training standards are not perfect but they are not what prevents divers from learning this stuff. One big problem is the fact that many instructors can't dive therefore can't teach. I have no defense for this. PADI understands the mechanics of trim and buoyancy control (it's not complicated). It is equipment manufacturers who are running the show. A shop must sell alot of junk to keep the dealership that allows them to sell you an Apeks reg. Its all tied together. Combine that with the reason most learn to dive. Underwater tourism is not the same as diving. Underwater sight seeing is what most are interested in. Even after my detailed trim/finning technique/buoyancy control lecture and seeing it demonstrated in the water of the few who will consider purchasing equipment some will still complain about the lack of color selection in a wing. I'm telling you, you can lead a horse to water but you can't suck it up through his ...Oh well you get the idea. To put in perspective, what some of us see as a problem, the rest of the diving world does not.

[detroit diver]

Hi Chris,

Well, the harness will be tighter than you think! Actually, the top of the backplate should be at about the 2nd vertebrae. By cinching up the harness, you can achieve this height.

D-rings- Take each arm and extend it outright horizontal to the ground. Then move it across your body until you touch your other arm. The D ring should be placed just about there.

Tank positioning depends on your balance in the water. For my doubles, I try to get the bands as high as high as I can.

If you've got boots on your SPG, take 'em off. They cut mine off!! Funny thing is, I didn't know the boot could be taken off....

The other stuff you'll learn in class. All important, but not as visible as the above.

[roakey]

Originally posted by GP
I'm going to mess with my tank positioning on my next dive to try and fix this.:)
If you have an AL80 cylinder positioning it won't help very much, you need some significant amount of weight up near your shoulder blades to flatten you out. Steel cylinders help, SS backplates help, but in lieu of either, throw some weight in the form of a HEAVY ankle weight around your valve or grab another cam band and put a weight up near the shoulder of the cylinder.

Don’t be bashful, let’s say you dive with 20 lbs, try putting 10-15 lbs up near the cylinder's shoulder and see how it works out. In a pool, by the way. :) Try the penny exercise in the post I pointed folks to a couple notes back.

Note that even with 15 lbs of unditchable weight and an AL80, if you’re properly weighted and you need to drop your weight belt you’ll be a couple pounds negative worst case, something you can swim up. Most importantly your ascent will be controlled, not a missle.

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver,
Why would you let some jamoke on a charter boat dictate your gas management. But the answer is that they are prabably trying to force you into some kind of a gas management plan with a reserve.

[roakey]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
One big problem is the fact that many instructors can't dive therefore can't teach.
From your posts not only do I think you're one of the few OW instructors that "get it" but you also teach it.

Tell me, is it that difficult to turn out exceptional (compared to the existing average) students when you put them in the right gear?

[ok, it's a leading question :)]

Roak

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
detroit diver,
Why would you let some jamoke on a charter boat dictate your gas management. But the answer is that they are prabably trying to force you into some kind of a gas management plan with a reserve.

I don't let anyone dictate my gas. But I was trying to start a dialog on gas management. Most people doing 70-90 foot dives and surfacing with 500 psi in an AL80 don't realize that they don't have enough gas for themselves and a buddy in an emergency-without either bending or killing themselves.

[roakey]

It's so I can bob around on the surface breathing from my reg with waves crashing over me while divers in front of me fiddle around on the ladder. And so I can climb the ladder and exit the water with the reg still in my mouth.

I've never understood the "spit out the reg the moment your hands hit the ladder" mindset. More than once I've found myself walking around on deck to my station with the reg still in my mouth.

I usually figure it out when someone asks me a question. Like "Why are you still breathing off your reg?"

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

roakey,
If they are interested enough to get the right gear you are home free. Lots of them still just want to go on vacation though. Some have selective hearing and understanding. There are success stories. A student I certified only a couple of weeks ago baught a bp/wing set up in prep for a Cozumel trip. BTW not one of the places I reccomend for new divers. He has dived like a mad man with me and or some of our DM's and regular divers since. He was in the pool with us last night to check his harness adjustment and weighting with the suit he will wear in Cozumel (realizing that salt water will be a little different) The guy looks like a pro in the water after about 20 dives. A little less flutter and alittle more frog and we'll have something.

Leading to what? Come out with it.
Our school equipment is a cross between optimal and less that optimal. We have significantly changed the way we teach since we purchased much of it. We're working on replacing/adding it but we must pace the expendatures. All bc's are back inflation but we will eventually get bp's and use the others for renting to people off the street or sell them off. We of course use a long hose for the primary with the alt on a short hose around the neck. We're getting there.

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver,
Your right they don't have enough. But, if you have no idea what your consumption is, how would you know how much gas is required for both of you to ascend and do a safety stop? There is more to gas management than watching your gauge.

[roakey]

Originally posted by Rick L
Hi
Iv'e been reading lots of dir type discussions of late.
My question is: Is it still fun and enjoyable to dive?
It almost makes every part of diving sound like work?
Or is there difference in the type of dir diving you are doing(rec deep cave wreck?)Or do you keep the same mental attatude
no matter what you are doing in the water? Or is it that you get so used to doing all the prep stuff that it becomes 2nd nature to you?
I have MORE fun and MORE enjoyment diving now that I’m DIR than I’ve had since I was diving in Saipan in the mid 70s (with a backplate, surprise, surprise!)

Rick L, I don’t know if you ski or not, but let me use a skiing analogy. PADI teaches you how to snowplow. PADI TecRec teaches you how to snowplow on the black diamond runs (sorry, had to say it :)). Do folks enjoy snowplowing? Sure, lots of snowbunnies just learn to snowplow and that’s as far as they get. But some folks want to learn to ski better. Most probably don’t want to do the black diamond runs, they just want to ski a little better and easier and improve their enjoyment of the sport.

So they take a class. Now the class involves some work and some practice. They may not enjoy the work and practice as much as unstructured skiing, but after the work and practice they know how to Stem Christie or Parallel. They’re able to ski easier, with more confidence and less effort. They enjoy themselves more.

DIR is even easier than the analogy I gave above. PADI teaches you to snowplow. It also teaches you to sit back on your skis and hold the poles behind you, unfortunately. But the web is a wonderful place to learn to a certain extent. You can progress by leaps and bounds just by using the information on the web, you never need to take a DIRF class and you can still improve you diving immensely. But it takes a little work and a little practice, but next time you hit the water for unstructured diving you’ll see the difference. Even “just” the web can move you forward significantly if you dedicate some time and energy to actually practicing skills. This means dedicating a dive, or part of a dive to actually working on your form, just like practicing skiing. You’ll see the results in your diving immediately. Even just substituting the proper equipment like a backplate and wings and not changing anything else, your diving will be come easier.

We don’t configure DIR because we want to be different, we do it because it makes diving easier.

There’s nothing wrong at stopping at “web taught” DIR. It’s a step in the right direction and not everyone wants to ski the double diamonds. But there are rewards for those that continue in their training.

I was “web taught” DIR for about a year or two. My diving rose well above my peers and then I took Cave I from JJ and Ted Cole and got my ego hammered flat. It’s part of the learning process. I came out of Cave I even better than I was before, and still far below my instructors. I know what’s possible and will continue to work in that direction.

But when I jump off the boat into a kelp bed I’m not thinking trim, I’m not thinking configuration, I’m not thinking drag or what to do in an OOA situation, I’m looking at the pretty fishes. Because I’ve worked on trim, configuration, drag and OOA procedures when I was in more boring locations, the unstructured diving is automatic, easy and very, very fun.

This is why us DIR folks are so vocal. Uninformed folks think it’s only for technical divers. They think it’s a lot of work. Well it’s not and it’s easy unless you want to get into double diamonds (technical diving). And you think you’re having fun now? You don’t know what’s possible, trust me.

Roak

[trheeltek]

Ok, dialogue on gas management - Not sure I agree with this:


Originally posted by detroit diver


I don't let anyone dictate my gas. But I was trying to start a dialog on gas management. Most people doing 70-90 foot dives and surfacing with 500 psi in an AL80 don't realize that they don't have enough gas for themselves and a buddy in an emergency-without either bending or killing themselves.

Actually, I think they do have enough. They surfaced with 500 PSI from 90 ft. Ok, so they left the bottom with some larger quantity of gas. How much depends on ascent rate, safety stop, and SAC. But, I don't know that stuff, so let's just pretend they used no air on the way up, and left the bottom with 500 PSI.

Now, let's say their buddy had a bad day and ran out of air at the bottom. If they're both within the NDL and start air-sharing at 90 ft with 500 PSI, then immediately start their ascent, they should have no problem making the surface without bending themselves. They've got a little more than 13 cub. ft of gas left, or 6.5 each. Ascending at 60 ft/min, they're at 30ft in a minute. Even breathing pretty heavy, they've still got enough left to take a deep breath and CESA. From 30 ft in OW, a little scary but should be no big deal. In fact, they'd most likely have enough gas to make the surface or darn close.

The larger issue is, under normal conditions I'd bet you neither of the divers knows how much air they'd use on the way up, so cannot compute a turnaround pressure. My experience with fellow recreational divers is they sometimes know generally how much they need based on past dives, but at a new depth or with a new tank, they're lost. Fortunately, at less than 100 feet with no overhead, they can probably afford some stupidity. Any deeper, and it gets a little sticky. Overheads (virtual or otherwise) obviously change things completely.

[sheck33]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lost Yooper
[B]Thanks everyone.

Cincy Diver,

Roakey is right. I have the dive master cert. and it's worth about as much as the plastic it's written on. I knew that when I took it and knew it prior to taking this class. This class simply reinforced it. "Master" of what is what I'd like to know. I can assure you the instructors that I took that class with were saying exactly that regarding their own piece of plastic.

ElectricZombie,

The skills were pretty straight forward: kicks, air sharing, valve drills, mask removal (with eyes closed), etc. The trick was the trim and buoyancy control that GUE requires while doing those skills.

Ben,

It is critical for everyone to understand that the instructors did NOTHING to make anyone feel like crud. We took care of that ourselves. There was no humiliation on their part at all. We took care of that ourselves. There was absolutely NO abuse on the part of the instructors.
Yes, they worked exhaustively to help those who had a chance of getting better. In fact, I had individual attention several times trying to arch my friggen back so I could master proper trim and that back kick. I could have spent two weeks with Andrew working on that alone and may still never gotten it.

It was clear to me that the instructors wanted to be there, wanted to help, and wanted to produce better divers. There was absolutely NO feeling of economic pressure from any of them. It didn't feel like they were doing this for the money. There was an overwhelming feeling of mission regarding everything they were doing. This wasn't elitism, or attitude, or any of that BS we hear about on these boards. This was about basic skills that nobody in our class could do regardless of the number dives, types of certs, or type of diver.

LD,

There wasn't any humiliation or abuse on their part. They didn't have to.



Good luck to all who are going to take it. My advice is to go in prepared to fail, prepared to learn, and be prepared to ask yourselves if you have what it takes to practice until you get it. How much dedication do you have? If your an instructor or divemaster (or charter captain) be prepared to take a hard look at your morals because they will stare at you once you've finished.



AMEN, so true, the GUE instructors in my DIRF class were fabulous
And i was humbled too, jeez did i learn about my diving skills, i learned more in that DIRF class than ALL prior classes combined.
And i have a problem with the other agencies, when i help out with those classes i feel i am helping those students fool themselves.

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by large_diver
Kind of curious about a couple of points....

I just bought my BP 2 months ago (FredT) and set the harness up myself.

Curious about what guidance they gave regarding the following:

- Harness tightness
- Chest D ring positioning
- Backplate positioning (high high/low on your body)
- Tank positioning
- Other general comments about gear config. that may have surprised you or that seemed to be an issue with lots of folks

Thanks!

-Chris

Let's see:

I was overweighted, which I knew about but hadn't messed with. I didn't realize the enormous impact it had though.

My plate was too low and straps too loose.

Bolt snap on primary reg was too small (duh).

Switched to a break away o-ring for primary bolt snap attachment (duh).

Valve knobs need to be changed to the easier to use rubber ones (again, I knew this too but hadn't gotten to it).

My undergarmet is poorly made and needs to be replaced as it prohibits good flexibility.

My suit may be on the chopping block too.

Hmmm, I think that's about it. As I've said quite a bit over the years, I'm a net taught DIR guy. I know the theory about as well as one can know it. I bought most of my stuff site unseen and untried several years ago. I never had the opppotunity to have someone show me the how-to's of it all until last weekend. In fact, those were the first strict DIRer's that I ever met in person much less dove with!

I agree with one of Roakey's posts where he said that even net based learning of DIR increases your safety and enjoyment of diving. Having the hands-on did more in two days than I got in four or five years of net learning regarding skills. I think I have a stratedgy that will get my trim right. I'll have to try it this weekend.

Mike

PS. I'm glad this thread was useful for so many future DIRF students.

[neil]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
Neil,
Strangely enough, the failure rate of some of my high-level engineering and physics courses in college was very close to 50% -- yet the professors and the University were still highly praised.
- Warren

Warren,
I'm very surprised to know that. What it means, I haven't a clue. When 50% of MY college students start to fail, I'm quitting teaching. If you are going to set the standard high, as in DIR, you have to set the standard for instruction high as well. IMHO. Maybe someone will let me observe a DIRF class to assess teaching technique?
Neil

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by trheeltek
Ok, dialogue on gas management - Not sure I agree with this:

Actually, I think they do have enough. They surfaced with 500 PSI from 90 ft. Ok, so they left the bottom with some larger quantity of gas. How much depends on ascent rate, safety stop, and SAC. But, I don't know that stuff, so let's just pretend they used no air on the way up, and left the bottom with 500 PSI.

Now, let's say their buddy had a bad day and ran out of air at the bottom. If they're both within the NDL and start air-sharing at 90 ft with 500 PSI, then immediately start their ascent, they should have no problem making the surface without bending themselves. They've got a little more than 13 cub. ft of gas left, or 6.5 each. Ascending at 60 ft/min, they're at 30ft in a minute. Even breathing pretty heavy, they've still got enough left to take a deep breath and CESA. From 30 ft in OW, a little scary but should be no big deal. In fact, they'd most likely have enough gas to make the surface or darn close.

The larger issue is, under normal conditions I'd bet you neither of the divers knows how much air they'd use on the way up, so cannot compute a turnaround pressure. My experience with fellow recreational divers is they sometimes know generally how much they need based on past dives, but at a new depth or with a new tank, they're lost. Fortunately, at less than 100 feet with no overhead, they can probably afford some stupidity. Any deeper, and it gets a little sticky. Overheads (virtual or otherwise) obviously change things completely.

Sorry, not even close. We're talking a SAFE ascent here, not a "get bent and fix it on the surface" ascent. Shooting to 20 feet at 60fpm ain't gonna keep you clean.

Here's the math (and you need all of the SAC, ascent rate, and stop times for it):

2 divers emergency situation @ 1 cuft/min = 2 cuft/min
average ATA = 2
consumption: 4 cuft/min
1 minute to get your stuff together after an OOA.
1.5 minutes to get to 40 feet at 30 feet/ minute
1 min stop at 40 feet
1 min stop at 30 feet
1 min stop at 20 feet
1 min stop at 10 feet

Thats 6 1/2 min x 4 cuft/min = 26 cuft of gas.

Average AL80: 77.5 cuft gas, 2800 psi.

26 / 77.5 = .33 x 2800 psi = 924 psi required.

You're bent, dead, or lucky at 500 psi. I don't like either of these options. I like knowing I can get out of the water and have a sandwich.

[O-ring]

PADI TecRec teaches you how to snowplow on the black diamond runs (sorry, had to say it

I talked to a PADI instructor today that told me they are planning to teach 160' on air....any truth to that?

[Divesherpa]

:)

Nice to see you back Yooper.

Come on down and do some cave next. That's where it really gets fun.

Cheers and safe diving

[Spectre]

Originally posted by O-ring


I talked to a PADI instructor today that told me they are planning to teach 160' on air....any truth to that?

From http://www.padi.com/courses/tecrec/TecDeepDiver.asp


The DSAT Tec Deep Diver course will train you to conduct gas-switch extended no-decompression dives, decompression dives and accelerated decompression dives using air and enriched air to a depth of 50 metres/165 feet.

Although, in all fairness, TDI's extended range course talks of Air to a depth of 180.

IANTD's Normoxic Trimix is for "those who wish to dive in the zone between 130 fsw (39 msw) and 200 fsw (60 msw) but are not comfortable doing so on air"

[TwoBitTxn]

If DIRF isn't a carded class why do you consider it pass/fail. You enter the class with the intent of learning something. If you learn something you did what you set out to do. I don't see how you can fail this course, or pass it for that matter. If you "pass" it then you have shown you are ready and have the skills to go on to the next class. Thats great. So very few people are able to correct their defficiencies from years of bad habits developed thru poor training in a weekend. Are you suprised?

We are so quick to label someone a failure when they don't measure up when it should be a case of hey this is what you need to work on to bring your skills up to the level they need to be to take the next step.

TwoBit

[roakey]

Originally posted by TwoBitTxn
If DIRF isn't a carded class why do you consider it pass/fail.
I got the feeling they were talking about Tech I being pass/fail and that 50% of the folks who take Tech 1 fail.

Roak

[detroit diver]

Roakey,

That's absolutely correct. Those stats were from the Tech 1 class, not DIRF.

[Cave Diver]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
PS. I'm glad this thread was useful for so many future DIRF students.

Yooper

I personally found this thread exremely useful and intensely interesting. I also found DIR via the web and while I am certainly nowhere near DIR style diving, I am reading and absorbing as much as I can and slowly adapting my gear and attitude to this methodology as I am able.

I am very much a 'show me why' kinda guy. I don't do something because the crowd does it, I do it because it makes sense to me. And DIR makes a lot of sense. So much so that I have been dragging a few other divers along, kicking and screaming in my quest for knowledge.

The big turnoff that I had from *SOME* DIR guys initially was the "we dive this way because we are the best, so you should to." That's fine, and they may well BE the best, but that doesnt solve my need to know WHY something is a certain way.

It is very refreshing to see how some of you guys (and gals) that are more evolved than the rest of us take the time to explain the how, the why and to give us the cold hard fact that in some areas you just didnt measure up.

Many of you on here have earned a great deal of respect from me just based on knowledgeable answers, even tho I have never seen you dive. I suspect that quite a few of you have skills that are much better than mine and to read a report such as yours give me that much more pause to stop and reconsider how *good* a diver I really am. Everytime I dive with someone I mentally measure myself against them. Some have better skills than I. Most do not. But everything that I read from you guys goes towards making me a better diver and I for one thank you for that.

BTW... Been meaning to ask... What exactly *IS* a Yooper anyway, and how does it go about becoming lost?

And since I am on the subject of helpful information:

Roakey. I found your DECO Divers (http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3415/index1.html) website when I initially started my NetQuest for DIR. I thought it was a very cool site with a lot of good information and many of your posts on here reinforced that opinion. I was pleasantly surprised the first time I ran across a post made by you and realized you were the same person from the website.

Everyone else, I just want to say that even tho I only specifically mentioned these two guys, there are many more of you out there that have great contributions to this board and make me glad I found it.

Keep up the good work everyone.

Dive often, but dive safe.

John

[PA/NJdiver]

I have been diving in the PNW this week with divers from Fifth Dimension. One of the divers only has 56 dives and has better buoyancy and trim than most instructors I know that have 200 or more dives. It's not asking too much to have a high basic skill level.

Stacey

[JimC]

DD I agree with you, but your missing one major point



26 / 77.5 = .33 x 2800 psi = 924 psi required.

You're bent, dead, or lucky at 500 psi. I don't like either of these options. I like knowing I can get out of the water and have a sandwich.


924 is your turn psi.

500 is what you have left at the surface.

Turning at 500psi at 80fsw is suicide. Hitting the surface from an 80foot dive with only 500psi left is.. a bare minimum without much margin for error. Unfortunatly, most of the people I have encountered beleive that 500psi is when to turn the dive.

Nothing is a substitude for good gas managment, and the 500psi rule is a crappy substitude for incomplete teaching. I am almost positive its there because there is "math" involved in doing it right.

[JamesK]

Originally posted by detroit diver
Why, during a charter, are we told to get back into the boat with 500 psi in our tanks?

Now this could be totally off base. Most agaencies teach you to be nuetral with 500psi in your tank. At the end of the dive, if you come up with less than 500, you would in effect be positve, with no way to correct it. Being positive would make it impossible to do a "safety stop" at 15 feet. So, if weighted properly, the 500psi limit to be back on the boat could be to keep you slightly negative when you are on your safety stop. This would allow you to use you wings to be neutral at the stop.

Just a guess though.

[WYDT]

Originally posted by JamesK


Now this could be totally off base. Most agaencies teach you to be nuetral with 500psi in your tank. At the end of the dive, if you come up with less than 500, you would in effect be positve, with no way to correct it. Being positive would make it impossible to do a "safety stop" at 15 feet. So, if weighted properly, the 500psi limit to be back on the boat could be to keep you slightly negative when you are on your safety stop. This would allow you to use you wings to be neutral at the stop.

Just a guess though.

Actually James you should be neutral (at 15-20ft) with 0psi in your tank. This is in the even of a catestrophic loss of gas and you're sharing air.

The general rule for buoyancy:

Be able to ascend from depth with full tank(s) and 0 air in BC
Be able to maintain 15-20ft stop with minimum gas in tank and no air in bc.

Now obviously you aren't going to drain a tank to find out what the perfect buoyancy is for 0 air in the tank but if you can be neutral at 15ft with 500psi it's not going to be that different with 0psi. Actually it's going to equal ~1lb if we're talking about an AL80.

DSAO!

[JamesK]

Very good points!!!! Like I said, my post could have been totally off base. It simply seemed logical to me when i thought about it.

[Rick L]

Hehe I like that!!!
I think it was pizza to slow and french fry to go fast :-)
Gee I couldn't believe I could have more fun! Even after 15 years
I still love going(my wife is getting sick of me scuba diving all the time hehe) Ive done about 15 tanks in the last 10 days.
The freezer is full of lobster and flounder does it get any better?
This dir stuff does look very interesting im going to keep reading
thanks Roakey
Rick L

[roakey]

Originally posted by Cave Diver
Roakey. I found your DECO Divers (http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3415/index1.html) website when I initially started my NetQuest for DIR. I thought it was a very cool site with a lot of good information and many of your posts on here reinforced that opinion
That site is not mine, but done by Jeffrey who was one of my fellow students in Cave I. I only contributed my writeup of the class to it.

Roak

[trheeltek]

The current PADI/rec. standard is 60 ft/min ascent rate, and no stops are required except a safety stop on dives within the NDL. That's what their tables are based on, and they seem to work ok. Blowing off the safety stop isn't a great idea and shouldn't be standard practice, but the rest is straight from the book, and you shouldn't take a hit.

So, ok, let's revisit this - assume a 4 cub ft/min SAC for both divers, and they're using their standard RDP table (no stops except 15 ft). Ascending from 90 ft at 60 ft/sec, that's 1.5 minutes to the top, add a minute to get stuff together after OOA, that's 2.5 minutes. 2.5 x 4 = 10 cub. ft. They blow the safety stop, not a good idea, but statistically, so have lots of poor divers without getting bent.

As an intellectual exercise this is fun, but of course turning at 500 PSI at 90 ft is DUMB, so don't do it. I'm simply pointing out that following the current PADI OW training, you'd most likely be ok.

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by trheeltek
The current PADI/rec. standard is 60 ft/min ascent rate, and no stops are required except a safety stop on dives within the NDL. That's what their tables are based on, and they seem to work ok. Blowing off the safety stop isn't a great idea and shouldn't be standard practice, but the rest is straight from the book, and you shouldn't take a hit.

So, ok, let's revisit this - assume a 4 cub ft/min SAC for both divers, and they're using their standard RDP table (no stops except 15 ft). Ascending from 90 ft at 60 ft/sec, that's 1.5 minutes to the top, add a minute to get stuff together after OOA, that's 2.5 minutes. 2.5 x 4 = 10 cub. ft. They blow the safety stop, not a good idea, but statistically, so have lots of poor divers without getting bent.

As an intellectual exercise this is fun, but of course turning at 500 PSI at 90 ft is DUMB, so don't do it. I'm simply pointing out that following the current PADI OW training, you'd most likely be ok.

The current PADI standard is garbage. Just about every expert in the field agrees on a max 30 fpm ascent, and slower if possible.

Not only that, but the current thinking is graduated ascent, including deep stops. Going from the bottom to 15 feet is their way of saying: "okay, we'll bend you a little and fix it on the surface". Ever notice how tired some people are after getting back from a dive? They're bent. Not the crippling kind, but bent nonetheless.

DIR's way is to get you out of the water from an emergency OOA without negative consequences. That's why the extra safety margin for gas.

[sheck33]

Originally posted by detroit diver


The current PADI standard is garbage. Just about every expert in the field agrees on a max 30 fpm ascent, and slower if possible.

Not only that, but the current thinking is graduated ascent, including deep stops. Going from the bottom to 15 feet is their way of saying: "okay, we'll bend you a little and fix it on the surface". Ever notice how tired some people are after getting back from a dive? They're bent. Not the crippling kind, but bent nonetheless.

DIR's way is to get you out of the water from an emergency OOA without negative consequences. That's why the extra safety margin for gas.

Actually the US Navy tables worked like that, these tables ( i learned to dive with them in the 80's) bring you up quickly, get you bent and then treat you by having you do long stops.
One thing that divers need to realize is the fact that every single table to date is only a very crude model and has little or no connection to what really goes on inside the body.
The body is a lot more complicated than a few theoretical 'tissue' compartments. GUE's decoplanner might be more sophisticated than the navy tables but it is still only a crude approximation, if that, of a body. The body is still far to complicated of a system.
Hence all these extra safety margins ('fudge' factors) :)

[ElectricZombie]

60 FPM is crazy...PADI needs to correct that.

[MikeFerrara]

The 60 fpm ascent rate is'nt a PADI standard. It was an assumption used to calculate the tables. The current thinking is that slower is better. Deco models other than Halanian (gas absorbsion) are becomming more main stream. Models like VPM and RGBM are seeing wide use. Some are using softwares like GAP which is Builmen (not sure about the spelling) but uses gradiant factors to generate deep stops. The WKPP doesn't use any of them. They have developed their own rule of thumb method. Others have done the same thing and its nothing new. The stops given here, I think it was 1 min at 40, 30, 20, and 10. Sounds like a rule of thumb thing. Is this what you use for a minimum deco? If you are doing a dive that requires staged deco you should have bailouts in case you end the diver sooner than planned and need to get out of the water as soon as possible. Lets pick a profile and look at when we are terminating the dive then we can run the schedule and see what an excepted model calls for.

[JimC]

Worst case sitation following the 'rules' would be a dive to 130fsw for max NDL with the failure right as you start your accent.

So your would have 500psi + whatever you would guess you need to surface. Is the 500 enough to get your buddy up, safely?

[jbd]

I have read somewhere(I can't remember where) that initially the acsent rates were 30 FPM. However Navy divers complained that this was too slow and asked for 100 FPM. In the end 60 FPM was selected as a compromise. This was still working on the bend 'em deep cure shallow theory. I wish I could provide the source.

[trheeltek]

Originally posted by detroit diver


The current PADI standard is garbage. Just about every expert in the field agrees on a max 30 fpm ascent, and slower if possible.

Ever notice how tired some people are after getting back from a dive? They're bent. Not the crippling kind, but bent nonetheless.


I'm well aware of, and practice, the current thinking on ascents. Again, I'm not encouraging people to ascend at 60 ft/min. I'm simply pointing out that empirically, millions of successful dives have been safely done using the current PADI standard. In the example we're discussing, we can empirically expect a similar safe result, which makes it a fun problem to argue about. But, I wouldn't do it, and neither should anybody else.

Moving on though, you raise an interesting question, one I've always been curious about - when is a diver bent? I mean, we all surface still offgassing and do surface decompression. While we're not so saturated that we notice anything, I assume that the dissolved nitrogen nevertheless triggers some physiological response - we certainly have microbubbles floating around in there, so N has come out of solution. So, what's the line in the sand - are we officially bent only if the symptoms are noticeable (i.e. fatigue, skin bends, crippling neurological DCS)? Obviously if you come up with joint pain and take a chamber ride, you're bent, but what if you feel tired but can safely offgas at surface, are you bent in any important way? I learned an important lesson in deep air - every dive is a decompression dive. The corollary to that might be, you get bent on every dive. Just not enough to notice. Anyway, just something to pass the time with on long boat rides.

[detroit diver]

I guess your question goes to the crux of the issue. When are we bent? My feeling is that if you're fitigued, you're bent. Even without pain symptoms. And seeing as though we don't know the long term consequences of "fatigue bends" or similar, I don't want to experience them. That's why I follow so closely the GUE standards that this thread was originally about. It's not about just equipment, it's a mind-set. Get bent and fix it-that does'nt cut it with me. My theory (FWIW) is-if a big bubble can double you over, kill you, or cripple you for life, the little bubble can't be anything positive.

I know when I do the one minute stops every 10 feet instead of the 3 min@15 feet, I feel better-especially after the longer dives.

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by TwoBitTxn
If DIRF isn't a carded class why do you consider it pass/fail. You enter the class with the intent of learning something. If you learn something you did what you set out to do. I don't see how you can fail this course, or pass it for that matter. If you "pass" it then you have shown you are ready and have the skills to go on to the next class. Thats great. So very few people are able to correct their defficiencies from years of bad habits developed thru poor training in a weekend. Are you suprised?

We are so quick to label someone a failure when they don't measure up when it should be a case of hey this is what you need to work on to bring your skills up to the level they need to be to take the next step.

TwoBit

I hold myself to pretty high standards, so I tend to view things as failures and accomplishments for myself. You are right that there is no way that that three or four dives will correct years of bad habits. This is why DIRF is not a pass/fail class. I was harder on myself than I should have been, which isn't uncommon. Now that I've had a week to relax, I feel much better.


posted by Cave Diver.

I am very much a 'show me why' kinda guy. I don't do something because the crowd does it, I do it because it makes sense to me. And DIR makes a lot of sense. So much so that I have been dragging a few other divers along, kicking and screaming in my quest for knowledge.

The big turnoff that I had from *SOME* DIR guys initially was the "we dive this way because we are the best, so you should to." That's fine, and they may well BE the best, but that doesnt solve my need to know WHY something is a certain way.

It is very refreshing to see how some of you guys (and gals) that are more evolved than the rest of us take the time to explain the how, the why and to give us the cold hard fact that in some areas you just didnt measure up.

Many of you on here have earned a great deal of respect from me just based on knowledgeable answers, even tho I have never seen you dive. I suspect that quite a few of you have skills that are much better than mine and to read a report such as yours give me that much more pause to stop and reconsider how *good* a diver I really am. Everytime I dive with someone I mentally measure myself against them. Some have better skills than I. Most do not. But everything that I read from you guys goes towards making me a better diver and I for one thank you for that.

BTW... Been meaning to ask... What exactly *IS* a Yooper anyway, and how does it go about becoming lost?

All throughout the class, the instructors asked us to challenge them regarding the why’s of DIR. As I recall, not too many tried. I suspect most of the students had already been convinced through research and experience that DIR makes perfect sense. The questions that were asked were easily answered in a thoughtful and understandable way. I never heard an instructor say “because we say so, that’s why”, which we hear so much of on the net. Every last detail of DIR is well thought out and has a clear-cut reason behind it. Seeing it in action, or experiencing it yourself is the easiest way to see the advantages. I found it to be particularly impressive just to watch the instructors use DIR in it’s most efficient form.

What’s a Yooper? I grew up in the Upper Peninsula (or the UP) of Michigan. Residents of the UP are referred to as Yoopers. Now, the Mackinaw Bridge connects the UP to the Lower Peninsula. Yoopers call those who live under the bridge trolls. As for my being “Lost”, well, in my case, “lost” may refer to a range of different meanings. It may be taken quite literally from time to time ;), or more metaphorically (depending on my mental state :rolleyes: ). For the time being, I’m living in the LP, which would technically make me a troll, but I won’t succumb to such humility. I’m a Yooper at heart who just happens to be lost. :D.

Mike

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver,
What do you consider a longer dive? I don't think that for a reasonable series of "average" recreational dives that include a 3 min stop at 15 feet and a slow ascent that you should feel bad. As decompression stress increases so does the importance of efficient deco. The first step as I see it is to minimize the stress by useing the right gasses and diving sensible profiles. One of the criteria we have placed on "recreational diving" is that a direct ascent to the surface is possible. If you consider the 1 min at 40, 30, 20, 10 as manditory then you have a vertual overhead and should be planning gas based on the rule of thirds.

[Blargh]

Originally posted by detroit diver
I guess your question goes to the crux of the issue. When are we bent?


Whenever one feels like been beaten with a big stick. Or even a medium-ish stick.



My feeling is that if you're fitigued, you're bent. Even without pain symptoms. And seeing as though we don't know the long term consequences of "fatigue bends" or similar, I don't want to experience them.


No, but creeping osteonecrosis is always a possibility... :/


That's why I follow so closely the GUE standards that this thread was originally about. It's not about just equipment, it's a mind-set. Get bent and fix it-that does'nt cut it with me. My theory (FWIW) is-if a big bubble can double you over, kill you, or cripple you for life, the little bubble can't be anything positive.

I know when I do the one minute stops every 10 feet instead of the 3 min@15 feet, I feel better-especially after the longer dives.

[Tavi]

from your report:
" but we did get to compare packages… drysuits and undergarments, that is. By starting with the undergarments, we were able to determine the range of motion ours would allow for valve drills. Andrew went around the group and pointed out the pros and cons of the mfg's and even between models from the same mfg. "

So which Drysuits and undies are preffered??

To all,

With your harnesses adjusted tighter, are you able to easily get in and out of your harness???

[detroit diver]

Tavi,

The drysuit underwear that was the most flexible was made by Ocean ? (can't remember the last name!). It had a very flexible fabric on the outside-stretched in every direction. I was very impressed with it.

As for drysuits, he didn't like a lot of them. Most problems were with a seam that went up the arm inseam. It doesn't allow for full arm extension. Also, the torso recoil system (like in my Bare) sounds good on paper, but once you've got all of your stuff on, it doesn't move at all.

Maybe one of the other participants can remember specific drysuit suggestions.

With the harness tightened, it does make it a little more difficult to don and doff, but the diveability is so far enhanced that you don't care! My whole rig was shifting around before my adjustment and now it actually feels good.

[Tavi]

Originally posted by detroit diver
Tavi........

........With the harness tightened, it does make it a little more difficult to don and doff, but the diveability is so far enhanced that you don't care! My whole rig was shifting around before my adjustment and now it actually feels good.

I had it to where it felt great diving, But I had a hell of a time getting in and out of it (mostly out). I figured it couldn't be right (your supposed to be able to doff and don right?) I loosened it back up.
I liked it better tight.

Thanks,

[detroit diver]

Ah ha! I just remembered the name of that drysuit underwear-

it's Ocean Concepts.

Takes me a while......

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by detroit diver
Ah ha! I just remembered the name of that drysuit underwear-

it's Ocean Concepts.

Takes me a while......
Well actually it is Diving Concepts but we'll accept your answer for partial credit since you worked so hard at trying to remember it.;)

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Tavi
To all

With your harnesses adjusted tighter, are you able to easily get in and out of your harness???
Yes... very easy... in or out of the water... but it took time to get to that point so don't give up and loosen things back up......


........



........


Oh.... I see that you already did.

[Tavi]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Yes... very easy... in or out of the water... but it took time to get to that point so don't give up and loosen things back up......


........



........


Oh.... I see that you already did.


I'm tightening things back up!!

Welcome back Uncle Pug

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Well actually it is Diving Concepts but we'll accept your answer for partial credit since you worked so hard at trying to remember it.;)

Yeh, that's the ticket. Yeh.

Thanks.

[Uncle Pug]

But since the Diving Concepts undies are soooooo expensive...
I am completely happy (and flexible) with my custom sewn polatec undies...
Especially at $155 for the 300 gram.

I can't remember the URL but Tom (wreckwriter) knows it.

[cybordolphin]

So.... first off.... as a new diver... would it be wise to wait, or search out DIRF classes in my area now?


And...
Lost Yooper... I am glad you have changed your mind about possibly no longer diving. I actually have learned a great deal from you and others.... Uncle Pug, etc.. It would be a big loss to many new divers to lose input from you. Even if what has been taught needs to be reevaluated..... from time to time.... you have lead many in the right direction with your efforts, trial and errors, etc.. Even now.... in your reflection of what you have seen.... you are continuing to teach others. Do you realize that?

I believe, that diving HAS come a long way. Albeit slowly... things have changed, and progressed. And I think the future of diving will continue to improve from experiences like what you have had.
It is the, learning and knowledge for instance, what you have brought to this board that will in fact make these changes come about. If you stop for a minute... it is actually really exciting to think of the future of diving.

These things that you have experienced/seen.... one day will be commonplace in diving. I believe this.

My instructor was very open to my using a DIR setup.... even though I stood out like a black sheep during my OW cert. I thought that was admirable of my instructor, to allow me to use my DIR rig, even though he had little knowledge of how it worked.
He did take time to research in a hurry for me, so that he understood the basic idea/concepts to the rig. At first I actually thought he might be setting me up for failure..... so that I would never, ever think of using my setup ever again.

I could not believe the lack of knowledge from several OTHER dive instructors, and remember actually having to argue with one instructor regarding my bungied backup. He insisted that I was an idiot, and that in all of his diving he had NEVER seen such a setup. I just laughed and and tried to stay focused and not let his insulting comments accelerate my nervousness on my very first dive. But MY dive instructor..... was open to learning about what he knew little about. They are out there. They are beginning to learn. It IS happening.

I believe I was a natural at diving.... but I also believe that a lot of my successes had to do with things I have learned from you and others like yourself. In a way I was prepared even before I went in the water on my first dive.... just from what I had read and learned from places like this forum. It put me far ahead of my other classmates.

I am not much of a writer..... but just wanted to say thanks in a round about way.

I like everyone else... want to be the best diver I can be. Maybe before I pick up bad habits... I should be searching out those that can really help me in my diving skills, and prepare me for what you saw/experienced first hand.

How can I find more of the caliber of divers, and classes like those you had the opportunity to participate with/in?

I am in S. Calif. Home of the Channel Islands. :)

Thanks again LY. Glad you are back.... had not seen you on for a while.

[tombiowami]

I just took DIR F, have 60 dives, and would recommend the class at any time in your dive career. Some guidelines I have seen suggest 35+ dives but that is not held in all cases.

One way to meet other like minded divers is to get the DIR F class going in your area. Contact Andrew or Mike and they can fill you in on the details. I had inquired a lot around here but not really run into anyone, but once we got the class going I met quite a few.

Is there a Halcyon or tech dive shop in the area that would sponsor the class?

That is really great on your instructor. I am impressed. You have started to see how crazy some "leaders" in the dive industry are.

I just saw that you are in Southern Cal, that is where Mike Kane lives you may want to just shoot him an email with your questions.

mhkane@prodigy.net

Tommy

[cybordolphin]

Who is Mike Kane.....?

At the risk of embarrassing myself for not knowing...

Thanks!

[Cave Diver]

I signed up for a DIRF class in Houston August 16-18. I just got my DIRF book in as well, and have almost finished reading it. I will post my comments on the book and class as soon as I am finished for anyone that is interested in reading.

BTW, thanks to Maddiver for letting me know about the class and following up with me about it. I am looking forward to the experience.

[detroit diver]

Cybordolphin,

First of all, congrats on your OW cert. Get a few dives under your belt and take a DIRF class. It will be the best time/money you have ever spent.

Mike Kane is one of the GUE instructors. He lives in the L.A. area.

Tombiowami,

re: no of dives to take the class. In our class a couple of weeks ago, we had a diver with just 12 dives logged. It was really the right time to take the class, and Andrew was happy that he was there. One thing it does for you is to avoid spending hard earned money on B.S. c-cards. It also shows you what to strive for. (oh yeah, I forgot-you took the class!!!).

[Lost Yooper]

Thanks for the kind words, Cyberdolphin. I think the sooner you can jump into a DIRF class, the sooner you'll start heading in the right direction. Don't fall into the card collection schemes that so many divers get into -- that's an utter waste of time and money. Stay away from the agencies that place profit over skill proficiency -- about 99% of them.

I may be wrong, but I thought Mike Kane was organizing a free DIR demo class in California somewhere. I thought I read something to that effect on Quest last week. E-mail Mike and see what's up in your neck of the woods.

You may not know it yet, but you are in a perfect position to become a really great diver. You're starting out on a good step that most of us didn't (and most won't). The bad habits you currently have are freshly planted and can be easily discarded. You're very lucky.

Take care,

Mike

[tombiowami]

DD, I think we had a class right after yours and he brought up the 12 dive diver as an example. They discussed a good bit about their move to incorporate DIR F into standard OW courses (not sure what agency they teach out of now) and eventually into a GUE OW course.

I have researched the class quite a bit and read numerous reviews. It does not sound like there is really much difference between divers with 100s of dives and ones with just a few.

That was certainly representative of our class.

Tommy

[detroit diver]

Tommy,

They're actually beta testing a GUE open water course. When they get the course done, you'll be able to take it and get certified the right way. For instance, they stress the bouyancy issue and don't allow kneeling on the bottom to do skills.

My only concern is for C-card acceptance when travelling.

[Uncle Pug]

detroit diver once bubbled...
My only concern is for C-card acceptance when travelling.
...that won't be a problem...

"GUE is internationally recognized as the premiere institution for dive training, research, and explortation."

...or so says the card... and offers a 1*800 number and web URL for more information.

Of course the card that really counts isn't a card at all...
$$$ or £££ or ¥¥¥ or whatever works in your part of the world...

[detroit diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

...that won't be a problem...

"GUE is internationally recognized as the premiere institution for dive training, research, and explortation."

...or so says the card... and offers a 1*800 number and web URL for more information.

Of course the card that really counts isn't a card at all...
$$$ or £££ or ¥¥¥ or whatever works in your part of the world...

I get weird enough looks as it is with a hose wrapped around my head and one bungeed to my neck. Imagine trying to talk someone into accepting a c-card from GUE looking like that!

I guess what I'm saying is that it would be really unfortunate to spend a lot of money and time travelling and not be able to dive. 800 numbers are not good from a lot of places. Especially when they don't speak much English!

[Uncle Pug]

detroit diver once bubbled...
I get weird enough looks as it is with a hose wrapped around my head and one bungeed to my neck.
Jack... you just assumed that the looks were directed at the equipment configuration....


Anyway... I suppose I'll have to card you when you come out here in a couple of weeks.... just to make sure you know how to dive....

[detroit diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Jack... you just assumed that the looks were directed at the equipment configuration....


You've got a point there!!



Anyway... I suppose I'll have to card you when you come out here in a couple of weeks.... just to make sure you know how to dive....

If I show you my PADI card, you might not let me on the boat!! I'll wear my GUE shirt-will that work?

[Uncle Pug]

... I show you arriving the 15th... we can do as little or as much as you want... as long as you have the T-shirt.

[detroit diver]

I land around 11am or so. I don't know how long it is from the airport to you, but I'd love to dive that day if possible. If not, the next morning will be great.

I'll bring more than one shirt....

[Uncle Pug]

...I'd love to dive that day if possible.

Hmmmm.... better check out this thread first:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12691

[detroit diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...


Hmmmm.... better check out this thread first:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12691

Yeh, I saw that. Okay, I decided to walk there w/ my doubles. I'll call if I'm going to be late. Then again, I don't know how long my cell phone will work without a charge....

[psionicdfw]

I am new to this board so excuse my criticisms or dismiss them entirely...

Reading this thread makes my head hurt. Diving is supposed to be fun. I understand most of the people that post to this site are tech divers, and thus must be highly competent to dive safely during wreck penetrations and caves, hovever there seems to be a distinct haughty "I am more reverent than thee" 'tude concerning the most excrutiating minutae in much of this site. This thread is the worst I have yet seen.

I dive for work. We survey benthic habitats for the government. I am no "expert" diver, but I have strived to improve my skills with each dive. I take the risks associated with diving seriously, and I too worry about the people I have seen go through OW class and pass. They are likely to dive once a year, and barely remember any of the skills from year to year.

No one on this board is "better" than any of these people. Tech divers just have the desire and wherewithall to jump into diving more seriously. If an adult wants to do something stupid and die as a result, that is their choice. Being a "Gladys Cravitz" will not make your average vacation diver take safety more seriously.

I have toyed with taking some tech classes. After reading some of the threads on this board I am not sure I want to. If the level of lame criticisms, backbitting, and preachyness here is any indication of the amount of enjoyment I am likely to get out of it, I will gladly remain in my >130' world.

Peace,

Pete

[detroit diver]

Pete,

First of all welcome to the board. You've found one of the best boards on diving, regardless of what you think of this thread.

But I couldn't disagree with you more. Most of the people on this board are not technical divers. I don't have stats on that, but that's the feeling that I get. With that in mind, I think that most people on this board strive to make themselves a better diver in whatever capacity that they seek. And yes, it's definately supposed to be fun.

Unfortunately, some of the stuff being taught in open water is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY. That might be due to the instuctor, or maybe due to the agencies need for volume sales, but that's another thread.

That said, there are some of us that believe that there is truly a better way to dive. Some may be more vocal and "in your face" than others, but the bottom line is that we are on the same page. You can characterize that as "more reverent than thee", but I look at it as our ability to show others that they can be safer divers. A lot of the vocal shots are from people that either don't want us bringing up our way of diving, just want to argue, or don't want to improve themselves-just because that's the way someone taught them.

Yes, there are "better" divers than others on this board. That's where the flow of information comes from-the experienced can pass it down to those that wish to learn. Those that don't can just shut it off. I would hope that by learning something from here that we can head off the "adult wants to do something stupid and die as a result, that is their choice" type of individual. Technically you're correct, but let's at least get the information to them.

I don't know what/who Glady's Cravitz is, but I do honestly think that people will take notice if a point is driven home often. And yes, on their next dive in the Caribbean, local pond, or outback lake (are there any outback lakes??<G>)-maybe they'll do something more safely after reading the banter on these boards. Maybe not, but for me it's worth the effort. I know that I've learned a ton from the more experienced, and as I become more seasoned, I hope to pass this knowledge on-even to people that I'll never meet in person.

Take your tech classes, but keep an open mind to what others have to offer. You can disagree with them, but give it a look. You might just find a better way to dive, have fun, and be safe.

Dive safe,

Jack

PS Hey, I didn't even mention GUE or DIR once!!:D



psionicdfw once bubbled...
I am new to this board so excuse my criticisms or dismiss them entirely...

Reading this thread makes my head hurt. Diving is supposed to be fun. I understand most of the people that post to this site are tech divers, and thus must be highly competent to dive safely during wreck penetrations and caves, hovever there seems to be a distinct haughty "I am more reverent than thee" 'tude concerning the most excrutiating minutae in much of this site. This thread is the worst I have yet seen.

I dive for work. We survey benthic habitats for the government. I am no "expert" diver, but I have strived to improve my skills with each dive. I take the risks associated with diving seriously, and I too worry about the people I have seen go through OW class and pass. They are likely to dive once a year, and barely remember any of the skills from year to year.

No one on this board is "better" than any of these people. Tech divers just have the desire and wherewithall to jump into diving more seriously. If an adult wants to do something stupid and die as a result, that is their choice. Being a "Gladys Cravitz" will not make your average vacation diver take safety more seriously.

I have toyed with taking some tech classes. After reading some of the threads on this board I am not sure I want to. If the level of lame criticisms, backbitting, and preachyness here is any indication of the amount of enjoyment I am likely to get out of it, I will gladly remain in my >130' world.

Peace,

Pete :D

[psionicdfw]

I appreciate your welcome and your patience to my comment which was essentially a flame. I agree that there are people on here who are highly knowlegable and skilled divers. That is what brought me to the site, and was not my intention to refute that. Nor was it my contention that PADI, NAUI, et al are teaching perfect curriculum. In fact, I agree that the classes are dumbed down - both in skills and knowledge in a concession to commerce. The PADI Scuba Diver (I think that's the right class) designation is really scary in its "get em in and get em out" brevity. I also hear tables may be taken out of the classroom and only computers used - yikes.

Although I would like to hear what is being currently ommitted that, "is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." To me that is unneccesary hyperbole on your part.

I can't say I know an enormous amount about GUE and DIR, but from what I have seen, it is very impressive. If I wasn't saving up for a trip to Australia in November I would take the class being held in Austin next weekend.

My point (and yes, I am finally getting to it:) is that what should be a fun site has had any mote of joy sucked out of it by one-upmanship, and a "no one could possibly take safety more seriously than me" attitude. Read the first post in this thread. Take a step back and tell me it doesnt sound slightly pathetic in its "well I guess I will have to give up diving forever" hand wringing.

GUE teaches very challenging classes - as diving should be taught. But who are they teaching? Is it Mom and Pop from Peoria who are going to dive 50 feet or shallower on their trips to the Bahamas once a year? No, it's tech and cave divers primarily. Most people could not pass their stringent fitness standards alone (including many of the tech divers I have met - can you say "lay off the doughnuts?" hehe)

To sum - we have more fun diving for work than it would seem many of the people who post on here have when they dive recreationally. I just don't get spending all that time and money on something and then making it a competition as to who is the most hardcore...it's adolescent in my mind.

For instance the section of this thread about the fin-pivoting with the lame ruse "the question was a trick"...their point was lame, seemed motivated by sheer "see I am smarter than you" childishness, and did not contribute to the thread.

It really was not my intention to attack all these people, and I have now managed to alienate several members. I just really enjoy my diving, both recreationally and occupationally and it makes me a bit discouraged to see people make it into a competition rather than a free and open exchange of information. But maybe that's just human nature.

just my 2 cents....

Pete

and fyi - Gladys Cravitz was the nosy neighbor on "Bewitched". Think: "Abner!"

[Uncle Pug]

psionicdfw once bubbled...
Read the first post in this thread. Take a step back and tell me it doesnt sound slightly pathetic in its "well I guess I will have to give up diving forever" hand wringing.
... you're new here and I doubt that you have done any research on Lost Yooper as a poster so your missing the real point is... well... understandable.

LY for a long time was a very vocal proponent of DIR and had adopted as much of it as possible in his own technical diving.

He was considered by many on this board to be an excellent spokesperson for DIR as well as source of definitive DIR information.

Not only that... LY is a great guy and had a very nice way of putting things without any of the *I'm better than you* stuff so many are offended by.

Even though he had been in contact with the principles of DIR getting his questions answered he had no formal DIR training.

For LY taking the DIRf was therefore a step backward to do the fundamentals... and it became a very humbling experience for him when he did not breeze through it. His post was an incredibly humble admission of that fact.

Perhaps with this little background you might want to go back and re-read the first post in this thread and make a re-assessment.

LY had my respect before... even more so now... and I am sorry that he is not able to post to the board as much as he used too. He is a very valuable resource.

[sheck33]

psionicdfw once bubbled...

Although I would like to hear what is being currently ommitted that, "is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." To me that is unneccesary hyperbole on your part.

GUE teaches very challenging classes - as diving should be taught. But who are they teaching? Is it Mom and Pop from Peoria who are going to dive 50 feet or shallower on their trips to the Bahamas once a year? No, it's tech and cave divers primarily. Most people could not pass their stringent fitness standards alone (including many of the tech divers I have met - can you say "lay off the doughnuts?" hehe)

Pete

and fyi - Gladys Cravitz was the nosy neighbor on "Bewitched". Think: "Abner!"

welcome to the board. No i for one didnt feel attacked, you can think what you want. What is currently being ommitted that is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY are bouyancy skills, buddy awareness, air management and personal fitness. As for mom & pop that dive to 50 feet once a year, those divers are scary, they lack proficiency and confidence to be safe divers. GUE has stringent rules for diver fitness for good reasons, these rules should be more universally applied. Certifying that smoke so much they are panting by the time they have walked to the waters edge is ridiculous, i see it happen all the time. Certifying 10 year olds that can just barely carry their own equipment is insane, they cant help themselves let alone anyone else.

so, have fun diving :D :D

[ElectricZombie]

Well said Sheck.

[leadweight]

Psionicdfw,

You understand the attitude of this board completely. It is the typical internet thing where a few people with similar opinions take over a forum or newsgroup. In this case it is a bunch who may be DIR technical divers. The most DIR thing about them is that they have GI3's holyer than thou attitude. Let the flames roar.

Leadweight, from Texas (the third coast).

[jonnythan]

leadweight once bubbled...
Psionicdfw,

You understand the attitude of this board completely. It is the typical internet thing where a few people with similar opinions take over a forum or newsgroup. In this case it is a bunch who may be DIR technical divers. The most DIR thing about them is that they have GI3's holyer than thou attitude. Let the flames roar.

Leadweight, from Texas (the third coast).

Dude, why are you so angry? There are a ton of very active people on this board who aren't DIR, myself included.

What's your problem, eh? Calm down.

Don't you have anything better to do than to post messages insulting the DIR guys here all day? Post something useful already.

Geez.

:baby: :banging:

[O-ring]

You understand the attitude of this board completely. It is the typical internet thing where a few people with similar opinions take over a forum or newsgroup. In this case it is a bunch who may be DIR technical divers. The most DIR thing about them is that they have GI3's holyer than thou attitude. Let the flames roar.
Not everybody has an attitude and I think the board is quite well balanced between DIR and non-DIR people. Besides, whatever argument you are having, we already had it a few times already. Go dive your Transpac and stop trolling..

:)

[psionicdfw]

sheck33 once bubbled...


welcome to the board. No i for one didnt feel attacked, you can think what you want. What is currently being ommitted that is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY are bouyancy skills, buddy awareness, air management and personal fitness. As for mom & pop that dive to 50 feet once a year, those divers are scary, they lack proficiency and confidence to be safe divers. GUE has stringent rules for diver fitness for good reasons, these rules should be more universally applied. Certifying that smoke so much they are panting by the time they have walked to the waters edge is ridiculous, i see it happen all the time. Certifying 10 year olds that can just barely carry their own equipment is insane, they cant help themselves let alone anyone else.

so, have fun diving :D :D

Sheck -

Actually, I addressed this question to Detroit Diver, since he was the one that made the statement concerning training agencies. However, since you commented I will respond.

As someone earlier in the thread mentioned - it's all about epidemiology. If PADI, NAUI, et al were teaching dangerous, and, or seriously deficient classes there would be much higher rates of diver accidents, but the numbers just aren't there. Sorry! Thus the statement that current popular diving instruction "is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." is not only exaggeration, but is also incorrect as the facts do not bear this assertion out. DAN estimates the rate of diving accident as 1 in every 25,000-100,000 dives. Hardly rates indicative of training that is grossly negligent.

People on this board appear to be very emotional on these issues, and seem to be speaking from a place of emotion rather than one fully governed by logic. Yes, safety is much more important than debating over buying from Leisure Pro vs. LDS, or what color mask glass to buy. ANY training can be made more rigorous. Does this mean in every case it should be? Of course not. Driving a car is an inherently dangerous activity, and we would all surely benefit from increased instruction. Society has made a decision about what the proper level of training is. It’s cost vs. benefit. There will always be compromises between safety and expense - essentially "what is a life worth?" It's not a pleasant discussion, but it is one that has been held in many arenas; from EPA cleanup levels, to Detroit with car safety devices.

To bring this back to scuba - do I think that the popular agencies are teaching classes "lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." No - show me the bodies. You can't because they aren't there.

And this is what brings me back to my original comments about the attitudes that are pervasive on this board. The herding instincts and absolutist attitudes are sheer childishness. Very few things are purely good and very few are without any redeeming qualities. For MOST people PADI teaches an adequate class. If someone is a chain smoker and wants to dive that is their poor choice to make. I do agree with the age comments however. I think pre-teens lack the maturity necessary to handle crisis situations. I took my first dive when I was 12, and in retrospect I don't think it was wise.

In closing - think for yourself people. Just because a bunch of people on here love Apeks, doesn't mean it's the end all be all reg; just because GUE provides excellent advanced training doesn't mean it is for everyone,

Think with your brain, not your heart.

Peace,

Pete

[psionicdfw]

leadweight once bubbled...
Psionicdfw,

You understand the attitude of this board completely. It is the typical internet thing where a few people with similar opinions take over a forum or newsgroup. In this case it is a bunch who may be DIR technical divers. The most DIR thing about them is that they have GI3's holyer than thou attitude. Let the flames roar.

Leadweight, from Texas (the third coast).

Thanks for your comment, and I am sorry you were dragged into this. I feel I need to apologize to all of the people that post here. It certainly was not my intention to pick or start a fight. It was more so my inability to express myself with more tact and eloquence.

I just was very bothered by some of the attitudes indicative of an adversarial atmosphere rather than one of beneficence - and I certainly did nothing to help that. So if I upset or offended any of you please accept my apology.

I just hope that we can all at times take a step back and appreciate what an incredible sport we are involved in, and the number of high-quality people it attracts.

That’s all…..

Pete

[ElectricZombie]

I agree that OW classes taught by major organizations are for the most part not "seriously deficient"...but, they are deficient to a degree. They give you the very basic skills in diving, basically just enough not to kill yourself. I do not think this is enough. If you follow the written list of skills, etc given by each agency, I don't think any of them are appropriate. They are too dumbed down, and it then becomes the instructors job to correct this by adding additional skills and raising the bar. The Instructor is to exceed standards always, particularly if the standards are lacking anyway.

When I see people come out of OW and have no clue about bouyancy, something is wrong. When I see the instructor who is supposidly teaching bouyancy, yet is just as bad as his students, something is wrong. (Saw this today actually) Just because divers manage to get from point A to point B in a somewhat safe manner does not make them good divers. Somewhere along the line, the job is not getting done. Either standards need to be higher, or Instructors need to get better. Probably a combination of both.

As far as your DIR comments go, I will say this. Up until a few months ago, I did not even know what DIR was. I dove a ScubaPro X-Tech (Like a Zeagle or Dive Rite) and was perfectly happy. After finding out about DIR here, I decided to at least give it a shot to see if I liked it. I ended up really liking the DIR system, and will be using that from now on. It's logical and practical. So, was I being an unsafe diver all that time I used by ScubaPro BC? Of coarse not. The equiptment changed, not me or my skills or mindset. Some of the DIR people are a bit headstrong but, most of them are pretty cool. I think they feel this way because the system worked so well for them that they want to turn others on to it. Personally, someone being DIR or not really does not matter that much to me. I dive with non DIR people all the time. You dive your way, I'll dive mine. DIR works for me, maybe not so well for you. That's fine. No pressure either way.

[tombiowami]

I have only been diving a year, but have enought experience to answer your question about what is lacking in the basic OW classes by the current orgs.

A basic failure to force students to learn and execute skills hovering in good/perfect buoyancy/trim.

I learned the skills on my knees, on a platform.

The focus of the DIR Fund class is really just getting people to learn how to hover with little motion.

And yes, LY's post was a bit tongue in cheek IMO.




Tommy

[sheck33]

psionicdfw once bubbled...


Sheck -

Actually, I addressed this question to Detroit Diver, since he was the one that made the statement concerning training agencies. However, since you commented I will respond.

As someone earlier in the thread mentioned - it's all about epidemiology. If PADI, NAUI, et al were teaching dangerous, and, or seriously deficient classes there would be much higher rates of diver accidents, but the numbers just aren't there. Sorry! Thus the statement that current popular diving instruction "is lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." is not only exaggeration, but is also incorrect as the facts do not bear this assertion out. DAN estimates the rate of diving accident as 1 in every 25,000-100,000 dives. Hardly rates indicative of training that is grossly negligent.

To bring this back to scuba - do I think that the popular agencies are teaching classes "lacking in the most basic of skills that people need to dive SAFELY." No - show me the bodies. You can't because they aren't there..........................

Pete


There is another factor to consider here too and that is the fact that from the VAST numbers of people that are run through the certifying assembly-line in most diveshops only the smallest fraction continue to dive after their certification. Is it know what percentage of those 25,000 to 100,000 dives are done by newly certified divers? certification dives, i assume, are not counted here?

lets also look at what exactly we consider an 'accident'
i dont think i have seen it defined on the board yet. Do we only cosider those cases were a diver or divers got physically hurt and paramedics were called? If a diver screws up majorly but manages to escape unharmed it is not an accident?

maybe we should also define near-accident, which, as easy as it seems, is not that straightforward. How about a diver that looses bouyancy control, runs out of air but just barely manages to switch to a ponybottle, buddy not in sight, filled with a mix he was lucky enough to breath at the depth he was at. This diver escaped unharmed. But just because he managed to not kill himself was he SAFE???? NO he wasnt, far from it. This is a real life example. With the current levels of training i am utterly amazed, considering the numerous screwups like the one mentioned above i have seen, thatnot more divers get hurt.

statistics should be carefullyl interpreted. Just because there are no bodies doesnt prove safe diving is being praticed.

[psionicdfw]

sheck33 once bubbled...



There is another factor to consider here too and that is the fact that from the VAST numbers of people that are run through the certifying assembly-line in most diveshops only the smallest fraction continue to dive after their certification. Is it know what percentage of those 25,000 to 100,000 dives are done by newly certified divers? certification dives, i assume, are not counted here?

lets also look at what exactly we consider an 'accident'
i dont think i have seen it defined on the board yet. Do we only cosider those cases were a diver or divers got physically hurt and paramedics were called? If a diver screws up majorly but manages to escape unharmed it is not an accident?

maybe we should also define near-accident, which, as easy as it seems, is not that straightforward. How about a diver that looses bouyancy control, runs out of air but just barely manages to switch to a ponybottle, buddy not in sight, filled with a mix he was lucky enough to breath at the depth he was at. This diver escaped unharmed. But just because he managed to not kill himself was he SAFE???? NO he wasnt, far from it. This is a real life example. With the current levels of training i am utterly amazed, considering the numerous screwups like the one mentioned above i have seen, thatnot more divers get hurt.

statistics should be carefullyl interpreted. Just because there are no bodies doesnt prove safe diving is being praticed.


I agree - statistics should be carefully interpreted. When you acquire some statistics I would like to hear them. Currently all you have provided are assumptions and guesses.

I think you are probably correct in your thinking that what constitutes an accident is an incident in which medical intervention is required. As to who is doing this diving, I have no idea, but if the demographics from my local dive lake are any indication it's a broad spectrum of ages and experience.

I feel I made a well-reasoned, fair, and most importantly - impartial case. I have no agenda besides a discovery of facts. If your goal is to "win" a debate, it will be an empty victory as you are the only person competing. I have stated now multiple times that I AGREE WITH YOU that there are deficiencies in most training. Most classes are much too short, standards too low; and as tombiowami mentioned, performed on a platform.

In my OW class a woman was passed who had absolutely no buoyancy contral. Do I think she is a danger to herself? Possibly. It is dependant on the type of diving she does. I doubt she will ever encounter stage bottles as in your oddly tech-ish example (I thought we were discussing recreational diving). But she is also an adult. And like I have now also stated ad nauseum - Adults are allowed to do stupid things. Scuba is a self-regulated industry. Since you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should contact your Congressman and ask that he/she lobby for national certification standards. In the meantime, be glad that people are seeking training at all. It is not illegal to buy scuba equipment with no training, suit up, and jump in the ocean.

If you want to believe that the level of risk PADI grads expose themselves to when they dive is equivalent to having unprotected sex with IV drug using Haitian prostitutes while driving a Corvair (at any speed) then go for it. I have no desire to influence your opinion, however I am a scientist by training and occupation and until I at see at least some evidence of this enormous risk I see no reason to be up in arms, beating the bushes, and crying "What about the children!?!".

Ok, I am now officially sick of talking about this

[sheck33]

we have reached a level of agreement then :D

as for people being adults and being allowed to do stupid things, no problem, as long as it doesnt involve others and i dont have to pay there medicals bills. :out:

[ScubaDan]

I also agree with most here that OW classes lack good training in buoyancy control. As a new diver with only 2 other dives besides my OW dives I could use a lot of help in that area. At least I know that I need work in buoyancy control what about those that think they don’t now that there certified.

I would love to take a DIRF course to help with my buoyancy but I can not travel 1000 miles to attend one.

[roakey]

What's the distance from Kansas City to Santa Rosa, New Mexico?

There's a DIRF there November 15-17.

Roak

[Jarhead]

roakey once bubbled...
What's the distance from Kansas City to Santa Rosa, New Mexico?

There's a DIRF there November 15-17.

Roak

According to Mapquest - 776.87 miles :D

[roakey]

Less than a thousand, ScubaDan! Gonna come? Class starts at 2pm on Friday, so you could take off Thursday afternoon, spend the night on the road somewhere and complete the drive in on Friday. Class ends early Sunday afternoon.

Roak

[TCDiver1]

tombiowami once bubbled...
I have only been diving a year, but have enought experience to answer your question about what is lacking in the basic OW classes by the current orgs.

A basic failure to force students to learn and execute skills hovering in good/perfect buoyancy/trim.

I learned the skills on my knees, on a platform.

The focus of the DIR Fund class is really just getting people to learn how to hover with little motion.

Tommy
How about this?

Because a DIRF course may be a good thing for most any diver, doesn't mean that the programs provided by all other training agencies are a bad thing for all divers.

Simply put, existing agency training ain't broke for all divers. No, i repeat NO divers come out of our OW class without a very good grasp of buoyancy skills. They don't get their c-card without those minimum buoyancy skills. Same goes for other skills that are SUPPOSE to be taught and displayed by the student to show proficency in that skill.

For the most part it is not the agencies, who set the standards, who drop the ball. It's the individual instructor who doesn't demand that the student meet the skill level intented or the student who a year later has never practiced the skills they learned to become more proficent and off they head to Coz.

I've said this before and i agree with psionicdfw, OW divers should be droppin like flies if OW training is as screwed up as some of you say. I'm in full agreement that DIRF is great ADVANCED training for any diver to take if they so desire but do not believe it is needed to be safe diver in many senarios. No statistical model of anything is absolute yet we have to hang our hats on something. How many stop signs do you think are run each year without incident or report? For what they are, statistics don't lie. Diving accident occurence of 0.00004 or less is really pretty amazing considering all the things that can go wrong in all possible senarios.

Do i take this to mean everything is perfect with existing agencies training programs? Certainly not! No program is perfect and can always be improved through experience and innovation. One thing i would change would be to make c-cards expire and require re-training or basic skills evaluation every two years or so to keep the plastic good for air.

I liked LY's starting post for this thread but took it for what it is and what i think he ment it to be. His opinion and what he has worked out for himself. From what i've read & heard about DIRF, it is a good thing to consider but IMO it is not the holy grail of diving. Again, agreeing with psionicdfw here, decide for yourself what is right for you. GUE is not your only choice if your serious about being a safe diver.

[sheck33]

gedunk once bubbled...

How about this?

Because a DIRF course may be a good thing for most any diver, doesn't mean that the programs provided by all other training agencies are a bad thing for all divers.

I've said this before and i agree with psionicdfw, OW divers should be droppin like flies if OW training is as screwed up as some of you say. I'm in full agreement that DIRF is great ADVANCED training for any diver to take if they so desire but do not believe it is needed to be safe diver in many senarios. No statistical model of anything is absolute yet we have to hang our hats on something. How many stop signs do you think are run each year without incident or report? For what they are, statistics don't lie. Diving accident occurence of 0.00004 or less is really pretty amazing considering all the things that can go wrong in all possible senarios.

Do i take this to mean everything is perfect with existing agencies training programs? Certainly not! No program is perfect and can always be improved through experience and innovation. One thing i would change would be to make c-cards expire and require re-training or basic skills evaluation every two years or so to keep the plastic good for air.

I liked LY's starting post for this thread but took it for what it is and what i think he ment it to be. His opinion and what he has worked out for himself. From what i've read & heard about DIRF, it is a good thing to consider but IMO it is not the holy grail of diving. Again, agreeing with psionicdfw here, decide for yourself what is right for you. GUE is not your only choice if your serious about being a safe diver.

one, nobody said that other agency's classes are a 'bad' thing but they are seriously lacking.

DIRF is not advanced training, these are the basic skills taught that should be taught in any agency's OW class. Just MHO.

The statement: 'Diving accident occurence of 0.00004 or less ' by itself is meaningless.

Luckily the vast majority of OW divers that get certified never dive again after their class for a variety of reasons.

GUE as of yet is the only agency to my knowledge that does have expiring c-cards and you need to do so many dives in the particular environment you were trained in to keep the card current, it is amazing that this isnt done by other agency's.

i do see a general attitude problem in the statement: 'everybody should decide for THEMSELVES what works for THEM. WHat about your divebuddy? You are a buddy TEAM, in a team you should consider what works for the TEAM, not just you.

a beautiful example of this are these moldable gagomatic mouthpieces, great for the diver that uses them, not so great for a OOA dive buddy who now has to choke on a mouthpiece too.

[TCDiver1]

sheck33 once bubbled...
[B]

one, nobody said that other agency's classes are a 'bad' thing but they are seriously lacking.


Word play is great eh sheck? "Seriously lacking" is not a "good" thing where i come from



DIRF is not advanced training, these are the basic skills taught that should be taught in any agency's OW class. Just MHO.


Cool, as you know we differ on that opinion



The statement: 'Diving accident occurence of 0.00004 or less ' by itself is meaningless.


Meaningless only if it refutes your stand. One accident in a gazillion dives is meaningful if it happens to you or yours. At a minimum 0.00004 means all is not broken, considering we are dealing with humans here



Luckily the vast majority of OW divers that get certified never dive again after their class for a variety of reasons.


Yup, agree with you totally. How come the ones who do keep diving are not droppin like flies? How many people have DIRF training today?



GUE as of yet is the only agency to my knowledge that does have expiring c-cards and you need to do so many dives in the particular environment you were trained in to keep the card current, it is amazing that this isnt done by other agency's.


A good start i will agree. What stops the diver from cookin their logbook if they didn't have time to do the dives or they did the dives but did not practice the skills needed. IMO the only way this will work is through trained supervision of skills. Not everyone is as honest as you sheck33



i do see a general attitude problem in the statement: 'everybody should decide for THEMSELVES what works for THEM. WHat about your divebuddy? You are a buddy TEAM, in a team you should consider what works for the TEAM, not just you.


More word play sheck33? GUE is not the only agency that stresses buddy skills. GUE may take a different approach but they did not invent the buddy system!



a beautiful example of this are these moldable gagomatic mouthpieces, great for the diver that uses them, not so great for a OOA dive buddy who now has to choke on a mouthpiece too.

I got the same "gag- o-riffic" response with my first Secure. Did the same thing we did with our football mouthguards. Trim out the rear portions, no more gag. Mines been ripped out of my mouth more than once & used in stress training senarios by several other divers with little problem. Standard mouthpiece on alternate air sources .... no problem.

Sorry if the quotes don't work out here, not sure how the multiple quote thing works yet

Phew ... think that editted right

[large_diver]

To borrow the driving analogy offered above.....

Most of us drive cars. Most folks get the minimum required training and don't spend a lot of time working on their driving skills. Statistics show that driving is relatively safe.

So why get better? You've driven to work every day for the last 10 years and never been in an accident -- you MUST be a good driver! ;-)

Say you are driving 80 mph on the interstate and a tire blows. Say a child runs out in front of your car chasing a ball and you need to take quick evasive action. Say you hit a patch of ice or start hydroplaning and need to know how to react.

Are these everyday occurances? No. Will they happen to most of us in our driving careers -- the statistics also say no. Will you be able to handle them if you don't work on your skills? If you are lucky....but why leave safety to luck and statistics? If you practice to meet the minimum requirements......

But this isn't just about safety.....and as the statistics tell us above, we likely won't die even if we are poor divers (or poor drivers). But IMHO, diving (and driving) is more fun if you are better at it......unless you were that kid in the 4th grade dodge-ball game who somehow enjoyed being the first one "hit" during every game. I'm not a perfect diver or even a good diver (OK, so I do think I'm an excellent DRIVER).....but I am trying to practice, which is what GUE/DIR advocates.

My $0.02.

[ScubaDan]

776 miles is still a lot to travel, plus I will need to buy BP/wings, 7ft hose and would they accept that I have a cobra for my computer and SPG.

[TCDiver1]

large_diver,

I agree with what your saying, but i don't agree with the illusion that is sometimes implied that GUE is the only way to become a safe diver.

For example, the average diver would benefit from a better, more horizontal, less vertical trim, but it is not REQUIRED to be a safe diver. It's not all or nothing IMO.

I think what GUE is trying to accomplish is GREAT! But IMO it is not the only way to become a good diver.

Rainman out!

[roakey]

ScubaDan once bubbled...
776 miles is still a lot to travel, plus I will need to buy BP/wings, 7ft hose and would they accept that I have a cobra for my computer and SPG.
Only requirements for the DIRF class are a 5 or 7' primary hose, a 22 or 24" backup hose, no split fins, 25 dives and read the DIR fundamentals book. Your console will work just fine.

That's it!

See the requirements here:

http://www.fifthd.com/divestore/classes/Fundamentals.htm

Roak

[O-ring]

Only requirements for the DIRF class are a 5 or 7' primary hose, a 22 or 24" backup hose, no split fins, 25 dives and read the DIR fundamentals book. Your console will work just fine.
There was a guy in our class in splits and the GUE guys were cool about it. When he was having a problem with one of the kicks, one of our instructors traded him fins and let him try the jets.

Although I cannot imagine trying to backward kick in split fins...it is hard enough to learn with stiff paddle fins.

[sheck33]

gedunk once bubbled...


Meaningless only if it refutes your stand. One accident in a gazillion dives is meaningful if it happens to you or yours. At a minimum 0.00004 means all is not broken, considering we are dealing with humans here

A good start i will agree. What stops the diver from cookin their logbook if they didn't have time to do the dives or they did the dives but did not practice the skills needed. IMO the only way this will work is through trained supervision of skills. Not everyone is as honest as you sheck33

More word play sheck33? GUE is not the only agency that stresses buddy skills. GUE may take a different approach but they did not invent the buddy system!



Not sure why only your text appears in the quotes, weird, ah well.

as for the statistics, in this case the statistics statement is not meaningless because i agree or disagree with it. For the statement to be meaningfull one needs to categorize among the different groups of divers and what percentage of accidents is accounted for by what group.

The car analogy has nothing to do with diving, there are vastly more drivers than divers so they are hard to compare. But it is true that most drivers have no driving training beyond knowing how to operate the car and that is the cause of the staggering amount of car accidents on the road.

as for horizontal trim, there is the environment aspect of it, there is more to it than safety.

yes you are right, we can all invent the next 400 dives in our logbook but if i assume that that is the case the whole discussion is kinda pointless :D

lovely discussion huh :) :)

[TCDiver1]

sheck33 once bubbled...



lovely discussion huh :) :)

Yeah, you & i have a habit of doing that from time to time don't we?;)

[detroit diver]

FYI, you don't need a minimum of 25 dives. I know of a couple of people that joined the local DIRF class in the range of 6-10 dives. And the instructors were glad to be able to start from scratch.

Although not required, I would HIGHLY suggest a backplate and wings. Contact the instructors or folks setting up the class and see if you can borrow some to try for the weekend. We had at least 3 sets of "loaners" for students last month here in Detroit. I would think that most divers setting up a class like this would have extra "stuff".

[large_diver]

gedunk,

Agreed -- GUE has no right to claim exclusivity on safety. I think if the GUE folks (and their followers) spent more time talking about why their system is safe and didn't waste time and energy bashing others......their message would be accepted by a lot more people.

Sheck -- regardless of how many drivers there are out there, I think it is a relevant analogy. One reason is that the number of drivers who have "advanced" training is miniscule as a percentage of the total driving population....so it is an extreme example of a relatively complex activity that can lead to injury/death that people take for granted when it comes to skill development. If someone started a DIR driving course offering instruction in such basic skills as proper use of momentum, engine braking, situational awareness, etc., and said that most drivers have not optimized their skills, most folks with any driving experience would laugh and say it is unnecessary, and "I've been diving for years without an accident, who are you to tell me what 'doing it right' is? Are you saying I'm doing it wrong?"....very similar to the spirited conversations we all have around here ;-)

[O-ring]

I think we would all look funny with extra steering wheels bungied around our necks. I would also hate to spend the money to get bellows pockets put on all my khakis with shock cord loops inside to hold my maps, backup car keys (left side), and gas cards. Would I have to tow a second, redundant car behind me in case my primary car failed?

How would gas switches work? What is the optimum octane mix for 55 mph on the highway?

[Lost Yooper]

gedunk once bubbled...

I liked LY's starting post for this thread but took it for what it is and what i think he ment it to be. His opinion and what he has worked out for himself.

That's all I ever intended by starting this thread. Things tend to snowball out of control once in a while.

You know, I almost regret writing that post because I did so within hours of finishing the class. I was quite unhappy with myself immediately after the class, but I also wrote that post with a bit of tongue and cheek. The tweaking of the various skills, and mastering them to the best of my ability thus far, didn't take as long as I thought it would when I wrote that.

I would urge anyone who reads that first post not to be discouraged by it. I was a bit PO'ed with myself, but I realize now that forgetting the few bad habits that were instilled into me by various agancies was rather easy to do. Many people have quit diving, teaching, or divemastering after taking a Fundementals class, and I think they are ill advised to do so (most of the time). Although I can relate to their feelings, recognizing the bad habits, and knowing how to unlearn them, is the key. The desire to be the best and safest diver possible is entirely up to the individual.

Mike

[ScubaDan]

:lol: :giggle:

[sheck33]

large_diver once bubbled...

Sheck -- regardless of how many drivers there are out there, I think it is a relevant analogy. One reason is that the number of drivers who have "advanced" training is miniscule as a percentage of the total driving population....so it is an extreme example of a relatively complex activity that can lead to injury/death that people take for granted when it comes to skill development. If someone started a DIR driving course offering instruction in such basic skills as proper use of momentum, engine braking, situational awareness, etc., and said that most drivers have not optimized their skills, most folks with any driving experience would laugh and say it is unnecessary, and "I've been diving for years without an accident, who are you to tell me what 'doing it right' is? Are you saying I'm doing it wrong?"....very similar to the spirited conversations we all have around here ;-)

Dear Largediver,

Why is it that so many divers (drivers then too possibly) are so stuck in their ways? Forget about the few DIR folks that are arrogant and screw it up for us all but even when a more efficient way is merely suggested by a DIR diver it is very often not recieved too well. Again the acronym DIR is poorly chosen.
Very often the frustration i see is the fact that after divers see the DIR setup and trying it out they are frustrated because they spent a lot of money on gear the LDS sold them.
Dont kill the messenger that brings unwanted news.

i have never told any diver that they were suicidal and were going to die diving the gear they had. Although the couple i mentioned in an earlier post tempted me, they actually WERE on a suicide mission.

if you can do it better that doesnt mean you were doing it wrong before, ahhhhh the acronym.....:D

[large_diver]

Why is it that so many divers (drivers then too possibly) are so stuck in their ways?

Good question -- human nature? We're all just a bunch of lemmings anyway.....in most cases sticking to the beaten path.....;-)

[roakey]

psionicdfw once bubbled...
I am new to this board so excuse my criticisms or dismiss them entirely...

Reading this thread makes my head hurt. Diving is supposed to be fun...
You’re right, diving is supposed to be fun. What the DIRF class does is to teach you the “lost art of diving” to make it even MORE fun. Because SO much has been lost over the years of accelerated dive classes and divers going from OW students to instructors in six months, the class IS hard. But I have two distinct ways I dive, one is for fun and one is for practice. I spent last weekend down in Santa Rosa, New Mexico practicing. It’s hard, but then when I get in the water for fun, I have even more fun than I had before I stumbled upon DIR because the skills I’ve worked on have become automatic (or are becoming automatic). DIRF teaches you nothing that doing lots and lots of dives with lots and lots of different equipment would teach you, it’ll just speed up the process incredibly. And it’s the speeding up that’s the hard part, not the diving. This is why the class is hard.

Note that no where is the claim made that non-DIR diving is dangerous, but the claim IS made that DIR diving is SAFER. A simple understanding of Hick’s law and the non-standard that’s passed off as the “golden triangle” of octo-placement is one clear example.

It comes down to the vast majority of divers (including many instructors) “don’t know what they don’t know.” It used to be that folks would come back from a cave class going “ohmygawd, I don’t believe what I didn’t know!” DIRF opens the door to recreational divers as well as budding technical divers to have that epiphany without having to take a full cave class. The lost art of diving has been kept alive in the technical community and now GUE is sharing that with the recreational community, the only organization I know that’s actively doing so.

I spent 15 minutes talking DIR with a DM and an instructor down at Blue Hole this weekend and after five minutes they were both slapping their foreheads going “Gawd, this makes SO much sense!” It’s not their fault they didn’t know about it, their instructors didn’t have a clue either.

They didn’t know what they didn’t know, neither did their instructors, and probably those instructor’s instructors, etc.

So much has been lost over the last 25 years as simple, robust, hydrodynamic equipment has given way to the spectacular fashion accessories that the equipment manufacturer’s marketing departments have dreamed up. THAT I feel is the genesis of the problems we’re seeing now.

Lastly, some comment was made that most of the “DIR equipment” existed before DIR. You’re right. DIR really didn’t invent anything. What it did was pull together existing equipment and methodologies into one cohesive system.

Roak

[TCDiver1]

Lost Yooper once bubbled...


That's all I ever intended by starting this thread. Things tend to snowball out of control once in a while.

Mike
I'm glad i didn't put words in your mouth. I wasn't trying to.

This whole GUE/DIR debate is quite good IMO. It's a generally good way to get the word out on what it is all about. I've been diving and teaching diving for quite awhile and the first time i ever heard the term DIR was on this board.

Since that time i have been asking divers & students alike if they know what DIR is. In our area, west of you, i would say less than 10% have even heard of GUE/DIR and of that 10% less than 1% have a clue as to what is all about. I include myself in the 10% but probably not in the 1%.

All the debate has me considering a DIRF class in the future. Maybe then i'll see the light.;)

Until then i'll stick by the guns i can hit the target with. My experience with the Padi educational system has served me well over the years. I believe it can serve anyone well if taught properly and taken seriously by the student.

[Lost Yooper]

I've only recently moved down here from the UP, and learned about the whole mess via internet when Irvine first started talking about it about 1995 or so. Some people don't understand that by living in northern Michigan, you may as well be in the Swiss Alps trying to find a decent dive shop (or any dive shop), truly knowledgeable instructors, or good information/advice. It ain't happening up here! We have some awesome diving up here along with great scenary, but that's about it.

:)

Mike

[TCDiver1]

The city i live near has two dive shops, not many of those in northern lower, so you can guess what city.

We have a running joke that to own a LDS in this area you must get all common sense & tact sucked out of your brain first.

Then you go to class to learn to profess that the lines your competitors sell are all crap. Only the lines you sell are the "good stuff."

You finally qualify for LDS ownership when you learn the truth about scuba instruction. That it is a necessary evil required to sell scuba whistles, bells, widgets & bobbles. Only instructors get rich off of classes after all.

Now that you are a full fledged dive LDS owner, you qualify to lead trips to exotic places for your clientele. Traveling essentially for free since your customers owe at least that much to you just for being in business.

Quite amazing really.

[DennisW]

I found this thread quite interesting. I also liked the general attitude of the DIR folks that posted here. No, I'm not a DIR diver, probably never will be, I've even been called a stroke, I'm quite proud of that. I didn't read every post in it's entirety, but I believe I got the general gist of things. I believe that any training that enhances our skills and adds new ones will make us safer divers. I don't have to be DIR to acknowledge that fact.

I practice some basic OW safety skill nearly every time I dive. I try very hard to have good bouyancy. Is it easy? No, I only get to dive a few times each year, but I know I am better than the majority of divers I see out there. It's still not good enough, but I keep working on it. I nearly always practice a mask removal and replacement. I try many different kicking techniques. After watching the videos on the fifthd web site, I have some more to try out. They look interesting. I've had someone come up to me out of air before. They didn't signal out of air or wait for me to give them my regulator, they just took it out of my mouth. The OOA practice is OK if you are with someone that cares about your safety. Otherwise, let the person you have never seen before in your life have your primary and just use your octopus, you surely aren't getting your primary back.

There are some things I like about my gear and some that I don't. I like my Scubapro BC that I bought 14 years ago. I think I'll keep it for a while. I also like my Scubapro regulators, but I don't like the length of my hose, the hose tends to pull the 2nd stage out of my mouth. One day, I intend to fix that with a different hose. Will a 7 ft hose fix it? Maybe, but it may make it worse. I need to try it out to decide. I use an Air 2, you can say its a terrible reg all you want. I like it and will continue to use it. I love my Jet fins, but I hate the rubber straps. I want to fix that too. I watched the videos on the fifthd web site and they were using something else. I would like to see what those fin straps are to decide if I would like to try them out.

The point is that we can all improve our skills. Lost Yooper was humbled by his experience in a difficult skills class. I am sure I would be as well. I wouldn't stop diving because of it and I am glad he decided to continue. I dive for fun. I will never, never go into any deep dark holes. I also know my limitations and stay well within my own personal limits. To understand that, my friends, takes some maturity. And we can always use a little more maturity when it comes to diving and staying safe.

[detroit diver]

DennisW once bubbled...
......

I practice some basic OW safety skill nearly every time I dive. .......I love my Jet fins, but I hate the rubber straps. I want to fix that too. I watched the videos on the fifthd web site and they were using something else. I would like to see what those fin straps are to decide if I would like to try them out......

Dennis,

First off, you're one of the very few who ever practice their skills. It amazes me how many people jump into the water after not diving for 6 months or a year and just go diving.

Second, the straps you're referring to are spring straps and they're available from the fifthd site, or any halcyon dealer. Extreme Exposure also carries them.

Dive safe,

Jack