Anyone ever tell you that DIR = crazy?

[java]

Hi,
I have seen a lot on DIR diving especially on the BC forum.
I have also seen articles on the web that seemed to indicate that DIR divers are fanatic nuts. Have you had any experiance with people who think that way? How do you respond?
Thanks

[VTWarrenG]

Well, I'm a DIR diver, and I don't think I'm a fanatic nut. Generally, I just wave my hands at the people who ARE DIR zealots. In general, it's wise to be skeptical of anyone who's trying to convince you of something more than they are just trying to show you something.

In all honesty, I've found that most of the hardcore zealots (maybe 75% of them) are not very skilled divers -- they associate with the DIR movement only because of a psychological high of belonging with a vocal crowd that's moving and shaking things.

When someone says they're DIR, and proceeds to insult someone, I usually just look the other way, because they're usually full of crap anyway.

- Warren

[roakey]

...I can just hear the line screaming from the reel.

Roak

[java]

I am attaching a quote from an otherwise very informative page on gear



Among some groups, the subject of dive gear is a highly polarized one, with a lot of name-calling and long-running and bitter disputes. Good equipment decisions come from training, experience, deliberation, and good sense, and not from some cult-like devotion to a single rigid way of "Doing It Right". In the end, your gear should be adapted to your diving environment, your goals, and your abilities. Don't let yourself be swept away by a lot of overzealous, narrow-minded, self-righteous, irrelevant, irrational hogwash.


I'll leave it up to you to find the source (hint try www.google.com )

[VTWarrenG]

How does that relate in any way to the question of "Does DIR = Crazy?"

- Warren

[SPEEDSTER]

that they were refering to this part:


a lot of overzealous, narrow-minded, self-righteous, irrelevant, irrational hogwash.

as crazy.

By the way, is the source 123scuba.com?

[java]

At least that's not where I found it.

[VTWarrenG]

I'll repeat my previous statement, this time in reference to the author who so eloquently penned that DIR is "a lot of overzealous, narrow-minded, self-righteous, irrelevant, irrational hogwash:"


In general, it's wise to be skeptical of anyone who's trying to convince you of something more than they are just trying to show you something.

It sounds to me like this author has a very strong personal bias, and would rather hide behind a list of opinionated adjectives than critically argue DIR.

What does it matter what this person thinks anyway? Java, since you're the one asking -- what do you think of DIR?

- Warren

[ninja]

DIR is hogarthian with a label attached it... IMHO i'm Hogarth!!

LEN

[VTWarrenG]

ninja,

What's really funny about all of it is that I hardly ever think about what "DIR" means. To me, it's just a label, like Hogarthian, or Tree. I rarely think about the denotation of the acronym, nor do I think it really matters. It was a poor choice of names, but so was calling the electron charge 'e.' Life is about more than names. Unfortunately, a lot of the opponents of DIR are so offended by the name that they're unwilling to look past it.

- Warren

[Scubaroo]

Originally posted by java
At least that's not where I found it. Well will you stop being so glib, and inform us? I tried using keywords from your quote on Google, and couldn't get a match.

How is your backplate search coming along? Did you make a decision?

[Zept]

Several people have told me that scuba diving = crazy.

[MikeS]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
Well, I'm a DIR diver, and I don't think I'm a fanatic nut. Generally, I just wave my hands at the people who ARE DIR zealots. In general, it's wise to be skeptical of anyone who's trying to convince you of something more than they are just trying to show you something.

In all honesty, I've found that most of the hardcore zealots (maybe 75% of them) are not very skilled divers -- they associate with the DIR movement only because of a psychological high of belonging with a vocal crowd that's moving and shaking things.

When someone says they're DIR, and proceeds to insult someone, I usually just look the other way, because they're usually full of crap anyway.

- Warren

Warren,

I think that that is the best description of the situation I've heard. The only thing that I would add is that if a diver, especially a new diver such as myself, is not smart enough to look past the occasional zealot, and take a look at what DIR has to offer, not the hype but the logical well thought out practices, then they're selling themselves short.

The biggest problem I see with DIR is the all or nothing mentality. I believe that to be a good diver you should question everything and come to your own conclusion on what is the best rather than blindly follow. There is no shortage of dive experts, all of which know the “best” equipment configuration, all of which are different. I would like to believe that if DIR is the best, I’ll get there eventually, but I’m hard headed so it may take a while to get there.

I don’t have an unlimited dive equipment budget either. So while I am leaning toward a back plate and wings, based on the logical arguments, the BC is going to have to suffice a bit longer. I don’t think that this makes me an inherently unsafe diver. I think that what makes you a safe diver is most importantly a safe attitude and then training, practice, and experience.

Mike

[devilfish]

Out of all the Instructors out there, among all the agencies including independent instructors and training organizations, in all the years I never heard an Instructor saying that he/she is not doing it right. Amazing, isn't it?

[java]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG

<snip/>

What does it matter what this person thinks anyway? Java, since you're the one asking -- what do you think of DIR?

- Warren

I like a lot of the DIR philosophy. If you would have a look at the BC forum you would see that I am strongly leaning to a BP/Wings. One of my reservations is that my local LDS / Dive boat would be cluless or anti DIR making it not worth getting such gear (not due to being looked down upon but of them being scared of letting me dive the equip).

[java]

Originally posted by bengiddins
Well will you stop being so glib, and inform us? I tried using keywords from your quote on Google, and couldn't get a match.

I just did a google search and realized that the page wasn't indexed. Here it is:
http://www.njscuba.net/dive_gear/index.html

Besides the DIR quote the page is very informative.


How is your backplate search coming along? Did you make a decision?

Decision for now is to rent till I get more experianced and then make my decision

[NetDoc]

is Hogarthian in nature. There should be no problems with this basic setup. In fact, you may find others trying to figure it out as you go. I have as yet to have a boat or Dive Master hassle me over mine.

[Scubaroo]

java,

Take anything you read on that website with a grain of salt. It looks like a great site, but a couple of things I noticed:

1. "New Jersey" based - do a search on problems people have had with this part of the world regarding "overzealous, narrow-minded, self-righteous, irrelevant, irrational hogwash" enforced by some boat charters (no offence to our NJ listeners!)

2. The author advocates solo diving. There are links to a number of articles supporting solo diving, and none advocating buddy or team diving. The author is not being objective.

3. The author advocates pony bottles over a buddy.

4. The author advocates the use of integrated octo/inflators, and then goes on to say that an octopus is completely useless!

5. The author claims Nitrox training for inexperienced divers is dangerous.

No doubt I could find other examples of contentious issues on this site, but I haven't got all evening to waste on it.

regards

Ben

[java]

Originally posted by NetDoc
is Hogarthian in nature. There should be no problems with this basic setup. In fact, you may find others trying to figure it out as you go. I have as yet to have a boat or Dive Master hassle me over mine.

Can someone please explain what "Hogarthian " means?

Thanks

[VTWarrenG]

Hogarthian configuration was the name given to a long-hose primary, routed around the body, behind the neck, and into the mouth, and a bungied backup. DIR is sort of an evolution of Hogarthian configuration.

- Warren

[roakey]

Originally posted by java
Can someone please explain what "Hogarthian " means?
It started out as folks poking fun at William Hogarth Main's equipment configuration, which was minimalist and shared many of the features we find today on a DIR rig.

I think of “Hogarthian” as the equipment subset of the DIR philosophy.

Roak

[java]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
Hogarthian configuration was the name given to a long-hose primary, routed around the body, behind the neck, and into the mouth, and a bungied backup. DIR is sort of an evolution of Hogarthian configuration.

- Warren

What would a typical PADI/NAUI/SSI/Y instructor say to the above regulator setup?

[VTWarrenG]

Well, I certainly can't speak for any "typical" instructors. They'll have to speak for themselves.

- Warren

[sheck33]

The endless DIR discussion.
After diving the 'regular' gear setup for a long time i have switched to diving 'DIR'. I would not want to go back.
I just finished assisting with a PADI rescue class where i dive my BP/wing & long hose, i am always very pleased to see that the students are very positive towards the DIR gear configuration because in a class like this they can actually experience how much easier a lot of skills become, air share!, using this setup.
relatively new divers are much more open minded i found.
Unfortuneately there are a lot of 'DIR' divers that tend to be arrogant and think they know it better than everybody else.
Here the way the DIR message is conveyed is the problem rather than the message itself. All i can say is try it and see for yourself.
But dont forget that diving DIR is about more than just the gear, diving with a DIR configured rig doesnt make you a DIR diver.
to truly be a DIR diver requires dedication and practice.
The dive community will eventually catch on to the many advantages of diving DIR.

[JimC]

My instructor, while not neccisarily ordinary, dives DIR when not "on the job" for NAUI.

[jbd]

that apparently does the same as the previously mentioned NAUI instructor. So far as I can tell from my NAUI material, NAUI does not require a specific gear configuration. It does indicate that the desired air sharing techniques should be a part of your normal dive planning. Also there is indication that the exact techiques will depend on the configuration of the gear.

[O-ring]

What would a typical PADI/NAUI/SSI/Y instructor say to the above regulator setup?

First off, he is a PADI master instructor with 30 years of experience and somewhere shy of 1000 logged dives.

...I was DIR when I went into my AOW class and he didn't like it one bit. First, as we were gearing up, he said, "what, are you planning on going into tech diving someday?" He was on me like stink on a pig about my wrist mounted compass...telling me I should take it back immediately and get a proper console. He kept telling me my navigation skills sucked and it was because of my compass - while he was lavishing praise on my console wielding buddy. He told me I should get a bungee or something to tie my 7' hose off to my tank because "it is too long"...and this was all before we got in the water.

After we surfaced from the AOW navigation dive (IMHO, I did fine...I was right on the money and found everything he made me find) he said (to my buddy), "wow, you are a natural born navigator, which is more than I can say for froggie boy. Why the hell would you want to kick like that?" He was referring to my frog kicks and modified frogs that I was using since I don't really use a flutter much at all except in open water when I am far from the bottom. I was tempted, at this point, to cram my fist down his goddamn throat or at least to mention something about his technique being piss-poor (his proper flutter kick looked like a WWII bombing run when he cruised the bottom of the quarry) since he was blinding all the students with his silt throwing kicks. I may not be god's gift to navigation, but my buddy could do no wrong and her buoyancy was a sight to behold. She had a hell of a time descending. He complained that I didn't "descend quickly enough" when he gave the thumbs down, but I guess he had his ****ing eyes closed when I had to swim back up to the surface, abort my horizontal descent, grab my buddy by the BC straps, and yank her down to about 10'-15' so her suit would compress so she could stay down. She was so underweighted she could not even descend at all (she would dump the air from her back inflated BC in a vertical position and try to "scull" her way down with her hands. I kept telling her to pike, but she never tried it). After the dive, I gave her 4# of my weight to put in her trim pockets so she could at least get down. After that, she would descend ok and stop when her fins or stomach hit the bottom...buoyancy all over the place. He NEVER mentioned one word about her buoyancy or lack thereof.

That was dive #1. On the deep dive I think he could tell I was getting pissed because he kept his mouth shut. On the night dive, he complained that I didn't have my backup lights on a wrist lanyard. I told him they were "backup" lights, and I can use them clipped off to my harness just fine and that I was not buying a "proper light" because I was saving for a canister light. He didn't like that.

On the search and recovery and wreck dives, he wasn't as vocal, but when we were heading back to shore (at about 30') he gave the thumbs up. We all started to ascend, when my Vyper gave me a safety stop as I hit 19' or so. I hovered and finned around looking at fish, etc. for 3 minutes and ascended when my computer told me I had finished my safety stop. As soon as I broke the surface, he said, "normally, we _ascend_ when the thumbs up signal is given." I noticed everyone (including my buddy...who is NOT SUPPOSED TO LEAVE MY SIDE) blew off his/her safety stop and followed him up. I told him, "well, my computer mandated a safety stop, so I thought it prudent to do what my computer says." He replied, "well, you shouldn't have to stop on a dive that shallow...that computer is probably wrong."

[CincyBengalsFan]

It's ashame that SCUBA is no longer simple. Seems like there is always someone that wants to complicate it. JUST DIVE & HAVE FUN DOING IT! EVERYTIME! You don't need to learn all the extra tricks to dive a few times a yr. on your vacation. And the industry has proven this. Type in DIR on any search engine and you will find what it mean. Death Incident Report! There are to many good honest DIR people that will just let the average diver go by and not say a word. My big PICKLE is the DIR divers that say everyone else is LACKING in skills and so on and so on. They simply don't stop. They are simply not in diving to have fun. They get off by putting down the other guy. That's there idea of fun.
In my opinion, a good diver is someone with common sense. Someone who has the sense to stay off the bottom & monitor air supplies, etc. etc.
Let's everyone just forget DIR or whoever and have fun. I saw a bumper sticker the other day at a quarry that said PADI SUCKS! I'M PADI, NAUI, CMAS, YMCA & formally NASDS. There all fine, it comes down to the student and the instructor and there relationship.
Everyone....Just dive to have fun please!!!!!

[sheck33]

Hey O-ring,

You gotta be kidding, if that story is true you were wasting your time and money with that 'instructor', i would be on the phone what that instructor's agency!!

[kwesler]

Hey O-Ring...sounds like your instructor was compensating for...something...:mean:

[kwesler]

1000 dives worth of experience isn't worth anything if you do not continually learn, re-evaluate and challenge your own beliefs and assumptions. That is what experience is about. Otherwise, it is not 1,000 dives, it is 1 dive 1,000 times!!

Ken

[java]

Originally posted by JimC
My instructor, while not neccisarily ordinary, dives DIR when not "on the job" for NAUI.
I guess he wouldn't show his DIR equipment to his class. This is a real pity. Tell him to at least expose his class to the alternatives.

[java]

Hi,
Want to avoid what O-Ring went through. An instructor like that is something I would love to avoid. Since the LDSs that I called did not know what BP/Wings were I'm not sure how they would react to DIR gear if I used it.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by java

I guess he wouldn't show his DIR equipment to his class. This is a real pity. Tell him to at least expose his class to the alternatives.

One of my AOW (PADI) instructors ran a DIR rig [in the class]. The 7 ft hose worked out great when he was feeding the divemaster and didn't have to worry about yoyoing between 10 and 20 ft during the safety stop.

[CincyBengalsFan]

kwesler You are exactly right. I continuely push myself everytime I'm in the water..pool or o/w.

[landlocked]

Originally posted by java
One of my reservations is that my local LDS / Dive boat would be cluless or anti DIR making it not worth getting such gear (not due to being looked down upon but of them being scared of letting me dive the equip). I'm confused about why a boat would not let you dive the eqip. (By the way, I am not DIR.) You would have a very well built and reliable bouancy device, you have an octo hanging in the triangle (between the chin and both hips) as supported by the major angencies, you would have a high quality primary on a 5/7 foot hose (maybe longer than some are used to but the application to tech diving is obvious.) Knife, compass, pressure gauge. So, where's the beef? The only complaint that I have ever heard is not that the equip setup isn't good but that folkes don't like the way some people go about proselyting their views. :confused:

[ckharlan66]

Landlocked,

I agree completely with what you said.

The only thing I have heard from people who are against the system is that the backup (octo) is bungeed. In OW classes they teach you to go for the reg that is hanging but when you go with the bungee backup it is now attached to you and they have to get the primary if it is needed. My personal opinion is that this should be covered in the predive planning so it shouldn't be an issue.

Chad