Enough GUE, tell me about other tech certs

[dherbman]

With all the threads relating to GUE courses, it seems as though there is nothing else going. Of course, this is not the case and I'd like to hear more about peoples experiences (good and bad) with other agencies offering technical certifications.

I'm standing at the threshold and want to make as informed a decision as possible.
What path did you choose and why did you choose it? Any regrets?

[cyklon_300]

I have TDI certs for adv nitrox/deco, entry trimix, and intro cave...

The manuals absolutely sucked, but both instructors were first-rate. That's all that really matters. I selected the individuals based on their reputation, the certifying agency was not much of a consideration.

[matt_unique]

I have TDI certs for adv nitrox/deco, entry trimix, and intro cave...

The manuals absolutely sucked, but both instructors were first-rate. That's all that really matters. I selected the individuals based on their reputation, the certifying agency was not much of a consideration.


Ditto for me except I have not gone beyond Deco Procedures and Adv. Nitrox. I hope to continue with Intro to Trimix next summer.

--Matt

[Tavi]

I took the NAUI path (I'm a NAUI Instructor) Our class was combined. Technical Nitrox, Deco Procedures, and Helitrox. Excellent course, excellent Instructor. We did our practice dives in the deep side of Gilboa Quarry. Our C-dives were in the St Lawrence Seaway, Awesome wrecks!!!

Next year Trimix and Technical wreck penetration.

I almost went with TDI, but then the shop I work with found a NAUI Tec instructor that would travel to us. He has dived with the big boys, and has done a lot of the diving that I would like to do.

[JeffG]

With all the threads relating to GUE courses, it seems as though there is nothing else going. Because other than GUE, all the other's are dependent on having a good instructor. And there's the rub...whats a good instructor vs a not so good. and are you even qualified or be in a position to judge it? I have only met 1 TDI instructor that I would/will/have taken a class from, but I have seen some that I wouldn't want to take OW classes from.

[JeffG]

And there's the rub...whats a good instructor vs a not so good. and are you even qualified or be in a position to judge it?I have seen people defend some instructors and say they were great, and yet the instructor couldn't pass DIR-f.

So, What is the value of thats students opinion?

[NWGratefulDiver]

I recently completed an IANTD Recreational Trimix class ... and to be honest, the only similarities between that class and GUE Rec Triox are in the title.

The IANTD class is all about the gas ... mostly about calculating "best mix" and learning how to use a deco planning software (we used Z planner) to plan your dives.

I found the skills requirements fairly easy ... things like gas consumption calculations, lost mask drills, OOA drills, shooting a bag and ascending the line, holding a mid-water stop for a specified time period, planning a dive with stops and keeping the profile within the constraints of the plan ... all reasonably basic stuff for someone thinking to get into using helium mixes.

The book is fairly well-written ... it's called "Tech Lite" or some such, by Bill Main. It's got some good information in it, but if I were writing it I'd make it a bit less "clinical" in places and remember that my audience is divers and not medical students.

The test is mostly about dive planning ... figuring out things like END levels, best mixes, and no-deco times.

Overall I found the class to be worthwhile ... I wanted some exposure to both IANTD and this particular instructor and wasn't disappointed on either account.

But when I get the opportunity I'll still take the GUE Rec Triox class because it's far more rigorous when it comes to diving skills and stress management ... although from what my friends who have been through the class have told me about the class, the "triox" part is almost an afterthought.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Dive-aholic]

With all the threads relating to GUE courses, it seems as though there is nothing else going. Of course, this is not the case and I'd like to hear more about peoples experiences (good and bad) with other agencies offering technical certifications.

I'm standing at the threshold and want to make as informed a decision as possible.
What path did you choose and why did you choose it? Any regrets?

What kind of diving do you want to do and where do you plan on doing most of it? I went to Florida to begin my cave training and after having completed the first course chose to do my tech training with him. I could have gone locally (actually about 2 hours away for the classroom and CA for the OW) or the northeast. Tech wreck diving is something I eventually want to do, but for now caves are my focus. So I took my tech training in cave country. It just made sense that way.

It is tough to know what a good instructor is, so even though agencies shouldn't matter, that argument doesn't work out that well either. Prior to cave training, I contacted several instructors and asked them several questions. I was able to eliminate about half of them based on their responses alone. I've also come across some instructors that I thought were pretty good (when it comes to recreational diving), but I wouldn't think about taking a tech class with them. The main reason is the only diving they really do is the weekly quarry training dives. Who cares if someone logs 300 dives a year! If 275 of those are quarry training dives, then what can they teach me about real tech diving?

I don't know much about GUE other than what I've read about it. It's not available where I live. And I haven't come across any GUE instructors in any of my travels. So I chose based on the instructor.

Basically, decide where you'll be diving most of the time, then start looking in that area for instructors. Make sure the instructor you choose actually dives, not just training dives, and make sure the instructor you choose will fail you if you aren't ready for tech diving (one of the questions I asked was the fail rate, which can be taken a couple of different ways - too high and they aren't doing their job, too low and they pass students too easily).

[cyklon_300]

I have seen people defend some instructors and say they were great, and yet the instructor couldn't pass DIR-f.

So, What is the value of thats students opinion?

who you're directing this particular comment at, but as I stated previously, my selection (and any subsequent recommendation) was/is based on the instructors' reputations within the dive community and their resumes.

Participation with a world-class cave exploration team and continual involvement in cave diving since the 1970s were the compelling reasons I chose these individuals.

If either of these instructors couldn't pass a dirf class, I'll eat my jetfins.

[dherbman]

So, What is the value of thats students opinion?

"That" students opinion has no value. The question is how to tell which student is "That" student. When it all comes down to it, I make decisions based on the sum of information available, rather than a single source. I look for external validation and a common denominator.

As an example, the common denominator in your posts is that you are a smart arse with knowledge and the ability to think on your own. I like that, but weigh what you write (or don't) against what I know (or think I know) and validate points made or issues raised using any number of external sources.

Rob,

What other questions did you ask prior to selecting an instructor?

[Meng_Tze]

"That" students opinion has no value. The question is how to tell which student is "That" student. When it all comes down to it, I make decisions based on the sum of information available, rather than a single source. I look for external validation and a common denominator.

As an example, the common denominator in your posts is that you are a smart arse with knowledge and the ability to think on your own. I like that, but weigh what you write (or don't) against what I know (or think I know) and validate points made or issues raised using any number of external sources.

***?

[JeffG]

who you're directing this particular comment atNot directed at anyone. Just a scenario that plays out all the time.


The question is how to tell which student is "That" student.Yep. Again, a question that is almost as tough to answer as to which instructor is good ;)


It truly isn't fair to be a cynic and question everyone's opinion, but unfortunately the dive industry has manage to create such a monster. I certainly don't expect my opinion to be taken at full value just because I said (typed) it, but hopefully discussion of the issuse will help in giving insight in which a good instructor could be picked out the mob of morons.

[Dive-aholic]

Rob,

What other questions did you ask prior to selecting an instructor?

My initial questions focused on schedule and teaching philosophy. Sure, there's a lot to be taught in any kind of technical course, but I'd just as soon not spend hours upon hours in a classroom and then hit the water trying to remember everything that was covered in the classroom. So I want to know the course schedule and what we'll be doing. One of the best courses I took was a wreck course that took place at a picnic table next to the water. We discussed the didactic part, then went diving. We only talked about what was applicable for the next dive.

I then provide a list of my gear and ask if I need to purchase anything else prior to the course. I already know what I need, so this lets me know if I'm dealing with someone that knows what he's doing or if I'm dealing with someone that's stuck on a particular brand (I'll usually leave a piece of gear off the list and then ask about different brands). I also like to take courses from independents. These instructors are trying to sell themselves, not the gear in their store.

I ask about course fees. I know what the average rate is. I crossed an instructor off my list once because his fees were less than half the going rate - you get what you pay for.

I ask about experience in that particular type of diving - How many cave dives have you logged? Goes along with the next question. You can figure out how many were training dives v. experience dives.

How many cave divers have you certified? And more importantly, how many have you not certified due to insufficient skills or wrong attitude? I really liked the response the instructor I chose provided (from saved e-mail):

"Since I log by courses and not by divers, number of courses is easier.
Prior to moving to Florida, I taught Cavern only. Since moving to Cave
Country and pursuing cave and mixed gas training as my occupation, I have
taught slightly more than 160 overhead courses with approximately 50 of
those at Full Cave or above (specialties). While each diver is judged on
individual merit and ability, I require a higher level of performance as
the diver progresses through the overhead curriculum. By estimate only,
somewhat less than half complete Full Cave, DPV, etc. on their first
attempt. I "fail" very few, but do often require additional work prior to
completion. A failure occurs when I advise a diver I am no longer willing
to work with him."

Based on this answer and the previous one, this instructor had logged approximately 800 experience cave dives.

Finally, a big part of it is the attitude in the responses. This instructor was just answering questions. He wasn't trying to be a salesman or coming across as cocky. His website gave me the same impression.

Hope this helps you.

[Diesel298]

Back on topic..
ive used TDI for my tech training
as somone mentioned. the books arnt much. they give good info but in a simple, casual format.. and for me thats fine. the books can be given to the student and read rpior to the class, and the student can get the basics of the class, making the classroom more managable to follow..
the reason i think TDI sometimes get a bad name here is because theres a fair amount of flexability with the instructor. and alot of instructors want the money. and dont do the teaching. or wanna drive thecost down to be cost compettive with other shops in the area...
the thing is finding a good instructor..
the instructor i got my notrox from was all about streamlining classes to his bennift to maximize his time....
all the rest where from a instructor who most deffinetly makes you earn you c-card

[Diesel298]

I also like to take courses from independents. These instructors are trying to sell themselves, not the gear in their store.
.
thats a biggie right there..
so many places will contour there training to sell there gear
granted we all gotta eat, but ive seen this done to the extent the students gets outright lied to about somethings to bennifit the shop owner

[wb416]

thats a biggie right there..
so many places will contour there training to sell there gear
granted we all gotta eat, but ive seen this done to the extent the students gets outright lied to about somethings to bennifit the shop owner

All of my best experiences have been with independents.... or those only "loosely" associated with a shop...

[JeffG]

All of my best experiences have been with independents.... or those only "loosely" associated with a shop...
I know of one (instructor) that had a store and is now independent. He has commented on how to make ends meet he would take on students that he wouldn't take now just because of the financial pressure of owning a store.

[sunnyboy]

I think there is one "quick test" for a tech instructor: Do they "DIVE TECH"?

Not, do they "teach tech", but rather do they really, really DIVE tech. Not just dives on the tech course, either. When they go diving outside of instruction (they DO go diving outside of teaching, right?), what kind of diving do they do?

I would not take a tech course from someone who does 99% of thier diving with single tank and a BCD, no matter what their teaching cert level.

-S

[dherbman]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple more questions:
1) Would it be fair to say that the single biggest difference between GUE and other agencies is the consistency of instructor quality?

2) Is the difference in instruction by different agencies significant enough to make diving together problematic? For example, would a GUE diver and a NAUI diver have to compromise their training standard to accomadate the other?

[wb416]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple more questions:
1) Would it be fair to say that the single biggest difference between GUE and other agencies is the consistency of instructor quality?

2) Is the difference in instruction by different agencies significant enough to make diving together problematic? For example, would a GUE diver and a NAUI diver have to compromise their training standard to accomadate the other?

Can I throw out another variable here? Instructor quality is not the only consideration, but equally (or more) important is "Instructor-teaching-style" compatibility.

Have you ever had a recommendation that "This was the best Instructor I ever had", only to sit under their instruction and think "huh?". It wasn't necessarily that the instructor was "not good" or that the person making the recommendation was "wacked out". But rather, they may not "meet you where you are" so to speak.

I thinks it's very important to see if you can audit, or sit in a class prior to paying for instruction in a class, just to see if how they teach is compatible with how you learn.

You can head off a lot of misery this way!!!

bob

[NWGratefulDiver]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple more questions:
1) Would it be fair to say that the single biggest difference between GUE and other agencies is the consistency of instructor quality?

2) Is the difference in instruction by different agencies significant enough to make diving together problematic? For example, would a GUE diver and a NAUI diver have to compromise their training standard to accomadate the other?
1) Perhaps not the single biggest difference ... but (IMO) it's one of the major ones.

2) I'd say it depends on the divers and how familiar they are with each other. I'd have to believe that training to the same standards would make it easier to plan and execute the dive as a team, but not that training through different agencies would automatically mean diving together would be problematic. That would really depend on the divers and the amount of preparation that went into the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[sunnyboy]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple more questions:
1) Would it be fair to say that the single biggest difference between GUE and other agencies is the consistency of instructor quality?

2) Is the difference in instruction by different agencies significant enough to make diving together problematic? For example, would a GUE diver and a NAUI diver have to compromise their training standard to accomadate the other?

Actually, to expand on #1 - it's more an issue of "does the instructor have significant, ongoing experience in the type of technical dive that they are teaching?".

As I recall, GUE requires their instructors to have a significant number of dives each year in the technical diving they teach, OUTSIDE of the actual teaching. For example, Cave instructors MUST do a significant number of verifiable cave dives or they lose their teaching cert. These cannot be teaching (course) dives, they must be regular ("real") cave dives, and must be logged for quality control purposes (i.e. you must be able to prove you did the dives).

I don't think the other agencies are quite as rigorous. Certainly I am aware of "Tech" instructors whose only tech dives were on the actual courses, sometimes only 10 or so per year. All the rest of the time they were teaching OW or AOW. Some never do any diving outside of teaching. These folks wouldn't qualify as a GUE instructor, plain and simple.

Now, in fairness, there are many technical instructors with other agencies who dive "tech" all the time, for fun as well as teaching.

Ultimately, it is up to the student to ask about the instructor's "non teaching dives", to see whether they "walk the talk" or just "talk".

-S

-S

[limeyx]

Actually, to expand on #1 - it's more an issue of "does the instructor have significant, ongoing experience in the type of technical dive that they are teaching?".


-S

For me, it's even more than that (to continue the "#1" item :)

I know that when I do a GUE course, I am going to get instruction in a certain well thought out manner, which is consisted across all the courses, and in my opinion, the best way to dive (yes, maybe there could be other "best" ways too, but I like this one!)

Now, it's *possible* that another instructor from NAUI etc will teach the same way, but it's also possible they wont. So when I go with GUE, I know that they teach the way I want to learn, and they teach it the same way (plus or minus obviously as people are not robots) every time.

Also, from reading other posts (and having experienced DIR-F), it seems to me that GUE training is the most difficult to pass (therefore increasing my safety). Again, is it possible that a TDI course will be as hard to pass? of course, but what's most likely? For me, it's most likely GUE is harder to pass.

Also, the expiring cards (and to some extent the fact that not too many people go the GUE route compared to others) increases my chances of another GUE trained diver being on the same page, and diving rather consistently (to keep card renewed). Again, does that mean that some GUE divers can be rusty, or have developed an unsafe attitude? OF course, but I like to think the chances are at least reduced.

It seems the main barriers to diving with non GUE trained people are different ascent procedures -- even at the rec level. I have no problem diving with anyone as long as they have a safe attitude and a good enough skill level not to be too much of a danger, but since my ascent profile will (probably) be different to someone trained elsewhere, it makes it more difficult to dive

[Tavi]

Since NAUI's new Standards came out, I've been told that at the Trimix level the only difference in Standards between NAUI and GUE is that NAUI uses the RGBM Tables.
I've also been told that only the best get to be NAUI Tec Instructors.

It isn't easy. I'm not one ............Yet eyebrow

[WaterDawg]

A few things I have done are:

Ask the instructor for a list and contact info of past students, not just his buddies but a bunch of them, and ask them what other training they have taken and how it compares to this particular instructors. Have they taken GUE courses? How does it compare to that?

Also ask the instructor what other instructors they would recomend and talk to them.

[wb416]

Since NAUI's new Standards came out, I've been told that at the Trimix level the only difference in Standards between NAUI and GUE is that NAUI uses the RGBM Tables.
I've also been told that only the best get to be NAUI Tec Instructors.

It isn't easy. I'm not one ............Yet eyebrow

I think the writing was on the wall 4 or 5 years ago when ?Timothy O'leary of NAUI tec had a testimonial on the back of the Fundamentals book that JJ wrote.