Balloon Grade Helium

[South Pacific Diver]

Got a question for all of the stateside folks there who are able to stay in the loop. Does anyone there have a LDS using balloon grade helium for their mixes. Obviously this has not created a large problem here since I am here writing this post and all my trimix buddies are still around also. What are the legal aspects and should the LDS disclose what they are using?

[padiscubapro]

Got a question for all of the stateside folks there who are able to stay in the loop. Does anyone there have a LDS using balloon grade helium for their mixes. Obviously this has not created a large problem here since I am here writing this post and all my trimix buddies are still around also. What are the legal aspects and should the LDS disclose what they are using?

nothing about balloon grade helium is guaranteed or tested.. The risks go up the deeper you go.. just a little co or co2 can cause problems..

whats worse the cylinders are not vacuumed so anything can be in them..

I use grade 5.0 for all my mixing.. Its expensive about $219 per T in NY.. But I know exactly what is in it..

I would never use balloon grade ever, its too risky... too many unknowns.. The minimum I''d use is industrial, which is usually sucked to vacuum at leat once by any reputable gas supplier..

In many places all the grades come from the same source, but depending on the grade, what is done to the cylinders and if any additional filtering is done determines the purity..

[Spoon]

I would never use balloon grade ever, its too risky... too many unknowns.. The minimum I''d use is industrial, which is usually sucked to vacuum at leat once by any reputable gas supplier..



i asked the same question. this pretty much sums it up.

[DA Aquamaster]

It's worse than that. Some suppliers will add 20% O2 for liability reasons recognizing that some people at parties will use it for the donald duck effect when they talk. Balloons still float with a 20% 02, but party attenders won't pass out. Of course these same suppliers have no doubt realized that adding 20% O2 is also cheaper than straight helium. So if you are using balloon grade helium, what you may be getting may not be helium at all but rather some imprecise and undetermined mixture of heliox.

Industrial helium is normally refined by the same method and in the same equipment as more expensive grades of helium. So theoretically it is just as pure, but there is not the same quality control to ensure it stays that way. So quality will largely on the gas supplier. Having non-inert contaminants in their gas is not considered cool by many industrial users, so most (good) suppliers are pretty careful.

[TCDiver1]

Just to clarify something that was said earlier. When a tank is "vacuumed", (another way to put that is "a vacuum is pulled"), the majority of the gas which remains in the tank is removed from the tank via a vacuum pump. Vacuum pumps are capable of pulling deep vacuums and therefore leaving little or no undesired gas in the tank prior to filling filling with the desired gas.

This is what is done for the higher grade Heliums. The higher the grade, the deeper the vacuum that was pulled on the tank, the less residual gas was left in the tank prior to filling.

In our neck of the woods, Industrial Grade and Ballon Grade are the same thing. They say they don't add O2 to the ballon grade but who knows?

They don't pull the tank into vacuum for those grades, just bleed the tank to atmospheric pressure and fill. That means whatever gas was left in the tank at atmospheric, remains mixed with the Helium. Generally not a big deal in such small quantities.

But the only way to be sure is to get the higher grade Heliums. Considering the liability issues everyone is dealing with today, i wouldn't trust anything but the higher grades. Its not worth the money you save IMO.

[Rick Murchison]

Got a question for all of the stateside folks there who are able to stay in the loop. Does anyone there have a LDS using balloon grade helium for their mixes. Obviously this has not created a large problem here since I am here writing this post and all my trimix buddies are still around also. What are the legal aspects and should the LDS disclose what they are using?
Do not use "balloon grade" helium in diving mixes!
There is a chance that "balloon grade" is safe, but the only rule for it is "it will float a balloon." Period. While y'all are getting away with it for the time being, sooner or later it will bite you square in the tail.
Don't do it.
Rick

[South Pacific Diver]

Thanks for the answers so far. I understand that each and every dive using a questionable gas is playing russian roulette. I have never would have worried too much about the 02 content of balloon grade helium had I known I was diving it. I analyze gas at too many points. What concerns me is the trace gasses (contaminants) that may be present. Does anyone know of any specific requirement for the LDS to disclose information on the gases they are providing? I know that I am reaching here, but we are in the dark ages out here. By the way, what led to this discovery was a bottle of argon in the helium rack. I haskeled down bottles one and two in the rack and was shifting to bottle three when checking the lable revealed that it was argon in the same color bottle. What an accident report that would have made.

[South Pacific Diver]

While y'all are getting away with it for the time being, sooner or later it will bite you square in the tail.


Rick I know what you mean. Normally I blend my own brew, but having just retired from the navy and moved off base my banks are not back up yet. We have one dive shop on this island who provides helium and one gas supplier. I buy industrial grade gas for (dont laugh shipping to the south pacific) 90 cents a cubic foot. Our one dive shop moving helium is selling balloon grade at 1.25.... Maybe I should bring in a nuvair compressor and start my own gas station.

[Daylonious]

I just tend to think of it this way..

If your rig is your life support system, would you dive something you had a question about?

In short, would you bet your life that your gas was "probably okay.."

?

D.

[Don Burke]

Some suppliers will add 20% O2 for liability reasons recognizing that some people at parties will use it for the donald duck effect when they talk. Balloons still float with a 20% 02, but party attenders won't pass out.If any oxygen is added at all, it would have to be quite a bit less than 20% for a balloon to float.

.8 cubic feet of helium would weigh about 0.008 pounds.
.2 cubic feet of oxygen would weigh about 0.0166 pounds.
At a pressure of 1.1 ATA, this mixture would occupy about .91 cubic feet.
The .91 cubic feet of air being displaced would weigh about .068 pounds.
That leaves .04 pounds of force to hold up the balloon itself plus anything attached to it. That is quite a bit less than an ounce and any other contaminants in the gas would reduce it further.

[South Pacific Diver]

What are the legal aspects and should the LDS disclose what they are using?

Does anyone know of any specific requirement for the LDS to disclose information on the gases they are providing?

Maybe I should have asked only this question and left the paticulars out. The doubles were drained before I left the LDS. I didn't pay for the gas and I really don't care if a balloon with 20% O2 in it will float. Sorry folks but the above quotes was the only answer I was looking for...

[Don Burke]

What are the legal aspects and should the LDS disclose what they are using?I would imagine that would fall under state law for most. How that would shake out in Guam is a mystery to me.Does anyone know of any specific requirement for the LDS to disclose information on the gases they are providing?I doubt there is one. It is not a food or a drug.I really don't care if a balloon with 20% O2 in it will float.Perhaps, but I would imagine you do care what is in the gas.

Any oxygen in the gas provided as helium would reduce the MOD of the final mix.

[padiscubapro]

I would imagine that would fall under state law for most. How that would shake out in Guam is a mystery to me.I doubt there is one. It is not a food or a drug.Perhaps, but I would imagine you do care what is in the gas.

Any oxygen in the gas provided as helium would reduce the MOD of the final mix.

Don,

Most times I have seen oxygen added to an inert gas, its usually around 10%. This will not sustain consciousness (on the surface), but it will prevent someone depleting oxygen entirely from their system.

Personally, I add 10% oxygen (and teach this to potential dealers), into my Argon storage bottle as soon as I get it.. This prevents some yahoo from inadvertently hooking a scuba reg on a drysuit bottle and killing himself..

[webediving]

It all depends in how much your life is worth to you! At increased partial pressures the mor junk ou have in the tank the more junk you put in your system. Is it worth it?

T

[Rick Murchison]

For those who are thinking "well, I'm gonna analyse it anyway, so if there's oxygen in there I'll catch it," please remember the only rule for "balloon grade" (it ain't really a grade, by the way, but sort of a generally accepted standard) is that it will float a balloon. That means that it is perfectly acceptable to have considerable loads of other gasses - methane, for example - in the tank. Partial pressure blenders take note...
I say again
Do not use "balloon grade" helium in diving mixes!
Rick