Scubapro online sales

[Slider2268]

Was looking at scubatoys and noticed they are now selling scubapro online, has scubapro changed its policy about online sales??

[jsmharley]

I just logged on here to post the same thing. Was almost floored because of how much I have heard SP being anti internet. If so would love to get a MK17/s550 setup, or at least see the price of it from ST.

[Derek S]

This *could* be a monumental shift in the way dive retail is conducted. If Scubapro is now going to allow online sales, who else will follow suit?

That being said, support the LDS that supports you....

[Hoosier]

Was looking at scubatoys and noticed they are now selling scubapro online, has scubapro changed its policy about online sales??


Are you sure? I don't think so.

The price on their website doesn't mean that Larry will sell SP regulator by internet.

[StSomewhere]

This *could* be a monumental shift in the way dive retail is conducted. If Scubapro is now going to allow online sales, who else will follow suit?People are buying SP regs now over the internet, they are either buying from LP or else from Europe where vendors don't have the ability to be as restrictive:

Scubapro at SimplyScuba (UK) (http://www.simplyscuba.com/SearchResults.aspx?Manufacturer=1247)
Scubapro Regs at ScubaStore.com/DiveInn (Spain) (http://www.scubastore.com/search.asp?accio_busca=advanced&marca=SCUBAPRO&familia=381&precio=asc&modelo=asc&paraula=advanced_search)

[TwoBitTxn]

No, Scubapro has not changed their stance on online sales.

[DA Aquamaster]

In fact SP is making efforts to reduce on-line sales. I was told by our LDS owner that SP is now actively tracking purchases of larger quantities of regulators to ensure the shop that bought them is selling them on site. This is designed to prevent shops from buying quantities of regulators and then selling them to LP or other on-line dealers at discounted prices for re-sale on line. In effect, SP is trying to reduce the supply of grey market regs for on-line dealers to sell.

I am pretty sure SP dealers can advertise on line, but they still have to restrict sales to in store purchases only. There are also restrictions on advertising (and selling) regulators below the MSRP.

[under3483]

How do figure Scubapro's online policy hasn't changed? I just purchased a MK25 / S600 Reg on Scubatoy's website. I've never visited their store or talked to them on the phone, just "click and ship." This is a change. The only other US business I know of that sells Scubapro on-line is LeisurePro. These guys are not Authorized Dealers selling "gray market." Unless ScubaToys is no longer an Authorized ScubaPro Dealer?


No, Scubapro has not changed their stance on online sales.

[Hoosier]

Unless ScubaToys is no longer an Authorized ScubaPro Dealer?

It looks like they are NOT an authorized dealer anymore.. Their shop name isn't on SP dealer list anymore.... So, go figure....

[Nemrod]

So many of us are totally wired with the internet and yet whole scads of people don't know how to turn on a computer and how many of us can actually write any code. The future --good or bad---is going to include the internet. If a company chooses to write those sales off, like some ostrich with his head stuck in the sand then they will likely become extinct. I wish this were not so. We have a global economy, an increasing internet prescence, especially in the younger folks and we know where this is going. I hope brick and mortor stores can hang in there for the services only they can provide. I am afraid the little shoestring budget places are in for a "tight spot". N

[Hoosier]

I think it is SP's last ditch fight. SP knows how market is going and where it goes in the future. But, there is the network that SP has created so that SP is just waiting for the time that network dealers give up old way of business by themselves or meet the new trends, for example every network LDS don't have their own websites yet and huge retailers like Scubatoys are out of network more and more etc...... Otherwise, there will be huge inertia from the current network participants to change the way of business from ScubaPro. The "Free Part" Promotion is a kind of tool to secure US market by threatening customers. However, they know that it won't work as the market grows.

That is, it is just matter of time...

Just my 2 psi...

[DA Aquamaster]

It looks like they are NOT an authorized dealer anymore.. Their shop name isn't on SP dealer list anymore.... So, go figure....Hmmm....maybe we just need to ask Larry. Could be he is no longer an SP dealer and is liquidating remaining SP stock.


So many of us are totally wired with the internet and yet whole scads of people don't know how to turn on a computer and how many of us can actually write any code."We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology." - Carl Sagan


The "Free Part" Promotion is a kind of tool to secure US market by threatening customers. However, they know that it won't work as the market grows. Scubapro has had the free parts thing since long before there was an internet and for at least the last 20 years that I have been diivng and buying SP regs. It's a good thing for all involved, and I don't see the point in using it to take pot shots at them.

SP is also one of only 2 or 3 companies that actually support their regulators for decades - including over 90% of their long since discontinued models. Personally, I'd hate to lose that or lose the wide spread local dealer network they have established just to save a few bucks on the occasional internet purchase. Supporting your local dive shop with an extra $100 or so per regulator is well worth the money in the long run, if you plan to stay in this sport.

George Bernard Shaw stated "Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." and I'd assert that a free market economy is the same way. So be very careful what you wish for as you just may get it.

[awap]

Interesting. They are also showing some Atomic and Oceanic regs online. Maybe Scubatoys has gotten big enough to challenge the communistic restrictions.

Go for it, Larry.

[awap]

SP is also one of only 2 or 3 companies that actually support their regulators for decades - including over 90% of their long since discontinued models. Personally, I'd hate to lose that or lose the wide spread local dealer network they have established just to save a few bucks on the occasional internet purchase. Supporting your local dive shop with an extra $100 or so per regulator is well worth the money in the long run, if you plan to stay in this sport.


I fully agree. But if the economics of it really make it well worth it, why talk about it as "supporting" your LDS rather than just make the case for total ownership costs? I believe the quality of LDS customer and technical service would improve if the restrictions on competition were relaxed. I'm somewhat surprised that you are allowed to accept mail-order tech service work.

[under3483]

There is no "clik to buy" for Atomic products on the Scuba Toys site and Oceanic gear has been on Authorized Dealer's sites for years. None of this is new.

What's is new, is ScubaToys selling Scubapro online.

So Larry, what's up? Are you the new online bad boy? Or have you lost your ScubaPro Dealership? I guess if you lost your dealership then this gear is without Scubapro's warranty?


Interesting. They are also showing some Atomic and Oceanic regs online. Maybe Scubatoys has gotten big enough to challenge the communistic restrictions.

[USIA]

I have to say, I was pretty surprised when I read this thread. I noticed they are selling on LeisurePro also. Scubapro was always out front in saying that they didn't support online sales. USIA followed their lead in this respect. I'm dissapointed to see this from Scubapro, but I understand where they are coming from. We have had to relax our policies in regards to online sales also. I think it is sad in regards to a lot of LDS', but I think it shows that more LDS' are going to have to adapt.

[ZzzKing]

Interesting. They are also showing some Atomic and Oceanic regs online. Maybe Scubatoys has gotten big enough to challenge the communistic restrictions.

Go for it, Larry.

Best of all, he's got an Atomic B2 listed for $0!!! Larry, send me a dozen. Oh, what the heck, I'll drive out to see you first thing tomorrow morning! :D

[DA Aquamaster]

I believe the quality of LDS customer and technical service would improve if the restrictions on competition were relaxed. I'm somewhat surprised that you are allowed to accept mail-order tech service work.Most of the mail in service work is pretty hard to critisize though when it's a rural location with 300-500 miles between dive shops.

The small amount of Scubaboard generated service work (a few per year) always worries me though because it happens for one or more of the following reasons:

1. There is no dealer for that brand near where they live
2. They have gotten poor service from their LDS
3. Their LDS charges outrageous amounts for an annual service
4. Their LDS discourages annual services on older regulators in order to sell them a new reg,
5. Their LDS refuses to service a reg they bought used or off e-bay,
6. Or their LDS does not know how to do a decent job servicing and adjusting specialized designs like the a D300, D350 or D400.

Customers have to be pretty highly motivated by poor customer service locally to send a reg away for service as they end up spending about $30.00 total to ship them back and forth.

To refuse to do mail service after they present a good reason why they want to send the reg elsewhere would be poor customer service on my part. But none the less, every time I get a request to do this, I worry that some disgruntled and angry shop owner who provides poor service is going to blame the LDS I work with for the lost business and complain to his/her sales rep rather than regard it as a customer service problem in his/her shop and address it appropriately.

Personally, I think dive equipment companies with pricing policies should allow dealers more lattitude in discounting below the MSRP, especially on their higher end regulators where the margin is usually already generous and where shops could still be profitable with a larger discount. Allowing dealers higher discounts would give them a more effective tool to compete with and combat on-line retailers.

I still highly doubt Scubapro is going to allow authorized on-line sales as doing so would do serious damage to their dealer network even if they made major changes to allow local dealers to engage in on-line, mail order and internet sales with much deeper discounts than are now allowed.

I think there is a greater chance that Larry is just in the process of ending a Scubapro dealership and is liquidating stock.

[USIA]

I think there is a greater chance that Larry is just in the process of ending a Scubapro dealership and is liquidating stock.
I noticed Leisure Pro is also selling ScubaPro on line.

[Wayward Son]

LP has done so for a long time. They are not an authorized dealer, though.

[DA Aquamaster]

Leisure pro gets Scubapro items from grey market sources and then sells them with a leisure pro warranty rather than a Scubapro warranty as they are not an authorized Scubapro dealer.

[awap]

I still highly doubt Scubapro is going to allow authorized on-line sales as doing so would do serious damage to their dealer network even if they made major changes to allow local dealers to engage in on-line, mail order and internet sales with much deeper discounts than are now allowed.

I think there is a greater chance that Larry is just in the process of ending a Scubapro dealership and is liquidating stock.

Yes, I think they will be the last biggie to change -- but I also think the change is inevitable. Every time I look, I find new leaks in their system. Many are European sources which often require double shipping, aber Ich habe eine freund auf Deuchland. I think it is about time for SP USA to start selling the "part-for-life" agreement seperate from the basic reg and its warrenty. That might allow for price competition without undermining established authorized dealers.

I wish Larry would chime in here. I suspect he is doing well enough with other brands that don't limit his business model that he really doesn't need Scubapro any more. But I'll bet he has made arrangements to refer warrenty work to another area shop rather than just abandon his SP customers. I get the impression that the shops in the Dallas area are reasonably cooperative.

And I think you hit a bulls-eye on the MO service drivers. Reliable, reasonably priced, quality service that has the customer's confidence is the way to go.

[Rinkopr]

Watching what is an ongoing movement, I am going to purchase my own compressor as I don't think the LDSs are going to last. If a Ranger costs a dealer $400, and LP forces them to sell for $449, how can they stay in business keeping stock and staff available on demand and the overhead of a store.
Think WalMart in a small town...

[daniel f aleman]

Scuba Toys is only offering one reg. Sounds fishy.

Anyway, everyone should own their own compressor, and be able to mix Nitrox with it.

[DA Aquamaster]

Watching what is an ongoing movement, I am going to purchase my own compressor as I don't think the LDSs are going to last. If a Ranger costs a dealer $400, and LP forces them to sell for $449, how can they stay in business keeping stock and staff available on demand and the overhead of a store.
Think WalMart in a small town...That's the other side of the argument that most people don't mention.

Everybody wants low prices and bashes LDS's for charging more than large volume on-line retailers like Leisure pro, but then no one is going to want the lower level of customer service, lack of local repair options or a loss of the other shop associated services such as instruction, equipment rental, dive trips and the ability to try equipment on before buying it. Not to mention no available air.

Personally, my family is committed firmly enough to diving that we would invest the money in a comperssor and small casade system to meet our needs, but many divers would just cease all local diving.

[scubapro50]

ok .... how many of us have driven out of town to buy a new car ? If the same product (car or regulator) is cheaper down the road then most Americans are going to go find it .... maybe that's one reason so many American jobs have gone south due to low labor costs and Wal Mart sells so much stuff. I wouldn't be surprise to see a second or third rate scuba company selling equipment at your local Wal Mart store in the next couple of years ...

[mdb]

I do not think you will have to wait for a few years.

[WarmWaterDiver]

Looks like a lot more than one make of regulator, as well as other Scubapro stuff, is now available on-line at Scubatoys.

http://www.scubatoys.com/store/scubavendors.asp?txtsearchParamCat=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=111

[oly5050user]

Leisure pro gets Scubapro items from grey market sources and then sells them with a leisure pro warranty rather than a Scubapro warranty as they are not an authorized Scubapro dealer.
I remember hearing/reading? that scubapro wa ssuing LP for selling a bcd that had a scubapro logo on it but was not scubapro..seems lp had a company make knockoffs..
I also did a annual on a supposedly Aqualung micra regulator and when I had it apart the parts looked funny..The pin in the 2nd stage that holds the demand lever in place was rusted/pitted almost gone..never happened before on any other aqualung regulator I've seen..maybe this is another knockoff..
guy came into the store with a broken bcd,broken at the fitting where the bcd is connected to the corrugated hose-was a sherwood..When i asked him where he got it he said LP..took the same model off the wall and showed him how thick the plastic is on a REAL bcd from the manufacturer and compared it to his very thin plastic one..again another knockoff?? He broke it by simply pulling the assembly to dump the air..good thing he was not in the water at the time..

[gfisher4792]

Talking with Larry this week, they are closing out their Scubapro inventory and will not be getting any more.

[scubapro50]

The big boys have been getting smaller as new upcomming SCUBA companies have slowly ate away sales. Back in the 60s and 70s U.S.Divers threaten to cut off any dealer that sold their equipment over the phone or by mailorder. Too many of the local dealers were being undercut by Berry Diving Supply, Central Skin Divers and New England divers advertising in Skin Diver Magazine. They never did anything because they finally figured out that 20% of all the U.S. sales were comming from these three mailorder companies.

[awap]

I remember hearing/reading? that scubapro wa ssuing LP for selling a bcd that had a scubapro logo on it but was not scubapro..seems lp had a company make knockoffs..
I also did a annual on a supposedly Aqualung micra regulator and when I had it apart the parts looked funny..The pin in the 2nd stage that holds the demand lever in place was rusted/pitted almost gone..never happened before on any other aqualung regulator I've seen..maybe this is another knockoff..
guy came into the store with a broken bcd,broken at the fitting where the bcd is connected to the corrugated hose-was a sherwood..When i asked him where he got it he said LP..took the same model off the wall and showed him how thick the plastic is on a REAL bcd from the manufacturer and compared it to his very thin plastic one..again another knockoff?? He broke it by simply pulling the assembly to dump the air..good thing he was not in the water at the time..

I'm pretty sure that the myth that Leisurepro is selling conterfit goods is just another deception maintained by some unscrupulous LDSs who are trying to discredit their competition. I saw a conterfit Scubapro BC on ebay once being sold by one of the high volume used scuba gear sellers. It was missing the right shoulder pull dump. It is my understanding that one of the independent manufacturers who build so much of our "name brand" gear decided to make a few extra runs, unfortunately even leaving the Scubapro name on them. Although I'm sure that the grey market suppliers of Leisurepro could slip in some bogus good and the operators of LP would be none the wiser until customers started complaining. Many of the differences in good sold by LP just reflect their largely European distributor origins.

[mike_s]

This thread has been going on too long for the folks at Scuba Toys to not know about it, have someone email them or have someone call.

I'm really surprised I haven't seen Larry 'chime in' as one person put it.

[aquaoren]

I remember hearing/reading? that scubapro wa ssuing LP for selling a bcd that had a scubapro logo on it but was not scubapro..seems lp had a company make knockoffs..
I also did a annual on a supposedly Aqualung micra regulator and when I had it apart the parts looked funny..The pin in the 2nd stage that holds the demand lever in place was rusted/pitted almost gone..never happened before on any other aqualung regulator I've seen..maybe this is another knockoff..
guy came into the store with a broken bcd,broken at the fitting where the bcd is connected to the corrugated hose-was a sherwood..When i asked him where he got it he said LP..took the same model off the wall and showed him how thick the plastic is on a REAL bcd from the manufacturer and compared it to his very thin plastic one..again another knockoff?? He broke it by simply pulling the assembly to dump the air..good thing he was not in the water at the time..
Have you reported this "counterfeit gear" to the appropriate companies and authorities?

[nauifins73]

I can't imagine he (Larry) will "chime in" on this thread.

[TSandM]

I went in to my LDS yesterday to talk about buying an SPG. I told the owner what I could get an SPG and hose for at several sites on line. He wasn't pleased, but we have discussed the fact that he wants me to come to him and tell him what I can get stuff for elsewhere and see if he can match it, before I actually BUY elsewhere. So I went in.

They had an SPG, and it was competitive in price when you considered shipping.

But they took the one they had and calibrated it before they sold it to me, and it was reading high, and they wouldn't sell it.

This is why I buy from my LDS if their prices are within 20% of what I can get elsewhere (including shipping).

[scubatoys]

Gee... I could have "chimed in" a long time ago... but it's way too much fun to hear everyone's opinions!:D

It's really very simple... When I got into the Scubapro line, one of the top execs from Scubapro came out to my store and said while they don't allow internet sales now, they realize the world is changing... and if I wanted to carry the line for local sales, I'd be perfectly positioned for when they changed policies...

Well, they never got around to allowing authorized dealers to sell on the net... but interestingly enough, they never stopped the gray market. I've heard, "We're working on it... but it's just not that easy..." for years now. Somehow, however, you have not been able to buy any atomic regs on LP for years... They don't have any Aeris product to speak of... but SP... No problem.

SP sent out a notice that they are putting serial numbers on fins to help combat gray market sales.... Perhaps they haven't noticed that there are serial numbers on their regs and bc's and all those are readily available domestically or from overseas on the net...

Then to increase my level of disgust with the situation, I had several important individuals I have a lot of respect for in this industry, explain where a large portion of the flow of gray market SP goods came from... It's not that hard for a manufacturer to figure out.. buy a reg, track the serial number, cut off the dealer... Some has said it is due to some personal relationships and the sheer volume of dollars... this has not been done.

I hate double standards... not only are they not legal, I don't believe they are moral. I think everyone should have a level playing field. You are all aware of the MAP (minimum advertised price) policies that a lot of manufactures have. If you look at LP, you will see they have agreed to follow the MAP pricing on several manufactures, other manufacturers make sure they don't get product, but for some reason, a company with the resources of SC Johnson cannot track where they get goods and cut them off?? Give me a break...

So we have decided that continuing to knock our heads against the wall is a tad futile, and SP and I have parted ways. We are selling off our remaining stock, which as it was sold directly from SP to us, and was not trans-shipped through any 3rd party, it will all come with manufacturers warranty... and when it's gone... it's gone!

I have plenty of other products that I support, and support me such as Zeagle, Aeris, Oceanic, Sherwood, Tusa, Dive Rite, OMS, Atomic, Henderson, Mares, etc, etc, etc...

There... was it worth the wait?;)

[GreenDiverDown]

But they took the one they had and calibrated it before they sold it to me, and it was reading high, and they wouldn't sell it.


Lynne, something about this sounds a little weird to me.
Hmm... probably not a big deal... but there's no 'calibrating' a SPG. It's either within tolerance or not. Are you sure they checked it?



There... was it worth the wait?


... no surprise at all.

[Rick Inman]

Larry,

You are my hero - kicking SP to the curb. I'm printing out this thread for my LDS.

[Rinkopr]

We are all to blame for jobs going overseas.

We shop to find the lowest price on everything from Gas to Airline Tickets and even Scuba equipment. The companies that manufacturer these goods that we buy need to find ways to keep the price of their products low so consumers will continue to support their manufacturing facilities. To do this they use differing methods, but the highest cost to business is labor, and no labor is cheaper than that overseas. The companies also have another problem. We, the cheap consumer, are also stock holders and demand that they turn a big profit or we will sell and the stock will decrease in value. To make a big profit they cut costs in any and every area they can including labor. By keeping the cost down the American market will buy the product, and sales will continue.

It's a bad circle that we are in. Please do not blast me as being BIG COMPANY, as the internet has made many LDSs honest and those that were at 400% deserved the fall, but there are many shops that are well below MSRP and still get hosed for trying to make a decent profit.

At my LDS, a guys wife came in and bought $2000 worth of gear for his christmas. I don't know what he said to her, but she called in tears saying they had taken advantage of her. I gave the shop owner a list of the gear if purchased from LP, and they were $235 apart. I told the shop owner to let it go, but he offered fre Nitrox training, a free wetsuit, and a few other things.

I was glad I was at the store when he came in mid conversation about my listing my home. Here is the conversation...
"I would be glad to list you home for you, that's what I do".

"Oh thank you, but I am going to save myself the $21k fee and use the internet"

"You'll never sell your home that way, and the laws are to complicated for the average consumer to understand. Not only do I list your house, but I network with other realtors, use local listings, MLS, and have an agent at your home during any open house. It is also safer for your family using an agent to sell your house."

"I understand and appreciate the offer, but I could use the money I save from this and use it toward upgrades on our new home."

" The people that sell homes on the internet are usually selling property that is in bad shape and are hard to track after the sale."

"I'll let you sell the house if you are willing to do it for 2%, thats still $7k, and I am sure your costs will not exceed $1k."

"I can't stay in business if I sell for 2%. I have fixed costs like my office and support team that get a piece of the pie. Nor would it be fair to the rest of my clients if I took your home for less than the 6% fee."

"Well home team realty here advertises 3%, how do they stay in business?"

" They are a low cost agency, that provide virtually no service and I hear they don't always return calls to perspective buyers."

"Thanks again, but I think I will do it myself and save that money for other things."

"You'll regret not using a licensed realtor as we are always here for you in case there is a problem from the time you start to show your house, till closing. I don't think you understand the issues that can arise when selling your own home, but you'll learn that saving money is not always best in the long run and that is not enough for the trouble instore for you."

"You could be right, but how much should I save to make it worth it? You are back here complaining that you were taken advantage of with the price of your equipment and that will only save you $235. And to add to that your gear purchased from here comes with the full manufacturers warranty. How much do you think that is worth?"

"Well this is different, once I buy the gear the sale is over, your house may take 2 months to sell, and there is a lot that needs to be done. This shop will make plenty of money if the sell at the same price as LP."

At this point I gave up, as I know the LDS owner is just to nice, but I thought it was interesting how defensive he was about his own job, but thought that everyone else should make less....

Off my box now, and gosh i feel better.

[diveborg]

........So we have decided that continuing to knock our heads against the wall is a tad futile, and SP and I have parted ways. We are selling off our remaining stock, which as it was sold directly from SP to us, and was not trans-shipped through any 3rd party, it will all come with manufacturers warranty... and when it's gone... it's gone!

I have plenty of other products that I support, and support me such as Zeagle, Aeris, Oceanic, Sherwood, Tusa, Dive Rite, OMS, Atomic, Henderson, Mares, etc, etc, etc...

There... was it worth the wait?;)Well said. That is exactly the circumstances I thought when I first read this thread.

Scubatoys is my preferred provider for most of my scuba gear needs.

[Al Mialkovsky]

You won't get a factory warrantly buying scuba pro online no matter what lies an internet site spews up.

And you'll pay 200 bucks to change the battery in your smartcom, unless you got it from a shop where the change is free.

[oly5050user]

Have you reported this "counterfeit gear" to the appropriate companies and authorities?
gave the faulty parts to appropriate reps from the two companies..

[PerroneFord]

I have SP jetfins. That is the ONLY SP product I own, or will ever own unless they change their policies. I have voted with my feet, and my dollars.

I COMPLETELY disagree that SP's policys are out to protect dealers. That is bunk. SP's policies protect their bottom line and nothing more. THOUSANDS of dealers sell product and maintain sufficient margin to pay employess, and run a reputable business. All this without the ******* tactics. When you add to that the near impossibity for a person at home to service their SP regulators, or what appears to be increasing difficulty to even do mail-in service, it all adds up to a big fat NO SALE.

The Mk17 may be the best thing since sliced bread. But it won't grace my manifold. That spot is reserved for companies like Dive Rite, Zeagle, and others who try to gain market share by making better products, at fair prices, and servicing the customer. ScubaPro is about to learn that the global market will not support a monopoly. Too bad. And Aqua-Lung isn't far behind. Too bad Apeks had to go that direction.

[awap]

You won't get a factory warrantly buying scuba pro online no matter what lies an internet site spews up.

And you'll pay 200 bucks to change the battery in your smartcom, unless you got it from a shop where the change is free.

Your statement on the warrenty issue does not seem to agree with what SP says on its online site in its Q&A section.

"""I was told that my SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment does not come with a warranty if I purchase it through the mail or over the internet. Is this true?

SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment purchased from sources other than a SCUBAPRO UWATEC authorized dealer may not carry the specific warranty that the United States, US territories and Canada offers. This equipment is also not covered under the Free Preferred Parts Replacement Program or Batteries For Life Program. Authorized dealers are only allowed to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment over the counter, at their retail location. If you find a mail order or internet dealer selling SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment, you should contact us to determine if you are dealing with an authorized dealer.""""

[scubatoys]

There are some very interesting legal issues at play here, and I'm not an attorney, but half my family is, plus I have several more on retainer... So I will lay out the layman legalize version and I'm sure we have plenty of attorneys on the board that will give us their take... A manufactured product comes with a manufactures warranty from the company. A company can choose who they sell to. They can say the product carries a warranty to the original purchaser from the retailer, thus if shop A sells to Shop B who then sells to a customer, there is no warranty... But if a manufacturer sets up a dealer, and sells them product at a price that includes a warranty, and that dealer sells that product, even after the dealer agreement has ended between the parties - they cannot void the warranty on those products.

In fact, to avoid the restraint of trade laws, all the dealer agreements from all manufacturers state that you can do whatever you want with product after you have it..., the manufacturer is not setting price, distribution, etc... they just have the right to no longer ship to you if you don't follow their policy... Otherwise, they would have a serious fair trade investigation... And this came straight from an agent at the DOJ that I talked to...

So it might be accurate that most people selling their product on line got it somehow that violated SP policies... if they sold it to someone, that might not have a warranty, but for a store that bought the product through their normal channels, and as recently recieved product as 3 weeks ago, they cannot simply recind the warranty on that product. The price I paid for the product, included a warranty - it stays in tact.

So any attorneys that want to feel free to chime in and quote some cases, law, etc... that would be great... But based on my understanding, and the explanations I have gotten from several attorneys and the department of justice, the above should be pretty close to accurate.

[Mark Vlahos]

Larry,

It is unfortunate that your situation has come to this point. Do you have any idea how big or little a fish you were to ScubaPro? Perhaps they will wake up and take a more reasonable approach to the larger problems at play here, since the Ostrich thing isn't working out so well.

Mark Vlahos

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

You won't get a factory warrantly buying scuba pro online no matter what lies an internet site spews up.

Is this a jab at Larry? A not-so-subtle accusation that Larry is a liar when he says you can buy his remaining SP gear online and get the warranty? Because I don't think that stance will get you far here.

If Larry says you get the warranty if you buy SP stuff from him online, then you get the warranty. I don't doubt it for a second. ScubaToys is a great business, and I've never experienced anything that would make me think they "spew lies". For those of us hours away from an LDS, ScubaToys is the next best thing...heck the service I get from ScubaToys beats anything I have ever gotten from a brick and mortar dive shop.

Anyway, I sure hope I misunderstood your implication.

Gregg

[dherbman]

Do you understand what a "Factory warranty" is? If Larry claims he is giving a "Factory warranty" on SP he sells online (which he does not), then he would in fact be a liar.




If Larry says you get the warranty if you buy SP stuff from him online, then you get the warranty.
Anyway, I sure hope I misunderstood your implication.

Gregg

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

Do you understand what a "Factory warranty" is? If Larry claims he is giving a "Factory warranty" on SP he sells online (which he does not), then he would in fact be a liar.

No, I don't understand. Could you please reply in a more snotty tone or in some way make yourself out to be more of a jackass so that I can understand better?

[ShakaZulu]

Awesome, now if the rest of us divers support Larry, and not buy SP, then we could make a difference in the diving industry. I dive APEKS anyway......

[dherbman]

No, I don't understand. Could you please reply in a more snotty tone or in some way make yourself out to be more of a jackass so that I can understand better?
No, that's about as snotty as I get online.

"Factory" in this case was referring to the warranty Scubapro provides. Any authorized dealer of SP will honor that warranty.

Larry provides his own warranty. I'm not sure how that would work at my LDS for servicing. I suspect I may have to send the reg back to Larry for service, but don't know this to be fact.

[mdb]

Larry Dague, owner of www.scubatoys.com is a long time customer of ours. He is one of the smartest guys in the dive industry. He took a land locked Texas store to one of the largest single stores in the country in record time. He is a complete straight shooter who tells it like it is. He buys in large quantity, pays his bills immediately, provides great customer service, and is always available for a phone conversation or e-mail exchange. I only wish we had a few more dealers like Larry. You can take his word to the bank.

[awap]

No, that's about as snotty as I get online.

"Factory" in this case was referring to the warranty Scubapro provides. Any authorized dealer of SP will honor that warranty.

Larry provides his own warranty. I'm not sure how that would work at my LDS for servicing. I suspect I may have to send the reg back to Larry for service, but don't know this to be fact.

Scubatoys provides factory warrenties on all gear they sell. You may be confusing them with leisurepro.

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

Scubatoys provides factory warrenties on all gear they sell. You may be confusing them with leisurepro.

I think he's confused in a lot of ways...maybe the herb?

Larry provides factory warranties, not some ScubaToys warranty. You're definitely thinking of LeisurePro or...well, who knows what you're thinking. I thought Larry was very clear. You buy SP online from him and you get the SP warranty. ScubaToys is very clear that they are authorized dealers of everything they sell. I doubt they will change that, since they have built a business based on honesty, customer service and reliability, unlike the LeisurePros of the world.

So, now you have called one of the more valued members of this board and the dive community a liar. I think maybe you should quit while you're ahead, lest your ignorance make you look even more foolish.

[dherbman]

Scubatoys provides factory warrenties on all gear they sell. You may be confusing them with leisurepro.

Entirely possible, it would not be the first time. My confusion stems from my interpretation of this blip from the SP site:


I was told that my SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment does not come with a warranty if I purchase it through the mail or over the internet. Is this true?

SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment purchased from sources other than a SCUBAPRO UWATEC authorized dealer may not carry the specific warranty that the United States, US territories and Canada offers. This equipment is also not covered under the Free Preferred Parts Replacement Program or Batteries For Life Program. Authorized dealers are only allowed to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment over the counter, at their retail location. If you find a mail order or internet dealer selling SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment, you should contact us to determine if you are dealing with an authorized dealer.

If you have already purchased from a source other than an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer, we would strongly recommend that you take your equipment to an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer to have it inspected to be sure that it is in operating condition and that it is performing to correct specifications. We would also advise you to follow the SCUBAPRO UWATEC recommended service and maintenance guidelines for your product. Some retailers will offer their own warranties on our product. You may wish to contact the source from which you obtained your product to see what recourse you have concerning warranty issues.

and Larrys post:


It's really very simple... When I got into the Scubapro line, one of the top execs from Scubapro came out to my store and said while they don't allow internet sales now, they realize the world is changing... and if I wanted to carry the line for local sales, I'd be perfectly positioned for when they changed policies...

Well, they never got around to allowing authorized dealers to sell on the net... but interestingly enough, they never stopped the gray market. I've heard, "We're working on it... but it's just not that easy..." for years now. Somehow, however, you have not been able to buy any atomic regs on LP for years... They don't have any Aeris product to speak of... but SP... No problem.

[ScottZeagle]

Larry Dague, owner of www.scubatoys.com is a long time customer of ours. He is one of the smartest guys in the dive industry. He took a land locked Texas store to one of the largest single stores in the country in record time. He is a complete straight shooter who tells it like it is. He buys in large quantity, pays his bills immediately, provides great customer service, and is always available for a phone conversation or e-mail exchange. I only wish we had a few more dealers like Larry. You can take his word to the bank.

Michael, I agree with you 110%.

Scott

[ClevelandDiver]

dherbman,

The answer is, as Larry stated, that he does offer the factory warranty on his REMAINING stock of scubapro equipment (which he bought directly from scubapro)

He won't be able to buy anymore scubapro equipment, but they have to honor the warranty on the stuff he bought directly from him, regardless of what their website claims.

If in the future he goes the LP way and buys from someone other than the manufacturer, he can not offer a scubapro manufacturers warranty.

[mike_s]

I wonder how much ScubaPro stuff a year he (Scubatoys) sold?

how much of an impact of loosing a volume dealer will impact ScubaPro?


BTW..> you can't even buy ScubaPro in my area. Our local ScubaPro shop
went out of business this summer. They might as well not been a dealer
anyway, because they never stocked anything, sold everything at list price,
and what they have in stock, was several 'years old' stock anyway.

[DA Aquamaster]

Yes, it's pretty clear, Larry can sell his remaining inventory at whatever price he wants and it will be covered under the normal SP warranty, SP just won't ship him more stuff.

Also, there is no contradiction or conspiracy in the SP online/warranty policy, it just was not written to cover what happens when an SP dealer liquidates stock.

Larry's explanation of the lack of validity of the claims from companies that state they cannot control internet sells is also very compelling. The situation really is not any different now than it was 25 years ago with mail order sales. If you have a serial number, a company should be able to determine when it was made and what dealer it was shipped to. If that dealer cannot explain how it legitimately ended up being sold by Leisure Pro, etc, then they should lose their dealership for that brand.

I do agree with Larry that companies really cannot have it both ways - they either need to re-write agreements to allow LDS's to compete with on-line retailers or they need to act responsibly and ensure no equipment makes it to on-line retailers. It's just a matter of buying a few regulators and busting the dealers they were originally shipped to.

The basic facts are that all dive equipment leaves a production plant and is shipped somewhere by the compnay at some point and that the dive equipment company makes their normal amount on the sale to the dealer regardless of whether it ends up sold on the grey market or not. An unwillingness to stop the grey market trade and in the process lose those on-line sales, does suggest that profit made by those companies are more important than stopping aledgedly unwanted on-line sales.


Awesome, now if the rest of us divers support Larry, and not buy SP, then we could make a difference in the diving industry. I dive APEKS anyway......As for not buying Scubapro equipment to "support" Larry, that is poorly thought out and implies a harm that is not present. Larry made his own decisions regarding Scubapro and their dealer agreement and whether he wanted to abide by it. There were no unexpected surprises anywhere. If everyone got what they wanted/deserved/agreed from the parting of the ways, then what is the issue?

Given that Apeks also restricts on-line sales, suggesting diving an Apeks reg is some how more "supportive" makes zero sense.

[scubatoys]

I'd like to say thanks to Scott and Michael for their support here... but really, I don't care what you two guys think! ;) You're just guys I pay... It means a lot more the support for the guys who send me money! So to everyone who has gone to bat for my character... a deep gratitude...

And to those that are taking the other side... Keep believing your reps and the company line that it is just not possible to figure out where approximately 10 million dollars worth of equipment per year is being funneled off and sold on the net gray market. But now that we have some serial numbers on fins... well, now they can do something about it.

Instead of directing your anger at me, perhaps you should look a little deeper at the economic picture and how those policies affect your bottom line. If you want to sell some of Michaels bio fins - there is a map price that we adhere to, as does LP. If you want to sell an Aeris computer, there is a map I adhere to, and LP does not have them in stock... can't get them... But if one of your customers wants one an Apeks, Suunto, SP, or Uwatec product, the companies have tied the hands of the legit dealers and helped, either directly or indirectly to set up a world wide gray market that affects your bottom line way more than I ever will.

[Al Mialkovsky]

No, I don't understand. Could you please reply in a more snotty tone or in some way make yourself out to be more of a jackass so that I can understand better?
Yeah, dave's a jackass :)

:05:

[D_B]

I've said it before ... With all the help, straight forward answers, repetedly going out of his way to help people, here and at his store, I would not hesitate to purchase any and all of my gear from Larry.

DB

[dherbman]

AL: Yeah, dave's a jackass

I'm also wrong......

Larry DOES offer a "Factory Warrantee" for SP gear bought online. It is against SP policy, but if it came to court, they would have to honor the warantee.


Is that correct?

I've no doubt that Larry is a great guy, honest, an assett to this community and all the other great things people have written about him. None of this has anything to do with the topic though. EXCEPT....... how he gets around the policy SP has regarding online sales.

I've got an attorney in my family too, but would prefer not having to use her services to have my reg warranty honored. Would that happen? Probably not, but if SP makes it an issue what are my options?

[Al Mialkovsky]

I've got an attorney in my family too, but would prefer not having to use her services to have my reg warranty honored. She's my favorite attorney too but I wouldn't want her mad at me.

Well I wonder if scubatoys can manage to get that smartcom battery changed when it takes a dump in a couple of years? That would be an expensive screwup if they couldn't.

[garyfotodiver]

Gee... I could have "chimed in" a long time ago... but it's way too much fun to hear everyone's opinions!:D

There... was it worth the wait?;)

Yes. Thank you Larry.

I have not bought anything from ScubaToys, mainly because I have several reliable sources. But if they dry up...



ScubaToys is first on the list.

[WarmWaterDiver]

Larry,

Are you also perchance selling any Scubapro regulator rebuild kits / parts? This change in your product line offerings has sunk my plan to ship you my pre-owned Scubapro regs for service next time.

If y'all still service equipment with the Scubapro trained technicians who will likely continue in your employ, at least until your stock of rebuild kits runs out, then maybe I have a chance.

I absolutely will not take my gear to the same LDS in my new area next service time!

[scubatoys]

She's my favorite attorney too but I wouldn't want her mad at me.

Well I wonder if scubatoys can manage to get that smartcom battery changed when it takes a dump in a couple of years? That would be an expensive screwup if they couldn't.

Al... I'm feeling a bit of tension... anomosity. Relax.. maybe go for a dive, and concentrate on your business instead of others, and perhaps your life will become more cheerful.

[Al Mialkovsky]

Larry my business is the students I train. I have already seen many of them make internet purchases and get screwed in the process.

But please, continue on as you have :)

[awap]

Larry my business is the students I train. I have already seen many of them make internet purchases and get screwed in the process.

But please, continue on as you have :)

Yeah, it must be really tough. You go through all that work to train them and set them up for their scuba future and somebody else gets to screw them when they make that first purchase. As long as you insist that full MSRP is the only way to do business, I don't think the problem is going anywhere until you do. Maybe you need to train them better.:10:

[awap]

I'm also wrong......

Larry DOES offer a "Factory Warrantee" for SP gear bought online. It is against SP policy, but if it came to court, they would have to honor the warantee.

EXCEPT....... how he gets around the policy SP has regarding online sales.


My understanding is that he is not getting "around" the SP policy regarding internet sales. I believe there policy is that if an authorized dealer participates in such sales, SP will no longer supply him. In this case, it sounds like Larry let them know he wasn't interested in any more of there product. I wonder if SP asked to buy back his remaining stock?

Many shops that decide to terminate their SP dealership make one last big order which they can then sell to Leisurepro to recover their initial cost of obtaining the SP dealership. Somehow, I suspect Larry didn't do that.

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

Larry my business is the students I train. I have already seen many of them make internet purchases and get screwed in the process.


You left out the "from LeisurePro"...I kind of doubt any of your students has been screwed by ScubaToys.

You Oregon guys sure do throw around a lot of thinly veiled accusations regarding people getting screwed by Internet sales, Internet vendors being liars, etc. It sure seems like you have a dog in this fight, Al...do you have some interest in people buying from an LDS? You seem to take it pretty personally...

Seriously, do some of the things Oregonians do to relax like go log a forest or come down here and drive badly...you'll feel better ;)

[dherbman]

5,4,3..........

[Al Mialkovsky]

.

Seriously, do some of the things Oregonians do to relax like go log a forest or come down here and drive badly...you'll feel better ;)

If by driving badly you mean waving people ahead and giving up the right of way I did try that down there a few times and it really didn't work out well for me. But what do you expect in the road rage national captial anway.

Hey why not come up here and pay way too much for my house? I know that's what you guys like to do ;)

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

Hey why not come up here and pay way too much for my house? I know that's what you guys like to do ;)

LOL. Making fun of Californians buying into Oregon...like shooting fish in a barrel! ;)

Cheers! :D

[DivesWithTurtles]

Boy, I hate to interrupt the CA vs. OR thing (I'm enjoying that), but...

Do y'all (FL, eh?) think there may be some extra economic advantage to ScubaPro, et. al., by supporting the gray-market. They get their sales and they don't have the expense of follow on support from the manufacturer (parts kits, upgrades, recalls, etc.) which they do through their authorized outlets. It's that much more incentive to not crack down on the gray-market.

(BTW, good for you, Larry! Now, do you think that maybe when you've sold out the existing SP stock you can sign a new dealer agreement with them, get more stock, then blow them off again? It could be profitable for you and for them, and a good deal for us consumers.)

[OE2X]

O.K. Boys lets keep it civil.

A few of you have crossed the line and this thread is begging to be sent down the chute of oblivion. Don't make me do it.

Also a couple of you are just asking for a time out. I would prefer not to have to excercise my moderators muscles, so I hope this warning is taken to heart.

[garyfotodiver]

Boy, I hate to interrupt the CA vs. OR thing (I'm enjoying that), but...

Do y'all (FL, eh?) think there may be some extra economic advantage to ScubaPro, et. al., by supporting the gray-market. They get their sales and they don't have the expense of follow on support from the manufacturer (parts kits, upgrades, recalls, etc.) which they do through their authorized outlets. It's that much more incentive to not crack down on the gray-market.

(BTW, good for you, Larry! Now, do you think that maybe when you've sold out the existing SP stock you can sign a new dealer agreement with them, get more stock, then blow them off again? It could be profitable for you and for them, and a good deal for us consumers.)

Why is it that some of these disgustings continually re-invent the wheel? This matter of where and how some merchants obtain their goods has been typed almost to death on this Board.

Enuf, already!

[BigWhiteSquare]

Why is it that some of these disgustings continually re-invent the wheel? This matter of where and how some merchants obtain their goods has been typed almost to death on this Board.

Enuf, already!

Sounded like a fair enough question to me. Why the big attitude? Did reading DivesWithTurtle's post take up some of your valuable time that you might have otherwise used to cure cancer or solve world hunger?

In answer to your question DivesWithTurtle, I think you hit on the exact problem. For all their sanctimonious anouncements, Scubapro makes a lot of money from the gray market, and Larry's point bears it out very well. The other companies that are against internet sales, like Aqualung and Atomic, have done a decent job of keeping their gear off the 'net. That tells me it can be done, if the company in question really wants to do it. I'd be interested to know just how much, percentage wise, Scubapro makes from gear sold through resellers that aren't "official" dealers.

___

[Phil Mintz]

Michael, I agree with you 110%.

Scott

I also agree with both Scott and Michael. I also agree with Larry even though he cares less about what we say. The bottom line is he is succesful due to is knowledge, honesty and customer service. He is also smart in that he trys to build good relations with his suppliers. By doing so it helps him in supporting his customers.

Phil

[scubapro50]

True LeisurePro does sell alot of "Gray Market" equipment and it is very hard for the scuba companies to track their merchandise. On another thread "Zeagle help needed" a diver was having problems with a Zeagle BC purchased from LeisurePro and Scott Zeagle did offer help with fixing the problem. When Scott was asked if he could track down the source doing the selling to LeisiurePro he said it would take too much time and effort to do this.

[Hoosier]

Scubapro has had the free parts thing since long before there was an internet and for at least the last 20 years that I have been diivng and buying SP regs. It's a good thing for all involved, and I don't see the point in using it to take pot shots at them.

SP is also one of only 2 or 3 companies that actually support their regulators for decades - including over 90% of their long since discontinued models. Personally, I'd hate to lose that or lose the wide spread local dealer network they have established just to save a few bucks on the occasional internet purchase. Supporting your local dive shop with an extra $100 or so per regulator is well worth the money in the long run, if you plan to stay in this sport.


I respect your career as a ScubaPro technician and I know you have a willingness to have your own LDS in the future. The current market trend isn’t different story with what you are thinking about in the perspective of normal customers. No matter when SP launched the “Free part” promotion, it is obvious fact that SP has tried to secure and protect US market compared to EU market. They have already known how EU market has been going. It is still almost half price to get the exact same regulation from Diveinn. Otherwise, why do you think SP offers that promotion, particularly only in North America. Do you know that MK25/S600 cost about $1000 in some Asian market without having any free part promotion? Before having internet, it was also possible option to get any scuba equipment from EU. You don’t think there was no market or sellers for this. For example, I could buy any SONY merchandizes that was only made in Japan, not made in Mexico in US before having internet. Yes, there was a market only for the made-in-Japan products. If you had been to any competitive market in
other US states, such as NY or CA, it isn’t a secret you can get SP product
at LP or similar price with a full free part and warranty. Of course, “Money Talks
over there” Sure, it is a totally different story in the monopoly market such as any mid-west states where I am. But, who is leading the market and who is selling more SP product between the LDS from competitive market and LDS from monopoly market?

You mentioned about the willingness to pay (WTP). Everyone has a totally
different WTP. I am not sure how many divers have the same WTP like you
have. If I have to pay $100 more per regulator to stay in this sport, I had
better buy other brand to keep enjoying. Don’t worry that this sport is never disappeared. “The show must go on” There are always other persons or parties who want to get into this business as long as the money flows.

Al Mialkovsky,

I have seen your flames so many times about this subject. I understand your position as a LDS or instructor in the small monopoly market, but all things is the fact that is being happened in the scuba industry. As long as SP doesn’t change their policy, the gray market is never gone. If it is an easy task to get rid of gray market, we have already solved the drug problem over the world. I can promise we will see more gray market products not even from EU and LP, but from Asia, particularly from China in the future.
So, there is no reason to blame the customers who want to get the better price and service without being threaten by some stupid LDS owners.


As for Scubatoys, I have already thrown a few grand dollars to Larry at Scubatoys from the Mid-west. What I want from him is nothing more or less than better price and service. Even, I scheduled my flight route to transit the connection at Dallas airport instead of Chicago this holiday. Yes, I plan to drop by his store to spend more money (Larry, I still need a direction how to get to your store from the airport). I was also told that Larry has many customers like me. If any LDS owners read this thread, have you ever had this kind of customers in your shop?

[scubatoys]

I also agree with both Scott and Michael. I also agree with Larry even though he cares less about what we say. The bottom line is he is succesful due to is knowledge, honesty and customer service. He is also smart in that he trys to build good relations with his suppliers. By doing so it helps him in supporting his customers.

Phil

Thanks Phil... Actually I do care what you guys say. You, Scott, Michael, and a hand full of others that don't participate out on the board here... Your open and honest way of doing business is refreshing... It's nice to talk to someone who will give an answer and not bury you in psychobabble business speak: "Well the gray market is an issue that we are attempting to address by developing a multi faceted strategy that will consider the aspects of the .... blah, blah..."

And hoosier... you said if taking out the gray market was easy, we would have solved the world drug problem.... Hate to say it, but the gray market is a lot easier to take out. With drugs, you can have them manufactured anywhere, and there is no way to trace them. But with scuba gear, you can follow a reg that is make in it's factory, it gets a serial number as soon as it is born... It is a simple task to buy it from a non-authorized dealer, see who you originally sold it to, and terminate that dealer... end of story. Look at Aeris or Atomic on LP.

And Al, really, your anger toward me is misdirected. I assume you work at or own a shop, and they sell SP products... So lets take a reg that retails for $500. According to SP policy, you should advertise and sell it for $450. Would it hurt your sales to have Scubatoys and a lot of other legit dealers showing that reg for $450 on our sites, while you would have a decent profit margin being able to match our price, plus tell the customer you'd toss in a discount on their next class, or a free air fill.

That would make your SP sales much better... but instead, you have gray market sales, both domestically and abroad, that because they are buying better that your shop, and don't care about maintaining as large a margin... they'll sell it for $325.

How many times have you seen on this board, "If my lds can be withing 10-15% of the net I'll buy from them... but if it's hundreds...."

Do you not realize that if a company has products on gray market sites, it is not that they can't stop it.... Ask any of the major manufacturers that participate here... it is easy to stop any serial numbered product... if you choose to... and don't mind giving up the large sales.

I choose to support the companies that support fair trade... and don't funnel goods to gray market sources while claiming they don't - or just turn a blind eye to the order of all this product to a particular store.. that could never sell that much from their location. If they have a MAP policy, they make everyone play the same game... that's all I ask. Al, if you want to support companies that have a different agenda, don't get upset when sales go to gray market shops. And if we are competing on even pricing ground - and your customer buys from me... then you don't have to wonder about your pricing, you have to wonder about your knowledge of the product and your customer service.

[dirthead]

As for Scubatoys, I have already thrown a few grand dollars to Larry at Scubatoys from the Mid-west. What I want from him is nothing more or less than better price and service. Even, I scheduled my flight route to transit the connection at Dallas airport instead of Chicago this holiday. Yes, I plan to drop by his store to spend more money (Larry, I still need a direction how to get to your store from the airport).

Hoosier,

I did the same thing about a month ago. Here are directions from DFW to Scubatoys.

Take North exit from DFW and follow SR 121 to I-635 East. Go East on I-635 to I-35. Go North on I-35 and take the Crosby exit. Scubatoys will be on your right. Seems like it took about 15 minutes to get from DFW to Scubatoys with light traffic.

[scubatoys]

Hoosier,

I did the same thing about a month ago. Here are directions from DFW to Scubatoys.

Take North exit from DFW and follow SR 121 to I-635 East. Go East on I-635 to I-35. Go North on I-35 and take the Crosby exit. Scubatoys will be on your right. Seems like it took about 15 minutes to get from DFW to Scubatoys with light traffic.

Are you going to have a rental car.. or cabbing it? Tell you what... Anyone who needs to cab it over... call me as soon as your wheels touch, and I'll send someone out to the airport to get you. Now don't plan on the suit, stretch limo, and the little cardboard sign with your name on it... but if a pickup truck with a couple tanks rolling around the bed, and an assortment of McDonalds and Wendy's bags and spilled french fries works... We'll come get ya'.

[jsmharley]

Are you going to have a rental car.. or cabbing it? Tell you what... Anyone who needs to cab it over... call me as soon as your wheels touch, and I'll send someone out to the airport to get you. Now don't plan on the suit, stretch limo, and the little cardboard sign with your name on it... but if a pickup truck with a couple tanks rolling around the bed, and an assortment of McDonalds and Wendy's bags and spilled french fries works... We'll come get ya'.


How I wish I had known this in October. I had a 4 hour layover in DFW on my way home to Virginia Beach from Tulsa. You better believe I'll be visiting you the next time I am in the area Larry. As a new diver it is very awesome to see a LDS owner stand up for his morals. If only more would do it, then we all could afford that sweet dive vacation every year.....

[Al Mialkovsky]

So, there is no reason to blame the customers who want to get the better price and service without being threaten by some stupid LDS owners

Threatened? You know dive shops that threaten customers? The shop I instruct for has been around much longer than the internet dive shops. I think they have good reason to be proud of the service they offer and after all, many times the real bottom line is more than the price isn't it?

I've seen many many of our customers get screwed by online shops.


And Al, really, your anger toward me is misdirected.
I'm not in the least angry with you Larry. The only time I feel I've been even a little bit angry in regards to the net is those divers who come in, and there aren't very many, try things on and then buy from the net. Some have wasted a lot of our time at the shop but we expect that.

In regards to the net in all honesty in many ways it's helped us as so many times that gray market discount blows up in the divers face and they'll come into our shop with firm resolve to never again shop online.

The shop I instruct for has survived and in the past year more than doubled it's sales while never selling more than 10% off msrp. We do offer services that online sellers can never offer and we do point that out. There are other shops in the area that carried "fair market" items and tried to compete with you online guys and they're gone, outta business.

So thanks all my internet business advisors for your business advice but we aren't interested in pushing your fair market items :) That would put us in a race to the bottom and that's just stupid.

Oh and boxing up a complete dive package and returning it to Leisurepro recently so a customer could purchase from us did put a smile on my face :)

Larry we do have a customer who has purchased items from you and he likes you a lot. He thinks you're a fair guy and great about your return policies.

We didn't try to match online tank prices and he recently purchased a couple of steel tanks from us which is nice, helps pay the rent and even helps keep in business the only dive shop in the area so he'll be able to get those tanks filled for years to come, as long as we stay open :)

[awap]

But with scuba gear, you can follow a reg that is make in it's factory, it gets a serial number as soon as it is born... It is a simple task to buy it from a non-authorized dealer, see who you originally sold it to, and terminate that dealer... end of story. Look at Aeris or Atomic on LP.

I really believe if it were easy, Scubapro and Aqua Lung would have shut them down. But I suspect that the laws in some countries would not allow a mfgr to dictate to dealers how, to whom and for how much they can sell the goods they have purchased. And that protection probably leaves the Mfgr with some legal liability if the mfgr terminates their agreement without due cause.

While Scubapro may have fired one of it primary European distributors, the shops are not SP employees (same as US) and may not be so easily delt with (unlike the US LDS). It appeared to me that episode actually caused an intertuption in SP regs at Leisurepro. Obviously they must have rather diverse sources of supply as LP seems to be back in the SP business.

As much as SP might like to protect its US LDSs, they also don't want to lose major European markets and perhaps be subject to fiscal liability to boot.

But there are solutions and you have found one of them.

Just for grins, I was looking at the European dealers for Atomic and Aeris. They are pretty short lists.

[PerroneFord]

Ok,

Maybe Larry, or someone else can explain something to me. Because I am genuinely not getting something here.

1. SP manufactures a regulator with a serial number
2. A retail outlet places an order with SP for regulators and that one gets sent out.
3. SP recieves money for said regulator(s), and their cost is covered with due profit.
4. Retailer then sells said regulator for $10 without advertising that price.

From this perspective, SP has not lost a dime. Only the retailer has lost money. What is the incentive for ScubaPro to cut this retailer off? Financially, he has satisfied his obligation to SP.

It appears that other retailers would be very upset because they would have a very hard time selling their SP regulators while someone else sells them far cheaper. So retailers ask the company to set minimum pricing to "protect" them from free market economics. SP agrees and then charges authorized shops $10k for this "service".

So Scenario 1-3 are repeated. but this time, an unauthorized dealer has gotten the regulators. Again SP has their money for the product, but this time, has not collected $10k for the licensing fee. Unauthorized retailer sells the regulator for the MAP price which still grossly undercuts authorized dealers. So now there are two squabbles. SP has just lost $10k, and the authorized retailers are being undercut. From SP's perspective, they seemingly have to weigh whether it's worth tracking down these folks and cutting them off because they didn't get $10k from them, or if they allow it to happen because they are getting $100k in orders. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how that is gonna go. So the retailers complain that they have paid to NOT be subjected to free market, and yet still are because grey market sales are still happening.

One way or the other, SP is making their money. That good doesn't leave their warehouse unlesss they recieve payment. And it's the retailers who are left to bear the brunt. The customer just wants a regulator. Maybe one with a SP name on it. Many wonder why it has to cost 20% more than other similar regulators. Some, like me, don't really give a flip who's name is on it if it works well. Others pay the premium. And still others want the name at a bargain price so they find LP, or DiveINN, or others.

This all seems predicated on 1 fundamental thing. SP dealers want SP to protect them from the free market. This artificial barrier seems to be the crux of all that is wrong. Thousands of companies deal every day in goods and services with free market. Why can't retailers and SP/AL live under these conditions? Why the price controls? How does this help the customer, and frankly, how does it help the company?

Again, I am not bashing anyone here. I, as Joe consumer, am trying to understand the dynamics in play.

[paulwall]

Well I wonder if scubatoys can manage to get that smartcom battery changed when it takes a dump in a couple of years? That would be an expensive screwup if they couldn't.

Who the hell talks a student into buying a computer that has to be sent back to the factory to have a battery changed? OH, right. The LDS.

Anyway, I've met Larry and his staff. I even took a class with him (now that was an experience!). I'd trust him to get the job done before 75% of any of the LDS's I've encountered. If push came to shove, I'd send it back to the manufacturer, or sell it on ebay (One Smartcom - hardly used, needs battery).

[Dan Gibson]

Well, it's not like this is really an inconvenience since you will probably get home sooner going through Dallas with a long layover. Going through Chicago really bites. If it sprinkles they shut that place down ;)



Even, I scheduled my flight route to transit the connection at Dallas airport instead of Chicago this holiday.

[diveborg]

You Oregon guys sure do throw around a lot of thinly veiled accusations regarding people getting screwed by Internet sales, Internet vendors being liars, etc. Hey now, don't be lumping us all in the same pile. Just because ONE Oregonian states an opinion, doesn't mean we ALL have the same opinion. Gross generalizations like that will only weaken any point you might try to make.

I just bought a Bare wetsuit from scubatoys. The first try didn't fit. I called them and they sent me another suit to try on, no charge to my credit card, no charge to ship the second one. Trusted me to send the first suit back to the at the same time. The whole transaction happened quickly and I am very satisfied.

So there....

[PADI Knight]

Now that's customer service!!!

[dherbman]

Funny, but most Oregonians are from California. Whatever......




This letter specifically addresses Leisure Pro, New York but covers any internet sales.





Thank you for considering SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment.

Please be aware that Leisure Pro, New York is not, nor has ever been, an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer.



Leisure Pro obtains our products through “gray-market” sources and not from our factory. We have no way of assuring the ultimate consumer that any item purchased via this source has not been tampered with or modified. Nor can we assume that our product has been properly tested and inspected. As such, SCUBAPRO UWATEC does not extend any warranties on its products purchased from Leisure Pro or any other "unauthorized” dealer.



SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order. We maintain a minimum pricing policy that our authorized dealers adhere to. Although some of our dealers advertise our equipment, once again they are not authorized to make direct sales through the internet, but rather, authorized dealers are only authorized to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA equipment over the counter at their retail location.



All online companies that sell and make direct purchases of our product, like LeisurePro are not an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer and SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment obtained through channels other than SCUBAPRO UWATEC Authorized Dealers does not carry the SCUBAPRO UWATEC Limited Lifetime/Limited Warranty. If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided.





If you still decide to purchased SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment from anywhere other than an Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Dealership, we recommend that it be inspected by an Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Repair Center to be sure that it is operating and performing to SCUBAPRO UWATEC specifications



LeisurePro may offer their own warranty on the equipment that you are considering, however, LeisurePro, like many other online companies that sell our product, has not been trained by SCUBAPRO UWATEC nor is certified to perform maintenance on SCUBAPRO UWATEC or UWATEC equipment.





You can find an authorized dealer in your area at http://www.scubapro.com/dealers/usdealerlocator/usdealerlocator.asp?group=SCUBAPRO&NewSearch=1

Please feel free to contact us should you have further queries regarding this matter.





Best regards,



Patty Savinski

SCUBAPRO

Product Registration



Like I said, I'm not making any statement for or against ANYTHING. I am only seeking to understand and clarify the issue of warranty.

[Al Mialkovsky]

Morning David. Do not seek understanding, there is none :)

[dherbman]

Not true Al, I do understand (finally). That is really all that matters and all I can really hope for.

[Al Mialkovsky]

Is it truely understanding or the illusion of understanding? ;)

Oh I'd invite you to the checkout dives this weekend but you have something disgusting planned right?

I'm at the shop, on vicodin, nursing a sore back. This getting old thing just hasn't worked out as well as I hoped it would :)

[awap]

Like I said, I'm not making any statement for or against ANYTHING. I am only seeking to understand and clarify the issue of warranty.

I do see the disconnect between this letter and related statements on the SP website. The source of my (our) confusion is fairly clear. I'm not sure what the source of SP's confusion is. If I have time, I will contact them about the ST sale and see what they say.

[garyfotodiver]

Funny, but most Oregonians are from California. Whatever......

Like I said, I'm not making any statement for or against ANYTHING. I am only seeking to understand and clarify the issue of warranty.

As far as the long letter from a Scubapro person that was posted, there is no assurance that merchandise sold by a manufacturer to an authorized dealer won't be tampered with or otherwise not exactly as the manufacturer intended. Many strange and interesting things can happen during shipping. A concientious dealer might bench-test the gear, but that still is not 100%.

When I first learned to dive, I had another issue; the dive shop owner pushed the Scubapro/Bailey Suit merchandise, so he "modified" other brands of equipment he sold and then, after showing the clear superiority of his chosen brand, refused to honor the warranties of the other brands of equipment he sold. That is GTTD, Guaranteed To The Door.

Just for the record, I am a Quality Assurance professional, specialing in pharmaceuticals. Transportation-damaged merchandise happens more often than one might expect.



Perhaps I should change my handle to "Garydrugdealer"?

[ProfessorAronnax]

Good point!

Rap

[dherbman]

The letter (A reply to an inquiry I made) and their web site seem pretty clear to me. Key lines:



SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order.

Although some of our dealers advertise our equipment, once again they are not authorized to make direct sales through the internet, but rather, authorized dealers are only authorized to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA equipment over the counter at their retail location.

If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided.



I do see the disconnect between this letter and related statements on the SP website. The source of my (our) confusion is fairly clear. I'm not sure what the source of SP's confusion is. If I have time, I will contact them about the ST sale and see what they say.


Al, you should do check-outs in Maui, I'd love to join you.

[rmannix]

this is a KEY line too:

"SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order. We maintain a minimum pricing policy that our authorized dealers adhere to."

Isn't this known as "price fixing"? Should be up to the seller how much markup they need to both draw business and survive.
Be happy SP doesn't make cars.

[PerroneFord]

this is a KEY line too:

Isn't this known as "price fixing"? Should be up to the seller how much markup they need to both draw business and survive.
Be happy SP doesn't make cars.

It seems strange until you realize the sellers pay tens of thousands of dollars for SP to fix those prices. I have to hand it to them. They've figured out how to get OTHER people to PAY them to use monopoly practices. Even the Bell Telephone group and Standard Oil couldn't get this done.

[xiSkiGuy]

SP agrees and then charges authorized shops $10k for this "service".


It seems strange until you realize the sellers pay tens of thousands of dollars for SP to fix those prices. I have to hand it to them. They've figured out how to get OTHER people to PAY them to use monopoly practices. Even the Bell Telephone group and Standard Oil couldn't get this done.Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here PerroneFord, but are you under the impression that SP dealers pay $10k for the privilege to be dealers? SP has high dollar opening orders, but the dealers do get products in exchange for their money.

[dherbman]

Could you please reply in a more snotty tone or in some way make yourself out to be more of a jackass so that I can understand better?


I think he's confused in a lot of ways...maybe the herb?



So, now you have called one of the more valued members of this board and the dive community a liar. I think maybe you should quit while you're ahead, lest your ignorance make you look even more foolish.



You Oregon guys sure do throw around a lot of thinly veiled accusations regarding people getting screwed by Internet sales, Internet vendors being liars, etc.



Seriously, do some of the things Oregonians do to relax like go log a forest or come down here and drive badly...you'll feel better




hu·mu·hu·mu·nu·ku·nu·ku·a·pu·a·a (hū'mū-hū'mū-nū'kū-nū'kū-ä'pū-ä'ä') pronunciation
n., pl. humuhumunukunukuapuaa or -as.

Either of two triggerfishes, Rhinecanthus aculeatus or R. rectangulus, native to the outer reefs of Hawaii, the latter having a broad black band on the side and a black triangle at the beginning of the tail.


LOL. Making fun of Californians buying into Oregon...like shooting fish in a barrel!


Funny you should put it like that ;)

[PerroneFord]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here PerroneFord, but are you under the impression that SP dealers pay $10k for the privilege to be dealers? SP has high dollar opening orders, but the dealers do get products in exchange for their money.

Ah yes... that's right. You make a HUGE first order, and you can get to be a dealer. I believe AquaLung is the same. Not sure why I was thinking it was merely a franchise fee. Do they have to do this every year or just for their opening order?

Thanks.

[xiSkiGuy]

Opening order minimums are pretty common in retail (Once upon a time, I managed a ski/outdoor store). It is also not that unusual in retail for a company that perceives that it is a little more popular than the rest to start requiring large opening orders or higher and higher volume levels to get max discount. Another popular "program" in the ski/outdoor industry is to require that you order a certain number of items in each of their product "categories": clothing, hardgoods, footwear, baselayers, ect.

[rmannix]

The LDS I worked thru decided to get into skiing, rolling ski deck and all. (in Austin TX)
Went out of business pretty quick after that.

[Al Mialkovsky]

Remember Dave, CA, where road rage was invented :)

[Swan1172]

I have been watching this thread for a while now, and finally decided to reply. From what I can see, SP has taken an interesting position (or lack of) regarding internet sales. Their official policy states that do not authorize online or mail order sales, but have done nothing to really stop the gray market problem. If they really wanted to stop gray market sales through online and mail order outlets, they could and it would be as easy as ordering one of their serial-numbered products from LeisurePro and tracking back to the company that SP orginally shipped the product. From what Larry says, it sounds like Aeris has taken this approach and has dried-up the supply of their products to LeisurePro.

I am a fan of ScubaPro and wish I could get their products online. However, I understand and respect their logic regarding online sales. I fail to understand why they are not more proactive in helping to solve the gray market problem, instead of using strong-arm tactics with regard to dealers like Larry.

[PerroneFord]

I fail to understand why they are not more proactive in helping to solve the gray market problem, instead of using strong-arm tactics with regard to dealers like Larry.

Really?

Because it makes them money. It's not hard to grasp. SP nets the same amount of money from a LP sale it does from a ScubaToys sale or a LDS sale. SP apparently doesn't see the loss of a retailer like Larry as a significant issue. This is how monopoly's act. As quickly as Larry gets out of the SP business, someone else will be happy to step in to keep the SP faithful customer happy.

[ProfessorAronnax]

There will always be a gray market and there will always be gray market customers. Even though some manufacturers (e.g. SP) don't understand it yet, customers usually shop online for value-I do it all the time. If a customer's priority is absloute low price with acceptable risk, no frills and no guarantees so be it. It's the customers choice!

Rap

[Swan1172]

Really?

Because it makes them money. It's not hard to grasp. SP nets the same amount of money from a LP sale it does from a ScubaToys sale or a LDS sale. SP apparently doesn't see the loss of a retailer like Larry as a significant issue. This is how monopoly's act. As quickly as Larry gets out of the SP business, someone else will be happy to step in to keep the SP faithful customer happy.

You might want to brush-up on your economics before you start spouting-off terms that you obviously don't understand.

A monopoly, by definition, is a type of market in which there are many buyers, but only one seller. SP is not even close to a monopoly. The last time I checked, there were dozens of other equipment manufacturers out there that offer the same kinds of products as SP, which means that you, the buyer, has a choice.

[awap]

I am a fan of ScubaPro and wish I could get their products online. However, I understand and respect their logic regarding online sales. I fail to understand why they are not more proactive in helping to solve the gray market problem, instead of using strong-arm tactics with regard to dealers like Larry.

You can get their products online. But they are from international "authorized" dealers, not Scubapro USA "authorized" dealers. US dealers may not (almost surely won't) honor the warrenty.

http://www.deepstop.de/catalog/default.php?cPath=79_71

In the case od Scubapro, you may have to ship thru an address in Germany.

[PerroneFord]

You might want to brush-up on your economics before you start spouting-off terms that you obviously don't understand.

A monopoly, by definition, is a type of market in which there are many buyers, but only one seller. SP is not even close to a monopoly. The last time I checked, there were dozens of other equipment manufacturers out there that offer the same kinds of products as SP, which means that you, the buyer, has a choice.

Fine Mr. Economist. Use whatever term you care to. As long as ScubaPro can dictate who can sell their products and for how much, *I* call that acting like a monopoly. And last I checked you don't have to corner the market to be called a monopoly. Microsoft has been charged with this practice and there are DAMN sure other Computer software operators. Standards Oil was charged with it, and there were other ways to get oil. AT&T was charged, and was forced to break up, even though there were other ways to get phone service. So apparently you *DON'T* have to be a sole provider, just big enough to muscle other people around and destroy free trade. Or maybe the Justice department doesn't understand the term monopoly either.

[GreenDiverDown]

You can get their products online. But they are from international "authorized" dealers, not Scubapro USA "authorized" dealers. US dealers may not (almost surely won't) honor the warrenty.

http://www.deepstop.de/catalog/default.php?cPath=79_71

In the case od Scubapro, you may have to ship thru an address in Germany.

I'm not doubting what you say, but...

I tried to order a SP knife from that Spanish company that you have recommended in the past... they told me that they no longer ship SP products to the U.S.

[diveborg]

You can get their products online. But they are from international "authorized" dealers, not Scubapro USA "authorized" dealers. US dealers may not (almost surely won't) honor the warrenty. What happens in a situation like this: I buy a SP reg in florida from an authorized dealer while on vacation, then I come back home to Oregon. About a year goes by and it is time to have the reg serviced. I go to my local authorized dealer to get the work done. What happens? Does the LDS demand I show proof I bought the reg at an authorized SP dealer? How does he know I didn't buy it "gray market". Or is my only option for service work that is covered under the SP parts replacement deal to send it back to the Florida shop I bought it from in the first place.

I guess I'm trying to ask, how does a LDS know if the SP product is legit or gray market?

[rmannix]

The warranty cards from the dealer you bought it from should be good enough for them

[xiSkiGuy]

The warranty cards from the dealer you bought it from should be good enough for themThe dealer you bought it from also registers the product with SP.

[DA Aquamaster]

What happens in a situation like this: I buy a SP reg in florida from an authorized dealer while on vacation, then I come back home to Oregon. About a year goes by and it is time to have the reg serviced. I go to my local authorized dealer to get the work done. What happens? Does the LDS demand I show proof I bought the reg at an authorized SP dealer? How does he know I didn't buy it "gray market". Or is my only option for service work that is covered under the SP parts replacement deal to send it back to the Florida shop I bought it from in the first place.

I guess I'm trying to ask, how does a LDS know if the SP product is legit or gray market?The dealer should register the warranty on-line before you leave the shop with you as the original purchaser and they as the authorized dealer.

If you move else where you may have to prove you are the original owner, but you can do that with the warranty card, with an original receipt with your name and the name of the authorized dealer, or with your copy of the service slip from the last annual service. If you lack all of that, have the dealer call the shop where you bought it to verify the sale or service.

[awap]

I'm not doubting what you say, but...

I tried to order a SP knife from that Spanish company that you have recommended in the past... they told me that they no longer ship SP products to the U.S.

Yes, I'm fairy sure you are right. I suspect Scubapro found a way to twist their arms as it was not a problem with diveinn about 7 years ago. But I did run into the same thing when I tried to order some SP kits from the above site. Thankfully, around the army, it is easy to find someone in Germany who will forward the order.

[awap]

What happens in a situation like this: I buy a SP reg in florida from an authorized dealer while on vacation, then I come back home to Oregon. About a year goes by and it is time to have the reg serviced. I go to my local authorized dealer to get the work done. What happens? Does the LDS demand I show proof I bought the reg at an authorized SP dealer? How does he know I didn't buy it "gray market". Or is my only option for service work that is covered under the SP parts replacement deal to send it back to the Florida shop I bought it from in the first place.

I guess I'm trying to ask, how does a LDS know if the SP product is legit or gray market?

You should need to show your registratuion card or your original receipt proving you bought it from a Scubapro USA authorized dealer. If you want free parts, you shopuld also have to show the receipt from the previous annual service. A gray market reg should not have a receipt from a USA authorized dealer. Hummm, I wonder if there would be a market for counterfeit receipts.:D I'd bet an LDS may be able to run the serial numbers and check.

[Swan1172]

Fine Mr. Economist. Use whatever term you care to. As long as ScubaPro can dictate who can sell their products and for how much, *I* call that acting like a monopoly. And last I checked you don't have to corner the market to be called a monopoly. Microsoft has been charged with this practice and there are DAMN sure other Computer software operators. Standards Oil was charged with it, and there were other ways to get oil. AT&T was charged, and was forced to break up, even though there were other ways to get phone service. So apparently you *DON'T* have to be a sole provider, just big enough to muscle other people around and destroy free trade. Or maybe the Justice department doesn't understand the term monopoly either.

I'm not economist, just someone with two graduate degrees and a fairly strong understanding of the economics of business. SP is not even remotely close to being a monopoly. I might go as far a classifying the dive industry as an oligopoly, but that would be very generous considering that there are no real significant barriers to entry, as can be seen in the number of small manufacurers in the market.

To refute your assertion above, just about any producer in any industry can "dictate who can sell their products and for how much." How many brand new GM cars do you see on the lot at Ford dealerships? None, because they restrict who they allow to sell their cars through their dealership agreements. SP claims to do the same thing, but fails miserably, because they allow a gray market to exist.

I agree with your earlier assessment that SP is turning the blind-eye on this practice purely out of greed. They see increased revenue, and obviously don't care where it is coming from. However, this is a short-sighted practice that is going to cost them market share in the long run. How? Mostly through dealers like Larry dropping the SP line from their stores because they can't sell it on the internet.

[DA Aquamaster]

You should need to show your registratuion card or your original receipt proving you bought it from a Scubapro USA authorized dealer. If you want free parts, you shopuld also have to show the receipt from the previous annual service. A gray market reg should not have a receipt from a USA authorized dealer. Hummm, I wonder if there would be a market for counterfeit receipts.:D I'd bet an LDS may be able to run the serial numbers and check.The LDS could call the shop where the service was aledgedly done, but I doubt Scubapro has staff sitting around tracking maintenence histories on individual regs. That basically leaves it up to the LDS staff to ensure that the reg is legitimate.

[Hoosier]

The LDS could call the shop where the service was aledgedly done, but I doubt Scubapro has staff sitting around tracking maintenence histories on individual regs. That basically leaves it up to the LDS staff to ensure that the reg is legitimate.


I have a question about SP serial number. As you know, we get the card having a serial number for the registration. And, there is a serial number in each stage of the regulator. Which number is the right number SP cares?

[Dan Gibson]

Hoosier,

Some regs are sold individually and some are sold as a set. Each card indicates one serial number whether or not it is sold individually or as a set. The cards also indicate the type of reg setup.
Here are some examples:
MK25 AF/S600
MK25 AF
MK25 AF DIN 300
R390
You should register what is on the card. It should match the regs.

The problem comes when you switch stuff around. Now you have to go through the regs an cards and match things up. I am too lazy and have too many regs to do this so I take all my cards in when it's time for service on my warrantied regs and let Mike figure it out ;)



I have a question about SP serial number. As you know, we get the card having a serial number for the registration. And, there is a serial number in each stage of the regulator. Which number is the right number SP cares?

[Hoosier]

Hoosier,

Some regs are sold individually and some are sold as a set. Each card indicates one serial number whether or not it is sold individually or as a set. The cards also indicate the type of reg setup.
Here are some examples:
MK25 AF/S600
MK25 AF
MK25 AF DIN 300
R390
You should register what is on the card. It should match the regs.

The problem comes when you switch stuff around. Now you have to go through the regs an cards and match things up. I am too lazy and have too many regs to do this so I take all my cards in when it's time for service on my warrantied regs and let Mike figure it out ;)


Exactly... I also have so many cards and regs. The number on the card for the registration is a totally different with the number on the each stage. For example, I bought MK25AF/S600. There is one number on the card for the registration. And there are two numbers on each stages. I have four Air 2 and registered it with the card. Each Air 2 has a totally different number on the unit.

I tried to get some warranty service before, but the owner who you work with doesn't want because I bought my reg from other authorized dealer from NY (my family town). I was told that he has a right to refuse the service. It is BS!

[Dan Gibson]

Hoosier,

I would say there is something fishy about your regs and cards. If sold as a set, both the first and second stage have the same serial number. Either the shop you bought it at screwed up or you have the wrong ones matched up.

I have never been denied free parts at the store when I present the warranty card. Two sets were purchased out of state and I registered them myself. Since I am the original owner and they were purchased at an authorized dealer, they have to provide the free parts (as long as I have met my yearly obligation) or they would get in trouble. SP would likely frown upon them turning a legitimate customer away because it was purchased somewhere else. I would think SP realizes people do move and have taken that into account.

btw, the two lines on the regs (first stage only) are just combined into one number since it doesn't fit on one line. Take a look at all your regs and cards and reverify all your numbers. If they don't match, you might have a complaint against the shop you purchased the regs from. This is the only thing I can think of that would lead the shop to believe they are grey market regs.

Some of the older regs use a little different system. Actually, I have a G250 HP that has no warranty card. It had to be mailed in. My shop has a tendencay to say they will do it for you and then never send it in. It's just laziness on their part. I have yet to get a card for that reg and it's over a year old. I'm not sure about the Air II warranty process since I haven't used one since 2001.


Exactly... I also have so many cards and regs. The number on the card for the registration is a totally different with the number on the each stage. For example, I bought MK25AF/S600. There is one number on the card for the registration. And there are two numbers on each stages. I have four Air 2 and registered it with the card. Each Air 2 has a totally different number on the unit.

I tried to get some warranty service before, but the owner who you work with doesn't want because I bought my reg from other authorized dealer from NY (my family town). I was told that he has a right to refuse the service. It is BS!

[StSomewhere]

And you'll pay 200 bucks to change the battery in your smartcom, unless you got it from a shop where the change is free.Am I reading this right? You're proud of this behavior? You support vendors who think this is a good business model? :11:

[Debraw]

So how does a supplier know an authorized dealer of a manufacturer sells something online or over the phone? Who tracks that? How do they know what they sell it for? There is a way around everything!!!!! Free wetsuits, free classes, free tanks....It can be done and it is being done everyday.

Find the business model that works for you, in your area, and go for it. I can't believe you people are attacking each others states, personal beliefs, so on and so forth.

[Scuba]

There are some very interesting legal issues at play here, and I'm not an attorney, but half my family is, plus I have several more on retainer... So I will lay out the layman legalize version and I'm sure we have plenty of attorneys on the board that will give us their take... A manufactured product comes with a manufactures warranty from the company. A company can choose who they sell to. They can say the product carries a warranty to the original purchaser from the retailer, thus if shop A sells to Shop B who then sells to a customer, there is no warranty... But if a manufacturer sets up a dealer, and sells them product at a price that includes a warranty, and that dealer sells that product, even after the dealer agreement has ended between the parties - they cannot void the warranty on those products.

(following paragraph has been taken out of order)

So it might be accurate that most people selling their product on line got it somehow that violated SP policies... if they sold it to someone, that might not have a warranty, but for a store that bought the product through their normal channels, and as recently recieved product as 3 weeks ago, they cannot simply recind the warranty on that product. The price I paid for the product, included a warranty - it stays in tact.


I'm not an attorney Larry, but I'll take a shot at it based on some business knowledge in retail, as this is an interesting case. After termination of a dealer agreement you have the right to liquidate remaining product, possible exceptions not withstanding. The manufacturer warranty remains valid during liquidation, I think that's the norm in much of retail. Here is where you make it interesting, you are now selling remaining stock using a dealer agreement non allowed method - Internet, which voids the warranty according to SP quotes on here. Not being an authorized dealer any longer, which I infer is the case, you are not bound by the terms of agreement. Yet, you have full knowledge being a prior dealer that selling product online voids warranty. An interesting case indeed. I'm not sure how much, if any, specific case precedent there may be. Internet case issues are sometimes treated different than standard non Internet cases. These cases are fairly new and being established.

This warranty issue is a legitimate concern for consumers. I would suggest anyone who may be affected and is concerned by it, ask SP to clarify this case. Since they are the one's issuing the manufacturers warranty. This potential manufacturer retailer dispute may affect the warranty to consumer. So if you want to be sure, find out, call, send email and save with product receipt. In practical terms this is probably not much of an issue or easy to overcome, unless SP wants to make an example out of this case, which I would very much doubt.

Having said all that, I must say that I have not had the pleasure of doing business with Larry, yet. That's no small complement coming from my critical skeptical self. Larry and ScubaToys have "earned" quite a reputation here for taking care of their customers. This is one thing we can count on - perhaps the most important aspect in a seller and buyer relationship. Thank you Larry, there ought to be more like you!


In fact, to avoid the restraint of trade laws, all the dealer agreements from all manufacturers state that you can do whatever you want with product after you have it..., the manufacturer is not setting price, distribution, etc... they just have the right to no longer ship to you if you don't follow their policy... Otherwise, they would have a serious fair trade investigation... And this came straight from an agent at the DOJ that I talked to...

If a manufacturer can take action over a dealer not following policy they are in fact setting policy. The law is what it is. It is applied the way it is. But the practical effects of price control, and imposition of general limits on retail competition - is available today in the USA to any manufacturer/marketer who desires it. It exists within limits. Nothing like guaranteeing the retailer a minimum profit margin on a product. Retailers love it, it limits the issue of price competition. There are enough other challenges.

This is not in the interest of consumers - overall.

[Xizang]

They see increased revenue, and obviously don't care where it is coming from. However, this is a short-sighted practice that is going to cost them market share in the long run. How? Mostly through dealers like Larry dropping the SP line from their stores because they can't sell it on the internet.

but not if they continue to build on their brand equity. I think Scubapro has a strong brand equity that a drop in sales from a lost distribution point would probably just be filled up with another distribution point.

[StSomewhere]

If a manufacturer can take action over a dealer not following policy they are in fact setting policy. The law is what it is. It is applied the way it is. But the practical effects of price control, and imposition of general limits on retail competition - is available today in the USA to any manufacturer/marketer who desires it. It exists within limits. Nothing like guaranteeing the retailer a minimum profit margin on a product. Retailers love it, it limits the issue of price competition. There are enough other challenges.But the manufacturer is limited in the action they can take. Basically, they can't sue to prevent sales at lower than MAP pricing, they can't reposses the inventory that's already been paid for, all they can do is refuse to continue to sell the wholesale product to the reseller. This applies to goods from Scubapro, or Oakley or Callaway (all of which can be found on the gray market at significant discounts if you know where to look).

[SCUBA-J]

I have worked in many dive shops and was cert. on S/P in the 80's on S/P. I would not walk across the street for the stuff , they have NOTHING that great (maybe the computers ) but the BCD's are old school crap and the regs are the same thing for -ever but new name and higher price . So buy up guys ! I am all about KISS and S/P is not that. So fire away at the hate mail

[SCUBA-J]

By the way , all I am saying is S/P is not the end all be all like so many think.Thats all

[Xizang]

who is anyway the market leader in regulators? I mean the quantifiable market leader declared by a 3rd party agency like AC Nielsen. I wonder if manufacturers get this kind of info

[scubapro50]

I too have worked for a ScubaPro dealer back in the 60s and early 70s. I can now say that his sales technique was very similar to a car dealer. We carried two major lines of equipment (ScubaPro and Dacor). The shop owner would have people go out and purchase the "low end" regulator (unbalance down stream 1st stage with a small nott hole purge 2 stage) from U.S. Divers, Healthways, Nemrod or Sportways. When these '"low end" regulators were compared to our MK5 or MK7 they always loss. He would never discount ScubaPro but would make "package" deals that offered some other line of equipment mixed in with the ScubaPro stuff. Thay way he could say he "discounted" the other stuff...... This dive shop owner is no longer but his fame for wheeling and dealling still lasts . >>>> The wildest deal I saw him get into to was a young man that pulled up in a 59 corvette sometime around 1973 ..... he wanted 2 complete sets of equipment and 2 basic courses for the vette. NOW THE VETTE WASN'T IN THE BEST SHAPE ... but GOD ... it was a vette and it did run. THe got what he wanted and the shop owner got the pink slip to the vette. By the way ... there wasn't much ScubaPro equipment that Joe let him have in the deal.

[dherbman]

SNIP

Good post, I don't see anything inaccurate there. I'd drive with you, but that kind of logic has no place here ;) .

[awap]

This warranty issue is a legitimate concern for consumers. I would suggest anyone who may be affected and is concerned by it, ask SP to clarify this case. Since they are the one's issuing the manufacturers warranty. This potential manufacturer retailer dispute may affect the warranty to consumer. So if you want to be sure, find out, call, send email and save with product receipt. In practical terms this is probably not much of an issue or easy to overcome, unless SP wants to make an example out of this case, which I would very much doubt.


I tried that yesterdy (1:30, central). I sent the following email to the "contact us" address ('swarranty@johnsonoutdoors.com') from the SP site FAQ section dealing with warrenties and online sales:

"I have located a dealer (Scubatoys in Texas) who claims to be an authorized Scubapro dealer and is offering the Mk25/S600 for sale over the internet. Is this an authorized dealer and will this regulator be covered by the Scubapro warrenty. I would appreciate your quick response.

Thank You,"

Much to my dismay I have not yet received an answer. I will post the response if I ever get one.

[dherbman]

awap, The e-mail you sent is a longer version of the same question I asked SP. It took nearly 24 hours to get this reply (posted earlier in this thread).


This letter specifically addresses Leisure Pro, New York but covers any internet sales.

Thank you for considering SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment.

Please be aware that Leisure Pro, New York is not, nor has ever been, an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer.

Leisure Pro obtains our products through “gray-market” sources and not from our factory. We have no way of assuring the ultimate consumer that any item purchased via this source has not been tampered with or modified. Nor can we assume that our product has been properly tested and inspected. As such, SCUBAPRO UWATEC does not extend any warranties on its products purchased from Leisure Pro or any other "unauthorized” dealer.

SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order. We maintain a minimum pricing policy that our authorized dealers adhere to. Although some of our dealers advertise our equipment, once again they are not authorized to make direct sales through the internet, but rather, authorized dealers are only authorized to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA equipment over the counter at their retail location.

All online companies that sell and make direct purchases of our product, like LeisurePro are not an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer and SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment obtained through channels other than SCUBAPRO UWATEC Authorized Dealers does not carry the SCUBAPRO UWATEC Limited Lifetime/Limited Warranty. If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided.

If you still decide to purchased SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment from anywhere other than an Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Dealership, we recommend that it be inspected by an Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Repair Center to be sure that it is operating and performing to SCUBAPRO UWATEC specifications

LeisurePro may offer their own warranty on the equipment that you are considering, however, LeisurePro, like many other online companies that sell our product, has not been trained by SCUBAPRO UWATEC nor is certified to perform maintenance on SCUBAPRO UWATEC or UWATEC equipment.

You can find an authorized dealer in your area at http://www.scubapro.com/dealers/usde...RO&NewSearch=1

Please feel free to contact us should you have further queries regarding this matter.

Best regards,
Patty Savinski

SCUBAPRO
Product Registration

[DA Aquamaster]

who is anyway the market leader in regulators? I mean the quantifiable market leader declared by a 3rd party agency like AC Nielsen. I wonder if manufacturers get this kind of info20 years ago I would have said without reservation that Scubapro was the market leader, from the perspective of a discriminating diver wanting the best in terms of quality and performance.

But now, the competition is much better in comparision.

In my opinion, part of that is due to the competition doing a better job of engineering and part of it is Scubapro trying to increase sales in what has become a much larger market filled with much less discriminatiing divers. Sadly, quality is not the number one criteria of many ocassional or cost concerned divers. Across the industry as a whole, I think regulator quality has fallen (plastic second stage cases, air barrels, etc) to lower production costs and market prices.

[awap]

awap, The e-mail you sent is a longer version of the same question I asked SP. It took nearly 24 hours to get this reply (posted earlier in this thread).

Thanks,

I'm just waiting, impatiently. I suspect the specific answers to my 2 questions may have some legal ramifications, as Larry suggested, that may delay any response. But I publicly said that I would inquire and didn't want anyone to assume I had not.

[scubatoys]

Yes, their form letter is not too applicable in our case - To avoid confusion - I've put my notes in RED.

This letter specifically addresses Leisure Pro, New York but covers any internet sales.

Thank you for considering SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment.

Please be aware that Leisure Pro, New York is not, nor has ever been, an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer.

Scubatoys on the other hand was set up as a Scubapro dealer by Scubapro.

Leisure Pro obtains our products through “gray-market” sources and not from our factory. We have no way of assuring the ultimate consumer that any item purchased via this source has not been tampered with or modified. Nor can we assume that our product has been properly tested and inspected. As such, SCUBAPRO UWATEC does not extend any warranties on its products purchased from Leisure Pro or any other "unauthorized” dealer.

All our product came directly shipped to us from ScubaPro - not a "gray-market" source.


LeisurePro may offer their own warranty on the equipment that you are considering, however, LeisurePro, like many other online companies that sell our product, has not been trained by SCUBAPRO UWATEC nor is certified to perform maintenance on SCUBAPRO UWATEC or UWATEC equipment.

While in our situation... Our repair tech attended ScubaPro training seminars, and the parts we use came from Scubapro.

If I started getting more product through "gray-market" channels, they would have the right to refuse warranty, but the serial numbers on our units are listed with Scubapro as being sold to us when we were in fact an authorized dealer... It would be a PR and legal nightmare for them to cross that line.

[dherbman]

Please don't take this post as anything other than what it is: an attempt to clarify what seem to be mutually exclusive statements. Your post seems limited to those lines which seem to support your stance, while failing to address the critical points which bring question to the validity of your claim that the SB warrantee is intact for items you sell over the net.

You have confirmed:

You are/were an authorized dealer.
You are/were an authorized service center
Your products are genuine product.

None of these issues were ever in question. What is in question is what you have so far not clarified:

1)SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order.

2) Authorized dealers are only authorized to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA equipment over the counter at their retail location.

3)If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided.

As a customer, I would not be interested in a LDS warrantee. That would be like the old US Divers POS policy. I want world wide recognition of the warrantee I paid for. Points 1-3 above make it clear that I will not have that if I buy online. You seem to say you are trumping SP policy, but it reads like a Clintonesque debate in which no clear answer is provided to these three basic points.
I see a couple scenarios that could play out.

1) I buy online from you and go to another shop to have warrantee work done. They look up the registration and see it was bought from an authorized dealer, no problem.

2) I buy online from you and go to another shop to have warrantee work done. They look up the registration and see it was bought from you and refuse to honor the warrantee without proof it was not bought online.

Thanks for your time Larry

Dave Herbert

[paulwall]

How? Mostly through dealers like Larry dropping the SP line from their stores because they can't sell it on the internet.

Just to clarify, Larry's decision to drop SP was not because he couldn't sell it on the internet, it had to do with MAP (minimum advertised pricing) in his contract with SP and SP's inability (unwillingness?) to control sales of their products through the grey market. (If I read his original post correctly).

Larry has several products in his store that are not on his web site. It gives you all the more reason to visit his store. Other B&M stores with Internet Portals are similar (DiveSports.com, for one, doesn't advertise his AL tanks online for his own reasons).

[paulwall]

Yet, you have full knowledge being a prior dealer that selling product online voids warranty. An interesting case indeed. I'm not sure how much, if any, specific case precedent there may be. Internet case issues are sometimes treated different than standard non Internet cases. These cases are fairly new and being established.

But, then, doesn't it become SP's burden to prove that the purchaser bought that reg set (or whatever) via the internet? SP's records show that they shipped these products to Larry while Larry was in good standing. Is it not unreasonable to assume that 100% of those items shipped were sold via the internet? If not 100%, then what percentage?

Larry does a substantial business "over the counter". If I have a ScubaToys receipt, dated even after Larry's notice of termination, can SP reasonably presume that the item(s) were not sold "over the counter"?

[awap]

3)If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided.


Dave

I agree that is what the letter you received from Scubapro says. But on their website where they address the same issue, there story is somewhat different. Rather than useing the word "will" (which I'm sure is correct if you are talking about Leisurepro) Scubapro uses the word "may" and it is not in reference to any specific internet dealer (like Scubatoys, Diveinn, or Deepstop.De). So I am not sure how to apply their general statements which appears to apply to all dealers (authorized and unauthorized, foreign and domestic) as opposed to response you received which appears to be specifically directed at Leisurepro.

[dherbman]

Yeah, it's all just about as clear as the water I last dove in.


Dave

I agree that is what the letter you received from Scubapro says. But on their website where they address the same issue, there story is somewhat different. Rather than useing the word "will" (which I'm sure is correct if you are talking about Leisurepro) Scubapro uses the word "may" and it is not in reference to any specific internet dealer (like Scubatoys, Diveinn, or Deepstop.De). So I am not sure how to apply their general statements which appears to apply to all dealers (authorized and unauthorized, foreign and domestic) as opposed to response you received which appears to be specifically directed at Leisurepro.

[HarryWhisman]

OK I've got it!!

Take your Scubapro stuff into the LDS for warranty work and if they don't know you, then they have to call Scubapro with the serial number whereupon they look up to see where you bought it. Oh wait wait that's not right--they look up to see if they have a warranty card on file from an authorized dealer because they don't keep track of serial numbers.

Got It!!

[yknot]

1) I buy online from you and go to another shop to have warrantee work done. They look up the registration and see it was bought from an authorized dealer, no problem.


The problem here is that they can't look up a serial # because they aren't tracked by SP. Even the gear at LeisurePro was originally sold to an authorized source, who then sold it to LP. Applying their logic, if you bought a used piece of ScubaPro equipment you couldn't get warranty service. This tells me that SP considers their authorized dealers to be the customer, not you as a diver. For that reason alone I would refuse to support them. A friend bought a Uwatec computer from LP and called ScubaPro about an issue. They quoted a price of $400 for a service (new battery and "test"). This certainly sounds punative to me. After all, my friend did originally decide to purchase a Uwatec product, thereby supporting SP, and as a reward for being a frugal consumer is being treated like a traitor to the sport.

As far as warranty issues are concerned, MAP agreements are illegal, as is the common practice of requiring specific people (your "authorized" dealer) to use specific parts in order to maintain warranty coverage. Unfortunately, my state's attorney general, as well as my federal representatives, have more important things to do than deal with the complaints of scuba divers. You likely couldn't even find an attorney to sue someone as a class action unless the money was bigger, like from a drug manufacturer. What will change the situation is that more dive consumers will seek brands like Zeagle, due to their customer service record and belief in a fairer way of selling products at a discount, leaving SP to play catch-up, providing they haven't alienated their customer base beyond repair.

[awap]

Thanks,

I'm just waiting, impatiently. I suspect the specific answers to my 2 questions may have some legal ramifications, as Larry suggested, that may delay any response. But I publicly said that I would inquire and didn't want anyone to assume I had not.

Just wanted to let you know, I have not forgotten. But maybe Scubapro has. Well maybe I'll here something Monday.

[surfsidedav]

Just how does the grey market get supplied? To keep this simple, I'm going to assume that SP only has one plant that manufactures their regs, another for fins, etc. So when product comes off the production line, is there a split in the line where half goes to legit dealers and the other half to grey market? Or is it all sold to legit dealers and these dealers sell it to LP at a small markup? If so, then all product is sold with warranties up front so why wouldn't a product from LP have a warranty? Or does the warranty only apply to the original buyer? No that can't be right, because the LDS would be original buyer, not the end consumer. So the split in the line needs to be stopped or notice the spikes in the ordering curve from the dealers. Either way, to stop grey market sales doesn't seem an impossible thing to do, but because as previously stated, they make the same amount of $ either way.

[DA Aquamaster]

What I heard from our LDS a couple weeks ago was that SP was going to start tracking serial numbers on larger reg orders (20 or more?) to ensure they were being sold at the shops that were originally ordering them.

That seems to be a recognition that grey market regs are getting there from current authorized SP dealers rather than from ex-dealers liquidating stock, etc. and does seem to demonstrate a willingness to try to do something about it.

[yknot]

Anyone care to speculate what will happen to SP sales volumes if they do actually shut down the supply to venders like LeisurePro?

[DA Aquamaster]

I suspect that is exactly why companies that require over the counter purchases have not shut down the supply to on-line vendors like Leisure Pro. Sales probably total anywhere from 10 to 20% of their total sales for most companies.

I think for most companies with on-line sales restrictions it is a situation where if they get a complaint from a dealer that another dealer is selling things on-line or to on-line retailers, they have to act, but if the offending dealer is discreet, they are likely to look the other way as the sales rep is making money on the increased volume, the company is making money on the increased volume, and the customers are at least buying from that company rather than from the competition. So in their view, if you don't have a dealer complaint, you don't really have any immediate harm.

However I think more dive equipment dealers in general are expressing concern about what they perceive as unfair internet competition and more or less demanding that it either be stopped or that they be allowed to compete on more or less equal terms. The result is more dealers dropping lines that both restrict their ability to engage in mail-order/e-mail/internet/phone sales and refuse to do anything effective about curbing supplies to on-line retailers.

It really is unfair when you consider that companies that do this are still making as much money as ever of the products they make (and in some cases more with the reduced warranty obligations of "unauthorized" sales) but their authorized dealers then take the hit in sales and in having to deal with customers when the on-line product has a problem.

On-line sales do potentially create other markets but these are often also restricted as they would "support" on line sales and are not embraced by dealers. An example is mail order servicing. I know the LDS I work with is not real keen on mail in service. If a local customer has a minor adjustment issue after an annual service, a quick trip to the shop resolves it. If it is a mail order service however, it requires the reg to be shipped back to the shop, customers tend to get crabby, and the owner has to defend the shop's reputation. Even though those situations are very rare, he just does not want to do go to that trouble for a customer base that he cannot even sell merchandise to and whose only business with the shop will be an annual service that by neccesity is heavily discounted to offset the shipping costs the customer has to pay. On top of that there is always the potential for a dealer whose customers ship them elsewhere to complain to the company about the "unfair" mail order competition. Unfortunately the corporate response is more likely to be a request to the mail order servicing dealer to stop doing it than it would be for them to tell the complaining dealer to suck it up and improve their customer service - especially if the complaining dealer does a higher sales volume.

Unfortunately with those companies that restrict on-line sales, service and parts support are usually tied to authorized dealers as a means to support their dealers. This works, but also prevents technicians with no real concerns about equipment sales from operating independently from authorized dealers. In a sense, that is unfair to customers who have purchased a on-line reg - often not knowing the dealer is "unauthorized" - as they may have serious problems getting it serviced.

In the end, I don't think the hot button issue is so much whether a company allows or disallows on-line sales. Rather, one of the major issues is the concerns of dealers relating to the lack of fidelity and veracity of companies that have a policy but then do not enforce it and/or are not willing to accept the sales consequences of that policy. Additionally, the other major issue is that of the customers who feel or discover that a company may not take care of the customers who bought their product regardless of where it was purchased.

If any company is going to restrict on-line sales, or restrict warranties or services to the customers buying on-line prodcts, then in my opinion they do have an ethical obligation to do what is required to prevent or at least sharply limit those sales.

[yknot]

In the end, I don't think the hot button issue is so much whether a company allows or disallows on-line sales. Rather, one of the major issues is the concerns of dealers relating to the lack of fidelity and veracity of companies that have a policy but then do not enforce it and/or are not willing to accept the sales consequences of that policy. Additionally, the other major issue is that of the customers who feel or discover that a company may not take care of the customers who bought their product regardless of where it was purchased.

If any company is going to restrict on-line sales, or restrict warranties or services to the customers buying on-line prodcts, then in my opinion they do have an ethical obligation to do what is required to prevent or at least sharply limit those sales.

All good points. What so many LDS's need to realize is that divers aren't all buying into the reasons they continue to use (more like threats) as to why we need to buy from them exclusively. No amount of LDS-vs-online buyer threads is going to change this new reality. While a manufacturer may have an ethical obligation to live up the spirit of their agreements to their dealers, don't they also have an ethical obligation to the real customer? The ones who, if they did any thing "wrong", sought out a product at a discount and didn't buy it from the right place? As a consumer I feel an obligation to common sense to specifically not support brands that feel so little regard for me.

[awap]

As a consumer I feel an obligation to common sense to specifically not support brands that feel so little regard for me.

I believe the problem lies more with the retailers than the wholesalers. No doubt, the dealer agreements pose some limitations. But the shops I do business with know how to work around most of those limitations when they really want to. As long as the bottom line on the sales receipt covers any agreement price restraints, agreement violation is not evidenced. The guy who says he can't negotiate price, or can't sell you parts, or tells you "buy on the internet, die on the internet" and other deceptions is the LDS, not the manufacturer. Shops have lots of good choices now about which gear to sell. Many who are pushing the gear of the manufactures that a "tying their hands" are doing it because they like and even insist on those restrictions. They are quite happy about them until they find that the manufacturer can't or won't fully honor those agreements.

Things are changing. We, the diving consumers, just need to keep steady pressure on to achieve this change at a pace that allows the system to adjust and adapt. I don't want to see LDSs totally disappear and I don't think that is the direction we are headed. But I do believe we are going to see areas with multiple inefficient LDSs trim back. And in some areas that don't have enough divers to support a healthy LDS, we will probably see a return of independent dive clubs that can provide training, gas, and services.

[waynne fowler]

Leisure pro gets Scubapro items from grey market sources and then sells them with a leisure pro warranty rather than a Scubapro warranty as they are not an authorized Scubapro dealer.

Alot of the times this comes from shops going out of business so they buy the SP stock up cheap. Makes me wonder why shops are going out of business so fast.

[waynne fowler]

We are all to blame for jobs going overseas.

We shop to find the lowest price on everything from Gas to Airline Tickets and even Scuba equipment. The companies that manufacturer these goods that we buy need to find ways to keep the price of their products low so consumers will continue to support their manufacturing facilities. To do this they use differing methods, but the highest cost to business is labor, and no labor is cheaper than that overseas. The companies also have another problem. We, the cheap consumer, are also stock holders and demand that they turn a big profit or we will sell and the stock will decrease in value. To make a big profit they cut costs in any and every area they can including labor. By keeping the cost down the American market will buy the product, and sales will continue.

It's a bad circle that we are in. Please do not blast me as being BIG COMPANY, as the internet has made many LDSs honest and those that were at 400% deserved the fall, but there are many shops that are well below MSRP and still get hosed for trying to make a decent profit.

At my LDS, a guys wife came in and bought $2000 worth of gear for his christmas. I don't know what he said to her, but she called in tears saying they had taken advantage of her. I gave the shop owner a list of the gear if purchased from LP, and they were $235 apart. I told the shop owner to let it go, but he offered fre Nitrox training, a free wetsuit, and a few other things.

I was glad I was at the store when he came in mid conversation about my listing my home. Here is the conversation...
"I would be glad to list you home for you, that's what I do".

"Oh thank you, but I am going to save myself the $21k fee and use the internet"

"You'll never sell your home that way, and the laws are to complicated for the average consumer to understand. Not only do I list your house, but I network with other realtors, use local listings, MLS, and have an agent at your home during any open house. It is also safer for your family using an agent to sell your house."

"I understand and appreciate the offer, but I could use the money I save from this and use it toward upgrades on our new home."

" The people that sell homes on the internet are usually selling property that is in bad shape and are hard to track after the sale."

"I'll let you sell the house if you are willing to do it for 2%, thats still $7k, and I am sure your costs will not exceed $1k."

"I can't stay in business if I sell for 2%. I have fixed costs like my office and support team that get a piece of the pie. Nor would it be fair to the rest of my clients if I took your home for less than the 6% fee."

"Well home team realty here advertises 3%, how do they stay in business?"

" They are a low cost agency, that provide virtually no service and I hear they don't always return calls to perspective buyers."

"Thanks again, but I think I will do it myself and save that money for other things."

"You'll regret not using a licensed realtor as we are always here for you in case there is a problem from the time you start to show your house, till closing. I don't think you understand the issues that can arise when selling your own home, but you'll learn that saving money is not always best in the long run and that is not enough for the trouble instore for you."

"You could be right, but how much should I save to make it worth it? You are back here complaining that you were taken advantage of with the price of your equipment and that will only save you $235. And to add to that your gear purchased from here comes with the full manufacturers warranty. How much do you think that is worth?"

"Well this is different, once I buy the gear the sale is over, your house may take 2 months to sell, and there is a lot that needs to be done. This shop will make plenty of money if the sell at the same price as LP."

At this point I gave up, as I know the LDS owner is just to nice, but I thought it was interesting how defensive he was about his own job, but thought that everyone else should make less....

Off my box now, and gosh i feel better.

I like that story... hit's right at the heart of the matter... most of us wouldn't take a pay cut to do the same job or a lesser job for that matter.

[daniel f aleman]

This thread reinforces the perceived good quality of Scubapro equipment at the least.

Scubapro continues to supports LDS's because they see the demise of the LDS as a threat to agency certification of new divers; I agree on that point, at least for the foreseeable future.

[scubatoys]

Scubapro continues to supports LDS's because they see the demise of the LDS as a threat to agency certification of new divers; I agree on that point, at least for the foreseeable future.

Huh?? This thread is primairly about the exact opposite. That SP has created an environment where gray market sellers account for 30% of their sales! And this number was given to me by my ScubaPro Rep when they counted the number of recalled computers they replaced - and asked where they were purchased... but replaced them even if gray market since they were bending up folks like pretzels...

So it doesn't seem the demise of the LDS is much of a concern... check out aeris or atomic products on LP if you want to see companies concerned - their products aren't there... It appears that SC Johnson cares more about their sales of Drano... and if the scuba industry goes down the drain... at least it won't be clogged!

[waynne fowler]

You won't get a factory warrantly buying scuba pro online no matter what lies an internet site spews up.

And you'll pay 200 bucks to change the battery in your smartcom, unless you got it from a shop where the change is free.


Your statement on the warrenty issue does not seem to agree with what SP says on its online site in its Q&A section.

"""I was told that my SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment does not come with a warranty if I purchase it through the mail or over the internet. Is this true?

SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment purchased from sources other than a SCUBAPRO UWATEC authorized dealer may not carry the specific warranty that the United States, US territories and Canada offers. This equipment is also not covered under the Free Preferred Parts Replacement Program or Batteries For Life Program. Authorized dealers are only allowed to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment over the counter, at their retail location. If you find a mail order or internet dealer selling SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment, you should contact us to determine if you are dealing with an authorized dealer.""""[

If I'm reading this right Al has it exactly right.

[Hoosier]

Huh?? This thread is primairly about the exact opposite. That SP has created an environment where gray market sellers account for 30% of their sales! And this number was given to me by my ScubaPro Rep when they counted the number of recalled computers they replaced - and asked where they were purchased... but replaced them even if gray market since they were bending up folks like pretzels...

So it doesn't seem the demise of the LDS is much of a concern... check out aeris or atomic products on LP if you want to see companies concerned - their products aren't there... It appears that SC Johnson cares more about their sales of Drano... and if the scuba industry goes down the drain... at least it won't be clogged!


That's true. Actually, no matter whether you bought the equipment from, the manufactures used to do the recall replacement to save any lawsuit as long as the equipment isn't a counterfeit. As I know, there was an actual case before......

In addition, SP allows the internet, mail, and phone other in some Asian countries. Even, you can order any SP equipments by using the text message on your cell phone. So, it is totally depending on the market and where you are. For example, you are a tourist and order SP regulator from your hotel room. Of course, it is from an authorized dealer and you can get register by using a phone, internet, or email. And then, you bring it back to US. It is covered by SP international warranty or not? I talked with SP USA and was told, "It is covered." LOL~~~ What kind of BS policy it is!;) Again, many divers are confused with the warranty with SP Free Part Program.


P.S. BTW, Larry. I only have a couple of hours for the transit so that I need to cab it over. Thanks for you offer. I don't mind a pickup truck. It sounds like my car..... :)

[daniel f aleman]

Huh?? This thread is primairly about the exact opposite. That SP has created an environment where gray market sellers account for 30% of their sales! And this number was given to me by my ScubaPro Rep when they counted the number of recalled computers they replaced - and asked where they were purchased... but replaced them even if gray market since they were bending up folks like pretzels...

So it doesn't seem the demise of the LDS is much of a concern... check out aeris or atomic products on LP if you want to see companies concerned - their products aren't there... It appears that SC Johnson cares more about their sales of Drano... and if the scuba industry goes down the drain... at least it won't be clogged!

Grey-markets concern authorized dealers selling to third-party retailers, not from consumers selling to second-hand consumers. NO COMPANY of any kind has 30% of total sales in a grey-market. If Scubapro has ANY products make the grey-market, well, that's up to Scubapro to stop if they really want to support a dealership business model, which they state; if they don't (for any reason), then they will end up in a lawsuit concerning warranties at the least. If the LDS model ends what will take it's place? Another section in a sporting goods warehouse? Dive clubs? GUE's of the world?

[mdb]

If the LDS model ends what will take it's place? Another section in a sporting goods warehouse? Dive clubs? GUE's of the world?\

Retailers with both a web and brick and mortar store, far fewer "full retail" stores, better prices, local dive clubs with compressors, companies changing their policies, the market will adapt. It has too.

[StSomewhere]

Grey-markets concern authorized dealers selling to third-party retailers, not from consumers selling to second-hand consumers. NO COMPANY of any kind has 30% of total sales in a grey-market. If Scubapro has ANY products make the grey-market, well, that's up to Scubapro to stop if they really want to support a dealership business model, which they state; if they don't (for any reason), then they will end up in a lawsuit concerning warranties at the least.BS. The other place gray market ScubaPro goods come from the small LDS who "over-orders" to get a volume discount, then dumps the excess stock at or near cost. Again, this isn't just ScubaPro, its also Oakley sunglasses, Callaway golf clubs, Nikon cameras, the list goes on and on. I'd be surprised if there *wasn't* a 30% gray market for all these manufacturers, there's simply too much margin in the product for there *not* to be.


If the LDS model ends what will take it's place? Another section in a sporting goods warehouse? Dive clubs? GUE's of the world?When I went to Monterey two months ago, every third tank at the Breakwater had a Sports Chalet sticker, most definitely the big sporting goods stores in key locales will be in the scuba business esp. for things that involve repeat service like fills. Or some enterprising individual will build a business model based around quality recreational/technical fills plus other goods and services (read: instruction), check out Fill Express in Pompano some time if you don't believe me. Where the demand exists, entrepreneurs will try to fill the gap.

Besides, weren't you the guy gloating to everyone about living the the Caribbean? I've had two dive boat captains tell me that tank/weight rentals are their primary source of profitability. What do you need an LDS for?

[paulwall]

\
local dive clubs with compressors,

I would also expect to see companies like Air Liquide, and Air Products and even welding supply companies offering BIG 5000psi tanks of breating air, or filling SCBA and SCUBA tanks. They have the equipment already. I would expect the prices per fill to be higher, to make it worth their time (maybe $10-$12/fill).

Down here, with the commercial diving companies, there are also alternatives.

[daniel f aleman]

Besides, weren't you the guy gloating to everyone about living the the Caribbean? I've had two dive boat captains tell me that tank/weight rentals are their primary source of profitability. What do you need an LDS for?

My individual needs are not Scubapro's concern; they have to think industry-wide. I just wonder about the future of agency certification, it's worked remarkably well for 50 years through the LDS system, and the biggest proponents of cetification have been the equipment manufaturers - if for no other reason, liability.

Anyway, yes, I have my own compressor, here in the Caribbean... where it's warm... bikinis... warm water, 110ft vis...;)

[Scuba]

This paragraph is from the SP letter quoted by dherbman. Is the highlighted section a mistake, a slip, or a statement of fact?


"All online companies that sell and make direct purchases of our product, like LeisurePro are not an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer and SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment obtained through channels other than SCUBAPRO UWATEC Authorized Dealers does not carry the SCUBAPRO UWATEC Limited Lifetime/Limited Warranty. If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products online, the warranty will be voided."

This is from the SP website, previously quoted here, regarding warranty of online sales product. (My comments inserted in blue)


"I was told that my SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment does not come with a warranty if I purchase it through the mail or over the internet. Is this true?

This is how they answer a True or False question.

SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment purchased from sources other than a SCUBAPRO UWATEC authorized dealer may not (or they may) carry the specific warranty that the United States, US territories and Canada offers. This equipment is also not covered under the Free Preferred Parts Replacement Program or Batteries For Life Program. (Clear, no may's, if's and when's, these two programs are not covered.)

Authorized dealers are only allowed to sell SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment over the counter, at their retail location. (Clear, but what if they don’t adhere and sell online. How does it affect a customer's product warranty?) If you find a mail order or internet dealer selling SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment, you should contact us to determine if you are dealing with an authorized dealer. (Will you then answer the question posed?)

If you have already purchased from a source other than an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer, we would strongly recommend that you take your equipment to an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer to have it inspected to be sure that it is in operating condition and that it is performing to correct specifications. We would also advise you to follow the SCUBAPRO UWATEC recommended service and maintenace guidelines for your product. Some retailers will offer their own warranties on our product. You may wish to contact the source from which you obtained your product to see what recourse you have concerning warranty issues."

And the answer is? Maybe it's not a simple true and false answer, but the only definitive answer given was on parts and battery programs when purchasing through a non authorized dealer.

Is this any way to pretend to answer a consumer’s, potential customer’s simple and precise question?

If there are any SP reps here, please see that your company updates this confusing mumble jumble and provides a clear, easy to understand answer. This is something which a company who truely values it’s customers would demonstrate during its exercise of normal business practice.

paulwall, your raise some good points. However, they are based on a particuliar view, which can be countered with a different perspective leaving an uncertain outcome. Let's see what SP's reply to awap's question is.

[scubapro50]

I guess the only way any of us can answer this question about warranty is purchase a ScubaPro product at ScubaToys and send in all the required paperwork ... then take it to a current ScubaPro dealer and see if they will perform work under warranty ....

[garyfotodiver]

I guess the only way any of us can answer this question about warranty is purchase a ScubaPro product at ScubaToys and send in all the required paperwork ... then take it to a current ScubaPro dealer and see if they will perform work under warranty ....


Great idea! Please keep us all apprised of your purchase and dealings with the SP hierarchy.

[DA Aquamaster]

There are some good points being made. I think though that we need to separate a warranty issue from a liability/recall issue. Obviously when SP had a safety/reliability problem with the Uwatec computers they had sold, they needed to recall and fix them regardless of where people bought them. To do otherwise would get them sued in a heartbeat as we are talking about a consumer safety issue not a consumer monetary loss.

On the other hand warranty and battery replacement issues are going to be an entirely different story. The free battery replacement you get on the covered Uwatec computer bought from an authorized Scubapro dealer, is going to offset the higher costs you paid to get it from a dealer. Of course that is by design and I won't get into the actual versus charged cost for the replacement, the inadvisability of ever buying a computer without a user changeable battery or the motives behind the Uwatec approach.

But given the cost of a Smart Com and the greater savings that can be had on-line I think 30% on-line sales is pretty realistic and accurate for that particular product... but probably not for SP products and sales as a whole. With regard to regulators, I have noticed that the margin increases with the cost of the regulator and the high end regulators offer a greater margin than the industry standard. So unfortunately, it is the higher priced SP products that offer the most advantage for purchase on-line and those are the sales most likely lost to the LDS as the total amount saved by buying on line becomes very high. Many customers will be swayed by a savings of $150-$200 on, for example, a Mk 25 S600 regulator. Consequently, those are the same items that dealers need to be allowed to discount more in order to be more competitive with on-line retailers.

The choice is pretty simple, SP needs to stop on-line sales by aggreesively tracking the products to their source and pulling the dealerships supplying the grey market or they need to admit the obvious - that they do not want to lose the volume and market share currently generated by on-line sales - and allow local dealers to price their products competitively with on-line retailers.

In the end this approach would provide the compromise of allowing SP to avoid the loss in sales and at the same time reduce on-line sales by making LDS purchases more attractive for customers. Generally, what LDS owners lost in margin and profit on individual sales, they would make up for in volume of sales. This would keep the dealer network healthy and at the same time keep prices fair and reasonable for LDS customers. If you reduce the appeal or the percieved need for an on-line product by improving the appeal of the LDS product, the on-line market for that product will reduce itself naturally.

[rmannix]

I had SP burned into my brain as the only serious reg there was when I taught for a SP store. The rest of the industry has caught up with and surpassed their perceived quality.
My next NEW reg will be something else, APEKS, Zeagle or Dive Rite. The rest of their product line (masks, fins, suits, BC's) is nothing special. I no longer think SP is worth it even at LP prices.
I'll get my new gear from my LDS which has been around for a long time and very close by. If my nearest LDS was a chain sporting goods store also selling golf or skiing crap then I would go online.

[garyfotodiver]

I had SP burned into my brain as the only serious reg there was when I taught for a SP store. The rest of the industry has caught up with and surpassed their perceived quality.

How can one surpass "perceived" quality? Quality is an objective, definable item, not some nebulous concept. Quality is designed into an item, not added to afterwards or tested for.

I trained with SP equipment, and I didn't find it any better than anything else I have used over the years. The Swimaster Polaris II regulator that I bought for $55 after certification worked just as well as the SP regulator I used in the pool and on my training dives. It took me to 110fsw on a nasty December day in the North Atlantic off the NJ shore.

[DA Aquamaster]

I trained with SP equipment, and I didn't find it any better than anything else I have used over the years. The Swimaster Polaris II regulator that I bought for $55 after certification worked just as well as the SP regulator I used in the pool and on my training dives. It took me to 110fsw on a nasty December day in the North Atlantic off the NJ shore.Well....That is a good example why shops might not want to use low end regulators in their rental programs - it can give a poor impression of the company's products as a whole as low end rental equipment does not compare well with higher end equipment.

And given that you certified in 1970, it is also a good example of how a low end Scubapro rental regulator in 1970 (probably an early production Mk 3) performed as well as an older top end regulator from another company. Despite your intent, if anything what you stated actually says something very good about Scubapro's reputation for quality and where it came from. And Scubapro was only 5 years old in 1970.

But your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the quality available in Scubapro's high end regulators today or even with the improved quality of their low end rental regulators now (Mk 2+ with an R190, R390 or R295 second stage) compared to 10, 20 or certainly 35 years ago.

Personally, I have used MK 2 R190's to 150 ft and on ice dives (and have also done the same with the older MK3 High performance) and dive with divers on a regular basis who use th Mk 2 R190 to 130 ft in cold water. I also test dove a customer's Mk 2 R190 for a weekend last summer with dives to 130 ft with upper 30/low 40 degree bottomtemps so my experience with one is actually recent.

In my experience, a Mk 2 R190 (the lowest end SP reg in production) peforms entirely adequately within recreational depths and is as good as or better than many regs of greater "quality" sold by other companies, particularly in ice diving conditions as it is very reliable in extremely cold water. To be honest it does not perform nearly as well as say, an Aqualung Legend (a high end Aqualung regulator), but then the Legend also does not perform as well as either the Scubapro Mk 17 X650 or Mk 17 G250 - and Scubapro (incorrectly) considers those both to be "intermediate" regulators compared to their Mk 25 X650 and Mk 25 S600.

[StSomewhere]

I've read about the original SP/Uwatec bendomatic nitrox computers and their "extreme reluctance" to actually do a recall in spite of the people who kept getting bent using the damned things. Hopefully they've learned a thing or two about this based on their experience and the experiences of other industries.

As far as factory replacement of batteries, I'll just add that there is a trust issue, you trust they will still be in business when you need the batteries replaced in the future. Now you can say that they are owned by a large corporation but as some of us know, large corporations (Enron, Worldcom, etc.) can self-destruct too. Plus, depending on where you live, will your LDS be in business and will they continue to be an authorized SP dealer? If not, what do you do?

The other issue is factoring in the time you are without your dive computer while its getting the factory battery replacement. This is not just a SP issue, the watch-sized Suunto lines have the exact same problem. I can't imagine why anyone would spend real money (big money!) on any dive computer -- SP or otherwise -- that requires a trip back to the factory for something as simple as a battery replacement. The Uwatec BT are the exception, since they are more of a disposable item.

[garyfotodiver]

Well....That is a good example why shops might not want to use low end regulators in their rental programs - it can give a poor impression of the company's products as a whole as low end rental equipment does not compare well with higher end equipment.

And given that you certified in 1970, it is also a good example of how a low end Scubapro rental regulator in 1970 (probably an early production Mk 3) performed as well as an older top end regulator from another company. Despite your intent, if anything what you stated actually says something very good about Scubapro's reputation for quality and where it came from. And Scubapro was only 5 years old in 1970.

But your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the quality available in Scubapro's high end regulators today or even with the improved quality of their low end rental regulators now (Mk 2+ with an R190, R390 or R295 second stage) compared to 10, 20 or certainly 35 years ago.

Personally, I have used MK 2 R190's to 150 ft and on ice dives (and have also done the same with the older MK3 High performance) and dive with divers on a regular basis who use th Mk 2 R190 to 130 ft in cold water. I also test dove a customer's Mk 2 R190 for a weekend last summer with dives to 130 ft with upper 30/low 40 degree bottomtemps so my experience with one is actually recent.

In my experience, a Mk 2 R190 (the lowest end SP reg in production) peforms entirely adequately within recreational depths and is as good as or better than many regs of greater "quality" sold by other companies, particularly in ice diving conditions as it is very reliable in extremely cold water. To be honest it does not perform nearly as well as say, an Aqualung Legend (a high end Aqualung regulator), but then the Legend also does not perform as well as either the Scubapro Mk 17 X650 or Mk 17 G250 - and Scubapro (incorrectly) considers those both to be "intermediate" regulators compared to their Mk 25 X650 and Mk 25 S600.

I didn't write ANYTHING sbout the SP regulators being low-end; did you read something between the lines? As it was, we used the high-end reulators and this instructor tried to sell us the most expensive of everything SP. As I have written before, he "modified" other brands of equipment so they wouldn't work as well as they should. He sold these other brands of equipment, but he wouldn't honor the manufacturer's warrantees on them. They were GTTD; that is, guaranteed through the door.

I do not think that SP regulators are worth the money. That's my opinion based on my experience.

BTW, I took my training at a YMCA and should have received a YMCA c-card. I didn't.

Some things never change.

[scubapro50]

I on a ScubaPro MK10 that's 2o years old. The dive shop that sold it to me is no longer in business. No matter where I take it for annual service it cost between $40 and $50 for labor and parts ( o rings ). I have never had a major problem that required a complete overhaul requireing major replacement of "free parts". The one thing you can say about ScubaPro regulators if you take care of them then they seem to last a long time. That's why you see so many older models on Ebay for sale. As far as computers go your right about not buying a dive computer that has to be sent back to the maker to change out a battery. I seen too many poor divers get off shore or out of the country to see thier $$$ computer die because of low battery. That's why I like the computers that you can purchase a battery at any dive shop or even Wal Mart and replace it yourself. ( I usually carry a spare battery when traveling and have been known to give it to another diver in need.

[dirthead]

What I heard from our LDS a couple weeks ago was that SP was going to start tracking serial numbers on larger reg orders (20 or more?) to ensure they were being sold at the shops that were originally ordering them.

That seems to be a recognition that grey market regs are getting there from current authorized SP dealers rather than from ex-dealers liquidating stock, etc. and does seem to demonstrate a willingness to try to do something about it.

I bought a SP Mk25/S600 from my LDS in July, and registered the product on SP's website. Upon entering the serial number on the registration page, the name of my LDS popped up in the "dive shop purchased from" line. I didn't enter that information anywhere. It seems that at least in this case, SP is already tracking serial numbers, since they knew what LDS that reg set went to.

[Wayward Son]

dirthead, it may be that the data was provided by the LDS after the sale. My LDS sends registration in on every reg they sell. So I have no idea if the SP system had it in there from the distribution side, or if the LDS was prompt at getting it registered. They can do it online, to, AFAIK.

I dive a Mk5 that I bought new in spring on 1978. That would be 27 years old now. It's in the shop for service now, parts are mostly no problem. The only part that he can't get is the exhaust T, that they don't make. But all the internal parts are readily available, and some are considerably cheaper than they used to be.

[awap]

I dive a Mk5 that I bought new in spring on 1978. That would be 27 years old now. It's in the shop for service now, parts are mostly no problem. The only part that he can't get is the exhaust T, that they don't make. But all the internal parts are readily available, and some are considerably cheaper than they used to be.

Last I checked, exhaust Ts for the R109 are still available (Black only and a somewhat newer design). I've got one on order now so hopefully I will be able to confirm in a week or 2.

BTW, still no response to my question from SP about the warrenty. I'm beginning to think they may just be blowing me off. Or maybe the answer is not as simple as previous answers to similar questions. I'll keep you posted.

[Wayward Son]

Lemme know what you find out. I'd like to buy a spare for this reg, as I've managed to pop mine off while boat diving before. Fortunately in the boat so I found it.

But I won't sell this reg. My dad gave it to me for a birthday present. While he's since passed on, his gift is still keeping me alive in the water, something he personally would never try doing. But he supported my interest in diving since it 1st manifested when I was 10, so I plan to keep this reg in service & use as long as I can.

[DA Aquamaster]

I bought a SP Mk25/S600 from my LDS in July, and registered the product on SP's website. Upon entering the serial number on the registration page, the name of my LDS popped up in the "dive shop purchased from" line. I didn't enter that information anywhere. It seems that at least in this case, SP is already tracking serial numbers, since they knew what LDS that reg set went to.I decided to register my recently acquired regulators on-line last night. When I registered the two MK 17's I purchased in late September, the LDS name popped and I know for a fact that the shop owner did not do anything to register them, so SP is definitely tracking specific regulators. The Scubapro site also asked for the purchase price, so they have the potential for the customer to report any discount pricing that may occur under the MAP.

When I registered an X650 second stage, I purchased about a year ago, the serial number immediately came up as "invalid" and the system prompted me to e-mail Scubapro with specific information to complete the process. I am not sure what happened here, but I supect the 12 month delay between sale and registration has not helped at all and/or the shop owner may have registered the reg on-line. I really doubt it, as I have never seen Mike do that before, but maybe.

And when I registered a discontinued and new old stock Mk 20 D400 I purchased in July, the model number popped up with options to register the first stage, second stage or both, but it also said "dealer unknown". After entering this information, and the less than MAP purchase price (which was dealer cost plus 10% and was in fact allowed by the dealer agreement as the item was discontinued) it then decided this serial number was also invalid and prompted me to e-mail Scubapro. This reg had been sitting in another shop since 2001, so I suspect that SP had not been tracking regs at that time (Dealer Unknown) but that the system also flagged the less than MAP price for the item.

My conclusions from this very limited test are:

1. Scubapro is definitely tracking individual items shipped to specific dealers.
2. They did not do so a few years ago.
3. Their system has some rules in place to flag suspicious registrations.
4. If an authorized dealer is selling under the MAP, they are going to have to take care of the registration for the customer or the customer is going to report the excess discount when they register the product.

[awap]

Lemme know what you find out.

Is your 2nd stage the R109 (Adjustable or Balanced Adjustable) or the HP (forefather of the R190)?

[Wayward Son]

I think it's an R109. It's chrome plated brass with an adjustment knob on the left. The exhaust T simply snaps over a round exhaust port on the body, a friction fit.

Sea Diver uses bench seats. What I learned the hard way is that if I end up on the end of the bench, my 2nd hangs far enough down for the T to snag when I stand up, which pops it off the reg. Now that I know what's happeneing I can be sure to avoid the problem, but it still seems a good idea to have a spare, just in case I suffer a brain fart & lose the part one day :D

[awap]

I think it's an R109. It's chrome plated brass with an adjustment knob on the left. The exhaust T simply snaps over a round exhaust port on the body, a friction fit.

Sea Diver uses bench seats. What I learned the hard way is that if I end up on the end of the bench, my 2nd hangs far enough down for the T to snag when I stand up, which pops it off the reg. Now that I know what's happeneing I can be sure to avoid the problem, but it still seems a good idea to have a spare, just in case I suffer a brain fart & lose the part one day :D

OK. But you will also need hot water and K-Y Jelly. I don't know about you, but if I try to put K-Y Jelly in my save-a-dive kit, I'd be in hot water. My solution to such diving "emergencies" is a complete spare reg in my save-a-dive kit. Reqardless of what happens, time from reg problem to fixed and ready to go is under 5 minutes.

[Wayward Son]

Yeah, it is now possible for me to take a spare reg. That is only recently true, but it's my preferred system.

The times I lost the T I didn't know it until hunting on the bottom. I 'solved' the problem by switching to my octo for the rest of the dive. The reg breathes fine without the T, but the bubbles make it hard to see to shoot anything. Made for a good excuse to give the octo a solid workout, compared to my normal swap for the safety stop drill.

[awap]

Yeah, it is now possible for me to take a spare reg. That is only recently true, but it's my preferred system.

The times I lost the T I didn't know it until hunting on the bottom. I 'solved' the problem by switching to my octo for the rest of the dive. The reg breathes fine without the T, but the bubbles make it hard to see to shoot anything. Made for a good excuse to give the octo a solid workout, compared to my normal swap for the safety stop drill.

I'd bet you could fashion an "emergency" T from a 5 or 6 inch section bicycle tube. Wouldn't take as much room and would save you about $20.

[Wayward Son]

True. I'm not so worried about a temporary loss, where I find it again. I'm more concerned with a real loss requiring a replacement.

[rigdiver]

Watching what is an ongoing movement, I am going to purchase my own compressor as I don't think the LDSs are going to last. If a Ranger costs a dealer $400, and LP forces them to sell for $449, how can they stay in business keeping stock and staff available on demand and the overhead of a store.
Think WalMart in a small town...
You hit the nail on the head. I had customers bring in mail order magazines showing what they could buy equip. for. I had people come in and take an hour of our time trying things on with no intention of buying. They went and ordered from LP or some other source.
Bill as in ex dive store owner

[rigdiver]

I guess the only way any of us can answer this question about warranty is purchase a ScubaPro product at ScubaToys and send in all the required paperwork ... then take it to a current ScubaPro dealer and see if they will perform work under warranty ....
Dan;
I think you have a great idea there. You need to do this as I know you need to update your equip. See if SP will service your 30+ yr old regs. I know you must've filled out the paperwork on them in the '70's.
Bill

[waynne fowler]

I bought a SP Mk25/S600 from my LDS in July, and registered the product on SP's website. Upon entering the serial number on the registration page, the name of my LDS popped up in the "dive shop purchased from" line. I didn't enter that information anywhere. It seems that at least in this case, SP is already tracking serial numbers, since they knew what LDS that reg set went to.

It supposed to be flagged and tagged to a dealer when the regulator is shipped from the factory.. This has been in place for 2 years at least but they have only in the last year really started following through with it. Still many times when I go to register a customers reg set, they will have it messed up and I'll have to call them up and get them to flag it for our store.

[yknot]

1. Scubapro is definitely tracking individual items shipped to specific dealers.
2. They did not do so a few years ago.
3. Their system has some rules in place to flag suspicious registrations.
4. If an authorized dealer is selling under the MAP, they are going to have to take care of the registration for the customer or the customer is going to report the excess discount when they register the product.
Your experience also shows that there may be ways to circumvent adherence to certain policies but it continues to perpetuate an outdated way of doing business. Can you point to a single VALID reason as to why SP would continue in this way? Suppose a new diver, unaware of warranty and service issues, stumbles on LP's website and purchases some SP gear at a substantial discount. After they receive the gear, they go online at SP's site and find that their registration will be invalid because they didn't buy from an authorized dealer. Does this somehow endear dive consumers to your brand? The old arguments tend to be about life support equipment, or no fills when the LDS's go broke. If these arguments are true, why isn't Europe full of dead divers, as they can buy online and how can the people who run the fill stations at local quarries and such afford to operate whithout gear sales and cert classes?

[robway034]

I am a long time SCUBAPRO "fan" so to speak. One of the biggest attractions is the warranty. With that being said, isnt the warranty null & void if its purchased online? The other question is, how are these grey market dealers getting the product,to sell, in the first place?

[awap]

I tried that yesterdy (1:30, central). I sent the following email to the "contact us" address ('swarranty@johnsonoutdoors.com') from the SP site FAQ section dealing with warrenties and online sales:

"I have located a dealer (Scubatoys in Texas) who claims to be an authorized Scubapro dealer and is offering the Mk25/S600 for sale over the internet. Is this an authorized dealer and will this regulator be covered by the Scubapro warrenty. I would appreciate your quick response.

Thank You,"
.

Thank you for contacting us with your warranty query. Your confidence in SCUBAPRO products is sincerely appreciated.



Scubatoys of Texas is no longer an authorized SCUBAPRO dealer. However, because this is a somewhat recent occurrence, we are honoring warranties on products purchased from Scubatoys within the next few months. Please refer to our website – wwwscubapro-uwatec.com – for future servicing information and listing of authorized dealers.



Sincerely,



Mario Valenzuela

Sales Director

SUBAPRO UWATEC - Americas


So I guess we can see some of the difference between "may not" and "will not".

[scubapro50]

Back then the company would give you a postcard to get stamped by the dealer showing you had your annual service work done .... sometimes a company would issue a plastic credit card like warranty card with your name, model and serial number on it. Guys I do have newer stuff ...... I sent in two old Dacor regulators using the Dacor/Mares trade in program and now own 2 new Mares 05 Abysses ....... this brings my total up to 9 regulators (7 different models) now rangeing in age from the 60's to those 2005 Abysses. One of these days (in about 20 years or so) I'll be unable to dive and have one hell of a sell on Ebay ....

[rmannix]

Got a few myself, the altar:

http://rmannix1.home.comcast.net/images/altar.jpg

[mdb]

Got a few myself, the altar:

http://rmannix1.home.comcast.net/images/altar.jpg

rmannix: What a great "altar", how about a list?

[DA Aquamaster]

Regarding the failed on-line registrations, I got an immediate (1rst business day response) from Scubapro and they indicate the warranty cards are on the way.

So at least their tracking efforts are not making life overly difficult for the customer, they just seem to want to confirm that it was bought at an authorized dealer.

---

I still have the original warranty "credit" card for my first Scubapro Mk 3. Dealers used to just slide it through a credit card machine to imprint the information on the service slip.

[rmannix]

rmannix: What a great "altar", how about a list?

Maybe we can do a "show yer stuff" thread.

[DA Aquamaster]

The current list of fully functional regulators:

The currently used stuff
2 Mk 17 DIN D400's (current back gas regs)
4 Mk 3 DIN Balanced Adjustables (used as deco regs)

The could be useful stuff
1 Mk 25 X650 (bought for evaluation)
2 Mk 20 DIN D400's (previous back gas regs)
2 Mk 15 D400's (prior to the previous back gas regs)
2 Mk 10 D300's (rescued off e-bay)
3 Mk 10 Plus Balanced Adjustables (because you can never have too many)
2 Mk 10 Balanced Adjustables (same as above)
1 Mk 3 High Performance (my first reg)

The semi-collectible stuff:
1 Mk 5 Air 1
3 Mk 5 High Performance
1 Conshelf XII first, second and octo

The collectible stuff:
1 Conshelf XI first and second stage
1 US Divers Deep Star first and second stage
2 US Divers DA Aquamaster double hose regulators
1 US Divers DW Mistral double hose regulator (my favorite double hose reg)

The odd bits and pieces
1 Mk 10 first stage
1 Mk 5 first stage
1 Sherwood second stage (old but never used)
1 Dacor Viper second stage
1 Tusa Duo Air

[scubapro50]

The current list of fully functional regulators:

2 Mk 17 D400's (current back gas regs)
1 Mk 25 X650 (bought for evaluation)
2 Mk 20 D400's (old back gas regs)
2 Mk 15 D400's (older back gas regs)
2 Mk 10 D300's
3 Mk 10 Plus Balanced Adjustables
1 Mk 10 Balanced Adjustable
1 Mk 5 Air 1
3 Mk 5 High Performance
4 Mk 3 Balanced Adjustables (used as deco regs)
1 Mk 3 High Performance (my first reg)
1 Mk 10 first stage
1 Conshelf XI first and second stage
1 Conshelf XII first, second and octo
1 Sherwood second stage (old but never used)
1 Dacor Viper second stage
2 DA Aquamaster double hose regulators
1 DW Mistral double hose regulator
...... Good collection .............. how you decide which one to use ?

[scubapro50]

I wish I could get my stuff that organized .... my collection takes up 2 closets and part of the garage ....

[scubatoys]

Your experience also shows that there may be ways to circumvent adherence to certain policies but it continues to perpetuate an outdated way of doing business. Can you point to a single VALID reason as to why SP would continue in this way? Suppose a new diver, unaware of warranty and service issues, stumbles on LP's website and purchases some SP gear at a substantial discount. After they receive the gear, they go online at SP's site and find that their registration will be invalid because they didn't buy from an authorized dealer. Does this somehow endear dive consumers to your brand? The old arguments tend to be about life support equipment, or no fills when the LDS's go broke. If these arguments are true, why isn't Europe full of dead divers, as they can buy online and how can the people who run the fill stations at local quarries and such afford to operate whithout gear sales and cert classes?

I have no problem with a company setting a policy. Now personally, I think a reasonable on line MAP price policy and allowing on line sales is fair. But I do carry brands like Atomic that I'm not allowed to sell on line... But they are consistent. There are none at the European on line sellers, none at LP. If a company wants to set that policy, just make it universal, and offer a level playing field for all and enforce it... that was all I ever asked of ScubaPro, or any other brand we carried.

It was good to see Mario say they would honor all our warranties.. Who knows.. Maybe this whole episode will force them to take another look at their policies, and come up with something that is fairer for all their retailers.

[rmannix]

1 USD West Pico Mistral 2 hose (1958) Pre serial numbers
1 USD DA Aquamaster 2 hose (West Warner square label) Long yoke ca. 1968
1 USD Round label Aquamaster 2hose, purchased new in 1973
1 USD Round label Royal Aquamaster 2 hose ca. 1973
1 USD Calypso J, early 60's. Old second stage with tiny exhaust
1 Nemrod 1963 Snark 2
1 USD Conshelf 12
1 Voit MR12, mint
1 AMF Swimaster MR12
2 USD Conshelf 14's, both early 80's 3/8 HP ports
1 1981 Sherwood Magnum
1 Scubapro Mk 5
1 Scubapro Mk 10
1 Scubapro Mk 7, 3000 squared yoke
1 Scubapro Mk 7 3000 heavy yoke, 3/8 HP Port
1 Scubapro Mk 7, Heavy yoke, 7/16 HP port, SPEC ambient ports
4 Scubapro Balanced Adj 2nd stages, 1 in orange
2 Scubapro AIR1 2nds
1 Scubapro G250 Graphite 1st gen 2nd
1 Mares MR12 DFC Proton from 2002. The Proton 2nd is now used as an octo. I use my G250 as the primary on this reg.
1 Dacor Pacer XL 2nd
1 Sherwood Octo
1 USD Octo (brass)
2 Scubapro Air2's, 3rd Gen
1 Tusa Duo-air

[Wayward Son]

In use:

1 Mk 5 with an R380 octo
1 Mk 2/ R190 (wife uses an AIR2 on her BC)

New in box, might keep it or trade it (just won at Christmas party):
1 Mk 2/ R190

I also have an R190 octo, NIB, that will be installed on one of these:

In transit to me:

2 Mk10 / D400 sets bought embarassingly cheap from a friend. He may also have put a couple of AIR2's in the box, he wasn't real clear about that. I don't need them, but if he sent them no problem.

[awap]

I'm keeping myself, wife, and one adult daughter in regs:
3 x Mk20
2 x Mk10
1 x Mk7 (Hvy Yoke, 7/16 HP)
3 x Mk5 (2 w/Hvy Yoke & 7/16HP, 1 w/"3000" yoke & 3/8 HP)
2 x Mk2
1 X mK2+
2 x S600
1 x G500
2 x R190
2 x R380
4 x Air2, 3rd Gen
3 x R???, Balanced Adj (1 chrome cover, 2 mat covers)
4 x R109, Adj

Wife dives a Mk20/S600/Air2.
Daughter dives a Mk20/S600/R190.
I'm currently alternating between Mk7/Bal Adj/Adj and Mk5/Bal Adj/Adj. In local shallow river I use Mk5/Adj. I'm getting ready to put a Mk10/Bal Adj/Adj back in service. Mk2/G500 was on pony but will swap the G500 with a R380. One Mk2 dedicated to tire inflation. I harvested 2 set of orange rubber from the R109s. I get the impression that the orange stuff carries a premium on e-bay. I just can't see any other reason for the high prices some older reg have brought.

[yknot]

I have no problem with a company setting a policy. Now personally, I think a reasonable on line MAP price policy and allowing on line sales is fair. But I do carry brands like Atomic that I'm not allowed to sell on line... But they are consistent. There are none at the European on line sellers, none at LP. If a company wants to set that policy, just make it universal, and offer a level playing field for all and enforce it... that was all I ever asked of ScubaPro, or any other brand we carried.

It was good to see Mario say they would honor all our warranties.. Who knows.. Maybe this whole episode will force them to take another look at their policies, and come up with something that is fairer for all their retailers.

Setting a policy and then sticking to it at least eliminates the current hipocracy (sp?). Please be aware, however, that MAP policies are illegal. I know this because the FTC's website specifically contains statements as to that fact. The reason is because MAP policies can never be defended as benefiting the public and only exist to restrict a market and decrease or eliminate competition. As far as online sales, if a company wishes to restrict them than that is their business, but again, to what purpose? All the reasons I've ever heard for not allowing net or mail order sales don't stand up in the real world. I personally want to endorse and support companies that at least consider me, the diver, as the real customer and believe I am intelligent enough to buy a product and use it without having to pay for any unneeded additional services.

[scubatoys]

Setting a policy and then sticking to it at least eliminates the current hipocracy (sp?). Please be aware, however, that MAP policies are illegal. I know this because the FTC's website specifically contains statements as to that fact. The reason is because MAP policies can never be defended as benefiting the public and only exist to restrict a market and decrease or eliminate competition. As far as online sales, if a company wishes to restrict them than that is their business, but again, to what purpose? All the reasons I've ever heard for not allowing net or mail order sales don't stand up in the real world. I personally want to endorse and support companies that at least consider me, the diver, as the real customer and believe I am intelligent enough to buy a product and use it without having to pay for any unneeded additional services.

Actually, MAP policies are not illegal. You can have "vertical pricing support" without breaking the law as long as things are worded right. Like in this situation, selling a line to us for years, then a manufacturer can say we no longer ship you, but cannot stop me from selling it on line with a warranty. They just no longer ship me more product. If they were to try to discredit our company, or void warranty, then it would be a violation according to the DOJ attorneys that I met with... In this situtation, they can choose to not sell to those who don't want to play that game... and that is legal.

[daniel f aleman]

Actually, MAP policies are not illegal....with... In this situtation, they can choose to not sell to those who don't want to play that game... and that is legal.

Yep.

The internet will change all retail in some form, but, Walmart ain't going away soon.

Larry, what are the specific reasons Scubapro (and any other manufacturers) gave you as to why they will not allow online sales from a retailer?

[scubatoys]

Yep.

The internet will change all retail in some form, but, Walmart ain't going away soon.

Larry, what are the specific reasons Scubapro (and any other manufacturers) gave you as to why they will not allow online sales from a retailer?



They say it is to help protect the local store with price controls on the product. I don't understand why adhering to a MAP policy and allowing net sales would not accomplish the same thing - but they say they are worried it would affect the local small dealer.

[yknot]

They say it is to help protect the local store with price controls on the product. I don't understand why adhering to a MAP policy and allowing net sales would not accomplish the same thing - but they say they are worried it would affect the local small dealer.
In general, any move by a retailer, manufacturer, dealer, etc., in which the end result is to "protect" the local store usually means some type of price control. BTW, what is "vertical price support"? The FTC has basically said that any move which is anti-competitive and not in the consumers best interest in these types of cases is illegal. Do a net search for Nine West and their former MAP pricing policy. The end result was a $30 million + settlement. In reading the basics, you could substitute "ScubaPro" for "Nine West" and not be far from the current situation. I bet a $30 million hit would be the end of SP. The dive equipment portion of Johnson Outdoor's revenues are listed as being down slightly for 2005. Incidently, I don't believe that there is any current link between Johnson Outdoors and Johnson&Johnson (floor wax).

[DivesWithTurtles]

... Please be aware, however, that MAP policies are illegal. I know this because the FTC's website specifically contains statements as to that fact. The reason is because MAP policies can never be defended as benefiting the public and only exist to restrict a market and decrease or eliminate competition. ...

Actually, MAP policies are not illegal. You can have "vertical pricing support" without breaking the law as long as things are worded right.

You are both sort of right it appears. And both sort of wrong it appears. Boy, is this gray territory. Look here (http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/If_a_company_does_not_allow_their_product_to_be_so ld_for_less_than_the_retail_price_they_set_is_this _price_fixing) for this very simplistic explanation:

Manufacturers have what are called the 'Colgate' rights with respect to their products meaning that they can maintain an 'MSRP' and refuse to sell to non-conforming retailers. However, they must enforce this policy fairly and without prejudice.

And look here (http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/anthony/aliabaps.htm) for this statement from a former Commisoner of the FTC:

An agreement between manufacturer and dealer or retailer on minimum resale price levels is per se illegal.(4) However, under the Colgate Doctrine,(5) established by the Supreme Court in 1919, a manufacturer may lawfully suggest prices and stop dealing with those who discount those prices, as long as it does so unilaterally. For example, manufacturers may suggest minimum prices (unilaterally) using a number of techniques, including:

- providing lists of suggested retail prices;(6)
- pre-ticketing prices on the product;(7) or
- advertising suggested prices directly to consumers.(8)

A manufacturer may cut off a discounter in response to complaints from other retailers, as long as it makes this decision unilaterally.(9) Generally, the FTC does not challenge cooperative advertising programs in which dealers must use manufacturer-supplied information, including resale prices, in the advertisements. However, when dealers pay for their own advertisements, they must be free to price the product at whatever level they choose.(10)


In other words, (it seems to me [I'm not in any way an expert]) a manufacturer can suggest a price, but they can't tell a dealer what price to sell goods for by prior arrangement. But, they can cut off a dealer that doesn't sell at the price they suggest as long as they cut off all dealers that don't sell at the price they suggest. Clear as mud.

[DA Aquamaster]

I don't understand why adhering to a MAP policy and allowing net sales would not accomplish the same thing - but they say they are worried it would affect the local small dealer.Setting a minimum price for on-line sales would be critical to making it work. But assuming it allowed enough margin for local low volume dealers to survive, it would work fine and the same price on-line or local would give the advantage to the local shop and it's greater level of service and lack of shipping costs to local customers and still allow phone/internet sales by both on-line and local dealers to people who are not near a scubapro dealer.

Changes like that would probably not please some local scubapro dealers, but it would allow them to compete and would be far better than the current systme with it's largely uncontrolled internet sales.

With regard to the impact on smaller dealers, part of the problem now is the different Scubapro dealership levels and the lower dealer costs given to large volume dealers. That needs to be addressed now and would also need to be addressed if on-line sales were allowed as it would prevent large on-line dealers from always having a few to several percent advantage in profit margin over local dealers who are already at a disadvantage in localities where they have to pay sales tax on local sales that are not also charged for internet sales. Add a few percent higher dealer cost paid by the low volume LDS to the 4% to 7% sales tax local shops often have to pay and you place the local dealer at a significant disadvantage even at the same selling price.

It's ironic that Scubapro is itself creating the incentive for small dealers to buy more than they can sell locally to improve their order numbers in order to qualify for higher dealership levels and lower dealer costs. You can bet the excess merchandise purchased ends up on the grey market as the smaller shop cannot afford to just sit on it.

My understanding is this year they moved the required sales numbers up and basically eliminated a middle dealership level which again provides even more incnetive for smaller shops to purchase excess merchandise and sell it to grey market retailers.

It's frustrating that the company's policies and stated objectives are such a mass of contradictions. You would think someone there could look at things from a systems perspective and understand the real impact these policies have. It's also a bit insulting that SP apparently thinks their dealers are too stupid to figure out how it really works.

[mdb]

It's also a bit insulting that SP apparently thinks their dealers are too stupid to figure out how it really works.

They are figuring it out-Like www.scubatoys.com

[awap]

In other words, (it seems to me [I'm not in any way an expert]) a manufacturer can suggest a price, but they can't tell a dealer what price to sell goods for by prior arrangement. But, they can cut off a dealer that doesn't sell at the price they suggest as long as they cut off all dealers that don't sell at the price they suggest. Clear as mud.

Does the concept of "dealers" include both authorized and unauthorized dealers? Does it include US dealers only or would the concept of dealers apply globally for a network of company supported international dealers? Obviously no rulings, just opinions.

[StSomewhere]

awap, part of the "problem" (and I'm using that word creatively here) is that the EU has a different set of governing rules than what is permissible in the US. So the global network with one set of rules doesn't work because there's more than one set of rules.

It was no accident that Aqualung (a French company that does business in the US) only bought the *US* marketing rights to Apeks and Suunto.

[DivesWithTurtles]

Does the concept of "dealers" include both authorized and unauthorized dealers? Does it include US dealers only or would the concept of dealers apply globally for a network of company supported international dealers? Obviously no rulings, just opinions.
SP can't cut off their unauthorized dealers under Colgate rights, because they don't sell to unauthorized dealers... ;) Uh, directly.

Sales to and by non-U.S. dealers are controlled by law in the dealer's contry, not the manufacturer's country.

[yknot]

Setting a minimum price for on-line sales would be critical to making it work. But assuming it allowed enough margin for local low volume dealers to survive, it would work fine and the same price on-line or local would give the advantage to the local shop and it's greater level of service and lack of shipping costs to local customers and still allow phone/internet sales by both on-line and local dealers to people who are not near a scubapro dealer.

Changes like that would probably not please some local scubapro dealers, but it would allow them to compete and would be far better than the current systme with it's largely uncontrolled internet sales.

With regard to the impact on smaller dealers, part of the problem now is the different Scubapro dealership levels and the lower dealer costs given to large volume dealers. That needs to be addressed now and would also need to be addressed if on-line sales were allowed as it would prevent large on-line dealers from always having a few to several percent advantage in profit margin over local dealers who are already at a disadvantage in localities where they have to pay sales tax on local sales that are not also charged for internet sales. Add a few percent higher dealer cost paid by the low volume LDS to the 4% to 7% sales tax local shops often have to pay and you place the local dealer at a significant disadvantage even at the same selling price.

It's ironic that Scubapro is itself creating the incentive for small dealers to buy more than they can sell locally to improve their order numbers in order to qualify for higher dealership levels and lower dealer costs. You can bet the excess merchandise purchased ends up on the grey market as the smaller shop cannot afford to just sit on it.

My understanding is this year they moved the required sales numbers up and basically eliminated a middle dealership level which again provides even more incnetive for smaller shops to purchase excess merchandise and sell it to grey market retailers.

It's frustrating that the company's policies and stated objectives are such a mass of contradictions. You would think someone there could look at things from a systems perspective and understand the real impact these policies have. It's also a bit insulting that SP apparently thinks their dealers are too stupid to figure out how it really works.
First, wouldn't the minimum sales price just be north of cost? Any attempt by SP to justify uncompetative business practices is going to backfire. Consumers now have substantial options to SP. Can anyone here confirm the type of year the dive industry has had, at least in general? It seems (to me, anyway) that recreational spending has increased in the last year but SP's parent company reports that dive equipment sales are down slightly from last year. Could this be at least partially due to their unwillingness to compete? Further verbage in their sales agreements and further restrictive practices won't increase market share.

[Wayward Son]

Competetive markets works. SP, Aqualung & others that are still sticking to the no online sales & other policies are going to lose market share to companies that choose to be more competetive.

It may take some years more, but assuming they feel it on their bottom line, at some point they will have to make changes & adapt.

The other option woul be that do not make any changes. If they can maintain enough market share & profits, they will be justified in doing so. Personally I think that if they do they will at best maintain, where most business would rather grow.

Oceanic made such changes last year. Other companies may do so next year.

[DA Aquamaster]

First, wouldn't the minimum sales price just be north of cost? Any attempt by SP to justify uncompetative business practices is going to backfire. Consumers now have substantial options to SP.Any minimum price would still need to allow enough margin for dealers to be able to pay for the overhead of running their shops.

Large volume on-line retailers who do not maintain a storefront or full service dive shop have an advantage there as they can sell items for not much over cost on a margin that would bankrupt local dive shops. Consequently, if/when on-line sales are allowed, there will still need to be price controls to ensure the LDS's have an adequate margin to stay in business. If you bankrupt your dealers, your parts and service support go down the tube along with your sales and that is in nobody's best interest.

Traditionally, the industry standard used to be a 100% margin, which for low volume sales of slow moving and expensive to stock items, may provide a 10% profit - not a lot but enough. However with many products, the margin is well over the industry standard and, in my opinion, Scubapro and other companies with excessive margins will need to substantially reduce the MSRP if they want to stay competitive. Their stuff is very good, but not all that much better than the competition, and things like warranty hassles on internet purchased equipment detracts from the over all value of the product.

I suspect that for many customers Scubapro prices are just too high and they are going elsewhere to purchase less expensive equipment. It's a question of making a lot of money off a few customers or making a little less money off each of a lot more customers. Once you get beyond the point of diminishing returns, sales drop off more than you can compensate for with price increases, which then only serve to further reduce sales.

I think part of the problem industry wide is that many advances have occurred to lower production costs (example: a one piece molded resin second stage case costing less than $3.50 to produce compared to the much higher cost of forming and/or machining at least four parts from brass, then brazing them together and chrome plating a brass case.) but those savings were never passed on to consumers, rather the company profits and dealer margins just increased.

[daniel f aleman]

Scubapro equipment is very expensive as compared to other modern equipment of the same ilk. But as BMW proves, some will pay for the security of a long established brand with a history of quality. But, Johnson Outdoors which owns Scubapro (a publicly traded company) has been losing money, even though revenues are up - not sure whether Scubapro specifically is losing money, BUT overall, their sales are down slightly.

Johnson Outdoors (http://www.johnsonoutdoors.com/)

Johnson Outdoors Inc. Announces Fiscal 2005 Fourth Quarter and Full Year Results

-- Diving sales were down slightly despite a strong performance in North American markets and favorable currency translation which did not fully offset weakness in international markets. The UWATEC(R) Smart Tec(TM) computer is on track to become the Company's most successful dive computer introduction in its history.



RACINE, Wis., Nov 17, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Johnson Outdoors Inc. (Nasdaq:JOUT), a leading global outdoor recreation company, today announced sales of $77.1 million for the fourth quarter ended September 30, 2005, an increase of 2% compared to $75.6 million for the prior year quarter. Net earnings for the quarter improved to a net loss of $3.4 million ($0.39 per diluted share) versus a net loss of $3.8 million ($0.44 per diluted share) for the prior year quarter. For the full year, the Company reported sales of $380.7 million compared to $355.3 million for fiscal 2004, representing a 7% increase year-over-year. Net earnings for the year were $7.1 million ($0.81 per diluted share), an 18% decrease versus prior year.

FOURTH QUARTER RESULTS

Fourth quarter results historically reflect a loss due to the slowing of sales and production of the Company's seasonal outdoor recreation products. Sales growth in the Company's core brands more than offset the expected decrease in military revenues for the quarter. Key changes included:

-- Diving revenues increased slightly due to solid growth in North America and favorable currency translation, as weakness in key international markets continued.

Total Company operating loss of $4.6 million in the fourth quarter was flat compared to the same period last year. Operating losses resulted due to a number of factors, including among others:

-- The significant drop in military sales compared with the prior year quarter resulting in a $2.9 million decline in Outdoor Equipment profits.

-- Increased commodity costs, particularly metal and resin costs affecting the Company's Marine Electronics and Watercraft divisions, along with higher freight charges.

-- Restructuring costs of $1.6 million compared with $2.5 million in the prior year quarter as the Company continues efforts to improve efficiency and profitability long-term in the Watercraft and Diving divisions.

The Company reported a net loss during the seasonally slow fourth quarter of $3.4 million or $0.39 per diluted share, an improvement over the net loss of $3.8 million or $0.44 per diluted share in the prior year quarter. An improved tax effect on losses in the current year quarter was the primary driver of the lower net loss.

[Swan1172]

It is interesting that SP is owned by Johnson Outdoors, which is a large conglomerate of several outdoor recreation companies. In taking a look at their website, http://www.johnsonoutdoors.com/, I noticed that few of their other brands are sold in the same kind of retail distribution channel as SP. For example, you can walk into just about any Dick's Sporting Goods store and buy a Eureka tent, Old Town canoe, Minn Kota trolling motor, or Hummingbird fish finder. What you can't find at Dick's is any SP equipment; not even fins, masks or snorkels.

I would like to know how closely SP is managed by Johnson Outdoors. I would guess that they are not very autonomous, and that a great deal of the marketing and sales decisions are made by the execs at Johnson.

Overall, Johnson posted total sales of $380.7 million in fiscal 2005, with diving sales comprising $79 million (20.75%). Compared to fiscal 2004, the change was less than 2%. So, they did not have that bad of a year with regard to their scuba sales.

[yknot]

It is interesting that SP is owned by Johnson Outdoors, which is a large conglomerate of several outdoor recreation companies. In taking a look at their website, http://www.johnsonoutdoors.com/, I noticed that few of their other brands are sold in the same kind of retail distribution channel as SP. For example, you can walk into just about any Dick's Sporting Goods store and buy a Eureka tent, Old Town canoe, Minn Kota trolling motor, or Hummingbird fish finder. What you can't find at Dick's is any SP equipment; not even fins, masks or snorkels.

I would like to know how closely SP is managed by Johnson Outdoors. I would guess that they are not very autonomous, and that a great deal of the marketing and sales decisions are made by the execs at Johnson.

Overall, Johnson posted total sales of $380.7 million in fiscal 2005, with diving sales comprising $79 million (20.75%). Compared to fiscal 2004, the change was less than 2%. So, they did not have that bad of a year with regard to their scuba sales.
Partly the answer is that trolling motors aren't sold in the same manner as scuba equipment. By this I mean that no one is going to tell you that if you buy your motor from an unauthorized retailer that death could result. ScubaPro continues to live by methods that have been shown to be out of line with the times. As an older line of equipment they are too dependant on the LDS's to get the gear into a perspective diver's hands. That way of thinking says you must maintain a strong dealer base regardless of what market forces are showing. Other brands have realized that the best way to expand market share is to make themselves as accessable and available as possible thru formerly non-traditional methods like the internet. If all of the LDS's suddenly ceased to exist tomorrow I bet a scuba aisle would suddenly appear at Dick's.

[Hollywoodivers]

In fact SP is making efforts to reduce on-line sales. I was told by our LDS owner that SP is now actively tracking purchases of larger quantities of regulators to ensure the shop that bought them is selling them on site. This is designed to prevent shops from buying quantities of regulators and then selling them to LP or other on-line dealers at discounted prices for re-sale on line. In effect, SP is trying to reduce the supply of grey market regs for on-line dealers to sell.
.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaahaaa

[rookers]

SP is paddling against a strong current. I have three SP regs and none of them were purchased at an LDS at 100% mark up. Two were bought online, one used, and the remaining one was purchased from an instructor friend. That plus the airspeed regulator maintenence guide, the available online diagrams, a few tools, and the readily available maintenence kits, and I have a lifetime of use. For those who do not want to do their own maintenence (that would be the majority), I am confident that options will present themselves. Artificially constraining this is never going to end up SPs way.

[cerich]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaahaaa

don't laugh too hard, eventually it makes you puke, just like thinking about it....

[jpsexton]

I suspect that for many customers Scubapro prices are just too high and they are going elsewhere to purchase less expensive equipment. It's a question of making a lot of money off a few customers or making a little less money off each of a lot more customers. Once you get beyond the point of diminishing returns, sales drop off more than you can compensate for with price increases, which then only serve to further reduce sales.

I was just in a SP shop saturday looking at BC's for my wife. It could have just been a sales pitch but the salesman said that ScubaPro is getting ready to have a price increase accross the board. :shakehead

[Hoosier]

don't laugh too hard, eventually it makes you puke, just like thinking about it....

OK... they put the serial number on the fin, too..

Let's see who win eventually. SP vs. modern trends....

[cerich]

I was just in a SP shop saturday looking at BC's for my wife. It could have just been a sales pitch but the salesman said that ScubaPro is getting ready to have a price increase accross the board. :shakehead

No sales pitch at all, from what I have heard the are going up 8% min. at wholesale, that should add considerably more at retail.

[JungleJoe]

All this hooo haaaa about Scubapro......

Larry I agree with what you did..............

After all It's been pointed out to me by a few people that Scubapro sells direct to Leisure Pro. In one report a person was in their back stock area and saw an actual invoice from Scubapro to Leisure Pro....... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I've spoken with their buyer and he admitted they purchase alot of products directly, He bragged, who is going to turn down an order for 100 regulators ??? (he has a point)... I was trying to negoiate a deal for a quantity of stuff, hence why I got bumped up the ladder. So I heard it with my own ears.....


As for the guy who was actually in the stock area... Too bad he did not take a picture of that invoice...... Now that would really stir the pot eh ????

If that got out and ALL of the scubapro dealers saw it, what would they do ????? follow Larry ???? I wish that'd happen...

[ReefHound]

As for the guy who was actually in the stock area... Too bad he did not take a picture of that invoice...... Now that would really stir the pot eh ????

As I was reading your post that's the first thing that popped into my head, what if he took a photo (or stole it) and plastered it all over the internet? How would SP go into damage control? Allege it was counterfeit? File lawsuits to force it removed? Abort their MAP policy?

I heard that the fall of the Berlin Wall was a govt. screwup, that the Soviet legislature intended no such thing but a lower level figure misinterpreted a clause.

[squidster]

L- Pro And Other Online Scuba Dealers Are Selling Scuba pro on Line ,They Tell You If You Need Maintanance or Service Which in the case of scuba pro its parts for life program ,You have to send the Reg. To Them.
I think Tracking sales is stupid When all they have to do is go on line and see for them selves.
I called A dealer on line to see abut a MK17 Reg. and The Person I talked To Was Ready To Take My order on The Spot.
They are always alot lower priced then the LDS.
And If You Do Buy A scuba Pro On Line The LDS Will Not Give You The Friendly Service He Would Normally Give, AND THATS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!
I dont Blame Them Because The LDS Has To Stay In Buisness And Its To Your Best Intrest To Keep The LDS Open.Thats Why I Purchased My Reg There.
What I dont Like Is When Local Dealers Say Are Hands Are Tied We Have To Sell You A MK 17 For 430.00 + And Then You Get On Line And Can Get The Exact same Reg. For 315.00 Why Cant The LDS Split The Differance, Instead divers have to buy lower performance Regs In order to support LDS,Thats Not Looking Out For Your Clients. AT ALL!
Scuba pro Needs To Get A handle On This Problem!
I have Been In The Sales Buis Along Time And If You Think That Scub Pro Is Going To Stop THese Big Retailers An Risk Volume Sales You Are Dreaming,But I do Think That They Should Make Thier YES MEAN YES AND THEIR NO MEAN NO TO ALL OF THEIR DEALERS.
And Quit Turning A Blind Eye.
Their Regulators Are Some Of The Best Out There , Thats Not The Issue,Thats Why I wanted Scuba Pro And I Purchased Scuba pro And Supported My LDS!

[scubapro50]

I talked to a Scubapro rep a few years ago and he said (OFF THE RECORD) that internet sales made Scubapro big bucks. The company sold their products thru "grey market" outlets and didn't have to service or support them with warranties. This not only made money upfront (sells of new products) but also on the backend (no warranty cost). All the company had to do is "talk" about no aurthorized sales thru the internet would be allowed and how the only way to get a "Scubapro" lifetime warranty would be thru your local dealer. Small LDS would be hit hard if they didn't follow their "signed contracts" but there was little the company (Scubapro) could do to stop independent dealers from selling their merchandise.

[Gradual Ascent]

I vote with my dollars, and Larry and Scubatoys have recently gotten several different orders from me. He and his staff are helpful, responsive, and offer sound experienced advice. In fact, I placed another order today. I tried several LDS's and have given them some business too. But, the majority has gone to Scubatoys. Honest direct, straight shooters. That works for me.

[awndray]

I don't post much around here, but I just saw this while doing a random search for regulators. I realize I'm reviving an old thread, but this is what came up when I searched SB for this subject. I noticed the date in the letter. Apparently the policy is only two days old. Is this old news?


Grey-Market Letter From Scubapro / Uwatec

This letter specifically addresses Leisure Pro, New York.

Thank you for considering SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment.

Please be aware that Leisure Pro, New York is not, nor has ever been, an authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealer.

Leisure Pro obtains our products through "gray-market" sources and not from our factory. We have no way of assuring the ultimate consumer that any item purchased via this source has not been tampered with or modified. Nor can we assume that our product has been properly tested and inspected. As such, SCUBAPRO UWATEC does not extend any warranties on its products purchased from Leisure Pro or any other "unauthorized” dealer.

As of October 15, 2011 SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA allows authorized retailers to sell via the internet or via mail order. We maintain a minimum pricing policy that our authorized dealers adhere to.

All "unauthorized" SCUBAPRO UWATEC dealers, like Leisure Pro who obtained SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment obtained through "grey-market" channels other than SCUBAPRO UWATEC Authorized Dealers does not carry the SCUBAPRO UWATEC Limited Lifetime/Limited Warranty. If you so choose to purchase SCUBAPRO UWATEC products from "unauthorized" dealers, the warranty will be voided.

If you still decide to purchased SCUBAPRO UWATEC equipment from anywhere other than an Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Dealership, we recommend that it be inspected by an Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Repair Center to be sure that it is operating and performing to SCUBAPRO UWATEC specifications

Leisure Pro may offer their own warranty on the equipment that you are considering, however, Leisure Pro has not been trained by SCUBAPRO UWATEC nor is certified to perform maintenance on SCUBAPRO UWATEC or UWATEC equipment.

You can find an authorized dealer in your area at:
SCUBAPRO- Home (http://www.scubapro.com/)

Please feel free to contact us should you have further queries regarding this matter.

Best regards,

Patty Savinski

SCUBAPRO -
Product Registration
ScubaPro/Uwatec Gray Market Letter (http://www.scuba.com/resources/scubapro/)

[awndray]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/computers-gauges-watches-analyzers/344325-gray-market-vs-leisure-pro-2.html#post5369359

My sincere apologies. Apparently this is something that comes up on a regular basis. Please disregard.

[travelrider]

Actually, the timing of your post is quite appropriate, I think. Just yesterday I asked an LDS that's over 50 miles from me if they could make an exception to ScubaPro's policy and ship me some ScubaPro stuff if I called them -- to save me a trip to their store.

Surprisingly, they said, that as of "yesterday" (October 15) it wouldn't be an exception and that they were now free to ship ScubaPro products if they wanted to.

So, maybe times are changing and maybe we'll start seeing some ScubaPro online.