Artifact Arrest

[octotat]

Article (www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051208/APN/512080784&cachetime=3&template=dateline)

his was found in the Dixie Diver forum, but seems like it's relevant here.

[fire_diver]

Sadly this type of crap happens all too often. I see the evidense of this much more on the above water metal detecting part of my life though. First off, these jokes that they call laws are written by archealogists who think that nobody but them and their archy pals should be allowed to take ANYTHING out of the ground. Then they have these laws put before the legislators (who know nothing about archies or treasure hunting) and they say 'hmmm, sounds good to me'. Then BAMM we are now criminals for picking up an arrow head or civil war bullet from our own property. This is no exageration either. In some states it is now illegal to collect anything over 50 years old from your own yard, coinage is sometimes exempted. And park rangers typically become the archies' strong-arm. Park rangers at national battlefield sites have been known to harrass and intimidate detectorist on private property, outside the park boundaries.

The whole notion of 'they're stealing our cultural heritage' is so much crap. If the state wanted or cared about these historical items, they would recover them themselves. Instead they prefer to let us recover them, then take them away and say we broke a law (which 99.99% of people dont even know exist)

[archman]

In this case, it wasn't private property, but a river habitat patrolled by state officials.

Still, getting arrested for "theft" is lame. It's not like Massie was trespassing over a protected antiquities site; he just happened to pull up an old gun while diving. The man should be congratulated for recovering the artifact! Heck, that musket's now sitting somewhere at my university, probably being oogled by dozens of faculty and students!

[mike_s]

what part of this story leaves out is how the arrest happened.

They basically were waiting on this guy at the boat dock when he got back.

a DNR cop, regular cop and some other people. It was a political arrest.


I don't know the person involved, but he has a huge collection of artifacts
on display in his store I'm told. He'll show them to anyone i'm told.

Ironically, I think he "was" planning on donating them to the Alabama Historical
Society, which is part ot the group I think that had him arrested. (I
think that is correct, but not 100% sure).

[SwimJim]

I'm for preserving shipwrecks personally. If there are tools or rifles or coins laying around, leave them sit. Take photogaphs. Thirty years ago the wrecks around here were routinely looted. The items recovered were never seen again by anybody as they sat in peoples garages for the most part. There have been laws inacted and it has slowed the looting down, but it will never stop. If its something on your own land, its yours as far as I'm concerned. But if its on a paddle wheel steamer that went down in 1856 or a brig that went down in 1865, look at it, photograph it, but leave it on the wreck for others to examine. We wreck dive to see the wrecks. if some idiot destroys part of the wreck to recover a go***mn pickle jar all the divers that come after suffer. Yes it has happened. I'll get off my box now. Looting is one of my pet peaves though. Usually the national guard shoots those people. To bad I can't get that job as a diver. Its too important of a job to be left with the imbeciles who call themselves DNR.

Jim

[mike_s]

all kinds of additional info on this at this URL below.

note, it's in reverse order with latest info posted at top. so you'll
have to scroll to the bottom and read stories going upward for
them to be logical order

http://www.ssdsupply.com/current_events.htm

[octotat]

I'm for preserving shipwrecks personally. If there are tools or rifles or coins laying around, leave them sit. Take photogaphs. Thirty years ago the wrecks around here were routinely looted. The items recovered were never seen again by anybody as they sat in peoples garages for the most part. There have been laws inacted and it has slowed the looting down, but it will never stop. If its something on your own land, its yours as far as I'm concerned. But if its on a paddle wheel steamer that went down in 1856 or a brig that went down in 1865, look at it, photograph it, but leave it on the wreck for others to examine. We wreck dive to see the wrecks. if some idiot destroys part of the wreck to recover a go***mn pickle jar all the divers that come after suffer. Yes it has happened. I'll get off my box now. Looting is one of my pet peaves though. Usually the national guard shoots those people. To bad I can't get that job as a diver. Its too important of a job to be left with the imbeciles who call themselves DNR.

Jim

That point is well understood and I agree with it in some instances, like in the Great Lakes, or Truk where there is significant historical value, and the wreck and its artifacts can be visited by the many. But a musket on the bottom of a muddy river, that if not picked up will likely never be seen again, is a different story. Rivers are routinely dredged, or subjected to pipleine and dock constructions. Or floods will wash the artifact completely away or damage it shortly after its exposure on the river bottom. I personally would donate such an item as a musket to a museum, and I agree that no one should bring up anything they aren't prepared to conserve properly. The majority of artifacts in museums are actually found by non-acedemics. If we waited for archeologist to bring things like this and deep shipwreck artifacts, the museums and the science would suffer. For a good read on the subject, read about the recovery of the Wydah, and the recovery of the SS Republic and how private salvors contribute to scientific historical knowledge. Yet, read Daniel Lenihans book about his service with the Park Services Cultural Rescources Unit and it seems like a lot of worthless diving junkets on taxpayers dollars, the I learned absolutely nothing from.

[willydiver]

I'm for preserving shipwrecks personally. If there are tools or rifles or coins laying around, leave them sit. Take photogaphs. Thirty years ago the wrecks around here were routinely looted. The items recovered were never seen again by anybody as they sat in peoples garages for the most part. There have been laws inacted and it has slowed the looting down, but it will never stop. If its something on your own land, its yours as far as I'm concerned. But if its on a paddle wheel steamer that went down in 1856 or a brig that went down in 1865, look at it, photograph it, but leave it on the wreck for others to examine. We wreck dive to see the wrecks. if some idiot destroys part of the wreck to recover a go***mn pickle jar all the divers that come after suffer. Yes it has happened. I'll get off my box now. Looting is one of my pet peaves though. Usually the national guard shoots those people. To bad I can't get that job as a diver. Its too important of a job to be left with the imbeciles who call themselves DNR.

Jim
I'm for preserving shipwrecks personally. If there are tools or rifles or coins laying around, leave them sit. (Posted by SwimJim)

I guess you promptly replaced that anchor in your avitar back where you found it after taking a few photos.......

WD

[awap]

I guess you promptly replaced that anchor in your avitar back where you found it after taking a few photos.......

WD

ROTFLMAO

Nice arrowhead. And thanks for letting lots of folks see it. I may have to take some pictures of the stone tools I have found and post them.

[SwimJim]

Thats a commercial fishermans net anchor, never associated with any wreck.

Jim

[Snowbear]

I'm for preserving shipwrecks personally. If there are tools or rifles or coins laying around, leave them sit. (Posted by SwimJim)
Got a question.... if the shipreck was a commercial vessel, say from early 1900's and sank when hitting a rock in an area that very few divers will ever go, is subject to the ravages of saltwater corrosion and storm damage, yet has "artifacts" of historical or archeological interest that would be lost as the ship deteriorates while being reclaimed by the ocean, would you still feel this way? How do you propose to "preserve" these wrecks? What is so wrong with taking these "artifacts" after documenting via photos or video where they were found, regardless of what the taker does with them? Why deny everyone the coins and rifles when the ocean is going to reclaim them anyhow?

I agree than wrecks and their artifacts that are more accesible to divers less subject to the ravages of time and nature be left intact as long as possible for all to enjoy, but what about the rest?

[SwimJim]

Got a question.... if the shipreck was a commercial vessel, say from early 1900's and sank when hitting a rock in an area that very few divers will ever go, is subject to the ravages of saltwater corrosion and storm damage, yet has "artifacts" of historical or archeological interest that would be lost as the ship deteriorates while being reclaimed by the ocean, would you still feel this way? How do you propose to "preserve" these wrecks? What is so wrong with taking these "artifacts" after documenting via photos or video where they were found, regardless of what the taker does with them? Why deny everyone the coins and rifles when the ocean is going to reclaim them anyhow?

I agree than wrecks and their artifacts that are more accesible to divers less subject to the ravages of time and nature be left intact as long as possible for all to enjoy, but what about the rest?

As I live on a large body of fresh water I guess my opinions are skewed that way. In cold fresh water even wood lasts for hundreds of years. If you expose it to air after its been down for many years it starts to deteriorate like right now. Even metal does this. Automobiles salvaged in the 70's off of car ferrys that sank in the 20's disintigrated almost immeadiatly. Artifacts in the great Lakes are best left in the freezer they sank in. That being said, the ocean is just the opposite. It tends to eat things. I don't think your going to find a 200 year old wooden schooner in the ocean. All your likely to find is a ballast pile. If artifacts aren't brought up they will be gone. At best they will turn into an unidentifiable mass of coral. There for in my opinion this calls for a different set of rules to fit a different circumstance.

jim

[Tom Yerian]

Swimjim: go to " heritage health index"

www.heritagepreservation.org/hhi/index.html.... This is an in depth report on the institutions crumbling failure, at protecting our cultural heritage. A diver, picking up an artifact, would do a better job at protecting what he found, then those who spout, ' "we are here to protect you from yourselves" take a look at how they protect our heritage!! To divers who find any artifacts, keep them!! Protect them yourselves, you are intitled to keep what you find, regardless of any unconstitutional law that is passed!!!....Capt. Tom

[naskatucket]

were is something preseved better, in the basement of some institution (that addmits failure to maintain) or in the home of a idividual who will treasure the artifact?

[LVX]

OK, here is one for you. I was the assistant project director for a shipwreck excavation in Matagoarda Bay off the coast of Texas. This is in saltwater mind you. The ship sank in 1685. That is over 300 years old. We found over 1 million artifacts. That is right 1 million.

This was also an area were very few divers ever went. Who is to say how long things will last underwater whether they be in fresh or salt water.

Archaeologist would love to go pick up everything and then have it all conserved and placed in a museum for everyone to see forever. Now, archaeologist don't have enough money to do this, state and federal governments don't have enough money to do this and the private sector doesn't have enough money to do this. Over time, more are being excavated or at least studied.

I know the argument, if left they will be destroyed. Well, if removed, are they any better off? Only the few who took them will ever know of their existence.

Just my 2 cents

L

[LVX]

in the home of a idividual who will treasure the artifact?

And, do these individuals who are picking up these artifacts have the information needed to properly conserve these artifacts? Are you sure? If would be very bad to learn by your mistakes especially if you only have one such artifiact. I have seen it more times than I care to where artifacts were placed on a mantle (sextant) or in the front yard (cannon) and left to rot.

Unless you know what you are doing, these artifacts are a goner.

L

[octotat]

And, do these individuals who are picking up these artifacts have the information needed to properly conserve these artifacts? Are you sure? If would be very bad to learn by your mistakes especially if you only have one such artifiact. I have seen it more times than I care to where artifacts were placed on a mantle (sextant) or in the front yard (cannon) and left to rot.

Unless you know what you are doing, these artifacts are a goner.

L


I do agree that if you don't plan or know how to conserve it, leave it be. If you do bring it up, keep it under water until you either find out how, or get someone (museum, university) to properly conserve it. Also, a diver should know if they can bring the artifact up without destroying it. A glass bottle is one thing, a musket with wood stock my break up just from handling if not done properly. I wish certifying agencies had a small section of the open water course to discuss how artifact collection is a complicated subject and to not just randomly pick things up and plunk them on their mantle to fall apart. Also it would be a great time to explaing to new divers that they could be breaking the law, and that the laws vary from state to state, country to country and even many local ordances that they may come across. I'm not suggesting a section on making an entry level diver an archeologist, nor telling them that recovery is a no-no, but just to make them aware of the issues surrounding object recovery.

[archman]

I'm more liberal, and do a lot of biological collecting. If it's on public lands and lacking religious/human body parts connotations, I say it should be fair game to the discoverer. Like paleontology, the bulk of archeological finds come from amateur collectors. Archaeologists fully realize this, but don't usually like it. There's an irony in that.

Many marine artifacts are commonly unrecognizable as such, being heavily encrusted. And if they are recognizable, few divers carry marker floats. If you don't retrieve it right then, odds are likely you won't ever.
Professional archaeologists are so incredibly thin on the ground, you may have to wait till kingdom come before one drops by.

[ItsBruce]

Here is my two-cents: If the find is something that won't be found again unless it is recovered, it should be recovered. If it is something easily locatable, it should be left. Thus, a wreck whose location is known or otherwise ascertainable should be left alone. A coin one finds in the sand in the middle of the ocean or the muck at the bottom of a big lake or river should be retrieved. Leaving it in place is equivalent to throwing it away. (Just think how much trash is disposed of by being dumped in the ocean.)

[naskatucket]

arrogant intellectual archeologists would have things lay on the bottom and rot into oblivion. common sense goes a long way in life. gold and silver are the same in water or out.

[docwascuba]

Well in my case ,bring it up.. I dive in nc and the wrecks are dissolving in the sand . due to currents and hurricanes. I can honor my artifacts better than if they sit in the bottom of the ocean. Sorry guys but i disagree more with spearfishing our oceans,than artifact hunting.es

[ItsBruce]

I'm sure glad I've been reading this thread. It saved me from a most grievious fate. We were fishing in Santa Monica Bay, in SoCal. We had gone out abut 12 miles from Marina Del Rey. After a couple of hours of no bites, we decided to pack up the rods and reels and do some diving. We were a bit past rec limits, when we came upon what may have been the archeological find of all times. I'm convinced it was the Holly Grail. I did not have any kind of marker and I thought about bringing it up. But, then I realized what kind of trouble I mightt get into for moving an artifact ... so l left it. Next time I go out, I'll bring a GPS or something so if something like this happens again, I'll at least be able to relocate the general area again. As it is, I could probable get within 3 or 4 miles of the spot again.

I hope the preservationists, archeologists and such are proud of me.

[ScubaToneDog]

I have a question. What is the Historical importance of a three masted schooner barge built in 1877 that went down carrying a load of iron ore in 1899, that was clam shell salvaged and dynamited? Now, what is the Historical importance of a 1977 Mac truck that Jack Knifed on I-90 in 1999 who's cargo of steel coils were salvaged by forklift? Most of these "historical" maritime vessel's were cargo carriers, barges, and Tugs. They built America, but so did the train, horse and buckboard and yes, the mighty Semi Truck. We preserve submerged sites that only a very small percentage of the population can visit. And for what? Ooooh look a boiler.....oooh look a lump of coal...get over it...Historical importance...I don't see it. I say take it as long as it doesn't require the assistance of a lift bag, or need to be detached from a wreck.

[moneysavr]

If every wreck site stuff was taken even just one nail! nothing in years will be left! got to look at it this way,other folks someday will dive thease sites, if its all gone in some ones basement,garage, then who wins? who see's the history??
We had a group of well being divers years back excavate/ float a old schooner that was just fine on the bottom of the lake,in several years she fell apart age caught up with her being yanked out of her time capsule and now it has been bulldozed!
It is a fact most folks dont give a D_M about a old dead eye,anchor,hook,and so on,,. It seems like the folks that are ______ dive! so make sense that divers see it!
Now that said I like bottles and a good place to find them is under piers & ship wrecks=but at piers trash was tossed and not part of a wreck,,.That said if I found one on a wreck I would not take it,But may stash it on the wreck as so some goof will not snag it!
Brad

[Tom Yerian]

OK, here is one for you. I was the assistant project director for a shipwreck excavation in Matagoarda Bay off the coast of Texas. This is in saltwater mind you. The ship sank in 1685. That is over 300 years old. We found over 1 million artifacts. That is right 1 million.

This was also an area were very few divers ever went. Who is to say how long things will last underwater whether they be in fresh or salt water.

Archaeologist would love to go pick up everything and then have it all conserved and placed in a museum for everyone to see forever. Now, archaeologist don't have enough money to do this, state and federal governments don't have enough money to do this and the private sector doesn't have enough money to do this. Over time, more are being excavated or at least studied.

I know the argument, if left they will be destroyed. Well, if removed, are they any better off? Only the few who took them will ever know of their existence.

Just my 2 centsL.... Well, the few to start is at least 3!! than the fews friends, that is a lot more! I left o the bottom, realistically, who will see the artifacts? So the public is being served by allowing private collections. If people wern't scared of showing their collections, more people would get interested and bring up more artifacts. Give people credit, were not stupid. I, and many people like myself have, and are keeping the things we find. If there was a different attitude with the Arch's.people would be more willing to cooperate with them! The Arch's just cut their own throats! They have forced a lot of people who invest a lot of time, money and the hard work involved to find these treasures, have nothing to gain by turning over info. They are not reimbursed for thir efforts, just kicked out, not even given credit with the discovery. The gov. has just created a new problem for themselves. They have made me and those like me modern day , PIRATES!!!....Capt. Tom

[archman]

I'm quoting U.S. antiquity law as it relates to regulated animal parts, but as I recall, artifacts have to be over 100 years old to qualify. So you can mess with that 1977 Mac truck all you want, so long as it's not an active crime scene. I think somebody would stick a sign on it if that were the case.

Typically historical artifacts look much better on the surface, where folks clean them up, research their significance, and stick 'em in collections or window displays at scuba shops or souvenir shops. Unless there's enough tangible salvage to qualify as a discrete *wreck*, little bits of junk on the seafloor really isn't of much diver interest.

No one should be looting wrecks though. That sucks.

[ScubaToneDog]

I'm quoting U.S. antiquity law as it relates to regulated animal parts, but as I recall, artifacts have to be over 100 years old to qualify. So you can mess with that 1977 Mac truck all you want, so long as it's not an active crime scene.

You miss my point...age aside, there is a romanticism connected with shipwrecks that makes everyone demand their preservation. Just like Lighthouses. At least Lighthouses can be enjoyed by more than 0.05% of the population. Preserving history like Pearl Harbor and the Titanic is one thing. Preserving the wreck of the schooner barge ??? is another. Preserving the structure is fine, but protecting a bottle or dish in the galley is a bit over reactive.

Take an 1870's train rusting away in a rail yard after a fatal collision....no one cares....bury it under a hill or sink it in the ocean or a lake and it becomes a protected archaeological wonder and a Discovery channel special...

[LVX]

arrogant intellectual archeologists would have things lay on the bottom and rot into oblivion. common sense goes a long way in life. gold and silver are the same in water or out.


I really take offense that this statement. I am an underwater archaeologist and don't consider myself arrogant. I fully realize there must be a symbiotic relationship but because there are divers with this kind of attitude, we will never see eye to eye.

You have no idea who I am or what I believe in regards to archaeological remains but you just lump all underwater archaeologist together. If I did the same and used you as the model for all scuba divers, I am guessing I would never speak to one again.

And by the way, silver is not the same in and out of the water unless it is fresh water.

L

[archman]

Preserving the wreck of the schooner barge ??? is another. Preserving the structure is fine, but protecting a bottle or dish in the galley is a bit over reactive.

The key difference between random artifacts on the seafloor and artifacts associated with a discrete structure (i.e. wreck) is that an archaeologist can interpret cultural uses/importances from the latter when they are located within a *greater historical context*. This is where all that fancy mapping and gridding seen on National Geographic comes into play. In such contexts, the original location of the artifact is often critically important. Analysis of structures and their (hopefully) undisturbed contents permits far greater analysis of the cultural period than a solitary object could ever do. A bottle stuck in the mud may be only useful as the artifact itself, but a bottle found in a ship's hold tells an archaeologist about the people that used the bottle, and life aboard ship.

Remember, archaeology is not merely the study of ancient artifacts, but the study of ancient cultures and civilizations. And most frequently, the best cultural information derives from dig sites representing everyday life of the period (i.e. generic schooner barge) rather than more unusual situations (King Tut's tomb, the Vasa wreck).

Most archaeologists are more interested in a collection of different pottery types than precious jewelry. They can get more and better info from the pottery. Weird but generally true. Although LVX likely knows a great deal more about this than I do.

[octotat]

With respect to individual artifacts in rivers or estuaries (as the original post in this thread was about), the State of South Carolina does a great job in bridging the peronal liberties and archeological concerns by issuing licenses and requiring declarations of recovered objects to be filled out. The review the information provided by the diver, and if interested, they may request additional information including photographs, or request to study the object. This really should be a model for other states. I do agree that if a particular section of a river is identified as historically/archeologically important, the state could set the area aside as off limits to anyone other than researchers. This shouldn't be sweeping however (i.e. entire length of a river). Compromise and education is the key to successfully allow divers to recover objects without trampling archeology.

[ScubaToneDog]

Ok...I see the philosophy of Archeolocical preservation. I dont buy it. I have debated the issue, based on the article that this thread originated on, in a metal detecting forum several months ago. Out west in towns like Carson city, Tombstone and Deadwood, treasure hunting in the towns old dumps, and many of the private trash holes and priveys on private property, is illegal. Why? Because of the cultural heritage contained there in. I personally find that a bit over the top. If it is of such important cultural heritage to document, catalog and map these things out, then why isnt it done? Because no one wants to shell out millions of dollars to find an old belt buckle.

You cant convince me that every wreck in the sea is of Historical interest or importance. The way the laws are going it will be illegal to dive any wreck soon. Keep stressing the point and recreational divers wont be able to dive anywhere...even the ships scuttled as artificial reefs...

[james croft]

I was diving a federal gunship sunk in the 1870's that is a protected site. I located a loose brass door lying on the bottom that I believe was a door to a powder magazine. I was salivating over it but I did the right thing and left it. Somebody else took it. No good deed ever goes unpunished. There has to be a happy compromise. I don't see government agencies actively searching for shipwrecks, although they are glad to call the shots once some "treasure hunter" spends a lot of time, research and $$$ locating one. Even when private salvors locate and preserve artifacts. archeologists complain, as was the case when Barry Clifford salvaged the pirate ship Whydah or when`Tommy Thompson salvaged the Central America. Can some one tell me what is wrong with a guy wanting a little piece of brass once in a while ?

[archman]

Out west in towns like Carson city, Tombstone and Deadwood, treasure hunting in the towns old dumps, and many of the private trash holes and priveys on private property, is illegal. Why? Because of the cultural heritage contained there in.
Yes, that is precisely it. For the exact same reasons that private collectors desire access to "dumps", archaeologists and historians want to keep those individuals out. "Dumps" are historical sites filled with artifacts deposited at discrete time scales, and their contents directly reflect consumptive usage of the period. They're a metaphorical gold mine.

What you are describing here is considered looting in many regions, and will be regulated as such. You will find few among the public sympathetic to deliberate scavenging on public lands, which is effectively what "treasure hunting" amounts to. It is too easily taken too far.

Private property, however, is more dicey. Realistically if one purchases the land, that should encompass manmade stuff on the land. Human remains excepted. What one is permitted to do/not do on private lands has always been a contentious issue, and artifact collecting tops the list.


I personally find that a bit over the top. If it is of such important cultural heritage to document, catalog and map these things out, then why isnt it done? Because no one wants to shell out millions of dollars to find an old belt buckle.
The presence of a historical site in no way implies a requirement to have an active archaeological dig taking place at it, nor a past one. What it does imply is that it is exempt from scavenging. The site is assured of remaining in a pristine state. When/if funds are secured for excavation (some are deliberately left as is), there you are.
Incidentally, most land excavations cost in the thousands of dollars. Unpaid volunteers donate their time, which is usually in the summer months when university faculty are freed up for field work. Most archaeology operates on shoestring budgets. Few archaeologists are full-time, either.


You cant convince me that every wreck in the sea is of Historical interest or importance.
Well, if you can't be convinced, why post to a discussion-based thread?


The way the laws are going it will be illegal to dive any wreck soon. Keep stressing the point and recreational divers wont be able to dive anywhere...even the ships scuttled as artificial reefs...
That's an odd thing to state. Artificial reefs are on the rapid upswing, not the other way around. Many of these reefs happen to be wrecks. Even wrecks not sunk intentionally are for the much greater part accessible for diving. You just can't be pulling them apart for mementos and eBay sales.

[archman]

I was diving a federal gunship sunk in the 1870's that is a protected site. I located a loose brass door lying on the bottom that I believe was a door to a powder magazine. I was salivating over it but I did the right thing and left it. Somebody else took it. No good deed ever goes unpunished. That's an enforcement issue. Most protected public lands suffer heavily from this. Misbehaviour from one private citizen in no way condones other private citizens to follow suit, however. You did the correct thing, both legally and ethically. The jerk who swiped the brass door committed a crime.


There has to be a happy compromise. I don't see government agencies actively searching for shipwrecks, although they are glad to call the shots once some "treasure hunter" spends a lot of time, research and $$$ locating one. Even when private salvors locate and preserve artifacts. archeologists complain, as was the case when Barry Clifford salvaged the pirate ship Whydah or when`Tommy Thompson salvaged the Central America. Can some one tell me what is wrong with a guy wanting a little piece of brass once in a while ?
Yep, you nailed it here. There has to be allowance for private collecting on at least small scales. And there is. Private salvage operations typically have permits to commercially sell certain artifacts. They understand this, which is why they operate. But they are known for cutting corners on their excavations in order to maximize potential profits. Some are known for not reporting all of their findings, either. Of course this will create bad blood with the scientists.

Private citizens are usually at a severe disadvantage regarding antiquities laws, as many localities have such convoluted, obscure regulations that you either are never aware of collecting restrictions, or you need to fill out enough lame paperwork to bury an elephant. That is a problem with the bureaucracy, which can often be ameliorated with sufficient public lobbying.

[ScubaToneDog]

Well, if you can't be convinced, why post to a discussion-based thread?

Whoa buddy....I am a member of this forum and have every right to post my opinion...as does every member here...Not just you...That's the beauty of it...lots of different opinions and Ideas...its not personal...do not go there!!!

I will not be convinced that the Archaeological world is right on the preservation of everything they Deem culturally important. You will not convince me that only some wrecks will meet the criteria of cultural importance, and that they will continue to be made available to the general public to explore and enjoy. They will be taken away from us.



Artificial reefs are on the rapid upswing, not the other way around. Many of these reefs happen to be wrecks. Even wrecks not sunk intentionally are for the much greater part accessible for diving. You just can't be pulling them apart for mementos and eBay sales.

Artificial Reefs can, and I predict will eventually, end up protected and off limits to divers along with all submerged lands through out the US, including natural areas, Quarry's, and Cave systems. Why? Because legal Precedent has been set. All it takes is one person to submit a motion to a states legislature and Poof....Recreational diving spots can disappear. Yes, even that pond in your backyard...The article this thread is based on should scare you.

Divers for the most part are very ethical when it comes to preserving wreck sites. Metal detectorists are also very ethical in their treatment of sites they shoot. Many Naturalists have ethics that are beyond approach....but there are fewer and fewer areas Naturalists can get away to because the public access lands are becoming more and more "off limits". Detectorists have little to no access to public lands, and private lands have local and state restrictions that have all but made them outlaws. That leaves Divers. You think we are safe? Think again.

[archman]

Whoa buddy....I am a member of this forum and have every right to post my opinion...as does every member here...Not just you...That's the beauty of it...lots of different opinions and Ideas...its not personal...do not go there!!! I did not say you couldn't post. I questioned your reasons for posting to a discussion-based thread, if you've already made up your mind. Which should not be construed as a personal attack, and in any event you've reiterated your position here:


I will not be convinced that the Archaeological world is right on the preservation of everything they Deem culturally important. You will not convince me that only some wrecks will meet the criteria of cultural importance, and that they will continue to be made available to the general public to explore and enjoy. They will be taken away from us.


Artificial Reefs can, and I predict will eventually, end up protected and off limits to divers along with all submerged lands through out the US, including natural areas, Quarry's, and Cave systems. Why? Because legal Precedent has been set. Artificial reefs are deliberately sunk for specific purposes. Any historical value they possessed has been already studied. Any valuable components have been removed. Archaeologists and historians have almost zero interest in artificial reefs. A properly prepped artificial wreck is little more than a gutted hull and superstructure. In any event the majority of artificial reefs aren't even ex-ships, but special-built structures.


Divers for the most part are very ethical when it comes to preserving wreck sites. The caveat here is "for the most part". As James posted earlier, looting happens. I've seen it, also.


Metal detectorists are also very ethical in their treatment of sites they shoot. Many Naturalists have ethics that are beyond approach....but there are fewer and fewer areas Naturalists can get away to because the public access lands are becoming more and more "off limits". Detectorists have little to no access to public lands, and private lands have local and state restrictions that have all but made them outlaws.
Public land access for purposes of ANY collecting should of course be regulated. Some areas should be (and are) off limits entirely. Others limit what/how much you take. Few people (outside collectors) have issue with this. Professional collectors get permits. So do the more zealous amateur ones. It is in many ways similar to fishing laws. One cannot run riot over public land snatching or digging up whatever they please. That leads to reduced resources, and THAT leads to tighter restrictions and outright closures.

Back to private lands, that's a separate issue. Artifact collecting should generally be up to the discretion of the landowner. States and localities view this differently throughout the U.S.. In any event there is hardly any private ownership of submerged lands, so it doesn't really apply to divers.

[ScubaToneDog]

You make it sound like everyone with a dive tank and/or a metal detector is bound to commit criminal looting. That is a very scary thing. Most museums have items on loan from private individuals who, in my opinion, saved these items from being lost forever. To label a diver who finds a virgin wreck and removes the bell as a criminal disturbs me.

By limiting access to public lands for any reason no longer makes them public land. Restrictions on private land makes them no longer private. By the continual restriction of rights and freedoms in the name of preservation we all lose.

Oh and if I am not discussing a topic here why do you keep responding...You seem to have your mind made up.... ;o)

Happy New Year...Im off to have a beer......

[ItsBruce]

As a slight digression, since I seem to keep getting in trouble over wreck diving and archeology, it seems apropos for me to put in my two more cents. Over the weekend, a boat in the local marina sank at its slip. The owner and marina operator undertook to raise it. I urged that it be left in place for its future historical value. When all was said and done, I was lucky not to have been arrested. So my question: Why shouldn't this particular wreck have been left alone?

[wreckdiver1715]

Whenever an ancient relic appears on the web for sale captioned by “from some old shipwreck we found“, I get a chill run up my spine. Not that some one other than me found a wreck, but that these artifacts are on the open market with out any sort of historical documentation. This is the exact reason that all treasure hunters should follow standard archaeology guidelines as required in the location that a wreck is discovered i.e., local and state laws. If the relic has been certified, it comes with a history that can be shared in public. As well as commanding higher price tags on the open market. This is important if you are running a small independent operation. Eventually you will have to sell off some of your finds just to pay the boats fuel bill. A certified wreck that has been salvaged legally will fetch about double that of a wreck with no name or history.

There is a general misconception by those academics in the Anthropology departments of many universities the world over, and in particular the state of Florida’s Department of Historical Resources (DHR), is that most all us so called “treasure hunters” go out, find a wreck, pilfer that which may not be ours (by legal definition), and sell it on eBay or some other, more nefarious method of disposing of ill-gotten gains.
This misconception, has led to a global campaign by the academic types to tighten the noose around the neck of the independent salvage divers all over the globe. Or, is it really a misconception?

Every time an item of this nature, that may or may-not be of archaeological significance, surfaces in the public eye, I can see “Them” (archaeologist), all standing in a group pointing at us all, and saying “See... I told you those so called “Treasure hunters”, are all just a lawless bunch of grave robbing, thieving, profiteering pirates for whom, all are only driven by the lust for big profit, with no respect for the law, no respect for world history, and no respect for society in general, they should all be damned, and put behind bars! Sounds harsh doesn’t it? Yet this is how they see us.

There is an element within our community that fits this description, and I would venture a guess that they are relatively few in number. There is little we can do about these folks, just wait and we will eventually read about them in the paper as there boat and all there treasure hunter gear ends up at a public auction.

Then there are the weekend sport divers, who are more interested a good time than anything else. Some of these folks routinely recover relics just for something to do. They collect Indian arrow heads, sharks teeth, portholes and other items from more modern wrecks. Some of these folks clean these items up, and turn them into lamps or other trinkets that can be found in little antique shops in most coastal towns. I would venture a guess that most of these folks are unaware of laws in there communities, and the fact that they are breaking the laws every day.

As for me personally, well I will continue with the hunt, and work within the framework of the law, yet I will be ever vigilant, and work whatever loophole in the law I can find to bend the law in my favor. If you are not happy with the laws of salvage, then I suggest that you start working to change the unfair laws that are on the books. This is the American way!

Q

[ScubaToneDog]

Wreck diver...Well put...Here in Ohio we have MAST, Marine Archeological Survey Team, who work very hard to document wrecks. These divers volunteer their time, money, boats, gear and even their homes as base camps, to the documentation of wrecks. After 10 years of petitioning the state and Coast Guard they were able to get permission and funding together to get 4 seasonal Marker Bouy's on 4 popular wrecks. No more hooking the wreck with your anchor, and they are easy to find now too.
deeply
The laws up here are not as crazy as elsewhere in the country in regards to Historical preservation. I guess the Midwest Industrial Revolution states have nothing to offer in the way of Historical importance right now. Maybe in another 10-15 years, but right now we're under the Archeo*******'s radar...What really grinds me is that if the laws in Ohio were to adopt the preservation Agenda of other states, groups like MAST would cease to exist. That disturbes me.

[LVX]

In Texas there is the Southwest Underwater Archaeological Society. They are a group of divers and avocational archaeologist who work with the State Marine Archaeologist of Texas to help locate and document historic wrecks of texas.

[wreckdiver1715]

Yet, my old home state of Texas has some of the most restrictive rules and regulations on the salvage of shipwrecks. Damn Aggie’s! The Arches at A&M are definitely in control, no one but the academic types can salvage old shipwrecks, and the yahoos in Austin bought into all that academic bull and made it law. Don’t Mess with Texas Shipwrecks! Oh yea! All you treasure hunters move to Florida.

Q

[LVX]

Yet, my old home state of Texas has some of the most restrictive rules and regulations on the salvage of shipwrecks. Damn Aggie’s! The Arches at A&M are definitely in control, no one but the academic types can salvage old shipwrecks, and the yahoos in Austin bought into all that academic bull and made it law. Don’t Mess with Texas Shipwrecks! Oh yea! All you treasure hunters move to Florida.

Q

No, that is incorrect. I received my M.A. from Texas A & M in the Nautical Archaeology Department. The professors there do not work in Texas and most in fact do not work in the US. The prefer classical archaeology. There are a few that do but not in Texas. The rules for Texas are set by the Texas Historical Commission in Austin. You are right, everything does belongs to Texas.

Still even so, you can get a permit to look at wreck in Texas and you don't need a permit to dive wrecks in Texas as long as they are left alone. This only pertains to historic wrecks that are 50 years or older. And, as I mentioned previously, there are certain circumstances where you 'might' be able to salvage a wreck or even destroy a wreck. When I worked for the Texas Historical Commission, a gas company putting in a pipeline would have to do an archaeological assesment prior to their work. A wreck was found, it was investigated and then determined to be insignificant and the gas company was not required to avoid they area.

There are thousands of wrecks in Texas. This can be anything from a row boat to a historic wreck. Can you tell me what wrecks in Texas you would like to salvage? For the life of me, what would you take, how would you conserve it and then where would you display it.

Believe me, I am not a traditional academic. I do believe there is room for a compromise.

Also, since there is a group which you could join to look at historic wrecks and help map and preserve them, why not join. Is it that you only want to take things for yourself. If you truly want to salvage them, is it for the materials or just a porthole? These are just questions not put downs. I have a database of the wrecks in Texas and I can't think of one where you could just go take somethings and then put it on your mantle above your fireplace. Everything would need to be conserved and that takes a great deal of money and time.

L

[james croft]

I have a modest collection of portholes, lanterns,binnacle, etc. and they needed no preservation. If the good Lord did not want us to have a porthole, he would not have made them out of brass.

[phoneman]

I can't help but wonder if academia spent as much time developing a positive role with rec. divers who may find something, would it not be more productive for eveyone. What might happen if divers were told that they could keep a controlling intrest in what they find if its reported? Simply making a criminal out of a diver who takes an old deck nail or cannon ball home doesn't seem to benefit anyone. What is even more puzzling is that if that same deck nail washes on shore and is picked up it would be ok. Turning the oceans and lakes we dive into the Sherwood forrest for archaeologist's will only result in making alot of Robin Hood's. Remember Robin Hood didn't steal from the rich he stole from the sheriff of Nottingham (a.k.a. the government). Sorry for the rant but some times I get stuck on stupid.

[ScubaToneDog]

I have a modest collection of portholes, lanterns,binnacle, etc. and they needed no preservation. If the good Lord did not want us to have a porthole, he would not have made them out of brass.

And if the Good Lord wanted it in a museum, he wouldn't have led you to it...can I get an Amen?

[naskatucket]

amen

[ageddiver]

Believe me, I am not a traditional academic. I do believe there is room for a compromise.

L

Unfortunately, you're in the minority and you'd be taken to task by your own compadres if you tried to work with divers. That's what happened to an archeologist out here when he proposed a swap of info with us after he found out that we know the locations and identities of a lot of wrecks he had no information on. They're also all deeper than 150FSW, which makes any serious survey extremely expensive. We'd have been happy to share video, descriptions and locations - and even donate whatever small artifacts we had to a museum, in exchange for more information on the wrecks he might have been able to uncover and credit for the "discovery". By the way, these are all unprotected wrecks. But unfortunately his buds made it clear that his credentials were at stake if he actually worked with us ignorant "criminals" and so we continue to find and document more wrecks for fun and on our own dime, and they remain righteous and clueless.

[fire_diver]

Really sad that 99.9% of all archies are like that.

Same exact situation occurs in the field of civil war relics. CW archies would rather commit sepuku than share data with, or ask for the help of, a CW metal detectorist. Even though many detectorists spend more time and personal money in research than the government paid archies. Most find battle sites that the archies never heard of, or only dreamed of finding. These guys do a damned good job of conserving and displaying their finds too. They are proud of the results of thier hard work, and would gladly set up thier own museums, except that would prevent them from going out and looking for more.


FD

[phoneman]

Yes and I'm sure if you did set up your own museum it would be siezed before the door opened. Its a shame.

[LVX]

Unfortunately, you're in the minority and you'd be taken to task by your own compadres if you tried to work with divers.

Just so you know, I have worked with many divers and Yes, I have been called many things by glass office archaeologists but I really don't care. They can't take my credentials away, all they can do is refuse to work with me which they have NOT done. It is easy to call anyone to task for either not protecting a wreck or taking it all, putting it in a basement of a museum and then never writing a report. Both are wrong in my opinion. We all need to cooperate or we will never get a long.

thanks

L

[LVX]

Yes and I'm sure if you did set up your own museum it would be siezed before the door opened. Its a shame.

Not true. You as a private citizen can apply to get a permit for documenting wrecks. All you would need is an archaeologist on your project. That means anyone with an MA in Archaeology. As part of your research plan, you can state you are either doing a non-disturbance survey, which means you are not going to pick up anything or you can do a minor site disturbance with means you are going to pick up a few artifacts for analysis to help determine more about the wreck or even a full blow excavation.

You would need to prove you have the money to do any of the above and if you picked up artifacts, that you have the money to properly conserve them and then display them.

Now, this does not mean you can call your garage a museum and state this is where you will display them. Your permit will not get approved. It must be legit.

So, for instance, you and I could partner up. You right out the application, send it to the State Preservation Officer and list me as the archaeologist of record. If it goes thorough, I don't see why you would not get approved. I have seen several that have been approved in the past. Again, this would not mean you own the artifacts. The museum would own them. Believe me, there are several small museums on the coast how would love to display shipwreck artifacts. They just don't have the money to do the research, exploration or conservation.

For the most part, some archaeologist just don't want you to jump off a boat, sink to the bottom, pick something up and go home. They want to know where you went, what you saw, what you recovered and what you did with it.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this. We are held to the same standards whether you believe it or not. And, just because I am an archaeologist doesn't mean anyone is going to turn a blind eye. The Good Ole Boy mentality is slowly fading away to a small degree. Now, it is truly large amounts of red tape.

Also, someone said that 99.9% of archaeologists are hardnose - my way or the high way type of people. I think you would be surprised. The trouble is, you guys focus on the archaeologists with the louded voices. There are others out there.

[phoneman]

So let me see if I understand. To follow my earlier analogy, if I petition the crown and am granted permission to hunt in Sherwood forest I could then bring the sheriff with me to take my catch for the day. Oh, but I would get to watch him eat it. I seem to miss what incentive anyone would have to comply. I have no doubt that a museum would want to display what I may have found thats how they make money whether it’s thru admission charges or government grants (a.k.a. my tax dollars).

I'm new to diving but have been metal detecting on the beaches here for a couple of years now and would like to combine the two at some time. However the process you outlined above makes it senseless on my part. I would love to be able to find someone who could help me research some of the things I have found with out the worry that they would be taken for the greater good. I think if that were the case those small museums would be turning away people with arm loads of junk from the bottom of the ocean.

OK now you've done it I've gone an given myself an ice cream headache thinking this much. I hope you're happy.:banghead:

[fire_diver]

Not true. You as a private citizen can apply to get a permit for documenting wrecks. All you would need is an archaeologist on your project. That means anyone with an MA in Archaeology. As part of your research plan, you can state you are either doing a non-disturbance survey, which means you are not going to pick up anything or you can do a minor site disturbance with means you are going to pick up a few artifacts for analysis to help determine more about the wreck or even a full blow excavation.

Wow! really?! I get to do ALL that to pick up a deadlight?


You would need to prove you have the money to do any of the above and if you picked up artifacts, that you have the money to properly conserve them and then display them.

Does thousands in dive gear constitute proof of funds?


Now, this does not mean you can call your garage a museum and state this is where you will display them. Your permit will not get approved. It must be legit.

So how bought my basement? Thats where most archie stuff rots away (museum or collegiate basements) until it gets stolen becuase everyone has forgotten its there.


Again, this would not mean you own the artifacts. The museum would own them. Believe me, there are several small museums on the coast how would love to display shipwreck artifacts. They just don't have the money to do the research, exploration or conservation.

So once again we are back to square one. Let it rot in the earth or at the bottom of the ocean! You unwashed rabble of a populace are not fit "own" the lost, forgotton, discarded trash of our fathers'!!


For the most part, some archaeologist just don't want you to jump off a boat, sink to the bottom, pick something up and go home. They want to know where you went, what you saw, what you recovered and what you did with it.

Because every piece of garbage that has no historical significance must be systematically recorded even though every hurricane changes the lay-out of all those tiny little pieces. Or in the topsoil recovery, they really care where every musketball is found even though that field has been plowed every year since the war ended.


Now, it is truly large amounts of red tape.

Because our almost communistic government must have a hand in everything IT'S people do


The trouble is, you guys focus on the archaeologists with the louded voices. There are others out there.

The ones with the loudest voices are the ones responsible for making it illegal to pick up anything over 50 years old! Can you spell ARPA?

[LVX]

What I was saying is there should be a partnership. No, you can't have it all. Guess what, I can't have it all either. I have to follow the same rules and regulations as you. What I am saying is you can get a project started and you can be in charge of the project. You and I can both volunteer our time and money to complete the project.

This is for the protection and preservation of our cultural resources right? Or is it so you can have it? That is the question. Why are you doing this? What is your motivation? Are you really looking out for the artifacts or your own interests?

So, you donate your time and money. I will dontate my time and money. We both try and find a museum who can display the materials. This would be determined by the number of objects and hell, we might get the museum to donate some money.

Now, we have all dontated our money and you and I have dontated our time. Along with other divers and archaeologists.

Conclusion, artifacts have been recorded in place, recovered, conserved and displayed.

What is wrong with that? It really sounds to me you just want this stuff. You talk about just picking up one thing. That is no better than leaving it all there to rot. Where is the information about that one thing you picked up. As well as the hundreds of other divers who have now cleaned the wreck of all artifacts.

[LVX]

By the way, you say every insignificant object would need to have the same care taken for it as historic artifiacts.

What do you consider historic vs insignificant. Also, why is it insignificant?

One last thing, you say everything is moved around after every storm. I beg to differ. I worked on a wreck site that had been buried for 310 years. We were able to tell internal comparnent arrangements due to where artifacts were positioned. We were also able to tell where many activities happened onboard because of where artifacts were found. Lastly, we found a 310 year old skeleton still completely intact right down to his finger bones where there were rings still on fingers. There was also a very small cask which once held wine inside just out of reach as if it rolled out of his hand. We have diary enteries which state they were out of fresh water and had to drink wine and liquor instead.

All of this was confirmed by artifact distribution on a wreck. Sometimes artifacts are moved around and sometimes they are not.

[ageddiver]

LVX, I think we can agree that there should be a partnership. But I also think the current laws in effect do not promote one in any way. The problem as I see it is that the same laws that protect a 300+ year old wreck protect a completely irrelevant 75 or 100 year old wreck. In some ways it's like saying we should not be allowed to dig around in the loft of our 150 year old barn because there could be artifacts.

By far the majority of ocean wrecks that we find are insignificant historically. But who's to know which is which? No frigging way would I ever go through the process you've outlined for most of the wrecks I've found - all that for a lighter or schooner barge? If divers who find these wrecks (and it won't be archeologists) had a real partnership going, then the divers could feel comfortable in bringing in a location, description, and a few items they've found, and get some help identifying the wreck and the artifacts. If the wreck is significant in some way, it's discovered early on and protections can be put in place. If it's not, then the archies get photos of any artifacts, and documentation of the wreck for their files. I'm sure they could talk the divers out of any interesting items if they wanted to display them. Divers typically do not sell the items they find anyway.

But in the present situation, I feel my only option is to share the sites with my friends and keep very quiet. If the archies want the sites, let THEM suit up and find them. Not a good attitude perhaps, but it's what the law makes it - don't you think?

[LVX]

don't you think?

Yes, unfortunately I do agree with you. I also understand the analogy regarding a 75 year old barge or schooner to a semi truck.

I also understand there are plenty of examples of each and no musuem wants to display artifacts from either. So, should you be able to remove artifacts? Well, If I came upon a 50 year old semi and I found a cool license plate or a pair of fuzzy dice, would I take it? Maybe? I guess the real question is where do you draw the line. You would have to. What would keep divers off a very historic wreck if they didn't know what it was when they found it. Let's take this to the extreme for a moment.

A wooden hull has been found off North Carolina by a group of sport divers. The rules for diving the wreck have now been removed. What can these divers do? Can they just take things at random even with the best intentions when they get home to conserve the objects? What if it happened to be Black Beard's ship? What if all identifiyers are removed before anyone with historical knowledge gets to dive the site. Artifacts are one of the main identifyers of a wreck. What now? Should the divers have historical information about the areas in which they dive before hitting the water?

Seriously, where do you draw the line or do you not think there should be a line. Would you only take those things that are duplicates and leave thosse objects which are one of a kind?

I really do agree there needs to be partnerships so let's try and work this out. If you could have the ideal world, how would you protect cultural remains. This is not just hte objects themselves but the interpretations of the remain in relationship to each other and the ship as a whole. This is called provience, and no matter if you believe a shipwreck is disturbed by cause and effect, the locational information is very important. I can prove it.

Let's discuss this... Shall we.....

[ageddiver]

OK, how about a plan whereby we keep in place stiff penalties for disturbing "historical" wrecks? Then we define historical in a reasonable way, such that the semi-truck type wrecks are excluded.

The local archeological authority also offers a modest $$$ reward ($200?) for registering locations and descriptions of any previously undocumented wreck. That way you'll ensure that all new wrecks are reported promptly. The local authority would then have some (short) time frame in which to establish historical significance using the reasonable definition above, during which nothing could be removed without authorization. After that period, the wreck is either historical (and protected) or not, and if not divers are welcome to go and explore, with the stipulation that they a) do not do structural damage to the wreck (don't tear it apart) and b) photograph artifacts for the authority so that the authority has the chance to examine them further if interesting. The divers own the artifacts in this case.

That's a partnership. The archies are assured that divers will come to them with the info they need to mark and sort wrecks for the ones that really have some value, and divers are assured that they won't be treated like felons if they take souvenirs from cleared wrecks.

Your turn.

[LVX]

OK, how about a plan whereby we keep in place stiff penalties for disturbing "historical" wrecks? Then we define historical in a reasonable way, such that the semi-truck type wrecks are excluded.

OK, what would be reasonable. Is it defined by time or what the wreck represents? A diver who finds a wreck without knowing what it is would hardly be in a position to know if a wreck they are on meets this criteria.


The local archeological authority also offers a modest $$$ reward ($200?) for registering locations and descriptions of any previously undocumented wreck. That way you'll ensure that all new wrecks are reported promptly.

OK, now again let's look at the extreme - In Texas there are 2700 wrecks and if each was reported and the Texas Historical Commission (THC) had to pay out it would cost them $540,000. Now I know there would not be anywhere near that many but I am talking about extremes here. Still, it is money the THC does not have. They don't even have a travel budget this year.


The local authority would then have some (short) time frame in which to establish historical significance using the reasonable definition above, during which nothing could be removed without authorization. After that period, the wreck is either historical (and protected) or not, and if not divers are welcome to go and explore, with the stipulation that they a) do not do structural damage to the wreck (don't tear it apart) and b) photograph artifacts for the authority so that the authority has the chance to examine them further if interesting. The divers own the artifacts in this case.

Short time - what does that mean - 1 year. Again looking at the THC as an example. There is only 1 person on staff. Anyone else would cost the THC more money. Again, they didn't even get a travel budget this year.


That's a partnership. The archies are assured that divers will come to them with the info they need to mark and sort wrecks for the ones that really have some value, and divers are assured that they won't be treated like felons if they take souvenirs from cleared wrecks.

The main points which were not defined and where so much confusion rest is with what is historical and who gets to determine historical. From what I am reading it sounds like the THC would have to almost positively identify the wreck to be able to determine if it is historical. We found a wreck a couple of years ago where we found about 20 muskets on it. Does that make it historical. I read in this thread someone saying it might not because there are plenty of muskets in museums. So, who gets to make that call and will it satisfy everyone else? (NO).

Also, the time frame (short) what does that mean. For an agency with one underwater archaeologist, 1 year is not a lot of time if you are talking about many wrecks. Each investigation would require money and support as you all know. Where do they get that money. They would have to raise it. That takes time. Or, they could raise everyone's taxes to help foot the bill.

Your turn.[/QUOTE]

[Leadking]

I got into this debate years ago with a Ranger friend at Isle Royale. When does it go from trash to treasure?

Never got a straight answer

[ageddiver]

Dude, let me get this straight: the THC has no money to pay divers for any information, they have no time/people to do any wreck research, and they also have no money to properly excavate any wrecks. But the state has plenty of money to pay state law enforcement to patrol wreck sites and investigate curious divers, and to pay lawyers and courts to prosecute divers who take anything off of any old crapbox that ever sunk. Does that about sum it up? You must work for the state.

Of course the big sticking point is around the definition of historical. But you're simply taking the head-in-the-sand approach by saying "who's to decide, so we treat them all as historical". And you can stick with that line and not bend and nothing will ever change. As I said before - righteous and clueless.

And your arguments are weak - 2700 wrecks? How many were located last year? 5? That's $1000. And one guy can't separate the wheat from the chaff? BTW, what did the state do with all those muskets? Preserve them and display in a museum, or stick them in a dirty basement? My guess is the latter, and the other writer was right. You talk about about a partnership, but you tear up any proposals you hear and offer nothing remotely workable.

[LVX]

Dude, let me get this straight: the THC has no money to pay divers for any information, they have no time/people to do any wreck research, and they also have no money to properly excavate any wrecks. But the state has plenty of money to pay state law enforcement to patrol wreck sites and investigate curious divers, and to pay lawyers and courts to prosecute divers who take anything off of any old crapbox that ever sunk. Does that about sum it up? You must work for the state.

They do, really - wow,when was the last time in Texas you heard of the shipwreck police giving out a ticket. The only time they might come after you is if they "hear" you have done somethings and then "think" it important enough to take you to court. You comment above sounds like a conspiarcy theory.


Of course the big sticking point is around the definition of historical. But you're simply taking the head-in-the-sand approach by saying "who's to decide, so we treat them all as historical". And you can stick with that line and not bend and nothing will ever change. As I said before - righteous and clueless.

OK, what is your solution. You are good a saying what is wrong but you have yet to tell me how we decide. You just simply stated it was wrong and that we need to setup a system but you have yet to offer a solution.


And your arguments are weak - 2700 wrecks? How many were located last year? 5? That's $1000. And one guy can't separate the wheat from the chaff? BTW, what did the state do with all those muskets? Preserve them and display in a museum, or stick them in a dirty basement? My guess is the latter, and the other writer was right. You talk about about a partnership, but you tear up any proposals you hear and offer nothing remotely workable.

You would be wrong, many are in the Bob Bullock Museum here in Austin and several others are at A & M and being used for analysis. And as far as your proposal, I do agree. I am simply asking you how you decide what is historical and you totally ignored it and still have not given a response about it. Let me know. How do you determine what is historical. You are good are arguing but not at offering solutions.

And, how does one separate the wheat from the chaff. I must have missed that class. Are you saying the State Marine Archaeologist should just believe what the divers are saying and give them out the money before every looking at the wreck site. So, if you go out and find a shrimpboat and say it is a historical wreck the archaeologist is just supposed to believe you, pay you and then start his/ her research only to find it is a shrimp boat.

[fire_diver]

You just simply stated it was wrong and that we need to setup a system but you have yet to offer a solution.

Yes he did! Diver finds wreck. Diver reports wreck. State archie investigates wreck. Archie submits report to historical society. Determination is made as to whether this wreck has significance to history of world, USA, or Texas. Wreck is protected for state excavation or is turned back over to diver to loot and piliage the sunked garbage scow as he/she sees fit. Pretty damn simple, but no archie will EVER agree to it, because they think it all belongs to them.


I am simply asking you how you decide what is historical and you totally ignored it and still have not given a response about it. Let me know. How do you determine what is historical. You are good are arguing but not at offering solutions.

That is the job of the archies. but its pretty damn simple. "while this ship was floating on the ocean, did it partake in any action that had a significant impact on the history of a nation?" answer no, and turn that thing back to the divers.


And, how does one separate the wheat from the chaff. I must have missed that class.

Must not be much of an archie if you cant determine if an object is important to history or not.


Are you saying the State Marine Archaeologist should just believe what the divers are saying and give them out the money before every looking at the wreck site. So, if you go out and find a shrimpboat and say it is a historical wreck the archaeologist is just supposed to believe you, pay you and then start his/ her research only to find it is a shrimp boat.

Wow, you really do have your head in the sand. Nothing like that was ever stated. The statement was to pay the diver a "finders fee". How many thousands did that diver save the state in serching for that particular wreck? The diver doesnt say whether its historic, thats the job of the archie. Yes, the state is responsible for finding out whether or not "its a shrimp boat". If the state dont want to, the wreck is fair game.

[2Tours N Iraq`]

As a believer in smaller government, I feel it is up to local and state agencies, archeys, and local wreck divers clubs to come to an agreement on what constitutes historical. Also, I don't think there should be a flat rate finders fee (say $200) as if a wreck is deemed historical and the wreck has millions of $$ worth of artifacts on it then the finder should get a percentage paid for by the STATE, not come out of the historical agency's budget as it is vastly underfunded. If a wreck is deemed to not be of historical value then the finder's fee paid is the wreck itself. I would agree that most divers are proud of their find and would seek out to properly preserve their artifacts if they weren't afraid of being prosecuted. By having the entire community who could benefit coming to a consensus on the STATE definition of historical value everyone wins. The state doesn't have to spend the millions of $$ associated with finding and investigating a wreck and the divers don't have to fear prosecution. The one exception I (personally) think should be for war ships sunk as a result of combat. They should only be dived to determine the proper identy of the wreck then left alone as it should be deemed a grave sight, regardless of which side of whatever war it was on. Just my humble opinion and I am open to changing my opinion based on a common consensus between all involved parties.

[fire_diver]

Hey 2T, what is your MOS? You have so much internet access over there, I would guess you are commo, but that's just a guess. I think my units time-table for deployment has been bumped up (big increase in training days early this year). But the commander keeps saying he knows nothing. LOL they ALWAYS say that.


FD (11B E6, soon to be 31B)

[ItsBruce]

Would I be out of place complaining that the authorities raised the boat that recently sank in its slip. It was an old beat up boat and I say it should have been left in place for its historical value.

[phoneman]

I live in the N. E. part of Fl. where you could say there is alot of historic sites to see but none that I know of in the water. However you can be sure that if pass thru one of the local inlets and the wildlife officers thinks you my have taken something from the bottom your in for a rough time.You could float a barge load of junk from the bottom of the sea thru that same inlet tell them you the friends of the spotted green sea owl or some such nonsense and you can go on your way. Now take the most worthless piece of junk from that barge put it on your boat with dive gear visable when you pass thru the inlet and you are in for a day at court. Now for grins and giggles try just riding around the inlet with your dive gear and a metal detector displayed where all can see. I know of no one who is brave enough to try this but I could guess what would happen. Why?

P.S. Yes spotted green sea owl tastes alot like chicken

[diverjed]

I live in the N. E. part of Fl. where you could say there is alot of historic sites to see but none that I know of in the water. However you can be sure that if pass thru one of the local inlets and the wildlife officers thinks you my have taken something from the bottom your in for a rough time.You could float a barge load of junk from the bottom of the sea thru that same inlet tell them you the friends of the spotted green sea owl or some such nonsense and you can go on your way. Now take the most worthless piece of junk from that barge put it on your boat with dive gear visable when you pass thru the inlet and you are in for a day at court. Now for grins and giggles try just riding around the inlet with your dive gear and a metal detector displayed where all can see. I know of no one who is brave enough to try this but I could guess what would happen. Why?

P.S. Yes spotted green sea owl tastes alot like chicken

I've lived in NE Florida for about 6 months now, but what is the diver scoope concerning the missing ship from the hurricane of 1715? If any? Supposed to be near Jacksonville somewhere...

[diversmarts]

Tell ya what.......I'll look for it and let you know.

WAit....no I won't!

My treasure is there! ;)

[bladephotog]

"Now take the most worthless piece of junk from that barge..."

If this "junk" is of interest to you than it might also be of interest to archeologists and/or other divers.

I don't know anything about archeology or treasure hunting. But I do know from my layman's perspective it seems there is a lot of selfishness involved from individuals on both sides. And that is a shame.

Personally I'd rather look at artifacts while diving the wreck, not in a museum or in someone's basement.

[diversmarts]

"Now take the most worthless piece of junk from that barge..."

If this "junk" is of interest to you than it might also be of interest to archeologists and/or other divers.

I don't know anything about archeology or treasure hunting. But I do know from my layman's perspective it seems there is a lot of selfishness involved from individuals on both sides. And that is a shame.

Personally I'd rather look at artifacts while diving the wreck, not in a museum or in someone's basement.

I've been involved in artifact and salvaging all over the world, and believe you me, it looks best in your living room!

Or in your pocketbook, after the sale.

[phoneman]

I've lived in NE Florida for about 6 months now, but what is the diver scoope concerning the missing ship from the hurricane of 1715? If any? Supposed to be near Jacksonville somewhere...

If your looking for the 1715 fleet it would be south in the Vero Beach area. I have never been there but have more info on where to go if you want it. I have a friend who said you can shore dive some of it on good days?

I have read several accounts of lost ships in the Jax,St. Augustine area that date from the 1700's but know of none that have been found. Many of these have a great deal of information about the ships that date from the period when they were lost. However much of what was used as referance points to locate them have long since been gone.

There was one ship located off of St. Augustine by a dredge replenshing the beach. I don't think there is much left of it. The dredge chopped it up and spit it on the beach. They never knew they hit it until beach hunters with metal dectors started finding 70lb bars of silver.:crossbone

[fire_diver]

If your looking for the 1715 fleet it would be south in the Vero Beach area. I have never been there but have more info on where to go if you want it. I have a friend who said you can shore dive some of it on good days?

Don't try it! The Mel Fisher (sp?) group has legal rights to almost that entire area. And the life guards watch for and report anyone diving or detecting in the water. BIG fines and confiscation if you get caught. Only way to hunt this area is to contact the group, lease a specific site (for $1000 a season I think). Then you still have to split the finds with the group.


And IIRC, the plate fleet wrecks are on the east side, and vero is on the gulf?

[fire_diver]

"Now take the most worthless piece of junk from that barge..."

If this "junk" is of interest to you than it might also be of interest to archeologists and/or other divers.

I don't know anything about archeology or treasure hunting. But I do know from my layman's perspective it seems there is a lot of selfishness involved from individuals on both sides. And that is a shame.

Personally I'd rather look at artifacts while diving the wreck, not in a museum or in someone's basement.


Doesnt matter if an archie is "interested" in an item. What we are discussing is the "historical significance" of that "junk", or the wreck it came off.

As for the selfishness, the way I see it is; I spent the time and money to dive a wreck or even conduct salvage ops, I deserve to keep the items I take. Now if they are important to the history of my state, country or the world, then it should be hands off, or recover WITH the archies so that I can stand in the museum and point and tell my family "I found this wreck, and I recovered that item."

FD

[diverjed]

[QUOTE=phoneman]If your looking for the 1715 fleet it would be south in the Vero Beach area. I have never been there but have more info on where to go if you want it. I have a friend who said you can shore dive some of it on good days?

I have read several accounts of lost ships in the Jax,St. Augustine area that date from the 1700's but know of none that have been found. Many of these have a great deal of information about the ships that date from the period when they were lost. However much of what was used as referance points to locate them have long since been gone.

Those accounts were probably what I had heard of.

[Spratman]

That's good in theory. We heard a lecture (Nov, I think) of a very well known wreck diver and historian, Gary Gentile, who video-taped the U.S.S. Monitor for NOAA. The observer they assigned did nothing except rail on him constantly about disturbing anything, since they have the governmental rights over everything.

Excerpt from Gary's website www.ggentile.com, "In 1989, after a five-year battle with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Gary won a suit which forced the hostile government agency to issue him a permit to dive the USS Monitor, a protected National Marine Sanctuary. Media attention that was focused on Gary's triumphant victory resulted in nationwide coverage of his 1990 photographic expedition to the Civil War ironclad. Gary continues to fight for the right of access to all shipwreck sites.

There is a big movement afoot by the US gov't and the UN to make ANY man-made structures on the bottom of the water their's, whether they EVER to anything with it or not. This is BS and should be not allowed.

There is a symbionic relationship that could help both the diving community and the academic community, but the latter will never agree to it.

My $.02

[diverjed]

That's good in theory. We heard a lecture (Nov, I think) of a very well known wreck diver and historian, Gary Gentile, who video-taped the U.S.S. Monitor for NOAA. The observer they assigned did nothing except rail on him constantly about disturbing anything, since they have the governmental rights over everything.

Excerpt from Gary's website www.ggentile.com, "In 1989, after a five-year battle with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Gary won a suit which forced the hostile government agency to issue him a permit to dive the USS Monitor, a protected National Marine Sanctuary. Media attention that was focused on Gary's triumphant victory resulted in nationwide coverage of his 1990 photographic expedition to the Civil War ironclad. Gary continues to fight for the right of access to all shipwreck sites.

There is a big movement afoot by the US gov't and the UN to make ANY man-made structures on the bottom of the water their's, whether they EVER to anything with it or not. This is BS and should be not allowed.

There is a symbionic relationship that could help both the diving community and the academic community, but the latter will never agree to it.

My $.02


Maritime Law is deep-rooted. Especially in Europe. That's a sure sign we are headed in the same direction.

Socialism!

[Spratman]

Fight The Power!! :censored:

Sorry, must have been a flashback....:D

[diverjed]

Fight The Power!! :censored:

Sorry, must have been a flashback....:D


What they don't know won't hurt them.

[bladephotog]

Doesnt matter if an archie is "interested" in an item. What we are discussing is the "historical significance" of that "junk", or the wreck it came off.

As for the selfishness, the way I see it is; I spent the time and money to dive a wreck or even conduct salvage ops, I deserve to keep the items I take. Now if they are important to the history of my state, country or the world, then it should be hands off, or recover WITH the archies so that I can stand in the museum and point and tell my family "I found this wreck, and I recovered that item."

FD

By "interested" I mean historically significant. I agree with you for the most part. If you spend the money to find the wreck, legally lay claim to it and it turns out to be of historical significance then the government should reimburse you for your time and expenses if they are going to take it from you.

But so many of our wrecks here in the Great Lakes have been stripped by the average Joe diver looking for a souvenir. They didn't find the wreck. They didn't file any legal claim to it. They just showed up and stripped it screwing ALL of us in the process.

As a diver I'd rather been on an intact wreck than either a shell-of-a-wreck or an artificial reef. Take the George A. Marsh in Lake Ontario for example. That wreck is loaded with artifacts. It's a wonderful dive. By viewing all of that "junk" I can get an idea of what life was like aboard that ship. And in the context of the size of the ship, orientation and with the knowledge that 12 of 14 people drown when it sank. It was a much more personal experience diving that wreck than a stripped wreck or the Spiegel Grove. I mean what the hell is the point of shipwreck diving if there is nothing to see?

And defining what is historical and what isn't is a subjective thing.