DIRF book

[jbd]

Can anyone give a review of the DIR fundamentals book? How well does it cover Philosphy, Gear configuration and Techniques?

In your opinion is the book well worth having?

[WreckWriter]

No time to go into detail byt yes, it's a great book.

Tom

[FATHOMDIVER]

It's an informative book but if your already an accomplished diver then I wouldn't bother with it. It appears to me, they focus more on placing a negative impact on other agencies over safety. If you can get over that, they are a fine agency. But again, some of the skills are just fancy names for stuff you already now how to do. Good Luck.:doctor:

[roakey]

It is a fantastic book that helps you evaluate your skills, where you are, where you need to be and gets you started on the right track.

According to FATHOMDIVER's profile he's someone that's "Seen is [sic] all over the years and have heard it all." For someone who thinks he can't learn anything from anyone, I'm not surprised that he's unimpressed by the book.

For us mere mortals, however, it's an excellent book, don't hesitate to order it.

Roak

[FATHOMDIVER]

Just getting to know you roakey. Now I know. You should know better than try to change a codger. Can't change after 3 decades of success.

[madmole]

I've been diving 26 years and done 2700+ dives. I though I had it pretty well sussed. BUT I read "Fundamantals" a couple of years ago and had a long look at my kit afterwards. I now dive a long hose in open water for example. I dont agree with ALL they Command but some of it makes very good sense

Some is plain daft. For example they claim that theirs is the ONLY way to dive. Well for a start if they tried "cave" diving in England they'ed come pretty unstuck. "Cavern" diving their config may be good for, but for a 6 hour carry to dive in a 22 cm high passage it would be a joke. Long hose is a no-no for UK caves cos you dive solo (you cant physically fit a buddy in most sumps), also where are their helmets (oh they dont actually cave do they)

Get the book, read, learn and come to your own conclusions based on your circumstances. For example I use a few too many D rings and have 2 contents guages (one digital with beepers and one good old fashioned oil filled. Dont trust electrics but the display is much better than a standard SPG). I carry a dayglo hood, 2 reels, a red and yellow SMB, net cutters, a extending flag and 3 knifes (The surface is rough in the UK and I want the boat to find me). Having had to use a knife in earnest quite a few times, I laugh at the little thing GI carries. For big heavy trawler nets you need a good 10" job. I also carry and use a buddy line, we dont have US cave VIS in the UK waters. I also carry a small perspex tube filled with distilled water so I can read my guages in ZERO viz

DIR have some very very good ideas (although most were borrowed from others) but they are not the difinative method

[Jonathan]

It's OK - worth a read but if your instructor is any good it probably won't have any startling revelations.

I find it a little opinionated - but then he is trying to sell his equipment and persuade you to pay top dollar for his instruction.

Jonathan

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by Jonathan
......

I find it a little opinionated - but then he is trying to sell his equipment and persuade you to pay top dollar for his instruction.

Jonathan


Couldn't be further from the truth. Not ONCE during our DIRF class did any of the instructors mention Halcyon or EE as required or preferred equipment. Backplate/Wings yes, but no mention of brand. And every post I've read from previous classes say the same thing.

Also, $275.00 for 2 1/2 full days of the finest instruction/instructors is hardly top dollar in my book. In fact, I'll go out on the limb and call it cheap.

[roakey]

Originally posted by Jonathan
It's OK - worth a read but if your instructor is any good it probably won't have any startling revelations.

I find it a little opinionated - but then he is trying to sell his equipment and persuade you to pay top dollar for his instruction.

Jonathan
Specifically what equipment?

And as for top dollar for instruction, Tech 1 brings you through Nitrox, 100% O2, decompression procedures, Normoxic Trimix and gas mixing (both Nitrox and Trimix) in one class for about $650. That's four or five classes from IANTD or TDI, which will cost far more than $650.

GUE classes are an incredible value.

Roak

[Jonathan]

Well DIR has not made it to Japan yet (other than doing a little tour last year) so I only had the intro from the book to go where it mentions something about the instructors not being people who have other jobs and do diving as a hobby. I have not got the book in front of me so do not have the exact quote but to me that read we won't be as cheap as your LFDS.

Glad to hear it is not so. But then that is probably market forces, and not what he/they wishes...

I still stand by what I said though - nothing startling. Nothing that made me sit up and say - "that must be THE way to do it", but then I was already using a lot of it from well before I heard of that mob

Jonathan

[tombiowami]

I just got through with a DIR Fund class in NC. For $300 we had an instructor fly in from California, JJ flew in from Fla. another instructor (D. Sweetin) drove up from Fla. with a videographer, and another instructor from South Carolina drove up. They taught from 6pm to 10:30pm on Friday, 8am-11pm on Sat, and 7am-3pm on Sunday. Very cheap. There are a lot of misconceptions about DIR/GUE, etc. several of them explained here very nicely. The instructors are pretty accessible from the GUE website if you want it straight from the horses mouth, or take the class. It is taught all over the world. Contact Andrew Georgitsis and he can give specifics on what is needed.

Tommy

[CincyDiver]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Well DIR has not made it to Japan yet (other than doing a little tour last year) so I only had the intro from the book to go where it mentions something about the instructors not being people who have other jobs and do diving as a hobby. I have not got the book in front of me so do not have the exact quote but to me that read we won't be as cheap as your LFDS.

I want to elaborate on this for those of you deciding on whether or not to purchase this book. Jonathan is referring to chapter 2, "Learning How To Learn." This chapter is a discussion of why it is so hard to find a good diving intructor in today's discounted world of recreational diving. He talks about how recreational dive shops discount their instruction to try to make diving more affordable to the masses. But the problem with this is that it encourages two types of instructors because of the abysmal pay scale. The first type is someone who can't get a better paying job and teaches out of necessity and the second type is someone who teaches because they love diving and want to pass on their knowledge. Unfortuneatly, there are not enough of the second type. He goes on to discuss evaluating an instructor's resume when it comes to choosing an instructor.

One of the points of this chapter is "you get what you pay for." I can see how people might interpret this as to why "you should pay top dollar for his instruction."

I personally think Jarrod is correct. I paid $800 to get my wife and I PADI OW certified in the Dominican Republic. OUCH! We were halfway through our vacation when we decided that sipping pina coladas by the pool was too boring. We had been wanting to learn how to scuba dive anyway and this seemed like a perfect opportunity. We wandered over to the scuba shack on the beach and signed up. When we finished that weekend, I could not believe that we were qualified to dive alone anywhere in the world. That was scary. For me, $275 seems a paltry sum of money to enhance your diving skills. I've paid a lot more and gotten a lot less. I am going to take DIRF this fall and I want to be prepared and practice a little so that I can get the most out of the class. That is why I bought the book.

[madmole]

Whats more worrying is its actually free to dive anywhere in the world. you dont need any qualifications at all. At least here in Europe there are NO regulations for amatuer divers

Whats worse is I've seen the training stadards plummet over the last 20 years. Our "Pool Novices" knew more theory and had more dive hours than required of Advanced qualifications today

[O-ring]

some of the skills are just fancy names for stuff you already now how to do.

hehe..take the class. I think the biggest revelation you will find is that you cannot do anything that you think you can do, much less do it well.

Compared to the class, the book is a ripoff (good book, just illustrating my point). The amount of useful stuff I got from the book was a drop in the bucket from what I got from the class. I read the book 3 times, watched all the videos I could lay my hands on, practiced before the class (5-10 dives of strictly practice), and I still had no clue what was going on when I got in the water with the GUE guys. You won't be disappointed with the class..

[jbd]

thanks for the input.

O-ring, now that you've been through this class, do you think that it is feasible given the nature of current training structure and the motivations of most divers(ala Mike Ferrara), that these skills could be taught AND mastered by new OW students?

[O-ring]

O-ring, now that you've been through this class, do you think that it is feasible given the nature of current training structure and the motivations of most divers(ala Mike Ferrara), that these skills could be taught AND mastered by new OW students?

Yes and No... :D

IMHO, these skills are not masterable by anyone that quickly. Scuba is a sport and you cannot really expect to just show up on game day and be able to perform flawlessly. These types of skills (namely buoyancy, trim, propulsion techniques, and drills) should be taught and demonstrated with the understanding that they should then be practiced, practiced, and practiced some more until a base level of proficiency is reached.

DIRF is not really about waving a magic wand and making everyone in the class a great diver (we all sucked). It is about showing you where the bar is in relation to these basic skills and what you need to work on to get there.

[roakey]

The point I've been trying to make is not to turn out OW students that are masters at these skills, it's simply not to teach them wrong like PADI, SSI, etc. is doing right now.

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

If your goal is perfect control in the water through correct technique you may have a long roe to hoe. First you must know what it looks like and then you must practice. Once you get it, the practice doesn't stop. Everyone gets rusty to one degree or another. Most of these skills can be practiced on every dive. All that is required is the knowlege and willingness to practice. These skills should become second nature. Remember that situation and buddy awareness must be there or it's all for nothing.
If you study under an instructor with lousy technique you have little chance of getting it right.

I give up! I have argued all along that training standards are not the problem and I still believe that. However, I am in the water teaching and diving every week and I have made it a point to watch and look for instructors who display and teach good technique. With the exception of a few cave, tech...divers who teach open recreational classes I haven't seen even a single one. A new OW diver will usually not look like the DIR video but they should know what it looks like and have a direction should they choose to take it.

Not only have I not seen an instructor who can dive, many of the classes look flat out dangerous to me. I don't care to blow the GUE horn but if that's where you must go to find an instructor who can dive then that's what you must do.

[PA/NJdiver]

There are a lot of misconceptions about DIR/GUE, etc. several of them explained here very nicely

I couldn't agree with you more. That is what really surprised me most about the DIRF class. You can read all you want about it on the internet, but it is totally different when you take the class.

Stacey

[tombiowami]

We discussed this a good bit in the DIR F and Andrew G is developing a GUE OW class that contains all of the skills taught with keeping trim/bouyancy. He also teaches his OW students this in there regular training from what I understand, no kneeling on the pool floor. They say that students come out pretty good, and much better than the average OW diver.

When's the last time someone lost their mask, ran out of air, etc. while kneeling on a quarry platform?

I think instructors teach that way because it is much easier to over weight someone, plant them on the ground and watch them do the skill as opposed to the much,much harder task of teaching this stuff maintaining trim.

We, as most classes do, had a wide range of students from 20 dives to thousands. No one looked remarkably better than anyone else. This seems to be the running theme in all of these DIR F classes I have read about. A lot of "been there done that" attitudes at the beginning, and then after a lot of "wow, that bar sure is high"


Tommy

Tommy

[roakey]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
I give up! I have argued all along that training standards are not the problem and I still believe that.
I'll assume that this was aimed at me.

How about I rephrase it that as "The vast majority of PADI, SSI, etc. instructors I have observed/known teach students incorrectly."

Of course, the fact that so many instructors become instructors through these agencies by teaching incorrect skills still makes the point that there's a systemic problem with the mainstream SCUBA industry.

Roak

[O-ring]

...from our class. Marc and JJ shot some footage (I think they were trying to boost our morale after day 1) of a couple OW classes and some other divers that were in the background and near the platforms during our class.

It was quite a stark contrast when compared to what the GUE guys were trying to teach us.

[CincyBengalsFan]

JBD,

Have you thought about the NOAA II manual? As far as diving laws and physics and physiology, no one tops this book. It's a pricy book though. If your looking for underwater techniques such as bouyancy techniques and special kicks for special circumstances then this book may not be for you. But it has just about everything else.

[sheck33]

Originally posted by madmole
I've been diving 26 years and done 2700+ dives. I though I had it pretty well sussed. BUT I read "Fundamantals" a couple of years ago and had a long look at my kit afterwards. I now dive a long hose in open water for example. I dont agree with ALL they Command but some of it makes very good sense

Some is plain daft. For example they claim that theirs is the ONLY way to dive. Well for a start if they tried "cave" diving in England they'ed come pretty unstuck. "Cavern" diving their config may be good for, but for a 6 hour carry to dive in a 22 cm high passage it would be a joke. Long hose is a no-no for UK caves cos you dive solo (you cant physically fit a buddy in most sumps), also where are their helmets (oh they dont actually cave do they)

Get the book, read, learn and come to your own conclusions based on your circumstances. For example I use a few too many D rings and have 2 contents guages (one digital with beepers and one good old fashioned oil filled. Dont trust electrics but the display is much better than a standard SPG). I carry a dayglo hood, 2 reels, a red and yellow SMB, net cutters, a extending flag and 3 knifes (The surface is rough in the UK and I want the boat to find me). Having had to use a knife in earnest quite a few times, I laugh at the little thing GI carries. For big heavy trawler nets you need a good 10" job. I also carry and use a buddy line, we dont have US cave VIS in the UK waters. I also carry a small perspex tube filled with distilled water so I can read my guages in ZERO viz

DIR have some very very good ideas (although most were borrowed from others) but they are not the difinative method


GUE does not claim that their way is the ONLY way. They claim that their way is the BETTER way in MOST diving situations. Dont be mislead by some 'DIR' divers that are arrogant and call everybody else 'strokes', very annoying term as far as i am concerned. Dont be discouraged by the way some divers try to get the message across, try to focus on the message itself.
Of course the DIR way is a compilation and extension of techniques already known, the sport developes and we learn from other peoples mistakes.

[MikeFerrara]

roakey,

In my post I was saying that I agree with you and considering the things I have been seeing in the water I'm loosing groung on which to stand. That is why I give up. There is no need to rephrase anything. Too many recreational instructors are missing the mark. Ok they're not even on the paper.

The sad part is they don't know there is a problem.

[O-ring]

If you look at the 2002 Dan report:

1. Close to 50% of fatal diving accidents involved a buoyancy problem

2. Close to 50% of diving injuries involved a buoyancy problem

3. Close to 25% of diving injuries involved a rapid ascent problem (linked to poor buoyancy??).

[jbd]

bring up go to the crux of the problem--bouyancy control. This is something that takes time to develope. I think Mike Ferrara is on the correct path in lengthening his OW classes. This gives his students more time to form the foundations of bouyancy control skills, thus enhancing their safety. I think Mike Ferrara and Roakey have made a good arguement that in too many cases the instructors have not held the bar high enough over the years and we have this ongoing cycle of poor and deteriorating techniques being taught.

Its my understanding(and I may well be wrong) that the DIR Fundamentals class was created to address the shortcomings of new Tech 1 and or Cave 1 students. Maybe this realization of shortcomings will break this cycle that Roakey has mentioned on several occasions.

[CincyBengalsFan]

What is the solution for LDS that can't take the time in class because of other LDS. The other shop takes 4-5 nights or two weekends to teach O/W. I would like to extend our class and we probably will but not like I would like. I would love to have an 8 night class or 9 nights but then Innerspace would go under really quick. No one on this planet would sign up for an 8 night class over a 4-5 night class.
I have combated this to a minor degree by telling people "The class will probably be 5 nights but if it takes extra nights there will be NO additional charge" This seems to work, like I said to a minor degree. I try to give everyone lots of free time to work on Bouyancy. However; Anyone that is reading this should realize bouyancy won't come in the class. No matter if it's 8 nights. That comes with time and practice...Lot's of practice. I tell everyone to give themselves 20 good dives before the bouancy really starts to come around.
As far as that DIR Stuff. I have head the fanatics & they need there own planet to live on in there own little perfect world. Mike F and especially Sheck33 are on track though. Thanks for being open minded.

[O-ring]

bouyancy won't come in the class. No matter if it's 8 nights. That comes with time and practice...Lot's of practice.

Good point...I don't think many OW instructors stress after-class practice too much. I know nobody told me to go home and practice buoyancy stuff before I jumped off a dive boat in the Caribbean.


As far as that DIR Stuff. I have head the fanatics & they need there own planet to live on in there own little perfect world.

I don't think there are too many fanatics on this list. Maybe the industry will come around and stop maintaining sub-par training as the status quo. That would be easier than moving all the DIR fanatics to another planet :D

[MikeFerrara]

bengalsmgtsucks,
You are right, you can't just have a long expensive class that tries to turn out expert divers. I don't have all the answers but in seeing how people dive and looking at how we teach there are some obviouse deficiencies. Some are easily fixed. One thing that we have done is to make sure students know what good diving looks like before they finish the class. They need to know what to practice. beyond that they need to choose. Many classes don't get them that far. I am also considering an OW extension sort of class. Get them certified and get a few dives under their belt then go rehash and refine it all. To do it within existing standards (in our case PADI) one could use the Scuba Review/ppb standards. That takes care of insurance and paper work issues.

So the whole idea looks like this...OW class of reasonable length and cost. In this course everything is put on the table and of course includes lots of obvious improvements over what most schools teach. Then for those who are interested enough you provide the extension as described above. Now the ones who want it can buy it. The ones who are happy going to Cozumel and crawling on the bottom can do so but are informed about the choice they have made. After all what is DIRF? It's a workshop aimed at bringing open water skills up to par. I don't believe I need to take on a third agency to teach that. I think the existing standards provide the tools, it's the application that's lacking.

It does not need to be called DIR. However, JJ and others in the Halcyon/GUE crowd are more than willing to discuss exactly these kinds of training issues. After all it does help sell good equipment. To be honest, some of the changes we have made have been a natural evolution. others, I was just smart enough to steal. GUE will help you steal anything except names like "DIR".

Much of it is in the little things like getting students off the bottom and keeping them off. I demonstrate lots of propulsion techniques including a flutter kick but beyond a demonstration students never see me or staff use it. When we first start out in the pool doing simple things like reg clearing and mask clearing, I don't sit on the bottom, I hover horizantal. The amazing thing is that some students will imitate your behavior on their own. Why force then to sit on the bottom. I stopped using the old faded bc in the pool. I use a bp and wing, h-valve and 7 ft primary. The clorine will trash the wing but I have more. My DM's and DMC's look like divers in the water.

As a certified diver the first time I had a mask knocked off was a real education. I was midwater on a knight dive. I had all kinds of trouble and damn near blew my lungs out trying to clear my mask while I was shooting up. My wife and I then went out and practiced mask removal and replacement while hovering along a wall. It was not hard but we had to train ourselves. Why not tell students that when it happens for real they will not be sitting on the bottom? Why not tell them that the same thing that caused the lost mask may cause a lost reg? Why not practice both at the same time midwater? Thats how it will happen for real. PADI dictates, to some extent(which module), the order that skills are introduced but they also recomend including time for fun and practice. They do not dictate haw you have fun and practice.

I have heard many instructors comment that (in open water) it is mandatory that you keep an OW class swimming quickly because the moment you stop they will sink to the bottom or shoot to the surface. What kind of horse sh## is that? When I take students on a tour I move very very slowly and stop often. This forces them to be neutral. I have students that after 4 OW dives have better buoyancy control than people who have been diving for years. If a diver can't stay along side their buddy at that snails pace they don't get a card. Instead they get an invitation to dive with me some more.

This is all just my take on it but I have students who come into the store after a weekend dive and tell me about the instructor or DM they saw blowing out the vis because of awfull trim and finning technique. They thank me for being their instructor. They often thank me with beer, apple pie and other little goodies.
Mike

[CincyBengalsFan]

Mike,

You and I soundl like one here. I agree on the extension class. That is a great great idea. We are going to introduce something like that soon. I have a class starting tonight so maybe we can talk about it then. Moving slow on the underwater tour should almost be mandatory. I to move slow and stop often to point at guages, air supply, etc. etc. etc. They learn bouyancy at a faster rate this way. Thanks for the great advice

BMS

[sheck33]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
bengalsmgtsucks,
You are right, you can't just have a long expensive class that tries to turn out expert divers. I don't have all the answers but in seeing how people dive and looking at how we teach there are some obviouse deficiencies. Some are easily fixed. One thing that we have done is to make sure students know what good diving looks like before they finish the class. They need to know what to practice. beyond that they need to choose. Many classes don't get them that far. I am also considering an OW extension sort of class. Get them certified and get a few dives under their belt then go rehash and refine it all. To do it within existing standards (in our case PADI) one could use the Scuba Review/ppb standards. That takes care of insurance and paper work issues.

So the whole idea looks like this...OW class of reasonable length and cost. In this course everything is put on the table and of course includes lots of obvious improvements over what most schools teach. Then for those who are interested enough you provide the extension as described above. Now the ones who want it can buy it. The ones who are happy going to Cozumel and crawling on the bottom can do so but are informed about the choice they have made. ..................................<snip>


Amen to that Mike :D

[Jonathan]

Are you starting a new agency MikeFerrara :out: ? Seriously though I like your ideas, I just wonder how much take up you would get.....

There was another comment earlier about when you get you C card you can then dive anywhere - not so. I believe somewhere when you sign it says something about conditions similar or better than where you trained. Great for us in the UK or the NE/NW coast in the US - we really can dive almost anywhere!

There is often comment about the number of cards in my log book - this is because I was under no illusion that o/w meant I could dive in the UK. So I took my own MikeF post o/w course by doing a lot of (relevant) specialities in a very short period of time after o/w - and all in the UK.

I am also naturally nosey so am always looking at people gear asking why's that there, what's this for etc, and as you mention students tend to emulate their instructors and DM's. Unfortunately there are too many out there that really are not up to the Mark - especially in warm water regions. I know some instructors who if they were back home I would leave them on the boat as a buddy and take a UK trained AOW diver instead...

Jonathan

[Scuba446]

detroit diver,
Right on! I paid a hell of alot more that the DIRF price for MY BOW certification.

'Nuff said!

[JamesK]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
I was midwater on a knight dive.


Shiny armour and all?!?!?! :D ;) :out:

[madmole]

The only bad thing about the book is that JJ does not know his hand signals. These were all internationally agreed in the 70's so there is no excuse for that fact that on page 31, 2 of the 3 signals shown are stupidly wrong

OK is fine

A clenched fist held up means "I am on Reserve" and not stop as he says, Thats an open palm

A cut throat (Across, left to right) symbol means "Danger" not out of air. "Out of air" is signalled by a CHOP to the throat (front back movement). "Give me Air" is signalled by a cupped hand jabbed finger side towards the mouth

These are from the 1972 BSAC training manual and were agreed apon by Padi, Naui, SAA and others at a big conference

I have noticed when diving in the US though that many divers dont know all the signals (I can understand not knowing "I cant pull my Reserve"). Standards throughout the rest of the world is fortunately better. But there again the Americans dont even understand the international "A" flag (I have divers down keep well clear and at low speed) that the rest oif the world uses and that has LEGAL meaning even in US waters :out: At least the users of this forum should know it exists

[sheck33]

Originally posted by madmole
The only bad thing about the book is that JJ does not know his hand signals. These were all internationally agreed in the 70's so there is no excuse for that fact that on page 31, 2 of the 3 signals shown are stupidly wrong

OK is fine

A clenched fist held up means "I am on Reserve" and not stop as he says, Thats an open palm

A cut throat (Across, left to right) symbol means "Danger" not out of air. "Out of air" is signalled by a CHOP to the throat (front back movement). "Give me Air" is signalled by a cupped hand jabbed finger side towards the mouth

These are from the 1972 BSAC training manual and were agreed apon by Padi, Naui, SAA and others at a big conference




That means that a lot pf PADI instructors dont know their handsignals either since they use your 'danger' signal for 'out of air' I have been diving for a while and i have never heard of divers using a cut throat signal for 'danger. Not to mention the fact that in an emergency it's going to be tough to distinguish between cut throat and a chop dont you think? Also, if GUE decided on some handsignals that are not in the BSAC manual, and i dont know if that is the case or not, the have the freedom to do so, any agency for that matter. A buddy pair or group of exploration divers can decide on whatever handsignal they want. What is FAR more important than WHAT handsignal is used for a particular situation is the fact ALL divers in the group AGREE on whatever handsignal they decide to use.

how do others think about this?

[roakey]

If they were agreed to “in the 70s” I have some doubts about your ‘72 source, since if it has a 72 date on it, it was probably being worked on in 70 & 71, which could possibly be before an agreement “in the 70s” was reached.

The 1990 PADI manual clearly shows “out of air” as a sawing motion across the throat, not a chopping motion.

If these two vastly different, but similar signals were agreed to “in the 70s” then all the agencies involved must have been on drugs. I don’t want to be trying to stuff a reg in my buddy’s mouth when there’s a boat behind me about to mow us down.

In addition, using the sawing motion across your throat to signal “danger” violates one of the first requirements of hand signals: They should require only one hand. If you’re sawing with one hand you have to be pointing with another at the danger, a bad thing.

The PADI manual shows the symbol for danger is a clenched fist pointed towards the source of danger. One hand. Perfect.

I find I use both the flat palm and the clenched fist symbol, but with subtle differences. I consider the “stop” flat palm to mean, “stop what you’re doing” whereas the clenched fist “hold” means “stay right where you are.”

Roak

[madmole]

Padi were still using the chop to the throat as "Out of air" in the mediteranean in the early 80's when I last did some training with them. SAA, CMAS and BSAC still do, so that puts PADI in a real minority, diver numbers wise, if thats what they are teaching now. Cant speak for the tech agencies

The agreement on 2 signals, one for "out of air" and one for "give me air" was to cover the situatiuon's where you want to call the dive cos you have an air problem but dont want to share as you have an alternative. personally I've never had to use them for real as I manage my buddies and my own air. But I suspect a panicking diver snatching your mouthpiece from your mouth is a big enough clue

Didn't want the post to come across as a moan or preach. I'm not worried what signals folks use (As long as the buddy pairs agree on them before they dive). I was trying to point out that not everything that the DIR lot write of do is perfect and must be tempered with your experiance and situations. A lot of what they say is very good stuff though (I dive a long hose as primary and that was a change in my kit that was pronpted by the book)

What I also wanted to get across was the message that not everyone uses the same signals and that divers must be aware of this and cover them as part of the buddy check if they are diving with someone they dont know well

[Jonathan]

madmole wrote
What I also wanted to get across was the message that not everyone uses the same signals and that divers must be aware of this and cover them as part of the buddy check if they are diving with someone they dont know well

could't agree more. Yesterday whilst diving I was asked my air, I started to give my reply my buddy signalled OK after I had done the first bit and turned round.

What I was trying to tell him was 130 bar - I was taught in the UK and told this is left palm flat and chop with right palm for 100 and then hold up 3 fingers for 30. The first signal it also transpires is half tank (near as damn it 100 bar hence the sign no doubt) and that's what he thought I had. When I asked him how to signal 130 he said something along the lines of oh I don't know 1 finger, followed by 3 followed by draw a zero in the water....

I won't even go into the story about the buddy (trained by the same instructor) that mixed up 100 and 50 signals that almost lead to OOA......

Jonathan

[madmole]

A classic example, In 28 years of diving in the UK I've never seen anyone invent signals for air contents. Most people just hold up their guage for the other person to see;) or in rare cases use UK sign language

Generally if I'm diving with a buddy I trust, then I will accept a look at the guage and an Ok sign. if its a trainee or someone I'm not sure on I will always take a look myself (trouble with having been an instructor for so long is you always want to be in control of everything)

In my club we also have a handsignal of holding the hand up in a claw shape palm towards the buddy, as if you were holding up the SPG to show him. It means "Hows your Gas doing". We use it with trainees a lot to start to give them a feel of how often they should be checking their gauges and to let the instructor see it at the same time

I like the Padi symbol for Danger with the pointing fist :) Unfortunately in Europe that signal means "I'm doing a Superman impression" :D :D :D But I agree it does make a lot more sense that the cut throat and then point. We get to use the danger symbol a lot when we are diving WWII wrecks with live munitions about.

Maybe a new conference to get all the agencies to agree on a standard set wouldn't be a bad idea. I'm sure there are a lot of other symbols that could be useful and easy to remember. And its about time we dropped some of the old ones like "I cant pull my reserve" (hand up and down along your side as if pulling the J cylinder reserve arm, for those that were sensibly never taught it (BSAC still do))

[sheck33]

Originally posted by madmole

And its about time we dropped some of the old ones like "I cant pull my reserve" (hand up and down along your side as if pulling the J cylinder reserve arm, for those that were sensibly never taught it (BSAC still do))


...i was taught in my CMAS class that the above signal was used for 'i am low on air' rather than i cant pull my reserve :)
I agree some standards might be useful.

If i want to know what my buddies tank pressure is i LOOK at it, i dont want any of this weird confusing handsignal stuff.
I will never forget, i have had a student tell me once, using the so many fingers for so much pressure method, that he had
15,000 psi left in his aluminium 80 :D this was in 30 ft of water so i am sure he wasnt narced! :rofL: