Dolphin usage

[Starstruck*]

I knew from general information that Dolphins were used as "weapons" for military - USA that i know of for sure, these dolphins in the wild have a lifespan of an average 35 years, in the military base they are kept in 30 by 30 foot containers! =0 and their average life in the military is 20 years.

The military used dolphins to search for mines before, which was in reason - for safety to boats. But now they have used them for rather more dramatic purposes. The usa have a new program, which was kept confidential until an employee quit his job at the military, aiding in this documentary. The Dolphins are fitted with a cone shaped cap on there nose, attached to this is another piece of equipment, another cap of some sort. The dolphin is trained to go up to enemy divers and touch them with the cap, on contact a 9mm bullet is shot forward and the enemy is killed.

In previous wars with america 2 enemy divers were found dead from lethal injections. the culprit? dolphins...

Should Dolphins be used for such purposes? taking advantage of their obediance and friendly nature?

[dpbishop]

These stories have been around since the 70's but they are more smoke than substance. Back then my father held the position of West Coast Command of Undersea Research and Developement for the USN. While some experiments were tried with training porpoises to see what they could be used as, they knew that aggressive actions against humans went against the basic nature of porpoises.

here's a report from an ex civilian trainer:

It was 1985 when I hired on as a civilian trainer in the U.S. Navy dolphin program. In addition to finding out food deprivation, corporal punishment, and psychological mistreatment used in the training of these intelligent creatures, I learned that the project did not work and was in fact a security risk.

During a rehearsal prior to six dolphins being deployed to the Persian Gulf in 1987, a "killer dolphin" swam up to me, the "enemy frogman," threw off her nose-cone weapon, and gently laid her chin on my shoulder. The director of the program later told me that "they" (the U.S. Navy) knew it did not work, that it was "just a deterrent."

The navy spent more time training dolphins to locate mines and missing equipment.

Note: the " food deprivation, corporal punishment, and psychological mistreatment used in the training of these intelligent creatures" he mentioned is no worse then what any humane animal trainer does with any trainable species; dogs, horses, etc. Probably less, because you don't have to house train them.

Sea lions, on the other hand, are aggressive by nature, very similar to dogs in that area. But if I told you about them I would have to kill you.

[Starstruck*]

Sea lions, on the other hand, are aggressive by nature, very similar to dogs in that area. But if I told you about them I would have to kill you.

Lmao!

Thanks for clearing that up for me, glad to see that dolphins friendly nature got in the way this time. I don't personally agree with the bit about them being the same as other pets. Horses maybe, dogs i think humans can give them more than what they would normally get in the wild, but things like circus animals, bear baiting IS cruelty.

When you say animal trainers. do you mean people who can afford to say make their horses show jumpable and race trackable. This i can see why is cruelty to the animals.

Thanks again.

-Pat

[ScubaTexan]

Check out the movie Day of the Dolphin...

[fishb0y]

Should Dolphins be used for such purposes? taking advantage of their obediance and friendly nature?
So should we stop using dogs in the same capacity?

[Starstruck*]

When i said that, i meant what i meant, but dolphins aren't meant to kill. Well not like this i don't think. With dogs, on tracks same with horses i am against however they do get workout, and with Fox and Hounds, it is now illegal as a sport in England. If dogs are treated without respect and giving them as much as they give to you then i would see it as cruelty, however i do not find that dogs in general in the home are trained to kill. Outside the home guard dogs maybe but they are there for a purpose to prevent criminal activity yet should be treated well. Dolphins in general are not trained to kill, using them to kill whilst they think they are just playing - misleading them was the point i was trying to get accross.

No idea if that was worded correctly, hopefully you can understand what my views are of the differences.

-Pat

[fishb0y]

but dolphins aren't meant to kill-Pat
Hate to tell you, but dolphins are carnivorous. They are used as a tool, just like dogs. There is an excellent documentary, whose name slips my mind, in which a group of dolphins (spinners) were being killed by some unknown animal. When research was done on it, it was found that the spinners were being killed by bottle nose dolphins, and the spinners were not being hunted for food. Kinda like chimps in the wild hunting other monkeys.

So much for Flipper being a nice guy.

[archman]

I haven't heard about bottlenose attacking spinner's, but bottlenose in UK waters have been known to harass and kill harbor porpoise since the mid '90's. The most popular theory forwarded is that harbor porpoise resemble baby bottlenose.

Bottlenose dolphins practice infanticide.

[fishb0y]

Bottlenose dolphins practice infanticide.
Exactly. All I am trying to point out is people have a tendancy to put emotion before logic.

[minamin13]

The usa have a new program, which was kept confidential until an employee quit his job at the military, aiding in this documentary. The Dolphins are fitted with a cone shaped cap on there nose, attached to this is another piece of equipment, another cap of some sort. The dolphin is trained to go up to enemy divers and touch them with the cap, on contact a 9mm bullet is shot forward and the enemy is killed.

Should Dolphins be used for such purposes? taking advantage of their obediance and friendly nature?

From the US Navy Marine Mammal Program web site (http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/NMMP_FAQ.html

Does the Navy train its dolphins for offensive warfare, including attacks on ships and human swimmers or divers?
No. The Navy does not now train, nor has it ever trained, its marine mammals to harm or injure humans in any fashion or to carry weapons to destroy ships. A popular movie in 1973 ("The Day of the Dolphin") and a number of charges and claims by animal rights organizations have resulted in theories and sometimes actual beliefs that Navy dolphins are assigned attack missions. This is absolutely false. Since dolphins cannot discern the difference between enemy and friendly vessels, or enemy and friendly divers and swimmers, it would not be wise to give that kind of decision authority to an animal. The animals are trained to detect, locate, and mark all mines or all swimmers in an area of interest or concern, and are not trained to distinguish between what we would refer to as good or bad. That decision is always left to humans.

[Starstruck*]

I can safely say that the information i had gathered or though to have understood is wrong, thankyou for proving me wrong[no sarcasm]. They say you learn a lot more fom your mistakes than you do getting things right. I knew that dolphins were carniforous however, i thought that it basically meant killing to eat. which dolphins do as a small matter.

So the incidents with the bottlenoses in UK waters, was this all fun and games like orca and seals? to some extent.

[fishb0y]

So the incidents with the bottlenoses in UK waters, was this all fun and games like orca and seals? to some extent.
Are you saying that Orcas and seals "play"? You mean like great whites and sea lions?

[archman]

From the US Navy Marine Mammal Program web site (http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/NMMP_FAQ.html

Although I am more likely to side with the Navy on this one, admittedly I have my doubts. Putting aside dpbishop's claims about his father's work in this field, I've been told by a marine mammal friend of mine that knew a research diver (who I've met) who discussed the .45 caliber dolphin "bang stick" work in the 1970's. And following the partial debunking of the LOFAR sonar study sponsored by the Navy, I no longer take everything reported by them as the last word. I know the technology and skillsets to implement this sort of work was possible over thirty years ago. It may have tanked practically, but the initial studies could very easily been attempted. The marine mammal research programs in the 1960's and early 1970's were pretty wacky. There was far less marine mammal regulation and oversight back then. Heck, the Navy even had a killer whale at one point, trained for deepwater recovery. The trained pilot whale was better at it, however.:D

If this dolphin-assassin thing is an urban legend, it's a very good one. Although I'm quite certain that such research doesn't exist today. I think the only dolphins kept by the Navy now are the bunch used by Mine Warfare crowd based out of San Diego. I've seen those critters when they came to Texas in 1998 for simulated missions. They're the friendliest dolphins I've ever seen.

[DavidPT40]

In World War II, Russians trained dogs to run under tanks. During the Battle of Kursk, anti-tank mines were placed on the dogs' backs. The dogs, scared by the sounds of the battle, promptly ran under the nearest tanks. They just so happened to be Russian tanks.

This is why animals don't make good weapons.

[Starstruck*]

Are you saying that Orcas and seals "play"? You mean like great whites and sea lions?

I don't know how great whites play with sea lions, my interpretation of a great white was that upon contact with its victim it became quick dinner - no time for fun and games but i could be wrong. What i mean was that Orcas play with the seals...but the seals dont want to play with the orca - they go up to the beach get a pup, take it into deep water a mile out or so and launch it in the air via their mouths, when it tries to escape they chase it and do the same again, with it being so far out to sea and the speed of orca it can't escape. They keep doing this until the pup is motionless and dead.

[fishb0y]

What i mean was that Orcas play with the seals...but the seals dont want to play with the orca
I guess you missed my point... an orca HUNTS seals and seals run away from the predator. I don't think you should be giving them human emotions, they are animals.

[swankenstein]

I guess you missed my point... an orca HUNTS seals and seals run away from the predator. I don't think you should be giving them human emotions, they are animals.
Aren't we animals too? It's been filmed many times that an orca will "toy" with a seal instead of quickly killing it and eating it. Sometimes they will pass it off to another one and let them throw it around for awhile.

[fishb0y]

Aren't we animals too? It's been filmed many times that an orca will "toy" with a seal instead of quickly killing it and eating it. Sometimes they will pass it off to another one and let them throw it around for awhile.
They will eventually eat it. People have a tendency to humanise animals to make certain aspects of their lives more palatable. I am not saying orcas are not intelligent, I am saying that they hunt, not go out looking for a play friend.

[dpbishop]

I don't know how great whites play with sea lions, my interpretation of a great white was that upon contact with its victim it became quick dinner - no time for fun and games but i could be wrong. What i mean was that Orcas play with the seals...but the seals dont want to play with the orca - they go up to the beach get a pup, take it into deep water a mile out or so and launch it in the air via their mouths, when it tries to escape they chase it and do the same again, with it being so far out to sea and the speed of orca it can't escape. They keep doing this until the pup is motionless and dead.


They're not playing with the seal lions, they're tenderizing them.

[Starstruck*]

Aren't we animals too? It's been filmed many times that an orca will "toy" with a seal instead of quickly killing it and eating it. Sometimes they will pass it off to another one and let them throw it around for awhile.

Thanks for putting it in more understandable words, that is what i meant. And the "playing" part was an abbreviation, not literaly...

[mislav]

Aren't we animals too? It's been filmed many times that an orca will "toy" with a seal instead of quickly killing it and eating it. Sometimes they will pass it off to another one and let them throw it around for awhile.
I am not an animal!
-The Elephant Man (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080678/)

Yep, I've seen that documentary. Don't remember whether orcas eat the seal later or not.

[DennisS]

If this dolphin-assassin thing is an urban legend, it's a very good one. Although I'm quite certain that such research doesn't exist today. I think the only dolphins kept by the Navy now are the bunch used by Mine Warfare crowd based out of San Diego. I've seen those critters when they came to Texas in 1998 for simulated missions. They're the friendliest dolphins I've ever seen.

Another dolphin group has T-shirts showing a muscle bound dolphin squeezing a frog to death as their logo and the phrase "No frogman escapes". Wishful thinking perhaps?

Ahhhhhh they're gentle swimmers, our buddies from the deep
http://www.fishingnj.org/artdolphagress.htm

I don't see what the big deal is, if you can train a german shepherd to attack anyone that comes into a perimeter, why not dolphins.

[Tully NE]

Bottlenose dolphins are dickheads, man.

[Zingtea]

Bottlenose dolphins are dickheads, man.
If you're going to say that, why don't you put all humans into one category and say the same thing about us?:shakehead They're intelligent, so of course they're not ALL going to be the same playful, peace-loving creatures we imagine them as. Notice that the porpoise killings and infanticides don't happen everywhere. It's a matter of culture; cetaceans' behavior evolves differently in different places, or different pods, you get the idea. That's the price for a big brain.