Trimix Certification Agencies

[g2]

I have the opportunity to take an upcoming IANTD Normoxic Trimix Diver course. Reviewing the syllabus, part of the course appears to focus on cave diving techniques. While I think this additional material may be fun to learn, cave diving is not my objective, and the unrelated course work seems a bit distracting -- like someone trying to teach you Spanish in a wood-working class.

Reviewing the TDI Trimix course syllabus, it is much more focused.

What other agencies should I also be considering for Trimix? GUE? DSAT? Who else teaches it?

[roakey]

Could you give some examples of the cave diving techniques that you saw in the text?

Roak

[g2]

Ya. What follows are quotes from the syllabus. Note: this syllabus was passed on to me electronically, not something I pulled off the web (although I assume it would be the same).

Normoxic Trimix Diver OC & Rebreather
A. Purpose
1. This Program is designed to train those who wish to dive to depths between 130 fsw (39 msw) and 200 fsw (60 msw)
...blah blah blah...

G. Waterskills Development
...
3. Become proficient in the following propulsion techniques: modified flutter, modified frog, modified dolphin and standard shuffle kicks.
...
12. Following a means of reference (pool wall, guide line, ship railing, etc.) with eyes closed, remove stage cylinder and swim a distance of at least 15 feet (4.5 meters). Reverse direction, return to stage cylinder and replace it on correct side.
13. Two divers approximately 60 feet (18 meters) apart, with blacked-out masks or eyes closed, and while simulating an out of air situation, locate each other (using side of pool, rail on wreck, guide line, etc. for orientation) and begin gas sharing via long hose.


That's it. I concede G.12 might be useful in some non-cave diving situations, but I don't see how any of them pertain to learning trimix.

[WreckWriter]

don't bother with normoxic, go straight to advanced.

Tom

[Uncle Pug]

g2 once bubbled...
but I don't see how any of them pertain to learning trimix.
So you want to *learn trimix*....
The quick and easy way....

No problem.... the trimmix part is the easy part... especially if you are only making a one way trip of it.

Get yourself some helium and prime your tank with some of that...
Hmmm.... you had better add some O2 as well... but not too much... have the LDS top your tank with air.... there...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Look... if you already knew what you were doing then you would understand the whys and wherefores of what is being taught... but since you still need to learn it is natural that you don't understand "how any of them pertain to learning trimix."

The gas is just a tool... but it is a dangerous tool... you need diving skills that will allow you to safely use the tool... and any cave elements in the instruction can only serve to make you a more skillful diver. If you really want to get your yourself run through the ringer on the skills under stress end of things (which I'm sure you don't) then take a GUE Tech class.

[g2]

Hi UP, welcome back.


Uncle Pug once bubbled...
...No problem.... the trimmix part is the easy part... especially if you are only making a one way trip of it.
Be nice now.

I am looking to gain the skills necessary to do this safely and responsibly. Recognizing that the required course(s) can be taught many different ways, I'm seeking the proper route for the type of diving I'm going to do. Your encouragement would be most welcome.

Learning "cave elements" would certainly help with many diving difficulties, but then so would a course that concentrates more on proper buoyancy and gas management. I want to be proficient at all these things, but you have to start somewhere.

As you know, different agencies concentrate on different aspects of training, as evidenced by the difference between IANTD and TDI's course work. My question is very simple: who teaches trimix?

[TexasMike]

is, what are you seeking to gain from trimix training?

In otherwords, what is your motive for such an advanced course?

[g2]

TexasMike once bubbled...
is, what are you seeking to gain from trimix training?

In otherwords, what is your motive for such an advanced course?
Perhaps I should describe the diving environment here.

There are patch reefs gently descending to about 90fsw. At that point it gets sandy and steeper until reaching 140fsw where the wall begins. Next stop: 6000fsw, with ledges at about 250 and 300+. Water temperature on the surface right now is about 90F, maybe 80-85 at depth. No surge, very little current (if any), and on a crummy day the visibilty can easily exceed 100ft.

According to several divers here, the biota "changes significantly" beyond 150fsw. I would like to see that -- this is my motivation. I do not feel comfortable doing it on air.

My diving style is relaxed, somewhat zen-like. I'm generally comfortable in the water regardless of vis, current, sharks, or whatever. If I have any doubts about my ability to handle a particular dive, I either won't do it or seek instruction from someone more experienced. In this case I want to go deep, thus my interest in learning trimix.

Cheers!

[Uncle Pug]

g2 once bubbled...
Be nice now.

My question is very simple: who teaches trimix?
Actually... your question is simplistic... and I am tring to be nice.
See... I'm even smiling :)

Trimix is the gas... and you can learn everything about the gas in just a few hours of reading stuff on the web. Try Cobb's trimix site: http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html

To quote myself: "the trimix part is the easy part"

What you can't learn so easily is how to dive trimix safely.

Once you enter the realm of trimix you are also entering the realm of staged decompression diving. At the depths you are talking any significant time spent at depth will incure a serious deco obligation.

Dealing with staged decompression is cookbook simple if you have the knowledge and skills to plan the dive, dive the plan and stick the deco stops.... IF everything goes perfectly without a hitch and neither Mr. Murphy nor Mr. Darwin find you out.

However... the most aggressive training always takes into account the worse case scenarios.... what happens when everything that can go wrong goes wrong? Is it realistic to make staged decompression stops without a mask sharing gas while your buddy controls both of your ascent rates and calls the stops that you must then maintain without visual reference? Not something any of us would want to have happen on a big dive but it is nice to have been trained to do that before the unthinkable actually happens.

The cave stuff may seem unimportant now... but it isn't.
And if you want the really aggressive *problem solving* approach do a GUE Tech class.

See... I'm still smiling :)

[Uncle Pug]

re-reading my 1st post I realize why g2 had to ask me to be nice.
re-reading g2's posts I realize that he/she has a serious inquiry.
re-reading my 2nd post I realize that it is a repeat of my 1st post.

And of course both point in the right direction...
Hopefully the second one was nice enough :D

[g2]

I figured somebody put a frog in your Corn Flakes this morning.


Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Trimix is the gas... and you can learn everything about the gas in just a few hours of reading stuff on the web. Try Cobb's trimix site: http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
I'm referring, of course, to instruction that teaches the proper use of trimix. I'm sure you'd agree that a web page is hardly a substitute for professional training and experience.


Once you enter the realm of trimix you are also entering the realm of staged decompression diving. At the depths you are talking any significant time spent at depth will incure a serious deco obligation.
Naturally. Any serious course should teach techniques for handling this safely.

Up until now I have almost always avoided mandatory deco situations because of the inherent, added risks. I have had no legitimate reasons for wanting to push those limits. Now I do.

However... the most aggressive training always takes into account the worse case scenarios.... what happens when everything that can go wrong goes wrong?
Agreed. And I would expect -- nay -- demand such training.

The cave stuff may seem unimportant now... but it isn't.
Apparently TDI, for one, has a different approach to teaching this material. I'm not saying they're better or worse because of that, but it does make me want to look at the curricula for other agencies so that I can evaluate which may be the best for me.

With that in mind, I ask myself "Which is more likely to occur here, OOA emergencies and buoyancy problems, or situations requiring a modified dolphin kick and following a guide line in a silt-out?" Both may be important, but I'm going to start by chosing a course that concentrates on the skills that I may need the most.

(Although the dolphin kick does sound kinda fun...)

See... I'm still smiling
Me too. :D

[sheck33]

g2 once bubbled...


What other agencies should I also be considering for Trimix? GUE? DSAT? Who else teaches it?


If you really want to learn and be safe and not do skills sitting on the bottom :D then GUE is the way to go, if you just want to get a c-card any other agency will do just fine.:(

am i biased toward GUE? You bet, for good reasons:boom:

[Uncle Pug]

g2 once bubbled...
With that in mind, I ask myself "Which is more likely to occur here, OOA emergencies and buoyancy problems, or situations requiring a modified dolphin kick and following a guide line in a silt-out?" Both may be important, but I'm going to start by chosing a course that concentrates on the skills that I may need the most.

For the wall dives you want to do the guideline and anti-silting kicks are probably not of primary concern. Managing failures under stress is. I again advise GUE training: Tech rather than Cave. There is still anti-silting kicks and line handling involved in Tech but not to the degree that it is in Cave. A GUE Tech class will give you the trimix, deco, planning, gas management stuff but majors in handling failure modes... it is not, however for the faint of heart.

BTW.... a buddy of the same persuasion is essential.

[Uncle Pug]

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=129088#post129088

[g2]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=129088#post129088

Sounds like great emergency/contingency training, with or without the Triox component.

Actually, 'tis a pity I'm not into cave diving. This island is riddled with blue holes, both on land and in the ocean. More interested in the critters...

[Uncle Pug]

g2 once bubbled...
Finding the proper buddy... that will be the real challenge.

...personally!

[WreckWriter]

g2 once bubbled...
Actually, 'tis a pity I'm not into cave diving. This island is riddled with blue holes, both on land and in the ocean. More interested in the critters...

You should be sure to check out the big ocean blue hole that Small Hopes often dives. It's doughnut shaped, rim at about 60' or so, depths down to at least 300' (without cave diving). It's quite impressive.

Tom

[g2]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
You should be sure to check out the big ocean blue hole that Small Hopes often dives. It's doughnut shaped, rim at about 60' or so, depths down to at least 300' (without cave diving). It's quite impressive.
Hi Tom. Haven't done it yet, but I hear it's beautiful. If I go there it'll be with someone who knows what they're doing -- and not to 300', thank you!

UP, you may someday get your wish. When I'm not working in exotic locales, I live in Port Townsend. :D

'May you get everything you wish for.' -- Old Gypsy Curse

[andibk]

g2,
You might want to check out if there are any ANDI "American Nitrox Divers International" agencies in your area. They are one of the first technical agencies out. They have a normoxic trimix course for divers with less then 200 dives and they have a full trimix course which will certify you to 100 meters. No matter what agency you go with make sure you find a instructor that is keeping active with this level of training. I have certified quite a few technical instructors and some of them have not put there equipment since they did the course. Also I would watch out for highly discounted courses. This is a expensive level to get into and you do not want anybody cutting corners on the course. Ask around and find out what some of the people in the area speak about the instructors. I have been with this agency for seven years and never considered changing. Good Luck in your search.

Bruce

[g2]

andibk once bubbled...

You might want to check out if there are any ANDI "American Nitrox Divers International" agencies in your area.
I just found their web site, I'll have a look. Training opportunities around here, for any agency or course, are pretty thin. I may end up having to travel back to the states for anything I take.

You're right about finding a good instructor. When I was first taking an advanced nitrox and decompression class the instructor bailed out on me -- after I had already bought the course materials and additional equipment! Grr. I had words with the dive shop about that.

Thanks everyone for your input!

[Uncle Pug]

If you can wait until you make a trip back to the PNW you might want to consider taking the GUE tech class from Andrew Georgitsis or Nick Foster in Kent, WA.

Or if it is something you need to take care of on the east coast check out the training schedule on:
www.gue.com

[trheeltek]

g2, I can't tell if your question's been answered yet, so here's my two cents.

Firstly, I'm with UP in that some of the skills you can't see using are required for any diver who's taking the step you're planning. For instance, blacked out can mean silt out, or for you, no mask. Nothing can end your dive - if you can't follow a line with no mask while maintaining buoyancy, for example, you're gonna have a hard time doing a controlled ascent on a line with no mask if it comes to that.

I could probably find something similar for other stuff - the point is, you may come to find applications for these skills you didn't expect.

The other thing I've noticed in all technical training is, it's less about the agency than about the instructor. GUE maintains high instructor standards, so they're pretty reliable, if heavy-handed. I've had excellent TDI and IANTD instructors as well, though I've heard of some bad ones. FYI, my TDI guy made me follow a line with no mask, maybe it was just him. I go less by agency and more by recommendations from divers I trust now. If you're going by agency, I hate to say it but I'd go with GUE if you don't mind some tough love. Otherwise I'd find a good TDI instructor - they're less cave-focused than others.

[MikeFerrara]

As others have said, its not the gas that requires the skill development it's the type of dive that the gas will be used for. My personal opinion is that cave training is great preperation for any technical diving. The skilles learned will serve you well for all diving.

[trheeltek]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As others have said, its not the gas that requires the skill development it's the type of dive that the gas will be used for. My personal opinion is that cave training is great preperation for any technical diving. The skilles learned will serve you well for all diving.

That's great advice, I second it. Cave training is great preparation for any diver - cave divers are the best divers around.

[AquaTec]

G2

First a question; It sounds like you are doing your diving in the Cayman Islands. Is that true? If so I can offer some recommendations on instructors etc as many of the Trimix instructors there are personal friends of mine.

Well here is my two senses worth, first to help you consider the source of this advice
I took the Trimix divers level course with IANTD and I am a TDI Trimix instructor.

You have received some good advice here already but I will just reiterate and add a few things.

The most important part of your Trimix course is the diving skills you will learn. Gas management, the physiological effect of helium, equivalent nitrogen depths, etc. all of that will teach you how to perform a dive deeper than 100 feet using helium as an inert gas.

PUG is right when he says you can learn it by reading the material from many sources [I am sure that he didn't imply that it wasn't better to have a person teach you] he was trying to demonstrate the simplicity of it [PUG hopefully I got that right]

But presumably you are learning about Trimix to dive deeper, which will certainly require decompression, which then leaves you diving in an overhead environment. Now we had better be self sufficient and prepared to handle any emergency without surfacing.

Sounds so simple doesn't it. The skills you described have their origins in cave diving true. [By the way I am a full technical cave diver] caving skills are very different yet similar to Trimix skills. [Say multiply the Trimix skills by 100]

The skills in your Trimix course are two fold. One is to add stress to your diving and then perform tasks under stress. The second is to be able to be self sufficient at depth while maintaining perfect buoyancy control [if you have several things go wrong and you are at your 200 foot deco stop [or any stop] you do not want to be moving up and down through the water column while solving the problem.

As good as you are at your diving skills now you will be surprised how you will move 20 feet or more while say doing gas shut down drills with no mask on, heck or even with your mask on. With training and practice you will do the skills without moving even a foot.

In both IANTD and TDI you will experience and be expected to perform skills under stress at or beyond your comfort zone. This is important in skill development as you are bound to have something go wrong someday, and knowing you can solve problems while under a great deal of stress will save you life someday.

Much of you skills are also designed to streamline your swimming abilities. Remember you will be caring at least four tanks with you, and if you are in Cayman you will notice it while swimming across those sand flats for 15 minutes

One thought on which agency. This is where fireworks always fly around here.
IANTD, TDI, GUE, PADI Tec whatever, ANDI. I am sure there are more to choose from.

I have lots of experience with TDI and IANTD, yet limited experience with the others so my views are partially informed. I think that anybody who recommends an agency probably have the same story, it is hard to comment on other agencies unless you have actually taken a course from that agency, not just read about it on the net.

Be cautious of any agency that says theirs is the only one that can teach you properly.
All agencies will provide you the skills you need to perform the dives safely. So after that in my opinion it would come down to picking an instructor by reputation and type of diving they are doing. For instance if they are teaching Trimix diving. Are they performing deep dives using helium? Again if you are in the Caymans I have some friends there that I dive with, we are doing dives deeper than 400 feet on open circuit and 500 on closed. You want to learn from those who have depth of knowledge they can pass on to you. Not that you are planning on that kind of diving but I am trying to show a difference between someone who dives only in class situations and one who is diving in a real environment. [And there is a difference in the real environment, things go wrong there, and the way it is handled can then be passed onto you through first hand experience]

As for what agency to recommend, [given the same instructor teaches for all agencies]
IANTD and TDI are very similar with a couple of exceptions
IANTD – makes you do a lot of swimming, TDI does not, this is to one see if you can swim and two add a level of stress and commitment to complete the program [this is the short reason]
TDI – skills are all done in shallower water, where as IANTD requires you to perform all the skills at all depths.
Otherwise I think they are both the same or at least similar.
These agencies I have little experience with but I have dove with and/or interacted with the instructors
PADI – I think they are to knew to the game, they have good materials, but it feels more like a PADI specialty not a tech course
ANDI – I do not know a whole lot about this agency
GUE – [being cautious here] puts out good divers, but also each of those divers comes out with a very derogatory attitude towards other divers not of their religion. And believe their way or die. I believe they have stopped evolving, stopped testing new techniques and theories. [Except of course for the grand master who then tells his disciples how they will dive.

Well I have been rambling on enough for now. If you have more specific questions don’t hesitate to ask.


ps my daughter wanted to add some faces so here goes
:mean: :jester: :balloon:

[padiscubapro]

Aquatec,

I have to strongly disagree with you with the assessment of ANDI.. The agency is rapidly growing especially outside the United States. At my last count ANDI now has around 90 different certifications, which include, open water, oc technical, first aid, cpr ect, rebreathers SCR and CCR, and Hyperbaric chamber operator training..
ANDI standards are very tough especially on instructors there are no administrative crossovers, and becomming an IT is a major accomplishment.. If you look at the heads of most of the technical agencies out there most of those individuals were either ANDI instructors or ANDI instructor trainers.

I teach both TDI and ANDI technical classes and the ANDI requirements are much higher and academically stonger.. TDI recognizes ANDI programs (its right in their Instructor manual) , so when I do a class that is to be issueing a TDI cert I hold my students to the higher standards.

The most difficult TDI exam is probably the extended range exam and its open book(its definately harder than the trimix exams), The ANDI technical diver exam (first tech rating) is closed book, considerably more difficult and covers much more material.

The one thing that sets ANDI apart from the others is both a plus and a minus, All instruction must be facility orientated.. There is no independent instruction allowed. All students that get technical certifications get questioneers from HQ. This way HQ can keep close tabs on its instructors, recreational certs generally get at least 1 questioneer per class. (off hand I can think of 1 current TDI instructor trainer, that was kicked out of ANDI for standards violations which was immediately caught by questioneers)

I can speak about this agency from first hand knowledge, since I have been doing alot of work for them over the past year including their new certification card system. I'll be working their boot at DEMA this year.

For a perspective on other agencies I also did training with Erika, Reg and others at SunsetHouse. I have been diving mix since around '95 and decided to get officially certified just a few years ago.. At home its never been a problem since I have always blended my own gasses but traveling everyone wants to see your card.. Plus I thought it was about time I started teaching some of these classes...

[andibk]

Padiscubapro
I could not have put it any better myself. I agree with you 100%.
Oh by the way I am in the middle of AZIMUTH and INSPIRATION course as we speak. Tomorrow morning in the pool and next day on the boat with the INSPIRATION. I managed to get a course on both units.

Bruce

[AquaTec]

ANDI
Sorry about that. I was speaking based on this area, and not the whole world. It is obvious that i do not know much about ANDI and have edited my post to indicate that.

Thanks for the clarification

[padiscubapro]

Aquatec,
I didn't want my last post to sound like I was attacking you...
Many people know the name ANDI but don't know much about it.. Frankly you'll never see lots of ANDI facilities around mainly because most dealers wount spend the extra money necessary.. Its all about the buck...

ANDI has a few policies that don't go over well with many dealers..

1) ANDI takes the stance that all equipment used for enriched oxygen service should be dedicated, and many dealers feel this scares away their customers.
2) ANDI has very high gas purity standards(the highest I can find listed) that must be met by all facilities and quarterly testing is mandatory (with a copy of the report to ANDI HQ). Many other agencies either suggest it, or "require" it but never require proof or take sanctions against those that don't do it.
3) ANDI classes are extensive, there are no quickie classes and the instructor has to work for each class.. The ANDI CSU class - The main "nitrox ", ANDI does have an introductory class that can be taught in conjunction with ow, but CSU is the main cert issued. The CSU class takes around 12 hours plus 2 dives, much longer than any other agencies class..

ANDI seems to do well in countries where governmental regulations are already in place.. The most active regions that I can think of is Israel and Germany.. ANDIBK, is a regional licensee of ANDI, and I hear he is quite busy.

Are you going to be going to DEMA if so hopefully we can get together for a few beers..

[AquaTec]

Yes i will be going to DEMA

OK so I have a question for you to better edgucate myself

1 - Is it true that anything over 21% oxygen content needs to be treated the same as pure O2

2 - If the above is true, then why

I am not aware of any other industry that requires such a standard, I shouldn't say industry but organization.

[padiscubapro]

AquaTec once bubbled...
Yes i will be going to DEMA

OK so I have a question for you to better edgucate myself

1 - Is it true that anything over 21% oxygen content needs to be treated the same as pure O2

2 - If the above is true, then why

I am not aware of any other industry that requires such a standard, I shouldn't say industry but organization.

Charlie Johnson one of ANDI's ITs put together a collection of all the relevant publications (its currently 2 large binders).. I haven't updated my copy in about 2 years but I'll look through it and see If I can find the 2 listed below..

The thing that stuck me was going through these documents some are from the scuba industry manufacturers, they specifically state for nitrox service the technician must follow ANDI oxygen service standards. Another thing that was true (not sure if it still applies), Germany has 2 major gas suppliers, both require ANDI gas blending and service tech certs to buy oxygen, they didn't recognize any other agencies ratings.


CGA uses a similar standard.. I would have to look up the numbers but its around 23%

I don't kniow about current NASA standards, but in the past they also supported this stance.

Originally I didn't support ths stance myself, but I have come to support it also.. I do all my own reg service, my main regs were always overhauled quite often, while my other regs went at least a year between service. The regs that were exposed to nitrox that weren't rebuilt using viton and oxygen compatible lubricants showed considerable degradation on all the orings that were exposed to the high pressures.. It wasn't greatly noticable on my main regs due to the frequency of service but was quite evident on those with "normal" service intervals.

Burna-nitrile does work but sooner or later the odds are there will be a problem.. Here is an extreme example that at least shows how unpredictable things can be...

I dive an Inspiration rebreather my oxygen reg unknown to me had a burna nitrile o ring on its DIN face.. I dove this for months without any problems.. I always slowly cracked the valve to bring the reg to pressure.. earlier this year someone else used the rebreather, and tuned on the valve quickly.. The oring combusted! Other than burn marks on the reg and valve there was no other damage(could have been much worse), but it clearly illustrates the unpredictability of the problem. In lower o2 concentrations I highly doubt complete combustion, but with a fuel source such as compressor oil, incomplete combustion is definately a possibility... I'd rather not find out that one of my orings were damaged when I try to take a breath at depth.. Regs are cheap, my life isn't.

Joe