Anyone Considered XS Scuba's HP 40 cf Pony Bottle?

[jim T.]

Mike at XS says this bottle is about the same size as a LP 19 so it seemed attractive.
Even if a HP complete fill isn't possible in some shops it seems like about a 35cf fill is likely @ 3,000? I'm pretty sure this is a relatively new product...

I really don't want to go into any "Why you want a pony" debates as I've read 'em all but would appreciate knowing if anyone owns/uses this bottle yet and what they think of it. If I'm willing to get at least a 30 cf fill in this bottle if I can't get a complete HP fill does anyone see a reason not to purchase one? I do wonder about using a steel pony with a steel 95 single. I'd probably sling it . I imagine tank mounting it would be too much of a trimming nightmare?

Thanks, Jim

[XS Scuba]

Hey Jim:
Just to be clear, what I said is the steel pony X5-40 has approximately the same height as a Luxfer aluminum 19, both are about 18.75 inches. Most of the other specifications are quite different, including diameter, tare weight, fill pressure, buoyancy, bottom shape, cost, exterior finish.

Steel pony cylinders are available in four sizes; 13 cuft, 19 cuft, 30 cuft & 40 cuft. All are DOT 3AA cylinders with a 10% overfill and TC (Canada) approval. The working pressure is 3130 psi, 3442 psi with 10% overfill. We have them manufactured in Tilbury, Canada by Worthington Cylinder. The exterior finish is Hot Dip Galvanization.

These cylinders are in stock and have been shipping since late last year. They are available through both XS Scuba and Sea Pearls dealers.

You can view the specifications of all of the new steel pony cylinders here http://xsscuba.com/tank_steel_specs.html

This link has the Luxfer aluminum cylinder specifications for comparison http://xsscuba.com/tank_alum_specs.html


Mike at XS says this bottle is about the same size as a LP 19 so it seemed attractive.
Even if a HP complete fill isn't possible in some shops it seems like about a 35cf fill is likely @ 3,000? I'm pretty sure this is a relatively new product...

I really don't want to go into any "Why you want a pony" debates as I've read 'em all but would appreciate knowing if anyone owns/uses this bottle yet and what they think of it. If I'm willing to get at least a 30 cf fill in this bottle if I can't get a complete HP fill does anyone see a reason not to purchase one? I do wonder about using a steel pony with a steel 95 single. I'd probably sling it . I imagine tank mounting it would be too much of a trimming nightmare?

Thanks, Jim

[scubaclimber]

They would be great if throwing your trim off wasn't a problem.

[moneysavr]

I use a AL 30 -1lbs a 40 AL is like -.74 I have no trim problem at all,Is the steel cheap? can or do you need more weight? Ponys dont have the cycle use just the fill in them all the time.
My 2 cents
oh
see my pal Barry at dive sales he haves some great tank prices steel/Al free ship and valve >you get the viz and gas!
www.divesales.com

[oxyhacker]

Also if you ever have to hand off or ditch the pony - I think the steels are about 6 lbs negative compared to a little under a pound for the alu.



They would be great if throwing your trim off wasn't a problem.

[jim T.]

Well, although the weight of the steel pony does invite other "considerations", trim, etc. I was thinking that removing the equivalent of the approx. 6 lbs. from that side of my belt wouldn't be a big deal if I sling the bottle. At the present time, I'm of the school that the pony is only for me in the event of an o ring failure, etc. but IF i sling it rather than back tank mount it, shoving a -6lb. bottle towards a buddy shouldn't be too much of an effort?

It's definitely the size of this bottle and its' ability to contain at least 30lbs. cf if I can't get a HP fill, that appeals. Does anyone know of a similar sized aluminum
30cf or 40cf bottle? (Not possible as far as I know due to LP/materials) I have dove to 90 ft. on tropical boat dives and thought having more than a 19cf in a similar size for travel or for my usual cold water/drysuit diving a great thing. Like many, I'm often paired with a buddy I don't know or who disappears in low viz. etc.
The relative bouyancy of an alum. pony at the end of a dive appeals also though, but I'm not excited about diving with the length of the usual 30-40cf bottle if there's another solution ala the XS bottle I'd be glad to hear of it.

Please keep the comments and education coming.

Thanks, Jim

[moneysavr]

Jim,
Your not using the gas in a pony,its a back up only! so weight is moot,
Gets some more dives in and see other guys rigs in your area,
good luck
Brad

[oxyhacker]

You are missing the point. it's not the effort of struggling to lift a 6 lb bottle, its the sudden change in buoyancy as you part with the bottle - you will suddenly be 6lbs more buoyant. OK 6lbs isn't all that much but if you are handing off/ditching a bottle you will probably be in an emergency situation and not need more distractions.


shoving a -6lb. bottle towards a buddy shouldn't be too much of an effort?

[Doc Intrepid]

Please keep the comments and education coming.Jim,

Not trying to dogtalk new ideas, but I think you may be over-analyzing the situation a bit.

A 'bail-out' bottle will only be used if you suffer some sort of catastrophic failure at depth, and there is no other diver immediately available to offer gas.

While putting yourself in that situation to begin with may be debated endlessly, the fact is that once in that situation - you're going up. You perform a gas switch onto your bail-out bottle, and you ascend. The amount of relative bouyancy it adds or does not add is rather immaterial, as - assuming you're not entangled, in which case you're having a really bad day - you're ascending to the surface. Shouldn't take you more than 7 minutes max, and thats from 120' with a 3 minute safety stop, at a relaxed rate of 30 fpm.

As Oxyhacker noted, you may need to hand off the bail-out (under some truly bizarre set of circumstances), but even then you should be weighted properly without it, and the mechanics of adjusting for the variance ought not to be too challenging.

So assuming you plan properly and never need to use your bail-out bottle, its sorta six of one, half dozen of the other. It's immaterial which one you purchase, because you're simply going to sling it each dive and never use it. If you DO use it, you'll be on the surface 7 minutes later and it will STILL be immaterial what its made out of.

Buy whatever you want.

But, you might want to note that its buttloads easier to O2 clean an aluminum tank than it is to O2 clean a steel tank. You'll need to VIP it and O2 clean it annually. Steel flash-rusts. Steel is a PITA to O2 clean. You can O2 clean an aluminum tank at your kitchen sink. To O2 clean a steel tank requires special chemicals to avoid rusting, stands to hold the tank inverted, tumbler, media, hoses, hot air driers, and other assorted logistics.

Steel costs twice as much as aluminum, hell, you can pick up an aluminum 19 for $50 - you see them on the board all the time.

So if you compare acquisition cost, and maintenance & sustainability cost and level of effort, I suspect you'll find that aluminum tanks are simply easier to deal with.

But whatever yanks your trigger.

Best,

Doc

[jim T.]

Oxyhacker, yes I figured on the buoyancy change. I have a pouch weight belt and always figured I'd start dropping 5lbs. at a time if I ever had to do an incremental ditch so I figured passing off a -6lb. bottle would be a similar deal...
I did miss the point in your post though!


Thanks Doc. As usual you're both concise AND detailed, just the kind of answers an overanalytical guy like me can use! :-)
I wasn't aware of the O2 cleaning issues so thanks for that. At this stage of the game I'm only dealing with air but I should consider future needs.

Yes, 99.9%-100% of the time I assume that I'll be packing the pony bottle out as full as I went in with it so the weighting/buoyancy issue seemed to be a minor consideration I can deal with.

My over anaylization of things stems from my still being a relatively new diver. You're not the first to notice that trait :-) (Just ask my wife!)

Thanks guys. I'll "weigh" this issue awhile longer and decide what I'll purchase in the next few months. I appreciate your help as always.

Jim

[FishTaco]

I think the point you may have missed or overlooked is that to be properly weighted in order to pass off the bottle safely without sending yourself to the surface. you would be grossley over weighting yourself in order to carry a few extra cu ft of gas.
If you are not afraid of the extra weight and trim issues or the idea that steel pony bottles are as stated before a bit more work to o2 clean and maintain, oh and I almost forgot cost about 2-3 times the cash of an equal al cylinder. Then by all means buck the system and go your own way.Remember things are done a certain way until something better comes along. But I would venture to say that this is not it.
just my .02 cents;) ;)

[dumpsterDiver]

if you do no deco dives why would you want to carry that much gas in a pony? A 19 should be ok in an ascent from 130 feet, and a 30 is more than enough. A steel pony makes no sense to me at all, primarily because of weight, bouyancy, cost and rust, all of which were mentioned before.

[jim T.]

FishTaco and dumpsterDiver,
Thank you. That's the education I was looking for and appreciate your points.
The potential 30-40 CF available in a bottle the size (roughly) of a 19CF bottle was the attraction. It was the other info. and specifics you guys and Doc and everyone pointed out that I needed to know to make an informed decision. I figured having that much more air available to me in a catastrophic failure emergency at 100 ft. depth or so, would be an easy choice but as usual, there is no free lunch. Everything has its' pros and cons and now I know what they would be.

I often get more specific info. here than from local shops so I appreciate your time and effort to help me out in the learning process.

[XS Scuba]

FYI: so far, the majority of the new steel pony cylinders we have sold are being used as a primary cylinder with our PonyPac. It's popular with lifeguards departments, PSD, yacht owners, etc... A link to the PonyPac is here: http://xsscuba.com/ponypac.html Just a small, compact package for a quick, shallow dive. The X5-40 is well suited for this use.

[Hoosier]

Jim,
But, you might want to note that its buttloads easier to O2 clean an aluminum tank than it is to O2 clean a steel tank. You'll need to VIP it and O2 clean it annually. Steel flash-rusts. Steel is a PITA to O2 clean. You can O2 clean an aluminum tank at your kitchen sink. To O2 clean a steel tank requires special chemicals to avoid rusting, stands to hold the tank inverted, tumbler, media, hoses, hot air driers, and other assorted logistics.


Doc

I also read the Oxyhacker's book though...

For the steel tank, the rust prohibitor should be used? (I know it is another debate here) And, the tumbling process is always required?

I did AL 02 clean many times, but I don't try the steel tank yet...

So~~~
Thanks in advance,
Hoosier