Training for Diver Stress

[Cave Diver]

Does anyone out there regularly add any sort of training into their normal dive routines, such as mask removal/replacement, out of air drills, etc?

Also, although I do not advocate any of this, especially for less experienced divers, does anyone have their buddy provide them with 'problems'. For example, having your buddy purposely knock your mask off, knock the regulator our of your mouth, etc. to simulate things that could happen if you were diving with inattentive or careless divers (which if you find yourself in that situation you should be looking for new buddies anyway).

I recently did a dive with ChrisPete and TxDeepDiver (Thanks again guys!) for that explicit purpose. I had them task loading me with stressors that I had to deal with while trying to maintain my compass heading and remain stable in the water column.

Just curious if anyone else does dives like this and if so, what are your favorite types of 'problems' to induce on your buddy?

Again, this is not intended to condone this type of activity, especially for inexperienced divers. I personally however have had some advanced types of training and I think it is a good idea for me to practice skills I have been taught in a somewhat controlled setting. If you have *NOT* had proper training for some of the skills mentioned, DO NOT attempt them on your own.

[Bomber]

if so, what are your favorite types of stress to induce on your buddy?

I dive with what you would call a AAA type. He has to be the leader, go in front, etc. After a full day of diving (following him BTW) I like to mention how cute I think his butt is.

That's a joke guys! either way, it stresses him to the max and seems to make him very aware of all aspects of diving on subsequent dives. Including, checking on me periodically instead of going off and leaving me to follow.

[jepuskar]

Do you like the fact that a constant stream of bubbles comes from his butt or just the general shape of his gluteus minimus?

[MikeFerrara]

Yup. We do stuff ike that. We started with little things like turming off air. When that wasn't any fun we started turning off air and pulling off mask. Now we do what ever our imagination can come up with. All of us handle all the stuff without a problem. Now we tease eachother if depth and trim are not maintained. Once in a while someone is a little sloppy and they hear about it.

A couple weeks ago while teaching a class in the pool. It was near the end of the evening and we had student playing with the buotancy course. BTW, we usually have almost a one to one staff to student ratio. A DM turned off my air while my wife came from the side and knocked off my mask. Rather than replace my mask after turning my air back on I slipped out of my scuba unit and hovered around the pool with everything under my arm for a while before replacing it all. Last night we were doing no mask share air through a buoyancy course (with very small hoops).

This stuff is good practice but if it isn't stressfull it isn't stress training. To induce any real stress I'm afraid our group would need to get dangerous. We do it just for fun and to show students how comfortable and in control a diver can and should be.

[Uncle Pug]

Shane and I do on occasion pull a simulated OOA on each other... but we are careful to make sure that it is in a safe place and time to do so.

I am not sure that stressing your buddy is a laudible goal... though it might have been great fun for TxDD and Chrispete to accomodate your desire to get ready for the Tech 1 class.

You will be task loaded during the class and then have various failures occur... but a key difference is that your buddy will be experiencing the failure too. Whatever failure I have is my buddies problem as well... and he is also a part of the solution.

If my buddy is intentionally the source of the problem then the whole training excercise is turned upside down. We need to learn to solve problems together but maybe just as importantly we need to proactively keep problems from developing.

For example... it is unrealistic that my buddy would take my mask from me in a real dive. More likely if I were to loose my mask somehow he would retrieve it for me. But even better should my buddy be paying attention and notice that my slap strap was loose and had floated up over my head and only water pressure was holding my mask to my face... and then he dealt with that potential problem before I lost my mask.

So, rather than stressing one another out... we try to discipline ourselves to situational awarness and buddy awareness and try to eliminate potential problems before they develop.

Tip: For your upcoming Tech 1 class - be aware of your own situation & your buddie's situation... do not lose track of that when an incident *happens* or more incidents will *happen* and the cascade will start.

[Cave Diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Now we do what ever our imagination can come up with. All of us handle all the stuff without a problem. Now we tease eachother if depth and trim are not maintained. Once in a while someone is a little sloppy and they hear about it.

Can you give examples of other stuff your imagination comes up with? And the maintaining depth and trim are exactly the kinda of things I am talking about.

At some points they were throwing three failures at me at once. Knocking mask off, turning air off and adding/removing air from my BC while I was dealing with the other two problems.

Makes for some interesting comments.

[Uncle Pug]

Bomber once bubbled...
I dive with what you would call a AAA type. He has to be the leader, go in front, etc.
Doesn't sound like a leader to me.... or someone who understands how to buddy dive.

[jbd]

have recently added such stuff to our dives together.

[MikeFerrara]

Before we go further I want to point out that when we do this stuff we are not conducting training, we are just clowning around. My point was - mask off "so what"...air off "no biggie" Only certain divers are involved and only under certain conditions like pools or a site with similar conditions. There is, I think, a big difference between one or more GUE instructors conducting such exersizes in a class and divers who have taken DIRF conducting them. If you ever see a diver panick at depth you will never forget it. Be careful not to get yourself into a situation you may not be able to handle.

The point of the GUE drills and one UP was I believe pointing out is that the goal is to be capable, comfortable and aware enough to not be so wrapped up in a minor problem that other things slip by and combine turning the situation into a big problem. If it takes all your consentration to clear a mask then while you are doing so someone is solo (the team is disfunctional). If you can't hold your depth while taking care of a minor problem and you blow out the vis, things just became more complicated and team seperation may result.

Minor issues such as these pranks should not induce stress or be much of a distraction. What your after is a functional team. All members should be a functioning part of the team even while clearing a mask or installing a jump reel or checking to see if their left post has rolled off or dealing with some other task or problem. The functional team is aware of these tasks, prioritises and manages them . In a team of three you should have three who can contribute to a solution, threfore avoiding stress and further complications.

Why is everyone so amazed by this stuff?

[JimC]

Why is everyone so amazed by this stuff?

My guess would be that you don't get it in most courses.

To get this sort of information you have become aware that should should know it, or happen to blindly stumble onto excelent training which teaches it.

Most people just arn't interested in knowing what they know, or even knowing that they don't know something.

[Uncle Pug]

Inducing stress should not be the goal of training... it is not even a means to achieve a goal.

The introduction of failures in a controlled training evironment is not done to induce stress (though it might) but rather to provide the opportunity to learn problem solving.

In a GUE Tech class you don't have two guys ganging up on one... pulling pranks with out rhyme nor reason...

You don't even find assistants producing or inducing problems for a buddy pair... the assistants are there to monitor and provide safety back up... & the videographer is there to catch it all on tape.

Even the GUE instructor is not going to be knocking regulators out of students mouths... though for specific scenarios he might remove a mask, or two, or three (yes, Shane & I lost three masks to Andrew... one right after the other.)

Andrew G. is a master at this. He follows you unseen as you go about executing your dive plan and when he sees the potential for a failure that you have created he will come in and give you what is needed to learn the lesson at hand.

Swim away without being aware that your buddy is falling behind and Andrew will grab your buddy and signal for him to stop... letting you wander off (both of you still observed by the assistants)... if you persist... he may find you (he is fast) and give you the signal that you are OOA... at which point you turn around and find that your buddy has been left behind and....

Andrew does not create the situations... you create them. He is careful to do this in shallow water and can deal with situations that get out of hand. He is very good at what he does.

But the idea of practicing *stress inducing failures* by stripping off masks and taking away regulators... especially when done by those who could not manage a situation gone sideways... is a very bad idea... perhaps one of the worse ideas ever.

What would you do if that person you stressed by ripping off their mask, taking out their regulator, turning off their tank valve and dumping their BC ended up drowning?

What would the lawyers of your victim's family do to you and your family?

[chrispete]

First of all, many assumptions are being made here based on very little info:

The lake - This was not a 50-60f dive, the deepest point in this lake is 21f, and my computer calc'd our average depth as 16f. The water temp was 88 degrees. There is little to no debris on the bottom and is a nice, easy dive site.


two guys ganging up on one... pulling pranks with out rhyme nor reason..

The reason to have 2x people there was for the added safety factor (TXDD and I were a buddy team, flanking and a bit behind CD at all times.) We were not randomly jumping CD, rather, we would communicate the type of failure that we wanted to induce, and then do our seperate parts. Triple failures were usually spaced (i.e. mask flooded, while purge is in progress shut off tank valve, and then while valve turn-up was in progress, bump some air into his BC.) No two failures were ever done to life support at the same time (i.e. pulling reg and turning off 1st stage at the same time was not done or even contemplated.)


especially when done by those who could not manage a situation gone sideways...

This is a gross generalization, though I will grant that I'm still a novice diver with only 42 dives under my belt in the past 3 months, but a) I'm not some kind of idiot cretin and TXDD isn't either, b) I for one made sure that I had my octo hose ringed with at least a finger anytime it was necessary, c) we always stayed at our stations, usually even with or a head's length in front of CD when a failure was in progress - he knew exactly where we were should he have needed us to initiate a bailout, and d) we briefed pre-dive what the limitations on situations were, what the emergency plans were, and most importantly what the goal of the dive was.

The goals of the dive were:

To practice self-rescue - in an adverse situation where one or both divers face an emergency, being able to stabalize your own situation before helping the other person would seem to me to be a necessity. If you are not comfortable with pulling yourself out of a failure and can't do it, you have exactly a 0% chance of helping your buddy if they are in trouble as well.

To practice bouancy - CD wanted to make sure that he was able to hold trim while dealing with the situations that we presented. In his line of diving (cave) this would again seem to me to be essential for providing the best possible outcome of a real emercency.

To practice navigation - CD wanted to work on holding a true line while being task loaded.


Finished with the rebuttals, now to try and steer this thread into a more constructive direction. Supervised practice to the point of being 100% comfortable and sharp in these skills is not practical. What would you guys recommend for continued practice of these situations that would help keep skill levels sharp while maintaining a high level of safety?

(UP, thanks for the description of the DIRF class methodology, now I actually understand the what it's basically about, and as far as the land-shark argument, I do have to grant that one)

[Uncle Pug]

... you miss what my post was about.

We have a lot of folk reading this thread... and some might think that the stress drill as first presented (and then amplified by our other distiguished guests) is a good idea... they might even go out and try something like it themselves... and somebody might get killed for no good reason Chris.

So you feel a need to defend what you guys were doing... fine... get some more facts out on the table... fine... but I disagree that what you guys were doing... (even after the explaination)... was a good idea. Perhaps I could understand if you had said that you are trained and skilled in this kind of instruction... but I'll bet you aren't.... if I am wrong I apologize.

So you want to steer this thread into a more constructive direction?


Supervised practice to the point of being 100% comfortable and sharp in these skills is not practical.

I'll let CD talk to you about this after he takes his GUE Tech 1...

In the meantime the most constructive advise I have (not just for you... but for everyone reading this thread) is to take a GUE class so you can see first hand the methodology that works AND is safe.

[Ron Brandt]

I did stuff like that 22 years ago when I did my NAUI and ACUC training.

One other kind of stress training is to become (name an agency) scuba instructor. A different kind of stress.

I believe the best way to deal with stress underwater is to stay in top physical comdition .

Ron

[Cave Diver]

First of all, let me clear something up. Perhaps the word 'stress' was the wrong word to use for the description of this post. Perhaps 'skill training' would have been a better phrase.

I do NOT advocate divers doing the practice, training, skills or whatever you wish to call it that we did. I am aware however (and as several who have posted admit) that there are divers that do this type of 'training' and I wanted to get an idea of who was doing what.

This training was also not done as an anticipation of what I would get during the GUE class. The sole purpose of this exercise from my perspective was to make sure that regardless of what situation I was dealing with I was able to keep my position in the water under control.

UP, I agree 100% that under normal circumstances a buddy wouldnt be the cause of a problem like this, and would instead be an invaluable help. I also advocate buddy awareness and I have NEVER had my mask or regulator knocked loose by anyone I was diving with. Why? Because I do my best to stay aware of where they are in relation to me at all times, ESPECIALLY when we are in close proximity or low visibility.

However, there could be any number of other causes for a mask to get knocked loose (current, etc.) and I would like to make sure that I am comfortable with skills such as those in the event that it ever did happen. If I were to loose a mask under less favorable conditions I would be much better prepared to deal with it because of the practice that I had.

As far as these situations, Yes I have practiced these before. They were part of my cave training. The instructor would have me turn the valve on left post off, breathe till that reg was out of air, switch to backup, turn left post on, turn right post off, breathe till backup was out of air, switch back to primary, turn right post back on. And I was diving doubles in our little 20' mudpuddle and I did get practice in turning both tanks on and off several times thanks to CP and TDD. I also had to follow a line with no mask on. So these were not 'new' skills to me. Rather they were just allowing me to keep up practice on training I already had in the event I ever needed it.

I was comfortable with them doing these things to me, but this thread was not about that. My question was does anyone else do this, and if so to what extent.

If anyone does not feel capable of handling a mask off during a dive or feel comfortable with the idea of running out of air, maybe they shouldnt be diving in the first place. And even if they are comfortable with it themselves, they still should be practicing it without reliable and competent buddies. I happened to have had not one, but two and I would do the same dive again anytime.

[Ghost.Diver]

Good divers are always learning,
as one SCUBA publication points out. I would think that most divers would think this way also. CD does and that is why we were doing what we were. Most everyone can remember back to there open water checkout dives when we were told my the instructor that are air would be shut off, and so it was. Then we were told to flood/remove our mask and put it back on. And we did. Like I said, most of us can remember this tasks way back when. CD doesnt like to sit and wait. He is always learning, never wanting to let his skills get lax. That is one reason he is taking the DIRF class, to hone his skills.

This was a controlled excercise in "real world" problems and to make sure that it could be handled without problems. I've known CD for years now and one thing I know is that if he asks a question about something, he generally knows the answer already. If he did not feel he could handle this, he never would have asked. The first time we dd this, it was on one of the training platforms in the same lake. I was there as well as another member of our team, who is an instructor.

A couple things about the three of us involved in this this. First off, when we arrived at the lake, there were two other divers there who were leaving. So, there was not a possibility of other divers being involved. CD and myself got certified together, went through Advanced, EANx and Rescue together. He then got Cave certified and now he is working towards DM certification. Even though Chris is fairly new, he has exceptional skills and control.

As Chris stated, at anytime part of CD's life support was intruppted, either he or I was right at hand with our Octo or CD's reg. It was the same situation as if diving with your buddy and your regulator got snagged, or a roll off in an overhead enviroment, or having your mask knocked off. So, yes we might have been tempting fate, playing with fire, etc but any of the things that we did could have happened in a real world situation. I know that everyone doesnt agree with what we were doing and there is no justificaiton to satisfy them but we really dont need there approval.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

[Uncle Pug]

OK... you guys win.
Sleep well.

[KZMAN]

Be Realistic! Could this really happen, or are we just loading?

[MikeFerrara]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
... you miss what my post was about.

We have a lot of folk reading this thread... and some might think that the stress drill as first presented (and then amplified by our other distiguished guests) is a good idea... they might even go out and try something like it themselves... and somebody might get killed for no good reason Chris.



I guess I would be one who amplified the presentation. I attempted a recovery though.

[Cave Diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
OK... you guys win.
Sleep well.

UP,

It is not about winning. It is about diving and having fun. I reworded the original post in a way that I hope more effectively communicates my intent, and I (hopefully) made it clear that this is not something I advocate and should not be done if without first having proper training. Obviously some people are more comfortable in the water than others and are better able to deal with things that may happen.

If losing a mask at depth doesnt cause me undue stress or panic, then I am less likely to lose my buddy while dealing with the mask problem and end up with cascading problems that may be unmanageable.

Again, it was just a question about whether anyone else does anything to keep their skills sharp and if so, what do they do?

[Uncle Pug]

KZMAN once bubbled...
Be Realistic! Could this really happen, or are we just loading?
But in GUE tech training multiple failures are introduced as the students (always a buddy team) make room for the failures. While it is unrealistic that Shane and I would lose three masks between us... the scenario called for us to make a staged decompression ascent with gas switch but with one of the buddy pair maskless (twas me.)

The types of failures and scenarios are (as best I can tell) dictated by the specific needs of the individuals being trained. No matter how good you are... Andrew G. will find your weakness and exploit it.. allowing you to learn. Everything is video taped for debrief and here is an interesting tid bit:
There are always those who want to argue with Andrew and try to defend their actions... even going so far as to blame him for their stupid moves... but the evidence is right there on video.

I am so glad that all this stuff doesn't happen with recurring frequency out on the real dives... but I am also glad (now that it is over and the thoughts of taking up golf have disappeared) that I was task loaded and challenged like this. I will say that I probably need a refresher but I am not about to subject myself to this kind of stuff without someone like Andrew, Nick and Todd in control.

[Uncle Pug]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I guess I would be one who amplified the presentation. I attempted a recovery though.
Wisdom always comes to the fore...

[Uncle Pug]

Who will be your Tech 1 instructor and have you had any GUE classes before?

I have a tip for you that I will send in a PM.

[chrispete]

I'd have to say that between this thread and the report posted by large_diver I've learned quite a bit about the DIRF class and it's workings in the past couple of days - it wasn't what I had expected. Now I wish I'd have taken up your invite to go with you guys to the class John.

[Cave Diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Who will be your Tech 1 instructor and have you had any GUE classes before?

I have a tip for you that I will send in a PM.

Uncle Pug.

Somewhere I believe that you have gotten your information mixed up. First off, thanks for the tip in the PM, but I need to correct a few things.

I am not, and have never stated that I am taking a GUE Tech 1 class. I am taking a DIRF class this weekend. I have mentioned this fact in several other posts, but it was not discussed by me in this one, nor was that a basis for my posting this thread.

To my knowledge, DIRF class is an introduction to the Do It Right philosophy with a focus on proper equipment configuration, buddy awareness, dive planning etc. as well as honing the 'barely passable' skills that most people learn in an OW class.

The 'training' that I did the other day which caused me to be curious about what other people did and led to me posting this was not in anticipation of having a GUE instructor rip a mask off of my face. The only correlation between what we did and the upcoming DIRF class is that during both I want to make sure that my bouyancy, trim and awareness are where they need to be.

If I thought that the DIRF class was going to be as simple as dealing with a few 'problems' such as these, I would just skip the class and give CP and TDD the $325 I paid to take it instead.

I have no hard feelings regarding your posts or comments, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just want to make sure you understand that the purpose of my original post was to find out if anyone else did any sort of training, what kind of training they did, and why they did it.

[Uncle Pug]

Cave Diver once bubbled...
Somewhere I believe that you have gotten your information mixed up.
>>>>>>>
I just want to make sure you understand that the purpose of my original post was to find out if anyone else did any sort of training, what kind of training they did, and why they did it.
Yes, I understand what you were trying to find out.

Please let me know what you find out in the DIRF.

[Cave Diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Please let me know what you find out in the DIRF.

Sure thing. I intend to post a detailed thread about my experience, good or bad.