Problem with my Pioneer 27# wing

I dove my Halcyon pioneer 27# today in fresh water. I was severly overweighted. I had an aluminum 80, my SST Fred T back plate, OMS single tank adaptor, 2 backup lights, a pelican, and a 3mm wetsuit. I could not stay at the surface at all. I had no weights on me at all, but I was still too heavy. I expected the 3mm to off set my back plate weight, but it did not. I had my wing over inflated until my OPV was burping, and I could barely keep a float.

My problem is, If I wanted to dive a single tank in the future, would I have to get a lighter backplate. I was fine underwater, and could still swim the rig up easily on an empty wing, but I could not stay at the surface. I dive often enough in just a tee shirt. I do not think that the pioneer wing could support the backplate, Tank, STA, and me.

Has anyone else had this problem?

ADAM

do you have a light or heavy plate?

the light plate is about -6lbs, the heavy about -9lbs

how much weight do you wear in salt water with the same rig?

i have the "light" stainless plate and a 38lb wing. i wear about four pounds of weight in fresh water with an al 80 while wearing a three mil. but i wear a lot of neoprene(surface area)

the stainless plate seems to be suited for offsetting positive bouyancy of say a dry suit or"personal bouyancy"

YMMV

Leo

... it is the plate... you should evidently be using an aluminum plate... and maybe ditch the STA and go with the one built into the wing itself (if you have the newer wing.) That way you might even be able to wear a small amount of ditchable weight.

That said... the 27# wing doesn't provide 27# if lift in fw.... fact is mine doesn't pull 27# in sw here in the PNW. With a flat LP104, 6# SS plate, 6# lead channel weight (experiment now removed), regulator and pro4 canister light it was just slightly negative... that doesn't add up to 27#.

What's a "pelican?"

I'm in the process of selcting a FredT bp myself... Not sure which material to choose, but I think I'm going to go without a STA and with a 27lb Halcyon wing like your rig. With the same gear, I normally wear 6-8 lbs of ditchable... And so I'm kicking around the idea of a FredT SS light, which would be 6lbs... So I'd be swimming with no ditchable in fresh, with an AL80 and 3mm suit. In salt or with more suit I'd swim with a little ditchable.

So I'm interested in what your findings are about this topic. Is your FredT heavy or light? Short or long?

I dive with a 3mm one piece gold core in shallow quarry dives. I have a Faber HP100 and a FredT AL backplate and Halcyon 27lb pioneer wing. I have the long plates. I need 0lbs of added weight. With wing pumped up it will support me at the surface. With it empty I sink. Oh, a small lift bag, Dive rite HID wreck1, backup light, and a spool. Both when tank is full or at 500psi. And I can swim it up. With this set up in my enviroment I don't go past 50feet. Too cold.

You will be different. I'm 6'2" and athletic build. 190lb. Even if we are the same size body fat content would make us different.

Faber HP100 is about 7lbs negative when empty. One of the big reasons I like using them and have 6 of them and 4 HP80 fabers.

If you aren't diving with a dry suit I'd buy the Al plate. Adding 6lbs isn't a big deal.

And if your gonna use a AL 80. Put the 6lbs on the bottom of the tank. For Trim. Or 3lb bottom, 3lb ditch.

It gets cold,45 f, in a fresh water quarry at around 50ft. So I use a dry suit past that. And a different setup.

Mverick once bubbled...
And if your gonna use a AL 80. Put the 6lbs on the bottom of the tank. For Trim. Or 3lb bottom, 3lb ditch.

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Hey, Mverick... Would doing an AL80 and a SS bp (the FredT light, worth 6 lbs) do the same thing? I mean, assuming everything else is the same?

Thoughts?

The 6lb backplate isn't movable so you can't shift it for trim. You can shift the tank up and down but it's not as effective as having the 6lbs movable on the tank.

And I'm kinda a firm beleiver in using a AL backplate with a wetsuit. You have more options. Wanna use a steel. With that Stainless backplate you're gonna be in trouble. Well could be. MT tank figures. A LP is usually around Neutral. My HP is around 6-7lbs neg. While your AL80 is around 4lb pos. And your not supposed to use steels with a wetsuit either. Per DIR. But I like mine and have done so for a while.

Wanna dive in a t-shirt and shorts. You just knocked out the bouyancy that your wetsuit offered. So you'd be heavy.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I have probably 6 backplates. So I use the right one for me.

If I were you, I do AL. If you get into tech and buy a new drysuit and LP steels and a 55lb wing plus extra regs and reels and bags and cannister light. The $100 for a SSt backplate isn't even a drop in the bucket. Then you wouldn't have to swap your setup to be optimum. And for singles you already have a optimum rig.

That's what I tried to do. You do end up with extra gear. But it's all optimum for you.

Or do what I did. Buy both plates at the same time.

But if the steel is to heavy you're stuck. If the AL is to light you just add a little weight. And a little weight is fine. It's when I have to wear 30lbs with a drysuit I cried. The Dual HP 100's solved that.

Interesting.

Firstly, let me thank you for your opinion of experience. I'm new to this whole bp/wing thing... In fact, I'm still just kickin' it around. I've dived with one only twice... Once with a pair of steel 95's (my first doubles experience) in a 3/2 mil at Ginnie Springs last weekend. I was terribly overweighted, and would not want to dive like that again. Feeling that dependent on my wing was not a comforting feeling. Good thing I was only in 30 feet of water, in case of emergency.

The other time I used a bp/wing combo was with an AL80 in a pool, again with my 3/2 miml on. I didn't much care for it at all... The whole rig was very stable, but very uncomfortable (especially the crotch strap), and very much had the tendency to put me face forward in the water. I had a similar experience with a Zeagle back inflate BC that had a whopping 55 lb lift capacity for a single (!). Can you say, "all over the place?"

Anyway, this Thursday or Friday I think I'll probably get the opportunity to try a CORRECTLY ADJUSTED (there were so many opinions that were so very opposite of what my experience was that I decided that I should give this another shot with someone experienced to help me set up) bp/wing. I've got lots of questions that I'm looking to have answered... Plate material was a biggie right off. 50% of my diving is done in freshwater, 50% in salt. For that reason, I thought that an AL plate was out, but come to find out, FredT has some awesome materials that will resist corrosion from salt water... Enough so as to make the corrosion issue pretty much moot. Then there's the "light" vs. "heavy" bp issue, if I go with SS... And if I don't, then Dive Rite is making an ABS plastic backplate that's inexpensive, obviously corrosion free, and supposed to be very easy on the webbing...

Then there's the webbing issue... DIR ("continuous") style, or "standard" style? "Deluxe" style? Chest strap? No chest strap?

I dunno... I just have to get in the water with these things to make a decision.

I'll tell you what I did like, though, out of everything I've tried up to this point...

I liked the Scubapro Classic jacket style BC... Integrated weights, good fit (for me) and it was very balanced under water. Convenient and well made pull dumps (don't laugh) everywhere that I still like, despite everyone's disgust. Actual usable pockets. Built in and integrated backplate. 55 lbs of lift (!) in a design that despite what people say about jacket style BC's, fit very close to my body when deflated and thus was quite streamlined.

The other thing that I liked quite a bit was the Transpac that I dove with... It managed to get all of the "stuff" off my chest, while still retaining the pull dump. I liked the modular design over the jacket style BC's, so that if something broke or I wanted to change/upgrade, it was easy and painless. The crotch strap which I found to be so intrusive with the bp/wing was totally forgettable. Once this rig was balanced, I found it to work very much with me and feel less "in the way" than the jacket style BC's. Unfortunately, I really missed the stability of the backplate that was integrated into the jacket style BC that I liked so much.

...So my "studies" seem to be brining me around to backplates and wings again... Taking everything off of the front of me and putting it behind, simplifying and streamlining. Stability in a backplate. Modular design for repairs and upgrades. And whereas I once thought that bp/wing setups and back inflates were "opinionated" about my trim underwater (and that jacket style BC's weren't), I have found that I can pretty much balance (or unbalance) anything I wear based on weight placement. My mistake was in putting weight in the same place on the Transpac and bp/wing as I did on the jacket style BC... Low and in the front. Predictably, this threw me horizontal even when I didn't want to be, like at the surface or exploring a wall. Moving the weight back toward my center of gravity (different now when the bladder's in back) tuned pretty much all of that out.

So in short, I'm back to bp/wing setups... Which is good, really, apparently, since I really would like to understand what all of the "hubub" is about. Everyone here seems to be in love with them.

But now there are so many choices... Good, right? Well... Yeah... But I need some experience to be able to make some educated decisions. And that's where my dive at the end of this week... And your thought processes (along with other experienced people's) come into play.

So what's your thoughts on the ABS plastic? Junk, or do they last? They're about as negatively buoyant as aluminum, but withing the corrosion in salt water...

Can I use a STA with a Pioneer 27? I'm not too keen on the "integrated STA" design. I think it'd mark up my tanks...

Man, I'm thinking about designing my own solution here... Or rather, asking FredT to make a design for me...

A bp specifically designed for use with singles... You know, like a travel bp/wing. Light, and designed for wetsuit, tropical and subtropical diving... With an emphasis on streamlining, minimizing, and simplifying. The STA-less Pioneer wings don't look all that great to me for a variety of reasons, yet I don't much care for the horseshoe-shaped Dive Rite wings... Maybe I could make a bp designed to work with the Transpac's Travel Wings... Those things were like 10" square... And had 30 lbs of lift!

Can I use a STA with a Pioneer 27? I'm not too keen on the "integrated STA" design. I think it'd mark up my tanks...

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Exactly the opposite. The "integrated STA" is two delrin rods inside of the wing. The tank rests against the wing material. My steel STA scratches my tank up. Some people recommend "tooldip" to coat the STA to prevent this. I recommend a big fat Nitrox sticker which seems to do the trick