Ankle Weights!!!

[dlarbale]

All (esp UP and Mike F)....

I've been having some heated debates with a fellow Instructor and a newly certified PADI open water student about the use of ankle weights. The debate got so heated that I blurted out that they should come diving with me and I'd show them that ankle weights are unnecessary and that the term 'floaty feet' is a load of garbage.

Well needless to say they've decided to take me up on the offer to show me once and for all that 'floaty feet' do exist and therefore their requirement for ankle weights is a valid one!!

So now I'm faced with the task of trying a few things to remove the necessity of ankle weights (and more importantly prove that I'm right :-)).

Now I've a few ideas of my own that will help me acheive this but what I don't want is for my lack of experience in getting someone else's trim right to result in yet another student wasting money on ankle weights. So what process would you guys go through in order to get the trim right?

Thanks in advance - Dave.

PS// I don't want to teach them the flutter or frog-kick just yet so lets stick with a normal (PADI) finning action.

[BadFish]

Try the gator wraps, Made by Halcyon, it keeps the air out of the ankles.

Oh yea and proper trim.

[dlarbale]

All,

FYI - the peope I'm talking about aren't using Dry Suits - I use a drysuit but have never found a need for either ankle weights or gator wraps.

What I need to know is how do I approach getting the trim right with a 'floaty feet' person? Do I start by moving the tank down a bit or ????

[neil]

dlarbale once bubbled...
All (esp UP and Mike F)....
PS// I don't want to teach them the flutter or frog-kick just yet so lets stick with a normal (PADI) finning action.

What exactly is a "normal (PADI) fin stroke?

In my experience, there are people who benefit from the use of ankle weights. Generally they are short and fat, can't wear a weight belt, and there is only a short range of adjustability for the tank position on their short torso. Never say never. :)

Neil

[Uncle Pug]

You went and stepped in it Dave... and now you have to get it off your shoe...

OK...

First of all realize that often it is the perception that the feet are floating too high rather than the actuality you need to deal with.

These folk probably fin pivoted their way in thinking that correct form is to swim through the water at a 45 degree angle.

The correct horizontal position with feet up (slightly for a modified flutter kick) will seem foreign to them... the will feel like their feet are too high.

You job will be to convince them that having their feet slightly higher than their head and torso is not a bad thing but a good thing.

I suggest that you do not start at the pool or ow divesite.... start on the floor in street clothes... and then put fins on them and let them try modified flutter kicks.

[madmole]

Sometimes Ankle weights are needed. I've just swapped drysuits to a new cold water membrane suit (Oceanic Aerdura), which has hard boots lined with 7mm neoprene. I've had to add ankle weight to counteract the positive bouyancy of these just to stay level

And before you moan about trim and bouyancy control, I should point out that I have over 2000 dives in a drysuit so I masterd trim a long time ago. I have tried managing without the ankle weight but cannot trim out without it. I do not need ankle weight on any other suit

Having said that, I do normally wear ankle weight. It means less weight on my weighjtbelt and makes wearing the drysuit in the water while not diving much easier and safer (ie launching RIB etc). Also means I can put extra air in when doing long ice dives for warmth (Which is far more effective than using argon)

Ankle weights are NOT bad (in fact quite the opposite). Excessive ankle weight (or any other weight) is

[Uncle Pug]

madmole once bubbled...
And before you moan about trim and bouyancy control, I should point out that I have over 2000 dives in a drysuit so I masterd trim a long time ago. I have tried managing without the ankle weight but cannot trim out without it.
...doesn't sound like you've mastered it at all.


*Masters of trim* don't need training wheels.

[nickjb]

Do the solid rubber fins favoured by those DIR chaps count as ankle weights;)

[chiara]

I'm not a techie and I abhorr DIR (I suppose that's about my right).

I wear ankle weights when wearing a drysuit (and only then) because if I didn't (checked) my feet would get out ot the boots.

And YES, I am part of the PADI family.

[Scubaroo]

nickjb once bubbled...
Do the solid rubber fins favoured by those DIR chaps count as ankle weights;) Well there are floaty fins and sinky fins...

[Lost Yooper]

Most divers wouldn't know perfect trim if they saw it, much less "master" it. There's a huge difference between *PADI trim* and proper trim.

Mike

[omar]

If you have the proper weighting and gear that fits properly, you will not need ankle weights.

Proper trim is a skill that needs to be learned. It also beyond the PADI skill set, irregardless of the number of dives.

omar

[Rick Murchison]

There are simply times when ankle weights are the best option. Here's a specific: I have a set of the "new style" 95's (suckers weigh 113 pounds full). Bands are as high as they can go without being above the shoulder; mounting them in the lower bolt holes on the BP and stationing the BP as low as is comfy, wearing an O'Neill 7m drysuit, with wing as far forward as it will go, from a horizontal position with neutral buoyancy I will tumble forward...
Sure, I can junk the 95's and get some longer tanks. Sure, I can buy a new drysuit. But given that I'm not rolling in cash, I'll opt for a little trim weight. Well, I'm already plenty negative without any additional weight, so I'd like to add as little weight as possible. I can add eight pounds as low on the tanks as it'll go, or I can add three pounds in ankle weights.
I choose the ankle weights.
And I'll be horizontal.
And no, a video won't show my knees drooping - I don't need a stinking video, I have silty bottom - and when it gets tight enough to be touching ceiling and floor, it's my sleek gut that touches.
Sure, I'd rather have new tanks and a 905... but until the money fairy does her thing, I'll stick with the ankle weights.
Rick

[sheck33]

chiara once bubbled...
I'm not a techie and I abhorr DIR (I suppose that's about my right).

I wear ankle weights when wearing a drysuit (and only then) because if I didn't (checked) my feet would get out ot the boots.

And YES, I am part of the PADI family.

it is your right to dislike DIR but do you dislike the philosophy itself or do you dislike some of the bad apples in the DIR community? I am asking because that is what i come across the most, because some arrogant 'DIR' diver told them they were 'strokes' they dislike DIR which is twisted and a shame.
But it is true that ankle weights are not needed in about 98% of the cases just as it is true that proper trim is beyond the PADI skillset as Omar mentioned.

See past some of the bad apples and reconsider, you will get so much more out of your diving :)

[MikeFerrara]

As UP said, one first needs to know (feel) what the desired position is. Humans go through life upright. When instinct takes over, the natural tendency is to go to our natural position (vertical). With this as with many other aspects of diving we need to learn new "natural tendencies" because the ones we learn on land don't serve us well under water.

Another thing is that people come in a wide variety of shapes, levels of fitness, flexibility and coordination. For some new students especially those who haven’t left the coach in 20 or 30 years it can be a challenge to descend in shallow water and have the balance not to flip over and land on their head or back. Some have difficulty learning control and comfort in a “weightless” environment. These prospective divers may never make the WKPP A-team but they can (read as will) engage in recreational diving. I mention all this because things that seem extremely simple and easy to an accomplished diver or even a new diver with some athletic ability may be very difficult for others.

I don’t know that you can address weighting (balance) alone. As technique (the ability to control body position) improves, weighting (balance) can be modified. One trip to the pool or lake may not do the trick with a new diver or worse yet with an instructor who “knows what he/she is doing”. Given the technique and equipment used, an additional piece of equipment (like ankle weights) may seem appropriate and may help make up for a lack of technique. To fix it I would start from the beginning.

Combine the above factors and you have a tough nut to crack.

Something I do with say an AOW student. After giving them the speach about how much less silty and easier things like navigation will be if we are horizantal both when moving and at rest I do UP's thing with the floor (A technique I picked up from an NACD instructor). Next I take them to the platform. At this point they are weighted as they see fit. These are certified divers (sometimes cocky) and if things are not right I want to show them not tell them. I ask them to hover and swim horizantally, which I am doing in front of them so they have something to look at. Most often they can't and class is on hold until they can at least come close. Now, we start to look at weighting and position. If they are totally ignorent of the process I give them the highlights of the trim lecture that I give my OW syudents (they may have had a different instructor). We work on these basic skills using the edge of the platform as a course until we make some progress. Almost always weight will come off the waist. Often students who thaought they had floaty feet, find out they really have sinking feet. Wet suit divers with thick wet suits usually need weight shifted from the waist toward the head. This is a good time to show some of the advantages of the back plate.

I too once had a drysuit with big boots and I thought I needed ankel weights. It was uncomfortable without the ankle weights but the boots didn't come off. I eventually got a dry suit with boots that fit and I keep the air out of them.

The comment on the 95's is interesting. I know divers (cave divers with good trim and buoyancy control) who swear by them. However, this is the second time in the last couple of days that I have heard the top heavy complaint. I would like to try them.

Why is it that some of you folks can't have a conversation about trim, which could be half way interesting, without making it a padi vs gue thing (which is getting boaring). And...my dad can beat up your dad so there!

[Rick Murchison]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
The comment on the 95's is interesting. I know divers (cave divers with good trim and buoyancy control) who swear by them. However, this is the second time in the last couple of days that I have heard the top heavy complaint. I would like to try them.

Got a set of LP 104's, 108's, 112's or 120's (in hydro, never overfilled beyond 10%) you want to trade for 'em? I don't overfill my tanks; these are 13 months since hydro (manufactured in '96), one month since VIP. I've owned 'em since new, so I know they've never been abused.
Rick

[MikeFerrara]

No thanks. I like my 104's. Let me rephrase that. I would like to try them without owning them or giving up a set of my 104's. oops...I mean 140's

[Uncle Pug]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
it's my sleek gut that touches.
... oh ponderous bellied one....
would that qualify you for a trencher cert? :D



~~~~~~~
How to turn 95s or 98s into 104s without overfilling in 4 easy letters:
EBAY

[chiara]

Scheck wrote:


it is your right to dislike DIR but do you dislike the philosophy itself or do you dislike some of the bad apples in the DIR community? I am asking because that is what i come across the most, because some arrogant 'DIR' diver told them they were 'strokes' they dislike DIR which is twisted and a shame.

No, I don't think the philosophy is crap, what I really don't understand is why most of those who only swear by DIR can't accept "doing it right" for someone can be different from what they do without being necessarily wrong.

I'll never forget what my Instructor for Nitrox, who has become a friend since, did for me (I was a Rescue diver already, albeit admittedly with not so many dives, I think I was at around 60 at the time, although in just over a year and in very different conditions, from freezing cold dark quarries to Allah's aquarium, most commonly known as the Red Sea).

My very teutonic friend (yes, he is German) went as far as renting an underwater video-camera (we ended up sharing the rental costs, he deserved it) to show me I was basically vertical while diving in a 3mms+lycra suit and obviously without ankle weights; I didn't do much damage except to myself as diving in the Sinai area is basically walls with perhaps 800 mts below (it is the case in Ras Mohammed).

The answer was simple: I was way overweighted.

I managed to get down to 4 kgs. (I had been using 7 for the previous week) and that taught me a very important lesson even for when I dive dry in winter.

I know my drysuit's boots are too big, but for the time being I have no money to get them readjusted :rolleyes:

Perhaps one day I'll end up knocking on some of your courses' door, but I'll certainly go to painful lengths before deciding which.

[sheck33]

you wont believe how i wish they'd called something like DIB, Do It Better rather than DIR..........If you can do it Better it doesnt mean you were doing it Wrong previously, people are much more accepting of change that way :)

[WreckWriter]

sheck33 once bubbled...
you wont believe how i wish they'd called something like DIB, Do It Better rather than DIR..........If you can do it Better it doesnt mean you were doing it Wrong previously, people are much more accepting of change that way :)

Agreed.

[Uncle Pug]

I like DIB...

But think that should stand for *Doing It Best* :D


I mean why settle for better when you can have best? ;)

[MikeFerrara]

So...dlarbale, how did ya get into this mess anyway?

[sheck33]

but then we have the same problem we have with DIR, doing it best sort of implies everybody else is inferior, hell i dont know what acronym to use :confused: :D

[Rick Murchison]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

... oh ponderous bellied one....
would that qualify you for a trencher cert? :D

I have spent over five decades cultivating it... a veritable thing of beauty...
Seriously, it's my chest that hits first, but I couldn't resist the temptation to allude to my hydrodynamic, seal-like overall physique.
Rick :)

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
.....
I too once had a drysuit with big boots and I thought I needed ankel weights. It was uncomfortable without the ankle weights but the boots didn't come off. I eventually got a dry suit with boots that fit and I keep the air out of them.

The comment on the 95's is interesting. I know divers (cave divers with good trim and buoyancy control) who swear by them. However, this is the second time in the last couple of days that I have heard the top heavy complaint. I would like to try them.
....


Precisely the problem that I'm having now! My boots are way too large and are trapping a huge amount of air. I'm using ankle weights to counteract this, and it's still wrong.

I used to dive the lp95's and the balance was WAY off. I switched to 104's and it's made a huge difference. Also switched from a SS backplate to AL to put more weight lower on the plane.

[Uncle Pug]

sheck33 once bubbled...
but then we have the same problem we have with DIR
Sheck... you may be good at math but other things just slither right past you... I'm gonna have to either load in a bunch more winkers or just come right out and state the obvious. :D


btw: for an acronym how about:
DITTOS RUSH
*doing it to the only standard regarding ultimate scuba holistics*


;) ;) ;)

[sheck33]

;) :D

[Rick Murchison]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
No thanks. I like my 104's. Let me rephrase that. I would like to try them without owning them or giving up a set of my 104's. oops...I mean 140's
Lessee... lessee... breaking out the old calculator here... teep..teep..teep.. uh, tha's one.four.zero... teep..teep..teep..teep slash.one.zero.four.. teep..teep..teep..teep..teep.. xray.two.six.four.zero.. teep .. equals... uh...
no thanks anyway...
Rick :)

[MSilvia]

I'm of the short legged tall folk variety, so I have to weight my top half just to keep my feet UP. I think my center of gravity is somewhere between my sternum and navel, so a weight belt tends to sink my stern half.

[Zept]

Dave, steel or AL tank? Jacket, back-inflation BC or backplate? What thickness wetsuit and how much weight (approx) is your floaty-feeted student carrying?

Zept

[dlarbale]

All,

Thanks for your replies so far. Not too sure how this has resulted in a DIR/Stroke *****ing match but at least there's been some usefull info.

I think lying them both on the floor and getting them use to the horizontal position is a good idea. From there I'll evaluate what's required and try moving some weight around - I'll get back to you all and let you know how I went!!

Zept - Both divers are using a Steel cylinder and diving in 7mm semi-dry's. The instructor uses a BCD that has some back inflation and the student is just using the normal rental BCD. Not too sure how much weight either of them is carrying, I'll find out and let you know.

It just doesn't make any sense to me how the feet can be more floaty then the top half of the body!! If they were using drysuits then I could sort of understand but the bouyancy characteristics of a semi-dry are evenly spread (if anything more bouyant towards the head!!).

Time to get them in the water and try a few basic things like Mike suggested (thanks!).

Later - Dave.

[DameDykker]

Hi there

I have a dry suit with too large boots and positive legs. Yes, I know you don't understand. But as a female with a larger lower body than upper (yes, that's thick legs and small breasts) I feel more comfortable with ankel weights. I could probably learn more about trim, but so far that's what makes me comfortable:)

[ERP]

Probably the wrong place to post this, but as a new diver I find this discussion interesting.

I don't remember anyone mentioning what correct trim even was on either my OW or AOW courses, and I had never really considered the affect that weight distribution has on trim. I think I swim slightly head down, but since I can't actually watch myself swimming who knows what the reality is.

Anyway carrying around little or no thermal insulation of my own (6ft , 155), and spending most of last weekend shivering in a 6.5 mm farmer john, in 50 degree water, I bought a drysuit, since I figured I might need some extra weight I also picked up a pair of 2lb ankle weights. Is this likely to detrimentally affect the probably already bad trim I have, should I condsider moving the extra weight elsewhere?

[Uncle Pug]

ERP once bubbled...
Is this likely to detrimentally affect the probably already bad trim I have, should I condsider moving the extra weight elsewhere?
Most likely... but they can be considered training wheels for novice drysuit divers... a better way to go would be velcro straps around the ankles to keep your feet in the boots (unless you are using rock boots.)

To get an idea of correct horizontal trim lay on your tummy on the floor with legs bent at the knee and feet pointing back.

You can check yourself out in the water by tipping your head down and looking directly back between your legs. If you can't do this and see behind yourself you are not horizontal.

[FredT]

Often in submerged hardware design it's advantagous to use small concentrated weights at extreme distances from the center of buoyancy to tweak trim in order to keep the overall buoyancy correct.

My only question is why use ankle weights for a permanent trim fix for hard sole dry boots? If a small long radius wieght actually is the best way to go heavy sheet lead insoles are more streamlined, requre less overall weight, and do not have ANY snag hazard. Fabrication is easy and cheap requiring a bit of roofing lead flashing and a pair of snips or a sharp blade. Lead is roughly .4 pounds per cubic inch making volume calculations quite easy too.

FT