Diving Doubles?

[Cheetah223]

I swear I saw a post on this at one point, but as usual, the search function doesn't return much of anything for me.

Anyway, I'm curious about diving doubles. Obviously for penetrations and such people use doubles, but there seems to be a gap somewhere, at least as far as I see. Double tanks don't seem to me like it's one of those pieces of equipment you just pick up and figure out like a spool or new camera, but where do you actually get introduced to diving doubles? Do you get your first experience with it in cave/wreck penetration or deep diving classes? I obviously don't know what certifications every diver out there carries, but there seems to be at least a decent number of "standard" rec divers toting doubles, who appear to have no tec training.

I don't plan on jumping into them yet, I've got plenty to work on before that, but I see no harm in learning about something, even if you have no plans to partake in it in the near future. What course (if any) introduces you to diving doubles, isolation manifolds, etc?

[TSandM]

Well, I'm taking a "doubles mini" from 5thD-X in June. It's a one day, two dive course specifically to introduce a diver to diving doubles. It's the only one of its kind that I know about.

I think a lot of people (myself included) start learning about doubles by talking to people who dive them and asking lots of questions, and by reading. Then you hook up with somebody who can help you set them up and start playing with them, as I'm doing Friday with rjack. Then you take some kind of introductory tech class, whether that's Fundies in doubles, NAUI Intro to Tech, or a basic technical diving class from some other agency.

From my naive perspective, it appears that the further you get into this stuff, the more dependent on mentors you become. The classes are intense and expensive and frequently not locally available, and all the rest depends on finding some folks to offer guidance.

Oh, and of course, you have to have some REASON to move into doubles. I'm doing it because I want to take cave training. Others do it because they are moving into diving deep wrecks or other decompression diving. It's an expensive and complicated (not to mention heavy) step to take unless there's a good reason to do it.

[Mark Vlahos]

My first experience in doubles was during my Decompression Procedures and Advanced Nitrox class. This was with an instructor, and I had somthing more than 100 dives total.

Some divers can dive doubles sooner, some would be well advised to wait longer, it all depends on lots of different factors.

I have spoken with a few divers about their transition to doubles, some would call this mentoring, some would simply say it was an enjoyable and informative conversation. I have been in the water with one specific diver for his first time in doubles, and then with that same diver for his 4th and 5th doubles dive.

Doubles introduce LOTS of new things. Double regulators, the manifold, added bulk and weight, balance and trim issues, possibly the first use of a back plate, the list goes on and on.

There are divers who have made the transition without specific instruction or mentoring, but I would guess it is harder.

Best of luck in your quest,

Mark Vlahos

[Cheetah223]

That's kind of what I was seeing. I looked at taking PADI's tech intro from Deep Blue on Utila if I get a trip together, but I think even just the intro class is a bit ahead of my experience at this time. From all I could gather, a lot of people just picked up doubles and did figure it out on their own, be it through reading, an experienced partner, or whatever else. I like the idea of going deeper for wrecks and stuff, but again - way out of my league at this point. I kind of figured taking a class that will teach you deco procedures would teach you about the gear needed for it.

I don't think I'm ready to pick up anything like wreck penetration, deep diving, or caves. I do think I'll be plenty ready to learn another piece of equipment before I'm ready to start penetrating wrecks though, so maybe I can try to figure out the doubles and get comfortable diving them before I get into the more intense training for overheads. You can always surface with extra gas and use it on a later dive. Kind of a waste to dive doubles and stay in NDL, as you'll certainly load nitrogen before you drain your tanks, but it's a way to learn the equipment. If nothing else it's an outlet for any money that might otherwise go to something important, like the phone bill! ;)

Mark, you posted while I was typing heh, what agency was the advanced nitrox & deco through? I was kind of looking for something more along those lines, but can't find anything locally..

[Mark Vlahos]

The large quantity of gas available with some double cylinders can actually get you into lots of trouble, and is one of the things that an instructor or good mentor can help you with. For me, my double 130's are good for about 3 dives with a buddy who has a similar air consumption rate, if that buddy is using a standard AL80.

Mark Vlahos

[Cheetah223]

Yeah, I've got a loose understanding of trimix and nitrox, plus deco gasses, but I can't imagine anyone would actually have doubles full of a deco gas..I'm hoping to take my nitrox this summer, and I plan to buy an analyzer kit shortly after. The more I learn, the more gear I want :P haha. Especially now that I know trimix mixes can be hypoxic above certain depths, I've started liking the idea of analyzing my own gas, no matter what I'm asking to have it filled as, clean air, nitrox or otherwise...

[PerroneFord]

This is a very interesting subject to me. I picked up doubles around dive 10. Yes 10. I took a nitrox class, and was curious about diving double tanks. My instructor put me in an old set of 72s with a straight-bar, and a single yoke connection.

His reasoning for this was that as he was trying to teach me, he wasn't getting the time he wanted with me in the water. My consumption early in the dive was very high, and it was taking me a while to settle down. So for me, the added gas in the tanks was just enough.

I got to try a set of LP95s in the pool with a large wing (DR Classic) and coming from my 27# wing, I felt like I was driving an old bus around! Very different feel. Shortly thereafter, I bought a set of used AL80 doubles from a friend, and bought a DR Classic wing, and started practicing in the pool. On my first OW dives with the doubles, I found that they gave me time to get past my early anxieties, and begin to relax underwater without burning through my tanks. It has been a thoroughly positive experience for me, but might not be for others. The costs were higher of course, as you need two of many things. The weight is a factor. The fills are more costly, and you tend to cut your number of dives in half since you're essentially getting 2 for 1. The buoyancy control in the water is harder, but they are more stable.

I did some single tank diving this month, and was surprised at how strange it felt. I could roll easily side to side and really had to focus to NOT do that when it wasn't intended. I was much faster in the water, and could really glide.

I think after this summer, I'll go back to single tank diving for a while. Finish up that regulator set so I don't have to swap components with my doubles regs.

So there are benefits to both setups, and getting into doubles doesn't have to be hard or strange. Just be prepared for it to feel very "different" for a while.

[grazie42]

My OW instructor used doubles in class and did decodives when my LDS made went on trips. I didn´t really think about it until I saw a diver on a liveaboard who dove "independents" (I know) and who seemed to be more "in the zone" than the DM on the boat. I did a few dives with him and asked a lot of questions (propably more than a few stupid ones) and he was nice enough to answer them and a few I hadn´t thought about.

When I got back home I booked some entry-level tech courses, took those (in borrowed doubles), bought my own doubles (from my OW instructor), dived all I could, took some more courses and dived even more...

Doubles are starting to become very common here in a way they weren´t when I started on "the path"...There´s almost always a few people with doubles on the rec-boats these days, doing recreational dives...I think the "tech label" has dropped from all the "good" eqiupment and people feel ok using "the best gear for the job", instead of thinking about whether it´s tech or rec...

If you´re interested in getting used to them, talk to someone who dives doubles, I´m sure they´ll be happy to talk and help you...for me it´s about "paying it forward"...

[TSandM]

for me it´s about "paying it forward"...

That's one of the wonderful things about diving . . . It seems to be full of people who feel that way!

[Mark Vlahos]

Mark, you posted while I was typing heh, what agency was the advanced nitrox & deco through? I was kind of looking for something more along those lines, but can't find anything locally..
Sorry, the board has been sluggish today, I hope this post makes it.

I have Basic Nitrox, Advanced Nitrox, Decompression Procedures, all with TDI.

I have Cavern through Full Cave with both TDI and NACD.

My basic open water and advanced open water are with PADI.

Mark Vlahos

[Walter]

Double tanks don't seem to me like it's one of those pieces of equipment you just pick up and figure out like a spool or new camera....

Why not? There's really not that much difference between diving doubles and diving a single tank, except the weight is more evenly distributed across your back.

[rsdancey]

I decided to transition to doubles when I decided to follow GUE training towards technical diving. I bought a set of AL80 doubles (I've since acquired a set of LP95s that I use for "everyday diving" and a set of HP120s that I have not got wet yet) and all the other required hardware, and set the whole rig up in an afternoon.

I did 5 dives on my doubles "on my own", then took the DIR-F class. It was easy to find all the information you need to have to rig the gear, configure the regulators and hoses, etc. with a minimal amount of internet research. DIR-F clarified a number of issues, and pointed out areas that I need lots of work on (bouyancy, trim & procedures), but that's just a function of time in water and practice. There's no secret "voodo" to basic doubles diving.

Manifolded, double regulator doubles add additional redundancy to your diving - but to maximize that redundancy, you need to learn a new set of procedures (the valve drill). The drill itself is pretty straightforward, but there are a lot of tricks & tips you'll want to learn from a qualified instructor to help you actually perform the drill - especially if you're diving in a drysuit.

You'll also have a lot of gas available. For the first time, I had enough gas to exceed NDL. Pay attention to your dive plan and don't exceed your limits. There's no reason to "accidentally" go into mandatory deco - doubles don't cause that problem, inattentive divers do. (My wife, who apparently has lungs the size of cherries, could easily put herself into mandatory deco with an AL80, even at depths as shallow as 80fsw....)

One caution: They're heavy. I'm in the gym regularly now to protect my back because of the weight of the whole rig; I need to add strength and conditioning. Just standing up from a park bench or truck trailer for the first time carrying the tanks will be shock - and that's assuming you've got your backplate setup correctly to carry the load. This is by far not a show-stopper; people carry heavy stuff around all the time. But unless you're used to it, it can be surprising. There are attendant issues, like standing up in surf, and climbing up and down beaches that become very challenging with all that weight on your back. Take it slow, pay attention to your footing, and don't overheat yourself. If the load is too heavy, ask for help. Once you're in the water, the weight vanishes, and you're "of the seas" in a whole new way!

Ryan

[lakewinni]

Regarding the expense of doubles. They really aren't much more expensive depending on what you already have. If you have two alum80s then they are perfect to double up. You can get a set of bands for $100 and you can also get a good sea elite manifold for $170. What could be more expensive is the bp&w and second first stage. Also if you go to diveriteexpress there is a very good article on how to set up doubles.

[super opus]

my frist doubles was with a intrecter on his free time it was a beach dive and steal 80s after that i was hooked havent been in singles sence now i have doubles hp steal 100s i set up my doubles with alot of help just to learn how to do it but i was in doubles around 50 dives
but still its alot im only 150 with all my gear on coming out of water feels it about the same wight as me haha

[Adobo]

Some people told me that switching to doubles would be like starting all over again.

For me, the experience wasn't quite that bad. Consider the following:
- I was already familiar (not necessarily proficient) with the basic concepts such as bouyancy, trim, propulsion techniques and so on.
- I was already familiar with diving a backplate and wing system.
- I already had a support network of divers that were familiar with what I was trying to accomplish and could give me pointers along the way.
- I was quite familiar with scubagear.

I took the "mini" that TSandM was referring to so that my first dives with doubles would be under the watchful eye of an instructor. Also, I knew that while the "minis" are informal, the content and knowledge passed on from someone who has considerable experience in both diving doubles and teaching divers is well worth the expense.

All these things together have made the experience quite uneventful so far (only 6 dives with the doubles). I suspect that if you go out and dive a bunch before moving to doubles, you will find that most of the things I listed will be true for you as well.

One thing to keep in mind that might help you with your progression to doubles (or any other progression you might have in diving) is to be mindful of equipment that you can upgrade as you progress. Specifically, backplate and wing systems are typically well suited for doubles. If you start out with the garden variety BCD, you might wind up changing gear to accommodate doubles. Whereas if you go with BP/W system, you will be adding incrementally as opposed to changing out gear altogether and having to learn a new system.


I swear I saw a post on this at one point, but as usual, the search function doesn't return much of anything for me.

Anyway, I'm curious about diving doubles. Obviously for penetrations and such people use doubles, but there seems to be a gap somewhere, at least as far as I see. Double tanks don't seem to me like it's one of those pieces of equipment you just pick up and figure out like a spool or new camera, but where do you actually get introduced to diving doubles? Do you get your first experience with it in cave/wreck penetration or deep diving classes? I obviously don't know what certifications every diver out there carries, but there seems to be at least a decent number of "standard" rec divers toting doubles, who appear to have no tec training.

I don't plan on jumping into them yet, I've got plenty to work on before that, but I see no harm in learning about something, even if you have no plans to partake in it in the near future. What course (if any) introduces you to diving doubles, isolation manifolds, etc?

[David P]

Well I just picked up my set of doubles today, jumped in the ocean and figured them out. Today was my 51st dive, I bolted together a set of 120's (no real need for that much air, but I'm 6'4 so I went for the tall boys) They are heavy moving around by hand but walking across the parking lot getting onto the boat didn't seem much different from a single (along with being tall I'm pretty damn big at about 280lbs) we did a live boat bail out at the oil rigs today in some killer current. Big splash and kick like hell to get into the protection of the rig. After a minute of catching our breathes we decended. I made sure I went a little slower than normal as I had so much extra weight on my back. The plan was to stop @ 50 feet and double check everything. As I was descending into the blackness (I gotta get an HID) I finally relaxed, exhaled a big ol breath (big lungs with a 52" chest makes for alot of bouyancy!) and started plumeting! Squirt a bit of air into the bc and drysuit to offset the squeeze and I hovered beautifully at 52'! Hoo Raa! Played around a bit, was amazed that I'm still feet heavy with doubles and no weight belt. Went down to 110 feet and started my way back up. I felt much more stable in the doubles, and was amazed that I actually liked the 7' hose. I tried the long hose when I first started diving and didn't like being all wound up so I returned the hose after one dive. Now it feels much more streemlined as it doesn't stick out past my shoulder and I don't feel it bounce in the current. The only downfall to the doubles during the dive was the resistance while kicking hard trying to grab the stupid tow line! To be honest everyone was out of breath even the skinny little guy in a wetsuit and aluminum 80 so maybe it was just the *** kicker current... oh yeah after we got back to port, after a long morning of diving I sat down, sholdered my rig and tried to stand up... "Hey, where'd all this weight come from? I should took up miniture golf!" The crew all laughed. :)

[PerroneFord]

Played around a bit, was amazed that I'm still feet heavy with doubles and no weight belt.


Two thoughts.

1. Maybe you don't need those "tall tanks" after all.
2. Maybe you could adjust your wing down a bit or add a small weight to the top bolt of the doubles to make you a bit more head-heavy.

[TheRedHead]

I find that everything associated with technical diving at least twice as expensive as rec diving. Two good DIN regulators, doubles wing, manifold, bands, deco bottles, o2 cleaned reg, stage straps, bolt snaps, stage bands, and on and on. It's worth it. though. :)

[Jorbar1551]

Just buy a simple manifold like the sea elite. Buy bands and an extra set of regs then go diving in your pool a couple times. Get the feel for the extra weight, and the balance of the tanks on your back. Once you are ready to do it for real, do a nice and easy shore dive

[Cheetah223]

Thanks for all the input. Definitely heard a few answers I wasn't quite expecting, but why would I ask if I thought I knew enough to expect all the answers, right?

It's going to be a while before I actually dive doubles for sure. Money isn't free, and as I'm just graduating and trying to get on my feet in the "real world" it surely isn't at a premium. Unfortunately I recognize there are more important things than scuba gear right now haha.

[PerroneFord]

I find that everything associated with technical diving at least twice as expensive as rec diving. Two good DIN regulators, doubles wing, manifold, bands, deco bottles, o2 cleaned reg, stage straps, bolt snaps, stage bands, and on and on. It's worth it. though. :)


While this is true in some special cases, it has been the opposite for me in a lot of cases, including BC, computer, regs, and some other gear.

My BP/W was cheaper than my old recreational BC
My DR Reg setup was less than my old Oceaninc. (Priced a titanium reg lately?)
My BT is cheaper than MANY recreational computers.
How much are those spare airs?
Etc...

What I have found is that recreational diving purchases often tend to be dead end solutions meaning they have no purpose going forward in diving, and are thusly VERY expensive. Most true tech gear can be used for everything from a 40ft reef dive to a 400ft decompressions dive, or a cave dive. If I can buy a piece of gear once, and have it work for 20 more years of diving, that's not bad.

However, sometimes things like scooters, are just expensive no matter HOW you look at it!

[TheRedHead]

While this is true in some special cases, it has been the opposite for me in a lot of cases, including BC, computer, regs, and some other gear.


rec diving = 1 regulator
tech diving = at least 3 regulators.

For me, thats 2 Apeks plus 1 Zeagle Envoy (for the deco bottole) and over $1500 just in regs. For deep diving, you need very good regulators.

I've not heard the argument before that technical diving can be done inexpensively. But I agree that much of the equipment that the rec diver has already in invested in will not be suitable for tech diving.

[PerroneFord]

rec diving = 1 regulator
tech diving = at least 3 regulators.

For me, thats 2 Apeks plus 1 Zeagle Envoy (for the deco bottole) and over $1500 just in regs. For deep diving, you need very good regulators.

I've not heard the argument before that technical diving can be done inexpensively. But I agree that much of the equipment that the rec diver has already in invested in will not be suitable for tech diving.


Well, I disagree that technical diving requires 3 regulators, but if that's how you define it, then I'll buy that. Note that your first 2 cave classes don't even require doubles.

Atomic T1/T2 are ~$1400. Atomic B1 si ~$600. I didn't spend $600 for the PAIR of my tech regs. Now if you want two ATX200s or SPMk25/S600s, then things are going to get pricey in a hurry. :)

By the way, how do you like that Envoy? I debated a long time about getting that reg. Sometimes, I wonder if I should have. Maybe I'll get one for my singles setup.

[AquaHump]

My first experience in doubles was during my Decompression Procedures and Advanced Nitrox class.




My instructor would not pass me threw thos classes unless I had twins set up his way. I am very thankful for him. He is a great instructor and became a good friend.

[TheRedHead]

Well, I disagree that technical diving requires 3 regulators, but if that's how you define it, then I'll buy that. Note that your first 2 cave classes don't even require doubles.

Technical diving with doubles would require 3 regs: 2 for the doubles and 1 for the deco bottle. You can also do Adv. Nitrox/Deco Procedures on a single tank, but few people want to.


Atomic T1/T2 are ~$1400. Atomic B1 si ~$600. I didn't spend $600 for the PAIR of my tech regs. Now if you want two ATX200s or SPMk25/S600s, then things are going to get pricey in a hurry. :)

You should buy the best regs that you can afford. I have 1 ATX 200, and I'm thinking about another for the left post too.


By the way, how do you like that Envoy? I debated a long time about getting that reg. Sometimes, I wonder if I should have. Maybe I'll get one for my singles setup.

I used it exclusively for a year and liked it. It's a bit damp inverted and doesn't breathe as easily at depth as the Apeks, but a very nice regulator for the price. I had it 02 cleaned and use it for my deco reg.

[Puffer Fish]

Technical diving with doubles would require 3 regs: 2 for the doubles and 1 for the deco bottle. You can also do Adv. Nitrox/Deco Procedures on a single tank, but few people want to.



You should buy the best regs that you can afford. I have 1 ATX 200, and I'm thinking about another for the left post too.



I used it exclusively for a year and liked it. It's a bit damp inverted and doesn't breathe as easily at depth as the Apeks, but a very nice regulator for the price. I had it 02 cleaned and use it for my deco reg.


You are such a gear head, Red - now you just need a giant pile of tanks, and you will be set. (and a new computer, and some other stuff)

Tech diving almost always costs more, a lot more. But then you tend to dive more, and hopefully, you are doing something you love.

[TheRedHead]

Puff, where there are tanks, there are manifolds and bands! :)

I'm diving double AL80s right now, but I have not forgotten the FX-72s. That's my next planned purchase.

[Cheetah223]

I have to admit that the price of a bp/w scares me away a bit. Compared to the jacket BC I'm looking at (Kind of debating between Oceanic Chute and Probe) a bp/w is a couple hundred dollars more expensive. They can probably be had considerably cheaper than I'm finding them, but websites carrying them are much harder to find than sites carrying rec BCs.

The other thing on my mind is that I don't know of anyone around here who dives a bp/w, so I have no way to try one out and see if I like it. That could be an expensive test run if I decide I hate them..

[TheRedHead]

Cheetah, you need a BP/W or something like a Transpac to dive doubles. You can find used plates pretty cheap on ebay. The basic harness is very inexpensive. The major expense will be the wing. If you can't afford one, you can be patient and pick up a plate and wing on ebay.

[Cheetah223]

Duh! I can't believe I didn't even think of ebay for my BC, even though I'm constantly watching it for every other piece of gear imaginable. One of the things I couldn't help but notice is that everyone seems to be after Halcyon's 27# wing, but on Halcyon's site they don't exist. I know 27# almost certainly wouldn't be enough lift for me (diving a single tank), but the same goes for a 36# - I can't find those anywhere on their site either.

To go from singles to doubles, all you have to do is bolt on bands and get a wing that has enough lift though? I definitely like the modularity (There's a word for you..) of a bp/w over a jacket BC. Do you have any websites that have OMS or Halcyon (or any other company who makes bp/w's) gear for sale? I almost can't find prices, much less compare shops for a better price..

[PerroneFord]

I guarantee, if you do a search for "bp/w" you will have more hits than you can read in a month.

The BP/W is very modular. Unlike a normal BC, the plate is metal (you can give it to your grandkids and it'll still work like new), the webbing is $1 a foot and you need 12-14ft, and the only real expense is the wing, which you switch out depending on what tanks you're using. Two screws, and the wing is off. You don't even have to readjust the harness sizing to change wings. I go from my single to my double tanks in about 2 minutes.

Why won't 27# be enough lift for you? And I can't IMAGINE a 36# wing not being enough. Are you carrying bricks in your pockets? Assuming your rig is balanced, you'll be neutral at 10ft when your tank is near empty. So the only thing making you negative as you dive is wetsuit crush (this is mitigated with a drysuit) and the weight of the gas in your tanks, which shouldn't be more than 4-10 pounds depending on what tank(s) you're using. So given that, unless you start carring 3-4 tanks on your dives, 27-36 pounds is CERTAINLY more than enough.

Someone REALLY needs to make a sticky of the companies doing BP/Ws as well as a comparison grid.

Many of us here tend to recommend products by DeepSeaSupply or Oxycheq because the owners participate on this board and they have great products. Golem Gear is another company that makes a very good BP/W at a fair price and the owner participates here. Dive Rite, OMS, and Halcyon also make good BP/W systems. There are others but these seem to be the most popular, and with good reason.

If you intend to dive doubles at some point, leave the jacket BC's alone. They just won't do the job or make it FAR harder to do the same job.




Duh! I can't believe I didn't even think of ebay for my BC, even though I'm constantly watching it for every other piece of gear imaginable. One of the things I couldn't help but notice is that everyone seems to be after Halcyon's 27# wing, but on Halcyon's site they don't exist. I know 27# almost certainly wouldn't be enough lift for me (diving a single tank), but the same goes for a 36# - I can't find those anywhere on their site either.

To go from singles to doubles, all you have to do is bolt on bands and get a wing that has enough lift though? I definitely like the modularity (There's a word for you..) of a bp/w over a jacket BC. Do you have any websites that have OMS or Halcyon (or any other company who makes bp/w's) gear for sale? I almost can't find prices, much less compare shops for a better price..

[Cheetah223]

Whoops, I thought you were misunderstanding me, but I reread my post and I completely worded that wrong haha. I meant the same goes for a 36# wing as in I can't find them on Halcyon's website, not that it wouldn't be enough lift for me. Sorry about that.

From reading everything I could find on determining wing size and bouyancy required, 27 seemed to be cutting it close for me, if even having enough to "cut it close" and not just be too little. Cold, fresh water, 7mm wetsuit and AL80. I didn't do any calculations, but going off the endless examples and "picture this"s that have already been posted, I got a pretty clear impression that 27# wouldn't quite be enough to dive locally.

As for the companies who make them, I've seen websites for just about all you listed, but many of them don't have prices. I was asking more for stores online that carry their products so I can see prices and get an idea of what I'm going to end up spending.

[Mark Vlahos]

Deep Sea Supply complete single tank rig with Hogarthian harness (http://www.deepseasupply.com/page12.html) $445.

What kind of standard BC are you looking at? Would that BC be a good choice for doubles, or would you still need the plate and wing? Remember, when switching from singles to doubles with a backplate you may only need to change the wing.

Mark Vlahos

[PerroneFord]

LOL! Ok, simple misunderstanding.

Yep, if you're diving a 7mm wet, 27 might cut it close.

So try this:

http://www.fifthd.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_11

http://www.deepseasupply.com/page12.html (Hog Harness)
http://www.deepseasupply.com/page21.html (Torus 35)

http://www.oxycheq.com/Wings-Razor.html

http://www.golemgear.com/pc-165-2-golem-35-lbs-ss-combo.aspx


That should put you in the ballpark


Whoops, I thought you were misunderstanding me, but I reread my post and I completely worded that wrong haha. I meant the same goes for a 36# wing as in I can't find them on Halcyon's website, not that it wouldn't be enough lift for me. Sorry about that.

From reading everything I could find on determining wing size and bouyancy required, 27 seemed to be cutting it close for me, if even having enough to "cut it close" and not just be too little. Cold, fresh water, 7mm wetsuit and AL80. I didn't do any calculations, but going off the endless examples and "picture this"s that have already been posted, I got a pretty clear impression that 27# wouldn't quite be enough to dive locally.

As for the companies who make them, I've seen websites for just about all you listed, but many of them don't have prices. I was asking more for stores online that carry their products so I can see prices and get an idea of what I'm going to end up spending.

[cool_hardware52]

Duh! I can't believe I didn't even think of ebay for my BC, even though I'm constantly watching it for every other piece of gear imaginable. One of the things I couldn't help but notice is that everyone seems to be after Halcyon's 27# wing, but on Halcyon's site they don't exist. I know 27# almost certainly wouldn't be enough lift for me (diving a single tank), but the same goes for a 36# - I can't find those anywhere on their site either.


Cheetah,

27 lbs might not be enough lift for you. I see you live in Montana. Where do you dive?

Any BC neededs to do things; Float your rig at the surface without you in it, and compensate for the loss, or potential loss of buoyancy of your exposure suit.

You can pretty accurately estimate the weight of your rig. The buoyancy of the tanks you are using can be found many places on the web, and the weight of the Backplate, regs, canister light etc. + any addition ballast you might attach to the rig are either known values or can be estimated fairly closely. Just add up all the weights.

Here's a quick example. HP 100 full -10, SS Backplate -5, Harness -1, Regs -2, Can light -3, total -21 lbs.

Now for the exposure suit. For a wetsuit, rollit up, throw it in the pool, add weight until it just sinks. For a big guy in a full 7 mil suit, + maybe a jacket or vest, it can require 25-28 lbs, amybe more. For a small fit person in a 5 mil, much less.

For a drysuit I like the diver to put on their undergarment and suit and get in the pool, vent all the gas you can. Now add lead until the diver is neutral. This weight represents the max buoyancy the diver could loose in the event of a total flood, unlikely, but still worth knowing.

For cold water single tank diving it is almost never the weight of the rig that determines the required minimum lift, it's the exposure suit. There's a reason wings get bigger the further you get from the equator.


To go from singles to doubles, all you have to do is bolt on bands and get a wing that has enough lift though? I definitely like the modularity (There's a word for you..) of a bp/w over a jacket BC. Do you have any websites that have OMS or Halcyon (or any other company who makes bp/w's) gear for sale? I almost can't find prices, much less compare shops for a better price..

When you move to doubles you keep the backplate, and harness. What changes is the wing. A doubles wing isn't just higher lift than a singles wing, it's a different shape, to accomodate the wider doubles tanks. Calculating the necessary lift for doubles is basically the same, but you need also consider the greater weight of gas you can potentially consume.

To set up tanks as doubles you need a manifold, and compatible bands. The move to doubles is not trivial. More regs, bands, manifolds, tanks, new wing, more training.


Good luck,



Tobin

[Cheetah223]

Thanks guys!

Mark: I'm looking at the Oceanic Chute and the Oceanic Probe. I'm not sure about the Chute because Oceanic doesn't have it on their site anymore, just checked it out in my LDS and I kind of like it, probably going to dive my AOW with it and see how it feels. Anyway, on Oceanic's site there's a double tank bracket available for about $120 in the accessories when you're looking at the Probe, as seen here. (http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/p_bcs_probelx.html)

I'll have to dig around and see if the Chute can take the same bracket or not. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe one of the local instructors is diving a BP/W so I can ask if they'll let me try it out. From what I've read and seen, I think I'd rather have a BP/W, but $500 isn't exactly casual money to me, so I want to be sure before I buy one, y'know?

[Cheetah223]

Tobin, you posted while I was typing (doing homework, it took me a few minutes to type haha) I haven't taken any dives locally yet, I'm kind of holding off until I can get into my AOW and do the first couple under some supervision since I've never dove anywhere but Maui. The conditions are going to be just slightly different haha. I also want to take my altitude diving specialty so I know what's going on before I jump in and take a DCS hit because I planned for sea level.

I'm up near Glacier Park though, so I imagine I'll get into the park some, as well as Flathead Lake. I only know of a few actual dive sites around here where there's anything to see, and most of them are up in Glacier, so I can definitely see a few trips up there.

[cool_hardware52]

Thanks guys!

Mark: I'm looking at the Oceanic Chute and the Oceanic Probe. I'm not sure about the Chute because Oceanic doesn't have it on their site anymore, just checked it out in my LDS and I kind of like it, probably going to dive my AOW with it and see how it feels. Anyway, on Oceanic's site there's a double tank bracket available for about $120 in the accessories when you're looking at the Probe, as seen here. (http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/p_bcs_probelx.html)

I'll have to dig around and see if the Chute can take the same bracket or not. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe one of the local instructors is diving a BP/W so I can ask if they'll let me try it out. From what I've read and seen, I think I'd rather have a BP/W, but $500 isn't exactly casual money to me, so I want to be sure before I buy one, y'know?

Oceanic builds fine gear. Nice regs. Good stuff. I have a couple.

I don't know anybody diving doubles who isn't using a BP&W. If doubles are on your "to do" list my best advice is to get started with a BP&W.


Tobin

[BarryNL]

I swear I saw a post on this at one point, but as usual, the search function doesn't return much of anything for me.

Anyway, I'm curious about diving doubles. Obviously for penetrations and such people use doubles, but there seems to be a gap somewhere, at least as far as I see. Double tanks don't seem to me like it's one of those pieces of equipment you just pick up and figure out like a spool or new camera, but where do you actually get introduced to diving doubles? Do you get your first experience with it in cave/wreck penetration or deep diving classes? I obviously don't know what certifications every diver out there carries, but there seems to be at least a decent number of "standard" rec divers toting doubles, who appear to have no tec training.

I don't plan on jumping into them yet, I've got plenty to work on before that, but I see no harm in learning about something, even if you have no plans to partake in it in the near future. What course (if any) introduces you to diving doubles, isolation manifolds, etc?

Well, the PADI route is the DSAT Tec Diving course.

A far as working it out for yourself, there's no real reason not to buy a set of double 7s - this still gives you less gas than a single 15 litre but probably better balance. There's not real problem diving doubles, if anything it's easier and more stable than diving a single, plus you can probably forget needing a weight belt - although for this reason you should think about having redundant buoyancy.

The real reason to get training before going to double 10s or higher is that you can easily go into decompression long before you get low on air but then find you don't have enough to do the necessary deco stops, and possibly the skills to do deco stops properly. Again, provided you are always careful to stay out of deco there's not real reason to stay away from doubles; just make sure you have sufficient buoyancy in the case of a drysuit flood or BCD failure.

[PerroneFord]

I don't know anybody diving doubles who isn't using a BP&W. If doubles are on your "to do" list my best advice is to get started with a BP&W.


Tobin


Ditto. If you're going to dive doubles, don't waste time or money fooling with anything else. You'll just regret it on the long run.

[TheRedHead]

Thanks guys!

Mark: I'm looking at the Oceanic Chute and the Oceanic Probe. I'm not sure about the Chute because Oceanic doesn't have it on their site anymore, just checked it out in my LDS and I kind of like it, probably going to dive my AOW with it and see how it feels.

I think it would be the worst thing you could buy with the intention of diving doubles, but newbies have to learn, sometmes the hard way. ;)

[Mark Vlahos]

Mark: I'm looking at the Oceanic Chute and the Oceanic Probe. I'm not sure about the Chute because Oceanic doesn't have it on their site anymore, just checked it out in my LDS and I kind of like it, probably going to dive my AOW with it and see how it feels. Anyway, on Oceanic's site there's a double tank bracket available for about $120 in the accessories when you're looking at the Probe, as seen here. (http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/p_bcs_probelx.html)

I'll have to dig around and see if the Chute can take the same bracket or not. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe one of the local instructors is diving a BP/W so I can ask if they'll let me try it out. From what I've read and seen, I think I'd rather have a BP/W, but $500 isn't exactly casual money to me, so I want to be sure before I buy one, y'know?
There may be some divers, heck I will go so far as to say there must be some divers who like either of these BC's for doubles. I will say that I have yet to meet one of them.

Seriously, which would you rather do. Spend about $300 on one of those BC's and then later spend about $500 when you decide to get a BackPlate and Wing. Or would you rather just go straight for the Plate and Wing. If you start now with a single tank wing and then later get another wing that is appropriate for doubles you will spend somthing like $800 to $900. If you get the Oceanic now, I predict that when you do actually transition to doubles you will still spend $800 to $900 for a setup that will accomodate both singles and doubles, but you will have spent the initial $300 or more on the Oceanic BC that will sit in your closet.

I have a Seaquest Quickdraw BC and a Zeagle Ranger LTD in my closet that have not seen the water in years. Take my, and others, advice. Save your money and get the right gear the first time. If your local shop is advising you to dive doubles in either of the Oceanic BC's ask the sales person or owner how many times they have personally been in doubles with those BC's. Most if not all of us that are giving you advice to get a Back Plate and Wing HAVE personally been in doubles with the exact type of rig we are endorsing. Sure dive gear is expensive, but take this advice, you will end up spending LESS money in the long run if you buy the right thing the first time. When I bought each of the BC's that now hang in my closet I was told that they would accomodate doubles. I have never used either of them with doubles nor do I think it would be very much fun if I did.

My doubles rig is a Deep Sea Supply Kydex plate and an Abyss 55lb lift wing for fresh water. For salt water, I have not yet purchased but I intend to, a DSS Stainless Steel plate with the same wing. I have been diving the Kydex plate in salt water, but I would trim out better with a steel plate. Other brands of plates and wings also work fine, my choices were for personal preferences. Halcyon, DiveRite, OxyCheq, FredT, Hammerhead, Golem Gear, and many others that I just can't remember right now make good gear. The beauty of the BP/W is that you can mix different brands, choose what you like and make your own system.

I will say that I also strongly endorse the use of a simple one piece Hogarthian harness, and not somthing with padding and buckles. This is truly a case of "less is more." Resist temptation, do not spend money on a cushy padded harness, if you do you will most likely replace it with a one piece harness when you start diving doubles.

Mark Vlahos

[Cheetah223]

I definitely want a BP/W, but since I'm not sure I will get into diving doubles, I don't want to buy one and then figure out I don't like it. I guess I just don't want to commit that much money to something that I've never even seen in person, much less dove. I'm going to actively pursue trying to find someone who dives a BP/W so I can try it out before I buy any BC, but who knows how successful I'll be in that heh.

Anyone feel like taking a vaction to Montana lol?! Maybe I will just spring the money for one, but I'd really prefer not to without at least trying it first.

[Mark Vlahos]

I definitely want a BP/W, but since I'm not sure I will get into diving doubles, I don't want to buy one and then figure out I don't like it. I guess I just don't want to commit that much money to something that I've never even seen in person, much less dove. I'm going to actively pursue trying to find someone who dives a BP/W so I can try it out before I buy any BC, but who knows how successful I'll be in that heh.

Anyone feel like taking a vaction to Montana lol?! Maybe I will just spring the money for one, but I'd really prefer not to without at least trying it first.Threading a one piece harness can be confusing, but there are some good websites out there to explain it. If you also choose to switch to the long hose it can also be good to get help explaining that as well. Of course the long hose is not required for the plate, but it is quite common for doubles.

If price is a problem keep your eyes on ebay, but if you get one there you will still want to verify the way the harness is threaded. If it is from someone who did not like it, it may be because they had it threaded wrong. Be patient, ebay can be a money saver, especially since a back plate has no moving parts. If you get a wing on ebay it has a higher chance of being a dud, at the very least get a new inflator mechanism, they are cheap.

Mark Vlahos

[TheRedHead]

He could compromise with a Dive Rite Transpac which would allow him to use the wing later with a BP and harness. With weight pockets and other accessories, it's pretty much like a BC with an uncluttered front. Isn't that Oceanic a poodle jacket?

[PerroneFord]

It's a pretty poor compromise. It requires additional weight to sink due to the padding, it's bulky, and the Dive Rite wings aren't the best. I say this as someone who considered the Transpac, and as an owner of a DR Wing (Classic Wing).

Somehow I wish I could convey to the original poster how much better a BP/W was going to be, versus the other options. But as you said, sometimes newbies have to learn the hard way.

I guess he can unload on Ebay.





He could compromise with a Dive Rite Transpac which would allow him to use the wing later with a BP and harness. With weight pockets and other accessories, it's pretty much like a BC with an uncluttered front. Isn't that Oceanic a poodle jacket?

[TheRedHead]

It's a pretty poor compromise. It requires additional weight to sink due to the padding, it's bulky, and the Dive Rite wings aren't the best. I say this as someone who considered the Transpac, and as an owner of a DR Wing (Classic Wing).

Perhaps a pound or 2 additional weight? My buddy dives doubles in a Transpac. The Venture wing is a nice little singles wing and the RecWing can work for both doubles and singles, albeit not the best for either. Isn't your wing something like 59 lbs of lift?

[BabyDuck]

i dunno, red. i have a friend in the transpac, and it's pretty padded. maybe he got some 'ultra cushy' version or something. i can see that thing taking some poundage to get it down.

cheetah, plates are *great* for singles, too. there's really nothing in the whole set-up not to like, except perhaps lack of pockets, and there are pockets you can add to the waist strap, or you can glue some to your suit, or you can try x-shorts. this makes my bp/w have way *better* pockets than my bc did (cause it had !1! that was about big enough for a car key, and that's it!), and i can pick what kind and where.

[PerroneFord]

Perhaps a pound or 2 additional weight? My buddy dives doubles in a Transpac. The Venture wing is a nice little singles wing and the RecWing can work for both doubles and singles, albeit not the best for either. Isn't your wing something like 59 lbs of lift?

I say this will all due respect, but there isn't a DR wing other than the classic I'd own. There are at LEAST 4-5 better options in every wing size than DR wings, including my Classic. The Recwing is awful for both singles and doubles. Horeshoe wings are an idea who's time has past for the most part. At least in my opinion. For a small singles wing, theyr'e ok, but once you get over 30# of lift, a cicular wing is really preferable. And ESPECIALLY for doubles. The Venture is OK but not ideal.


Yes, my wing is 59 pounds of lift. It did a job for me, and it will be added to the "backup pile" in case one ALL of my other doubles wings break. The DR wings come with the wrong length inflator hoses and dump valve corrugated hoses instead of simple elbows. My pioneer 27# wing is fabulous. As are any of the donut single wings I've seen around that size.

Again, this may not be popular opinion, and I know a LOT of people who dive DR, including me. My shop is a DR dealer. Doesn't change the fact that there are better options out there. Thank goodness they have excellent customer service.

[PerroneFord]

i dunno, red. i have a friend in the transpac, and it's pretty padded. maybe he got some 'ultra cushy' version or something. i can see that thing taking some poundage to get it down.


My guess is a good 5-6 pounds. And there is no ultra-cushy version. They are all that way.[/QUOTE]

[Cheetah223]

So what's the major difference between Halcyon's Pioneer and Eclipse rigs? There's a pretty impressive price difference, is there anything worth the extra hundred bucks? Either way I'll go with the Pioneer, but I'm curious what's worth the extra cash.

Would any of you suggest against getting a Halcyon rig? I'm kind of leaning that way because that's what a couple friends dive, so that's what I have the most input on. If there's any reason to avoid them, I figure you're the group to ask.

[PerroneFord]

Two big differences.

The wings are contructed differently. On the pioneer there is one layer of material. Essentially, the material of the wing is sewn together airtight and RF welded at the seams. In the eclipse wing, there is an internal bladder that holds the air, and an outer fabric that provides punture and abrasion resistance. Much like a bicycle tire.

The other main difference is that the Eclipse comes with a single tank adapter. You want this. Trust me. It allows your wing and backplate to go on like it does in doubles, instead of being held on by just the cambands.

I bought the Pioneer 27. It's fine for my use, but I still got an single tank Adapter. It makes moving my backplate over to my doubles a breeze. And yes the difference between the Pioneer and the Eclipse is EASILY worth $100.

I would not have any qualms recommending the Halcyon system with ONE caveat. Be SURE if you order it, to get the PLASTIC inflator. Trust me on this. The only drawback is that they tend to be more expensive that some other good options.



So what's the major difference between Halcyon's Pioneer and Eclipse rigs? There's a pretty impressive price difference, is there anything worth the extra hundred bucks? Either way I'll go with the Pioneer, but I'm curious what's worth the extra cash.

Would any of you suggest against getting a Halcyon rig? I'm kind of leaning that way because that's what a couple friends dive, so that's what I have the most input on. If there's any reason to avoid them, I figure you're the group to ask.

[Cheetah223]

So the stainless inflator they talk so much good about, actually isn't any good? How much is an STA alone? The one on fifthd.com is $99 for just the STA, if that's the case then I'll definitely go with the Eclipse. From what you said though, the only differences are the wing in the two rigs, so later on I could buy a 27# Pioneer to save some money over another Eclipse, and it would all go together? I think I'm liking BP/W's more and more...

[PerroneFord]

So the stainless inflator they talk so much good about, actually isn't any good? How much is an STA alone? The one on fifthd.com is $99 for just the STA, if that's the case then I'll definitely go with the Eclipse. From what you said though, the only differences are the wing in the two rigs, so later on I could buy a 27# Pioneer to save some money over another Eclipse, and it would all go together? I think I'm liking BP/W's more and more...

You're starting to get the idea.

Is the stainless inflator any good? Well I *LOVE* mine. But they need to be maintained, and in saltwater they get surface rust. I bent the ear of Halcyon's N.American Sales Rep yesterday over this. They've discontinued the stainless inflators and gone to the generic plastic ones. They'll require far less maintenance, and be more reliable. Again, mine has never failed me.

Most of the STA's are about $80-120.

Why would you buy a Pioneer wing? The eclipse would be your single tank wing, then you could get a double tank wing. And you could buy one from anyone. I bought a Halcyon Pioneer 27 setup. I use it with a Dive Rite classic 59# doubles wing, I've used it with an Oxycheq 45# wing, and just ordered a Deep Sea Supply 45# wing. They change out with 2 wingnuts. No other modification required. Zero. This is only ONE of the beauties of the BP/W system.

The STA can be purchased in a light configuration, standard, and a weighted. So if you'd normally have a 15 pound weightbelt, you can get an 8# STA, and put just 7 pounds on your belt. If you use 5 pounds in the water, you can get a standard STA and use 3 pounds on your belt. Etc.

The padding in a traditional BC takes extra weight just to sink it. Since the BP/W has no padding, you'll take weight off your belt right away. Since the SS Backplate is about 5#, you'll take that much off your weightbelt. Get it?

[Cheetah223]

How about the STA then, say I get the weighted configuration, can I change that later to be light for diving in the tropics, or would I need to buy another STA all together?

Also, are there differences between one company's backplate/wing integration from another? For instance, could I put a Halcyon wing on an OMS backplate, or a DiveRite wing on a Deep Sea Supply plate? There's a pretty generic looking backplate on ebay for $60 Buy It Now, then there's a Halcyon backplate for $80 still taking bids. If I get the $60 plate, buy an Eclipse 40# wing alone, an STA, and a Hog harness, the harness can cost up to about $70 and cost the same as buying the rig all assembled. I forgot about the STA until I was typing this, thought I was going to save about $100 haha. Either way, the question of backplate vs. wing compatibility stands. Lastly, about how much does a Hog harness with all the hardware required cost? All I can find are harnesses with clips and disconnects, or just the webbing with no hardware, etc.

[cerich]

Thanks guys!

Mark: I'm looking at the Oceanic Chute and the Oceanic Probe. I'm not sure about the Chute because Oceanic doesn't have it on their site anymore, just checked it out in my LDS and I kind of like it, probably going to dive my AOW with it and see how it feels. Anyway, on Oceanic's site there's a double tank bracket available for about $120 in the accessories when you're looking at the Probe, as seen here. (http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/p_bcs_probelx.html)

I'll have to dig around and see if the Chute can take the same bracket or not. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe one of the local instructors is diving a BP/W so I can ask if they'll let me try it out. From what I've read and seen, I think I'd rather have a BP/W, but $500 isn't exactly casual money to me, so I want to be sure before I buy one, y'know?


I wear a BP/Wing with doubles. Do I need to spell this out????:huh:

[rongoodman]

The newer version of the Halcyon weighted STA is convertable. The weight just pops out and you attach the now unweighted STA. The Halcyon harness with all the hardware is about $65. It might be cheaper to buy the webbing and all the hardware pieces individually on the web.

[TheRedHead]

Cheetah, the idea thing would be an already-assembled, slightly-used BP and harness like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/OMS-Steel-Back-Plate-Harness-fits-Halcyon-Backplate_W0QQitemZ7244807636QQcategoryZ16053QQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem

[Cheetah223]

Cheetah, the idea thing would be an already-assembled, slightly-used BP and harness like this:

That's why I was wondering if you can use any wing wtih any backplate. I noticed the plates seem to have a few holes in different positions, and the wings seem to have no holes in the same spots from the little I've examined them, so I was curious if I could get a cheap generic plate and put any wing I wanted to on it, etc.

Just to clarify, right now I'm just trying to figure out what I can and learn all I can about BP/W's - you've all hammered it into my head a few times over that they come out on top when compared to a jacket or back inflate BC, so I'm just trying to learn what I can so I can make an educated decision on what to buy.

[TheRedHead]

I think you can use any wing with a Dive Rite BP. But I'm not sure about the others.

[cool_hardware52]

That's why I was wondering if you can use any wing wtih any backplate. I noticed the plates seem to have a few holes in different positions, and the wings seem to have no holes in the same spots from the little I've examined them, so I was curious if I could get a cheap generic plate and put any wing I wanted to on it, etc.

Just to clarify, right now I'm just trying to figure out what I can and learn all I can about BP/W's - you've all hammered it into my head a few times over that they come out on top when compared to a jacket or back inflate BC, so I'm just trying to learn what I can so I can make an educated decision on what to buy.

Cheetah,

The only thing "standard" about almost all backplates sold is that they will all have atleast one pair of holes in the center channel that are 11" center to center. Why? Because that's the spacing of the band bolts for securing doubles.

Some backplates will have camstrap slots in the center channel for securing a single tank, some will not. If you choose to directly mount a single tank to the plate without a single tank adapter (STA) you will need slots in the plate, and slots or windows in the center panel of the wing.

If you choose to use a STA virtually any wing and any plate will be compatible. Why? because a STA has bolts protruding at 11" centers.

If you'd like call me. 626-799-5078. I'm around the office today. (You might have to try more than once if I don't hear the phone.) I'd be happy to walk you through the basic assembly of a BP&W. It's really simple if you've you have your hands on the goods, and kinda confusing if you never seen it done.


Tobin

[Mark Vlahos]

That's why I was wondering if you can use any wing wtih any backplate. I noticed the plates seem to have a few holes in different positions, and the wings seem to have no holes in the same spots from the little I've examined them, so I was curious if I could get a cheap generic plate and put any wing I wanted to on it, etc.

Just to clarify, right now I'm just trying to figure out what I can and learn all I can about BP/W's - you've all hammered it into my head a few times over that they come out on top when compared to a jacket or back inflate BC, so I'm just trying to learn what I can so I can make an educated decision on what to buy.
You should be able to use any with any backplate so long as you are using a Single Tank Adapter with US standard 11" bolt spacing. The problem with mixing brands really only comes into play when you use the slots in the plate for holding the tank. Many STA's have their own slots for the soft tank bands. If the slots in the plate do not line up with the slots in the wing you could have problems. It is reasonable to assume that a plate and a wing from the same company will be made in such a way that everything fits together.

Almost every plate, every wing, and every STA will have the US standard 11" hole spacing.

If you work it from the tank to your back, it fits together like this.

The cylinder is held tight to the STA with "cam" bands, these are the soft webbing bands that you are accustomed to using with a regular BC. The STA has two bolts sticking out of it to bolt it to your backplate.

When you want to attach the STA to your plate you first put the bolts through the holes found on almost every wing made, then the bolts go through the holes in the plate. The end result of this sort of configuration is that the wing gets sandwiched between the STA and the plate. The plate has a channel or bend in it that provides room for the wing nuts to go on the end of the bolts from the STA. Tighten the wing nuts and everything is held in place and you go dive.

Where you can run into problems is if you do not use an STA, then you need to make sure that the slots in the plate itself line up with the slots in the wing since this is where you put the "cam" straps to hold the cylinder in place. Essentially you completely eliminate the STA and the wing is held in place by the same straps that hold the tank on. Some manufacturers have "built in" STA like devices, some of these work well, some are junk. Since you want to be fairly generic I would say you can plan on needing an STA, and with that configuration you should be comfortable mixing the brands between the wing, the plate, and even the STA. The worst thing that would happen if you got an STA but found that you did not need it was that you would have wasted a small amount on that extra piece, and you could sell it on eBay.

Remember, this entire thing only really comes into play when you dive single cylinders with a Back Plate and Wing. If you are diving doubles there is NO need for the STA, the cylinders bolt directly to the plate with the wing sandwiched between.

The OMS harness in the link the Red Head provided is not the worst on the market, but as I said before I like the one piece Hogarthian harness. The harness in the link is somewhere between the one piece and the cushy padded variety.

Mark Vlahos

[TheRedHead]

Yes, listen to Mark and Tobin regarding the STA. I could use my Dive Rite BP/W without an STA, but changing the wings for doubles would be a big PITA. All I have to do is loosen two wingnut bolts and slap a wing and plate onto a set of doubles. It is SO easy.

[TheRedHead]

The OMS harness in the link the Red Head provided is not the worst on the market, but as I said before I like the one piece Hogarthian harness. The harness in the link is somewhere between the one piece and the cushy padded variety.



The harness itself is cheap to replace and a SS backplate is worth more than the auction price. Everyone says that a harnness is easy to thread, but I did not find it so at all. Having one already threaded would have been a godsend to someone like me who had never even seen a harness before. And that's where I was when I started. It's still very difficult for me to work the straps through. I almost cried when my TDI instructor took my shoulders apart.

I have the Dive Rite deluxe with the chest strap. I like the chest strap because it stablizes the rig and prevents it shifting and pinching the puppies. :D

[PerroneFord]

Thank you all for explaining to the original poster why I told him to just get the STA and forget the rest! :) I didn't want to go the lengthy explanation.

So Cheetah223, if you get the STA, yes you can use any wing, with any backplate. I agree with Redhead, if you are going to do this, get a backplate that is already assembled. It makes life MUCH easier the first time around.

You've heard from Tobin (CoolHardware) who owns DSS and is a very active member of the board. Now you understand why I said he should be on your shortlist to buy from.

Getting the BP/W is going to avoid problems later on down the road you don't even KNOW about yet. Like where do I attach my *XXX*. Since the BP/W is basically 2" webbing, companies make knives, lights, pockets, etc. that all just slide onto 2" webbing. You don't have to worry about compatibility. What if I want to use a scooter? Already solved. Where does the knife go? Solved. Where do I connect my decompression bottles? Done. What about if I want a rebreather? Change wing, DONE.

The other nice thing is that since this stuff is all standardized, you could buy things off EBay for it and you KNOW they'll fit.

Someone mentioned the bands on doubles being 11". They are only that width because the BP is. The band width on doubles are easily changed with just 2 wrenches.


Best of luck on your purchase, and I hope we've answered your questions.

[jeckyll]

Cheetah:

If you want to see how to run the webbing, this should help

http://www.dir-diver.com/pics/backplate/harness.gif

A bunch of other good info about sizing there and also at http://www.baue.org/faq/backplate_sizing_inline_images.html

HTH :)

[Otto]

A bp/w set bup has more versatility than any bc I have ever seen and is all I ever dive singles or doubles. Will one of your friends with a bp/w set up let you try it in the pool? When looking at back plates I wouldn't get one with a slot for the band bolts if you think you will be getting large heavy steel tanks. I would also consider it a plus if the plate had more than one set of holes on 11" centers as this provides a little more flexibility when mountying the wing and tanks. Hammerhead Scuba has new back plates and single tank adapters at reasonable prices and there is nothing wrong with used if you find what you want. Dive safe.

[Cheetah223]

Awesome, thanks a million. I started a thread to ask about diving doubles and I think I learned more about BP/W's lol! Oh well, saves me from making another thread on it. Tha last question I can come up with (after thinking for a number of minutes trying to come up with more questions - what advantages are there to having an aluminum backplate over a stainless, or vice versa? Is it just weight at that point?

[Cheetah223]

Will one of your friends with a bp/w set up let you try it in the pool?

That's why I was so skeptical about getting a bp/w, I don't know anyone locally who dives them. I have a couple of friends who live in Canada and in Michigan who dive bp/w's, but that doesn't help a ton for trying it out unfortunately :banghead:

Jeckyll: Thanks for the links, it'll definitely help as I'm the kind of person who wants to rip everything apart and put it back together just so I know how it works and where it might fail, if the harnesses are as confusing as everyone makes them seem, having a guide will be priceless!

[cool_hardware52]

Awesome, thanks a million. I started a thread to ask about diving doubles and I think I learned more about BP/W's lol! Oh well, saves me from making another thread on it. Tha last question I can come up with (after thinking for a number of minutes trying to come up with more questions - what advantages are there to having an aluminum backplate over a stainless, or vice versa? Is it just weight at that point?

Yes it is basicaly weight. Some conditions like big heavy steel doubles in warm fresh water can leave the diver overweighted without any extra ballast. Switching to a lightweight plate helps.

One of the key advantages of a BP&W is weight distribution. Unlike a jacket BC which tends to concentrate the weight around your hips and all the buoyancy higher on your torso, a BP&W puts some of the weight up over your buoyant lungs. That's the major advantage trim wise.


Tobin

[cool_hardware52]

That's why I was so skeptical about getting a bp/w, I don't know anyone locally who dives them. I have a couple of friends who live in Canada and in Michigan who dive bp/w's, but that doesn't help a ton for trying it out unfortunately :banghead:

Jeckyll: Thanks for the links, it'll definitely help as I'm the kind of person who wants to rip everything apart and put it back together just so I know how it works and where it might fail, if the harnesses are as confusing as everyone makes them seem, having a guide will be priceless!

Cheetah,

Your doing your "due diligence" and I applaud you for it. OTOH, have you found a great number here who have tried a BP&W, hated it and rushed back to their jacket BC?


Tobin

[PerroneFord]

Jeckyll: Thanks for the links, it'll definitely help as I'm the kind of person who wants to rip everything apart and put it back together just so I know how it works and where it might fail, if the harnesses are as confusing as everyone makes them seem, having a guide will be priceless!

Having a guide is good. But honestly, a person familiar with a BP should be able to thread it with all hardware in 3-5 minutes. Adjustment the first time will take 15-30 minutes. Once it fits you, it FITS you. Minor adjustments after that take 5-10 minutes tops.

[TheRedHead]

Cheetah, I did it sight unseen and I'm a girl. :D

You'll be so glad if you do!

[Cheetah223]

Well it looks like it's on to saving now...Since I don't plan to start diving doubles for a while yet I'm going to go with a singles wing, probably a Halcyon 40# Eclipse. I'll be saving for quite a while either way, so I may just go for an entire Halcyon rig instead of buying the parts separately, but I think I've got plenty of time to decide before I'll have the money to spend anyway. Thanks a bunch for all your help everyone, I really appreciate it.

[PerroneFord]

Good luck to you man! And keep up updated on your diving! Even before you get the BP/W...

[evad]

Maybe this will help:



Backplate & Wing Special


Deluxe harness


Horgarthian harness Deluxe harness (Shown with optional Crotch strap)

Famous name harness and backplate Combo. We buy bulk to save you BIG money. This price is so low that the Manufacturer won’t let us use their name if we print the price here.

Here’s what you get:

Stanless steel (6lb.) or Aluminum Backplate
Your Choice of harness:
One piece Horgarthian harness
Deluxe harness with chest strap
Your Choice of wing:
Doubles Wing with 59 pounds of lift
Single/Double wing with 51 pounds of lift
Single Wing with 40 pounds of lift
"O" style Singles Wing with 30 pounds of lift


Only - $329.99!




Home | About NESS | Online Catalog | Used Equipment | Closeouts | Dive Schedules |
Classes | Rental Pricing | Mailing Lists | Directions | Scuba Links | Contact Us

Call The Professionals - 610-631-2288

[PerroneFord]

My opinion: Pass on that, stick with DSS, Oxycheq, or Halcyon. Notice it has no STA. So add $100 to the price.

[evad]

My opinion: Pass on that, stick with DSS, Oxycheq, or Halcyon. Notice it has no STA. So add $100 to the price.



It doesn't need a STA, the plate has slots for the bands. When he has more money, he can buy an Oxycheq STA for about $50.00 from COVCI.

[PerroneFord]

It doesn't need a STA, the plate has slots for the bands. When he has more money, he can buy an Oxycheq STA for about $50.00 from COVCI.

Ok.

[Cheetah223]

It seems like a good deal, but I tend to shy away from anything that refuses to tell me who manufactures it, regardless of if it's dive gear or if it's a gallon of milk. I would never be willing to spend more than about five dollars on something that says "Famous name. This price is so low that the Manufacturer won’t let us use their name if we print the price here." To me that says "you've never heard of the manufacturer, but they're quite famous in Haiti."

I think it may be worth calling them and seeing what information I can get from them, who knows...Maybe it is some extremely deep deal, even after buying an STA to bolt on to it. Without knowing exactly what I'm getting though, there's NO way I'd EVER pay that kind of money. Ever.

Looking around on their site though, they carry DiveRite, OMS, and Oxycheq, so maybe it's a deep deal on an OMS wing or something. Either way, I don't have the money now, so even if I did want it I couldn't buy it heh.

[PerroneFord]

Lett's cut the mystery for you. It's Dive Rite gear. And that's not a special sale. They've had the deal for as long as I've been on ScubaBoard.




It seems like a good deal, but I tend to shy away from anything that refuses to tell me who manufactures it, regardless of if it's dive gear or if it's a gallon of milk.

[evad]

It seems like a good deal, but I tend to shy away from anything that refuses to tell me who manufactures it, regardless of if it's dive gear or if it's a gallon of milk. I would never be willing to spend more than about five dollars on something that says "Famous name. This price is so low that the Manufacturer won’t let us use their name if we print the price here." To me that says "you've never heard of the manufacturer, but they're quite famous in Haiti."

I think it may be worth calling them and seeing what information I can get from them, who knows...Maybe it is some extremely deep deal, even after buying an STA to bolt on to it. Without knowing exactly what I'm getting though, there's NO way I'd EVER pay that kind of money. Ever.

Looking around on their site though, they carry DiveRite, OMS, and Oxycheq, so maybe it's a deep deal on an OMS wing or something. Either way, I don't have the money now, so even if I did want it I couldn't buy it heh.












Its DiveRite. The same stuff used by TheRedHead. You can pay almost that much for just the wing if you want.

[TheRedHead]

Cheetah, everyone in my Deco Procedures class is diving Dive Rite. These Halcyon guys are just DIR weenies. :D

[PerroneFord]

Cheetah, everyone in my Deco Procedures class is diving Dive Rite. These Halcyon guys are just DIR weenies. :D

LOL!!! Some DIR weenies actually dive in Dive Rite gear. But they have to take the silly plastic knob off the OPV, and shorten the corrugated hose, and substitute a normal elbow in place of the pull dump, and buy a proper length LP Inflator hose. But beyond that, the DR gear is usually ok.

[TheRedHead]

Yep, Peronne is right. Get the shorter inflator hose without the pull dump. :D

[Cave Diver]

LOL!!! Some DIR weenies actually dive in Dive Rite gear.
Did that.

But they have to take the silly plastic knob off the OPV,
Did that.


and shorten the corrugated hose,
Did that.


and substitute a normal elbow in place of the pull dump,
Did that.


and buy a proper length LP Inflator hose.
Did that.


But beyond that, the DR gear is usually ok.
Yep, it is. But I still like my H-wing better! :D

[Cheetah223]

Ahh man, now I have another question. Hahaha, sorry guys! Why do I see so much hostility to 'horseshoe' wings that don't have a constant bladder? Seems to me you'd be more likely to trap air in a donut shaped wing..

Looking at Diverite's site it looks like that deal (for a 40# wing) would have to be the Trek wing. Their site doesn't say a whole lot about it other than the typical promotional mumbo-jumbo...Would you guys advise to go for the cheaper package, or wait and get a Halcyon? What's good and what's bad about the DR wings, specifically the trek?

[PerroneFord]

Yep, it is. But I still like my H-wing better! :D

Yea, me too.

Buy Halcyon wing: Dive
Buy DSS wing: Dive
Buy Oxycheq wing: Take off OPV plastic thing. Dive
Buy DR: Perform minor surgery on wing, spend extra $70, Dive

[Cheetah223]

Good enough for me, I'm sold on Halcyon or DSS. I'm still kind of staring blankly wondering in my mind which to go with, mostly because my brain's fried from three solid days of homework, on the bright side - I managed to learn an unbelievable amount about bp/w's and I started and completed a semester of World History and can now graduate a week early :D

[PerroneFord]

Good enough for me, I'm sold on Halcyon or DSS. I'm still kind of staring blankly wondering in my mind which to go with, mostly because my brain's fried from three solid days of homework, on the bright side - I managed to learn an unbelievable amount about bp/w's and I started and completed a semester of World History and can now graduate a week early :D

You really can't go wrong with either one. The DSS backplate I like a bit better than my Halcyon. My Halcyon wing I liked better than DSS's stuff. Now that may change with the new donut singles wing from DSS, but I haven't seen one to compare. Yet. Harness material is a wash.

I'd compare these two on price and service and go from there. Tobin posts here every day pretty much. Halcyon rep is not here. Both are solid, and get the job done without having to *******ize anything.

[TheRedHead]

Good enough for me, I'm sold on Halcyon or DSS. I'm still kind of staring blankly wondering in my mind which to go with, mostly because my brain's fried from three solid days of homework, on the bright side - I managed to learn an unbelievable amount about bp/w's and I started and completed a semester of World History and can now graduate a week early :D

It's going to be Kool-Aid for you, buster. I can read the writing on the wall. :D

[PerroneFord]

LOL!!

Horseshoe shaped wings can trap air. Think about this. You're horizintal in the water, just like the book says you should be. You have air in the bladder of a horseshoe wing. How does air get from one side of the tank to the other? It goes across the top. So if you roll to your left, the air goes uphill to the right side, and vice versa. Problem. Assume you are slightly head down. Like you were looking down at something, or checking your weights, or your pocket, or something. Now the air won't travel side to side because it's stuck down on the prongs of the horseshoe. In order to get the air to move, you have to go slightly head up and roll. With a donut bladder, that air COULD just go around the bottom of the wing. Problem solved.

So there is a big push in the industry toward donut bladders right now. If you notice, most manufacturers try to make them in ovals so there is nice flow. Corners tend to trap air. They also create undue drag.

What's wrong with the Trek-Wing? Other than what we've already mentioned that the Dive Rite wings have in common.. nothing per se. It's just that there are other, better options out there now.

I look at it this way. Is it worth the $75-100 bucks to buy something you'll need to tweak and spend money on when you could have just waited a few weeks and gotten what you really wanted? For me, the answer was no. It's still no. Halcyon gear is too pricey for me in most cases. Dive Rite has some good stuff in their catalogs, unfortunately their wings aren't among them. DSS doen't make or sell any crap that I've seen thus far so it's a "safe" buy. Oxycheq for the most part is the same, though he rebrands a lot of stuff. Most people do that though, so it's not a knock against him.

I can't comment specifically on the Trek wing, but it looks far from ideal to me.


Ahh man, now I have another question. Hahaha, sorry guys! Why do I see so much hostility to 'horseshoe' wings that don't have a constant bladder? Seems to me you'd be more likely to trap air in a donut shaped wing..

Looking at Diverite's site it looks like that deal (for a 40# wing) would have to be the Trek wing. Their site doesn't say a whole lot about it other than the typical promotional mumbo-jumbo...Would you guys advise to go for the cheaper package, or wait and get a Halcyon? What's good and what's bad about the DR wings, specifically the trek?

[TheRedHead]

The Venture Wing is the wing for singles in the Dive Rite line. The RecWing traps air like Perrone described, much in the same way as a Zeagle.

[Cave Diver]

Ahh man, now I have another question. Hahaha, sorry guys! Why do I see so much hostility to 'horseshoe' wings that don't have a constant bladder? Seems to me you'd be more likely to trap air in a donut shaped wing..

Looking at Diverite's site it looks like that deal (for a 40# wing) would have to be the Trek wing. Their site doesn't say a whole lot about it other than the typical promotional mumbo-jumbo...Would you guys advise to go for the cheaper package, or wait and get a Halcyon? What's good and what's bad about the DR wings, specifically the trek?

Can't help with that one, all of my wings have been configured for doubles. No donuts for me.

I've owned a couple of DR wings as well as a Halcyon. It's been my experience that the H-wing trims out better than the DR wings. One way to check for yourself is assemble your gear, inflate the wing and see how it floats the tank. The closer it is to level by itself, the easier it wil be to trim out.

If you have the opportunity to try them out before you buy, do so.

Ditto on the Rec wing trapping air. Haven't experienced that problem with the DR Classic or the H-wing.

[PerroneFord]

Ditto on the Rec wing trapping air. Haven't experienced that problem with the DR Classic or the H-wing.

Man, what tanks are you using with the Classic? My AL80s trap air something AWFUL with the Classic. Not that I didn't know better. But it is a lesson in wing management every time I dive! :)

[Cheetah223]

Horseshoe shaped wings can trap air. Think about this. You're horizintal in the water, just like the book says you should be. You have air in the bladder of a horseshoe wing. How does air get from one side of the tank to the other?

That makes perfect sense, I was thinking of having air get trapped in the bottom...ah I don't know what I was thinking, it was wrong though :11doh: lol.

I'm one of those people who has "the best of everything" complex, so I'll probably end up saving longer to get the Halcyon rig. It's a blessing and a curse, for sure haha.

[Cave Diver]

Man, what tanks are you using with the Classic? My AL80s trap air something AWFUL with the Classic. Not that I didn't know better. But it is a lesson in wing management every time I dive! :)

Dual LP112's.

My Rec wings seemed to work better with 2xAL80's, but with my 112's the hoses "pinch" the top of them causing air trapping. I haven't had that problem with either the Classics or the H-wing, but something about the Halcyon shape seems to help it trim out better. FWIW, my Halcyon is an older style and has a slightly different shape than some of their newer ones.

I've learned a few lessons in wing management myself. ;)

[TSandM]

Just wanted to say that the "best" is not always the most expensive.

Customer service is worth a lot.

Take a good long look at the DSS equipment. It's worth your time.

[karstdvr]

A set of wings that always seem to get overlooked,but is probably is one of the best for durability and shape,is the SeaTec wing. I've used the same wing for over 10 years on my back mount,and it has proven to be very reliable,and has great trim.

I do like the Trek wing. I am still a fan of the Dive Rite Junior wing which isn't made anymore,but the Trek wing is much more durable. I use a set of sidemount 120s with this wing,and am very please with the job it does.

[PerroneFord]

Karstdvr,

You are only the second person I've EVER heard mention the Seatec wing. I've have never seen one for sale. Where do you get them?? He seemed to love his as well.

I've never had a Trek wing in the water. Just looked like it had a funny shape to me. What config are you in when you use it?

[karstdvr]

I use the Trek wing for sidemount,although I used to use the Jr wing with single tank or AL80 doubles

Lloyd Bailey used to sell Sea Tec

[Jason B]

LOL!!

Horseshoe shaped wings can trap air. Think about this. You're horizintal in the water, just like the book says you should be. You have air in the bladder of a horseshoe wing. How does air get from one side of the tank to the other? It goes across the top. So if you roll to your left, the air goes uphill to the right side, and vice versa. Problem. Assume you are slightly head down. Like you were looking down at something, or checking your weights, or your pocket, or something. Now the air won't travel side to side because it's stuck down on the prongs of the horseshoe. In order to get the air to move, you have to go slightly head up and roll. With a donut bladder, that air COULD just go around the bottom of the wing. Problem solved.
You sound like you are on a mission to convert everyone over to donut wings...
Here goes a comment Tobin made over on TDS.

"From a side to side gas transfer standpoint I'm saying exactly that, donut = horseshoe. To get gas to pass through the lower connection one need be distinctly head down."

Link the whole thread for those interested...
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15430

As for Dive Rite wings, they can be purchased without the pull dump feature (plain elbow) and a shorter corrugated hose.

[cool_hardware52]

You sound ike you are on a mission to convert everyone over to donut wings...
Here goes a comment Tobin made over on TDS.

"From a side to side gas transfer standpoint I'm saying exactly that, donut = horseshoe. To get gas to pass through the lower connection one need be distinctly head down."

Link the whole thread for those interested...
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15430

As for Dive Rite wings, they can be purchased without the pull dump feature (plain elbow) and a shorter corrugated hose.

Yes Jason, that's my position on donuts vs horseshoe wings.

If you picture the horizontal diver using any wing, the wing will typically be filled to 20-30% of capacity at depth during normal use. Where is this gas distributed? In a bubble along each side of the tank(s) Why? because this part of the wing is free to fold up along side the tank(s). The top arc of the wing is held down by the valves and regulators. The bottom arc of a donut wing is held down by the lower end of the tanks.

To shift gas from one side to the other you need to make either the top arc of the wing, or the bottom arc of the wing the highest point. You can only do this by rasing either your head or your butt.

Dry Suit divers will already have a need to raise their shoulder a bit to vent the suit, this motion will fill the top arc of the wing. Pure "butt first" ascents don't allow for venting the suit.

The major advantage of a well designed donut wing is that some of the required lift volume can be "hidden" at the base of the wing. This allows for a narrower overall profile.

It is the narrow profile that makes the most difference in performance.

A narrow profile wing will "wrap" the tank(s) less when filled 20-30% in noraml use. Less tank wrap means the gas along side the tank(s) is only just barely higher than the top arc of the wing. This means you only need raise your shoulders slightly to shift gas from side to side.

Anybody who has used a doubles wing with a Single tank can tell you tank wrap (taco) makes venting difficult. Narrow designed wings, horseshoe or donut, vent better due to less wrap.

Tobin

[PerroneFord]

I'm not on a mission. I'm relating MY experiences. I dive both and own both. If the horseshoe works better for you, or for someone else, have at it. I was aware of Tobin's comments. Maybe he's a better diver than me. I just find the donut wings easier to dive.

I am aware the DR wings can be purchased optionally with the elbow and with a shorter corrugated hose, but they don't come stock that way. Why, I don't know.




You sound like you are on a mission to convert everyone over to donut wings...
Here goes a comment Tobin made over on TDS.

"From a side to side gas transfer standpoint I'm saying exactly that, donut = horseshoe. To get gas to pass through the lower connection one need be distinctly head down."

Link the whole thread for those interested...
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15430

As for Dive Rite wings, they can be purchased without the pull dump feature (plain elbow) and a shorter corrugated hose.

[cool_hardware52]

I'm not on a mission. I'm relating MY experiences. I dive both and own both. If the horseshoe works better for you, or for someone else, have at it. I was aware of Tobin's comments. Maybe he's a better diver than me. I just find the donut wings easier to dive.


Out of curiosity what horseshoe / tank combos have you used?


Tobin

[PerroneFord]

DR Classic w/ LP95
DR Classic w AL80s
Oxy 45 w/ LP95s
Oxy 45 w/ AL80s
Oxy 45 w/LP72s

[cool_hardware52]

DR Classic w/ LP95
DR Classic w AL80s
Oxy 45 w/ LP95s
Oxy 45 w/ AL80s
Oxy 45 w/LP72s

Thanks Perrone

Have you used a "donut" doubles wing?

I ask because it appears that you have used horseshoes with doubles, and perhaps a donut with singles.

What always interests me is folks that have used both horseshoes and donuts with doubles, and folks that have used both narrow horseshoes and donuts for singles.

Unfortunately this is a pretty small group, given the DSS narrow horseshoe for singles are the only wings I know of that fit that description.

Much more commonly I find people who have used horseshoes with doubles, maybe even used a wide doubles horseshoe with a single tank, then they get a chance to dive a dedicated, narrow, singles donut. Often this path leaves the impression that a donut wing is the magic answer.

Don't misunderstand me, donuts work fine, and offer some advantages in terms of reduced profile, I just don't think that gas shifts from side to side through the bottom arc as often as some people think.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate your willingness to provide the information and your actual in water results.


Tobin

[PerroneFord]

I've used the Halcyon Evolve 40 with AL80s. I found it much easier in most cases, but the dump location was hard for me because I was not used to it coming from my DR Classic.

I'll be diving your Torus 45 extensively this June, so I'll let you know. I'll back-to-back it with my Classic.




Thanks Perrone

Have you used a "donut" doubles wing?

I ask because it appears that you have used horseshoes with doubles, and perhaps a donut with singles.

What always interests me is folks that have used both horseshoes and donuts with doubles, and folks that have used both narrow horseshoes and donuts for singles.

Unfortunately this is a pretty small group, given the DSS narrow horseshoe for singles are the only wings I know of that fit that description.

Much more commonly I find people who have used horseshoes with doubles, maybe even used a wide doubles horseshoe with a single tank, then they get a chance to dive a dedicated, narrow, singles donut. Often this path leaves the impression that a donut wing is the magic answer.

Don't misunderstand me, donuts work fine, and offer some advantages in terms of reduced profile, I just don't think that gas shifts from side to side through the bottom arc as often as some people think.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate your willingness to provide the information and your actual in water results.


Tobin

[TheRedHead]

I used the Venture wing with double AL 80s in a pool. I'm not sure if I would do it in open water. I prefer a round wing over a horseshoe. I'm going to replace my RecWing.

[cool_hardware52]

I've used the Halcyon Evolve 40 with AL80s. I found it much easier in most cases, but the dump location was hard for me because I was not used to it coming from my DR Classic.

I'll be diving your Torus 45 extensively this June, so I'll let you know. I'll back-to-back it with my Classic.


Great!

Let me know how it works.


Tobin

[brianstclair]

A set of wings that always seem to get overlooked,but is probably is one of the best for durability and shape,is the SeaTec wing.

I'll second that. I love my SeaTec. Nice trim, streamlined. And not to throw fuel on the fire or anything, but it's a horseshoe type of wing and I've never had any trouble venting air from it.

If you're not in a real rush to buy something, keep an eye on the gear exchange sections of www.thedecostop.com and www.cavediver.net. I picked up my doubles at a ridiculous price (thanks, Chris!) off of TDS and I just found a second used SeaTec wing which I bought for $50. Great deals pop up if you're patient and you don't need something TOMORROW.

Good luck.

Brian

[Cheetah223]

Thanks Brian, I'll keep an eye on both of them. I've been watching the trading boards here, but haven't seen a whole lot of interest just yet. I'm renewing the plates on my Jeep and everything so I can get a job now that school's out, hopefully I can land something that pays better than $6 heh.