Helium costs

[DocRCH]

I have a friend (not a diver) who works for a large compressed gas company. I asked him about He, and he told me that one of the other large suppliers (it's a cartel) had gone up 22%. A week or two later, he told me that his company had a meeting and that they were to increase their price by 100%. Apparently, there are only about 5 companies that can produce He. So, it appears that it is a closed market and they can raise the price because they can.

Robert :doctor:

[Uncle Pug]

DocRCH once bubbled...
increase their price by 100%.
I have a contract price of $45 per T of UHP.... I better stock up.

[CincyBengalsFan]

Prices have not risen in Ky. on He. Restuarants, Party supply stores...Some dive shops..All use He. and it's fairly cheap still.

[MikeFerrara]

$45 for a T! I just payed $79 for zero grade and and thats the best price I have ever gotten. I usually pay 79 for a K of zero grage. The last time I got a T of UHP it was $117.

I should just go through life bent over.

[raxafarian]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I should just go through life bent over.

you made me spit out the water I was drinking.:rolling:

[BFaure]

Us Texans need to make money you know...:) I think He prices have been low for the past few years because the USA has been slowly selling of National Defense stock of He (Texas is one of the few places in the world that He is mined in large amounts). They must have ran out or just stopped selling....

[MikeFerrara]

raxafarian once bubbled...


you made me spit out the water I was drinking.:rolling:

Sorry

[padiscubapro]

I pay $39 in ny for a K cylinder of He, and $50 for LOX delievered

[roakey]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
I pay $39 in ny for a K cylinder of He, and $50 for LOX delievered
Are you using some kind of Dewar? How long does it keep? How is LOX measured (weight or volume), and how does that translate to CF?

Roak

[padiscubapro]

Normally you get about 2 days to start pulling gas before the OPV starts operating as the temperature cools.. If you are using lots of gas You can expect at least 1 week.

I just feed the gas output into my manifold and pump it through my haskel, I generate my high Fo2 mixes in my banks then fill my own K cylinders with whats left over.. One lox cylinder is about the same as 20 k size cylinders or 13.8 T cylinders.. A considerable savings, plus you know its 100% whereas not all oxygen is 100% (its generally considered oxygen at 92% or more, molecular sieves will generate 93-96% o2), the remainder being Argon.

[Rick Murchison]

There's some good background info at this site
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/HH/doh2.html
Rick

[Ray2]

Hello everyone' I'm new to the board and this is my first post, so please be easy on me. This one is right up my alley as I work for a large welding supply dist and helium is a big part of the business.Helium prices range from approx 20.00 to 80.00 per cyl. of industrial grade depending on the quantity you purchase.There has been an increase in prices in the 5% range with a surchargeof $1.45 per 100 cf no where near 100%.Every couple of years there is a shortage scare which is industry generated,the supply and demand principle.The same thing happens with Argon.Has anyone considered using industrial grade?I know of one shop that does,with filters.Here are some specs. on helium, Ind grade 99.995%,HP grade 99.997% and UHP grade is 99.999 these are minimum purity.$45.00 for UHP He is a good price though you must consider rent or lease price if you dont own your own cylinders and yes you can purchase them but they have to be ordered from the factory,most Welding supply dist.will not tell you this.As for Lox it is the same as High pressure,it is pumped from the same storage tank so purity should not be a problem.One advantage would be ease of handling but there is an evaporation rate of 1% to 3% per day depending on the condition of the cylinder.I hope this helps.
Ray

[Ray2]

I forgot to address cyl. size
T=291 cf cyl
h=219 cf cyl, M=125 cf
We sell by the cf only medical gas cyl normally carry a letter designator,ie T,H,K,M,G but not all the time.Specialty gas such as the UHP Helium are sold as each.

[Uncle Pug]

And thanks for the information Ray! It will be great to have a gas guy on board :D

We already have some gaseous guys. ;)

[roakey]

Ray2,

My understanding is that the common gasses (O2, N2 and Ar) are separated by fractional distillation, not by molecular sieve, is this correct?

Roak

[DocRCH]

I was repeating what I had learned from a friend who is in sales for one of the 5 largest gas producers in the world (sometimes I feel that way after certain foods). For what is worth, his company intends to raise prices by 100% sometime in the next few months. It will be interesting to see if this is accurate. From what I understand He is not obtained from fractional distillation of air, it is produced in just a few areas in the world.

Robert:doctor:

[roakey]

DocRCH once bubbled...
From what I understand He is not obtained from fractional distillation of air, it is produced in just a few areas in the world.
Correct, it's mined.

Roak

[Ray2]

Roakey,
Fractional distillation 'I belive is a process that is used in the Oil industry and it involves heating, in this case crude oil, and collecting the different chemicals as they reach a certain temp.but Im pretty sure this process can be used different applications.The Molecular Sieves are not used to separate the common gases,the main use for them is removal of mosture ,Co2, Hydrocarbons and quite a few other elements, its a purifier.Air separation or reduction plants are where we produce O2,N2 and Ar,the process starts by pulling air from the atmosphere down a vertical stack using the venturi effect
the gas separates as it reaches the right temp, very cold ,smiley face here.It then goes to storage tank for distribution.Keep in mind this is a very basic description of the process.
Ray

[roakey]

Ray2 once bubbled...
where we produce O2,N2 and Ar,the process starts by pulling air from the atmosphere down a vertical stack using the venturi effect the gas separates as it reaches the right temp, very cold ,smiley face here.
That's fractional distillation. We're just talking about things that vaporize at very, very low tempratures, where Kelvin is a better unit of measurement :)

Roak

[Ray2]

Roakey,
Helium is found in natural gas deposits probably at the top of the well for obvious reasons.There is a big one in Texas owned by the government and I think Russia has a large supply also.

[roakey]

Like I said, it’s mined. There’s not enough in the atmosphere to seperate it out and isn’t bound chemically into any compounds that it can be split apart to yield it like Hydrogen.

Thanks for the 1-3% number for loss from a Dewar/day; that makes it quite clear that LOX's not something I want to look into!

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

So...I guess I pay more for He than everyone else.

[Ray2]

Roakey,
A better term might be Cryogenic Distillation.it just hit me:)
same process I guess.As for Lox a driver tipped over a Dewar
it ruptured spilling liquid on the bed of his truck ignighted and
he died in the fire.Also a good friend was filling a dewar and the
valve broke off filling his glove with Lox and it went down his
shirt,legs and into his shoes needless to say he has not worked
for a couple of years:( but seems to be making a full recovery.
Handle all liquid dewars with care
Ray

[roakey]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
So...I guess I pay more for He than everyone else.
Not much more than me, I think my T cost $65.

Ray2, even more reasons to stick with the gas version!

Roak

[Tibbs]

Not that I dive He (yet), but friends of mine pay up to 2p per litre of Helium. Since a twinset of 21/35 (2 x 12L cylinders) needs 1948.8 litres of helium for a 232bar fill - that's quite a lot of money! (£39.98 about $58 in your money).

Luckily I'm the member of a club so I would 'only' pay 1p per litre...

Chris

[padiscubapro]

Ray2 once bubbled...
Roakey,
Fractional distillation 'I belive is a process that is used in the Oil industry and it involves heating, in this case crude oil, and collecting the different chemicals as they reach a certain temp.but Im pretty sure this process can be used different applications.The Molecular Sieves are not used to separate the common gases,the main use for them is removal of mosture ,Co2, Hydrocarbons and quite a few other elements, its a purifier.Air separation or reduction plants are where we produce O2,N2 and Ar,the process starts by pulling air from the atmosphere down a vertical stack using the venturi effect
the gas separates as it reaches the right temp, very cold ,smiley face here.It then goes to storage tank for distribution.Keep in mind this is a very basic description of the process.
Ray

Membrane systems that produce nitrox, are molecular sieves also.. they work by letteing certain size molecules pass while others are trapped..
Oxygen generators where large volumes are not required use this method.. Most can generate 2000psi in a T cell in a day(93-96% is common), ones with an extra booster stage can do 3000 psi.

[Ray2]

Padiscubspro'
Yes, you are correct in your desciption of the membrane sys.
Here is what the book says"Mol. Sieves are synthetically
produced,crystalline metal aluminosilicates that have been activated for absorbtion by by removing their water of hydration.
Unlike other absorbents, Mol. Sieves have a precise uniform size
and molecular dimension. According to the size of these pores, molecules may be readily absorbed,slowly absorbed or completely
excluded.This sieve-like selectivity,based on molecular size,plus a selectable preference for polar or polarizable molecules,gives molecular sieves an extremely high level of absorbtion efficiency,
and permits close tailoring of the absorbent to the specific use.pore sizes vary by the type molecular sieve" and it give sizes
in angstoms. WoW, this will give you a headache quick:) I have a couple of home med. suppliers and they use the a similar type of O2 concentrator that produces approx. the %'s you stated.It is my understandiding this is reason why Medical O2 standard is only 95%.You guy's are are making use my brain too much, maybe
its the beer,I dont know?
Ray

[Jonathan]

Trimix is finally available in Japan - my instructor proudly told me 2 nights ago. So now he can sell the trimix courses!!

Only problem is: 20/40 (have I got that right 20% O2, 40% He?) in 2 x 12l is (drum roll please) 20,000 yen

To translate that is $170 or £110

He was not too upset when I said I would still do my cert in another country.

Just some food for thought.....

[Uncle Pug]

Jonathan once bubbled...
To translate that is $170

Move!

[Jonathan]

I will - eventually! But probably not till the end of next year.

Anyway the chances of me doing trimix diving here are very remote, they get upset if you are in the water for more than 40 minutes and only one or two skippers will let us do deco.

Should mention that a 12l nitrox fill is $25 - but then that does come in range of an expat package....

Jonathan

[roakey]

Figured I'd update this note with a current datapoint. I just got a quote on a T (291cf) of He, what Linweld calls "High Purity" -- 99.998%

$55

For anyone in the Northern West, I encourage you to take a look at Linweld, significantly cheaper than any other outfit I looked at:

http://www.linweld.com/locations.asp

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

Figured I'd update this note with a current datapoint. I just got a quote on a T (291cf) of He, what Linweld calls "High Purity" -- 99.998%

$55

For anyone in the Northern West, I encourage you to take a look at Linweld, significantly cheaper than any other outfit I looked at:

http://www.linweld.com/locations.asp

Roak

Boy don't I wish!

The last time I got helium I took some industrial grade but I still paid over $40 which is half what I was paying for HP and UHP.

[roakey]

Mike, do you rent bottles?

Linweld also has an interesting "security deposit" offering... You pay a $225 "security deposit" for a T bottle and there's no rental fee. You "own" the bottle (fills are still via exchange) and when you turn the bottle back in, you get your security deposit back.

So though a significant outlay initially, in about 3-4 years you've ahead of the game in terms of rental, if you ever get out of the gas stacking business, you get all your deposit back.

I don't know if other gas companies offer this kind of setup, but being an individual blender, it works very well for me where I might go months at a time without mixing...

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, do you rent bottles?

Linweld also has an interesting "security deposit" offering... You pay a $225 "security deposit" for a T bottle and there's no rental fee. You "own" the bottle (fills are still via exchange) and when you turn the bottle back in, you get your security deposit back.

So though a significant outlay initially, in about 3-4 years you've ahead of the game in terms of rental, if you ever get out of the gas stacking business, you get all your deposit back.

I don't know if other gas companies offer this kind of setup, but being an individual blender, it works very well for me where I might go months at a time without mixing...

Roak

Some of my bottles are leased for like $100 for three years and some I rent for like $5/month