Tech Dive Coputer

[tyrell]

Hello All

I’m looking to purchase a new dive computer for technical dive.
Currently im using a Zeagle Status 2 with 2 gas mixes and its doing a great job for several years..
Since i know more then a few people that their computer stopped working, an according to what i understand from Zeagle they stopped manufacturing this type, I would like to back the computer up.
The new one im looking for is needed to be a decompression computer with to mixes. I’m not using a dive computer for TriMix dives but if i can come up with a computer in a reasonable price, i will consider it.

Ill be happy to hear recommendations and suggestions regarding deco computers.

regards

mark

=-)

[Friggincold]

I prefer the dive computer between my ears(using decoplan tables) using a bottom timer on my wrist. Easily programmed......Safe diving

[JamieZ]

I'm sure most people who Tek dive will tell you, dont waste your money on a computer. You should be using a bottom timer and tables with a back up/bail out set in your pocket. Spend your money on good quality training, its not the gear that makes the diver its the training.

[Uncle Pug]

Uncle Pug = most people.

[wetman]

Not being a techy yet at all, i've been curious about this myself. Whats the point of those computers if techies aren't using them? My assumption is that once you get to that stage, you'd be made wise to the fact that most other techies aren't using them. Or are there techies that are? Or are there computers where you plan the dive and download that plan into the computer so that it can help guide your dive? These are the questions....

steve

[Uncle Pug]

Computers rot your brain... and rather than letting your brain rot now and at some point in the future decide to get into tech diving and actually need to use your brain... perhaps you might want to forego using a computer now and exercise your brain to make it strong and fit. :D

Of course the other alternative is to become hopelessly dependent upon computers for all diving and trust your life to a computer on a deco dive.... there are those who have no other option at this stage of neural necrosis... a mind is such a terrible thing to waste :(

[JimC]

I never quite understood why computer generated tables were better than computer generated tables as a backup to onthefly dive computer generated tables.

A question I intend to ask in my DIRF in a few weeks.

[Waterlover]

I did a 190 ft dive the other day using tables generated from Dplan. I took along my good old trusty Aladin Pro for shi## and giggles. Completed a 20 minute dive with the 38 minute deco the tables called for and gee had 53 minutes of deco left on the computer when I got out of the water.....man that computer makes alot of noise when you bend it:):)..... Just to add the computer was air only and I was using mix and 50/50 and O2 it's always fun to fool the computer.......oh yeah I was also using a bottom timer. Computers have a bad habit of dying on me:(

[maddiver]

Waterlover once bubbled...
I did a 190 ft dive Completed a 20 minute dive with the 38 minute deco I was using mix and 50/50 and O2


Wondered why you choose to run both a o2 and 70ft bottle on a dive of this nature (I took the liberty of assuming your bottom mix was ~18/35)? If open ocean why not look at running only the 70ft bottle and thereby eliminating both an extra bottle and a PPo2 spike at the end of the dive. Same dive can be done with 70 ft bottle alone with a couple extra minutes deco. 39min deco/ascent. That being said, having an o2 bottle onboard is always a plus.

[tyrell]

Hi guys
Thanks for all the answer but....

I am using a table and a bottom timer to plan my dive. The Tables are inside my laptop therefore im using a computer to make the dive plans.

I also take a wrist coputer to back myself up.

Im sorry but i see no difference between planning a dive with a computer and diving with one.

Fifteen years ago nobody used computers for diving, today everybodey does, this will happen also in the Tech diving , its just a matter of time, this is the progress we r living in.


b.t.w
the new PADI TechRec course demands a computer for tech diving.


mark

[Waterlover]

The dive was planned deeper but only made 190. I was using 18/45. I took the O2 along for practice carrying the 2 stages on deeper dives...I usually just use the 50/50 down to about 180 .

[detroit diver]

tyrell once bubbled...
Hi guys
Thanks for all the answer but....

I am using a table and a bottom timer to plan my dive. The Tables are inside my laptop therefore im using a computer to make the dive plans.

I also take a wrist coputer to back myself up.

Im sorry but i see no difference between planning a dive with a computer and diving with one.

Fifteen years ago nobody used computers for diving, today everybodey does, this will happen also in the Tech diving , its just a matter of time, this is the progress we r living in.


b.t.w
the new PADI TechRec course demands a computer for tech diving.


mark

There's a huge difference. Nothing wrong with planning on a computer on dry land. Take your results and put them on your wetnotes along with bailout plans.

If your computer craps out underwater, what have you got?

Wetnotes don't disappear. Computers sometimes do.

Computers aren't progress in Tech diving. They're marketing tools for the sales department.

When I see PADI requiring computers for they're tech course, that says enough. I'm running in the opposite direction. But of course, that's me....

[AquaTec]

a couple of questions:

1 - which tech divers are not using a computer?
2 - are those "majority" of tech divers all trained by GUE?
Halcyon obviously doesn't make a computer.
3 - is this why they don't promote computers or is their view point the reason they have not made one. we know they would never suggest the use of any gear that is not manufactured by themselves
4 - this computer between your ears, is it capable of doing algorithams. mine sure the f@$^% isn't.
5 - if you can not do algorithams in your head do you restric your diving to square patterns with written in stone bottom times, run times, and depths.
6 - what do you do if your dive falls outside that strict preset dive plan. [by accident of course]
7 - do you generate those custom dive tables with a computer, and do you trust that computer. or do you use a different computer to verify the tables you have generated.



Just some questions to better understand the the loud voices on this board

[JamieZ]

:nono:

[Divesherpa]

1. Not many in caves, not many in wrecks either.
2. Some are trained by GUE, lots (as evident on this board) are internet trained in "DIR" methods.
3. Interesting theory, I am unable to answer this question for you.
4. In a word, no. Most anti computer guys are stating that you "learn" the tables and also cut a set for between dives. (This is the best reason for standardized mixes.)
5. Mostly, yes
6. Contingency planning with tables is necessary, but very limited.
7.;)

Great questions.

As a side note, you will see lots of GUE cave guys with a Nitek 3 in cave country. I won't say most, but a lot more than the internet based DIR prescribers would ever believe.

Cheers and safe diving.

[AquaTec]

OK lets see.

1 - I agree with your final statement, everybody i have seen in cave country tends to use the Nitek 3. and every tech diver i know is using a computer if it opperates within the limits and gas they are diving.

it is true that a lot of trimix divers are stuck using bottom timer and tables, unless they have bought a VR3. but i will bet that most of them have a VR3 [or simular] on their list of purchases.

2 - I find it very interesting that you say they are DIR internet trained. that is a scary thought. I read somewhere here there is a guy who has been diving caves for 12 years and is not even a certified diver. you can not get trained from the internet. you can only get opinions and information. i to find the oppinions of people here supprising for how little experience they have, and their reason. they read it here or somewhere else on the internet. talk about taking stuff out of context and trying to apply it to real life.

3 - interesting theory

4 - so you not only limit yourself to the run times, & depths but also the mix you will use. this really sounds like a follow the leader mentality. which prompts another question
4a - for a bottom gas is it better to use a standard mix say not neccessarily the best mix, just because it is the only tables you have with you or memorized. or is it better to use the best mix for the dive. example [off the top of my head] 350 foot dive in cold water with a little current say to investigate a wreck. some of the desicions i would make about my bottom gas. this is a cold working dive so my PO2 should remain low say 1.0 to 1.2, also my END should stay high say 100 feet. i can inhance my rule of thirds by getting off the bottoma gas asap [plus other theories for this] so i might choose 32% or 36% as a travel/deco gas.
so the best mix based on the physiological perameters i have set would be a "custom" gas. just think of the flexability.
as opposed to having a predetermind gas i "must" use set the peramiters of the dive.

now add into that a intermidiat trimix [which i could argue both pros and cons to this, depending on the acual dive i would be doing.

5 - to bad, you don't know what you are missing, say in a good wreck with several levels 150 feet down with amazing visability, and artifacts everywhere. and then you find the entrance to the engine room.
i will give a little example. last week i was in the Caymans we planned a dive to the Donut off of the turttle farm. our guide uses tables she planned for 240 feet. my buddy and I had computers VR3's so we get there and guess what the swim through was at 250 feet. no problem we went through the whole and she [and her buddy] waited on the other side. She could not break depth.
on the way up at out first stop at 200 feet she planned 1 minute. guess what there was a 300 pound turttle just hanging out there with us whille he danced and eventualy mated with a smaller female. we my buddy and i spend about 4 minutes watching this rare event, as she moved on over the wall missing it all.
and finaly we cleared deco about 20 minutes before she did.

6 - I consider contingences as the most critical portion of the planning, can you imagine all the possiblities of proper contingencies that SHOULD BE figured for
over depth/time, loss of gas, deco, or travel. what do you do if you loose your mid range deco gas [50% or 36%] and need to stay on your back gas. I just switch my computer back to my back gas and it recalculates my new deco times.

7 - i agree if a computer breaks above water big deal. but have you decided to just trust the tables you generate from one program on one computer. this is extreme i know, but so is closing your eyes to technology because you don't trust it

Don't get me wrong i am not opposed to the use of tables, thats where i started, but i used to have a rotary phone and no microwave as well.

It is like saying i don't believe in air bags because my car doesn't have them or i cant afford them, air bags are dangerouse, but they save more lives that they take. [and i have seen them take lives]

I appreciat the descution it is entertaining. however it is not training is it.

[Divesherpa]

4. I don't use standardized gases. Best gas for the dive is something that I very strongly believe in.
5. Boils down to planning. If I'm ever in the water, I have a computer with me. Currently trying out the VR3, I enjoy it in caves, but yet to hit the ocean.
6. Most software cuts tables for gas loss, but it is much easier to just press a button or two.
7. See 5

[AquaTec]

you will love it

[Divesherpa]

The store I teach through occasionally is having me do the demo. It is great so far. I hope they come up with a MP3 version soon as I would love to jam from it.

[uk diver 2000]

I use a VR3 and carry back up tables. You can buy the basic version and upgrade it for trimix, SCR, CCR, etc. at a later date. The folks at Phoenix add new upgrades with some regularity, SCR being the most recent. I'm pleased with it so far, although the video game needs some work!

[tyrell]

I’m glad to see that there are some divers who do not go blindfolded after some guru.
Today, hen we have the technology, i believe there is no reason not to adopt it and gain it’s advantages Nobody is talking about throwing away the traditional way but finding a better solution to the disadvantages of the traditional table.
When a new development comes out there will be always ones who will adopt it and others that will reject it. Its normal, this is the way of the human race.

I would like to bring a quote from GUE's site

"Man's mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimension.."-Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Think about it...

regards
Mark
:puter:

[detroit diver]

tyrell once bubbled...
I’m glad to see that there are some divers who do not go blindfolded after some guru.
Today, hen we have the technology, i believe there is no reason not to adopt it and gain it’s advantages Nobody is talking about throwing away the traditional way but finding a better solution to the disadvantages of the traditional table.
When a new development comes out there will be always ones who will adopt it and others that will reject it. Its normal, this is the way of the human race.

I would like to bring a quote from GUE's site

"Man's mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimension.."-Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Think about it...

regards
Mark
:puter:

Mark,

Other than you, who mentioned GUE? If you've got a problem with George Irvine and his delivery methods, then stand in line. But George isn't GUE. He's project director of WKPP, and nothing else. On the other hand, he's doing stuff with his team that only others dream about. And people are taking notice because it's working. Myself, I like to follow something that is working, not the one who just talks about it.

Mr. Holmes's quote above is quit succinct. If you use your computer to tell you when to stop, when to ascend, when to switch gases, etc-how can your mind expand? It's doing everything for you. You rely blindly on it, and when it stops working, so do you....

I've thought about it....and my eyes are wide open.

Jack

Oh yeah, I am GUE trained. Actually took classes.

[Cave Diver]

AquaTec once bubbled...
i will give a little example. last week i was in the Caymans we planned a dive to the Donut off of the turttle farm. our guide uses tables she planned for 240 feet.

Hey AT,

I was just there also. Aug 29-Sept10. We did several dives off of Turtle Reef and a few off of Cobalt Coast. Who did you dive with? Nancy? Didnt get to see your depths because we were diving air and Nitrox to recreational limits. In fact, finished up my advanced nitrox while we were there. Trimix is next... Had some fantastic diving nonetheless.

[dvas]

hi tyrell,
before starting my tek course, I by accident heard about VR3 http://www.vr3.co.uk. From then on, I have read a lot about it and I am almost sure that it will replace my Aladin Pro nitrox, as soon as I can afford it.
BTW, I don't want to write about VR3 here too much, since you can find a lot of info about it on the web, including here.
Meduza is bringing it to Israel.

sasha

[Lost Yooper]

I use a Vyper on gauge mode and V-Planner. Once you know how deco works for you, you can figure it out in your sleep. It helps to use standard gasses and standard profiles.

I agree with UP.

Mike

[MikeFerrara]

I'm using software and wearing a computer. The computer is usally used as a gauge and timer. If I'm diving nitrox I can also use the computer for a possible bailout or sanity check. The computer is no help at all on trimix dives. Increasingly my "deeper" dives are on trimix, even my 130's.

Caves definatly present some planning challanges without a computer. It is only practicle to run and carry so many tables on a dive. Planning a square profile in some caves will result in doing deco ALL day if you don't plan a multilevel dive. unfortunatly this is hard to do if you have no (or little) prior knowlege about the cave, which is what we are all looking for.

For instance, I have been diving Roubidoux in Missouri. The cave stays between 40 ft and 50 ft untill you get a couple hundred feet in and then drops to 140+. It stays between 140 and 160 for a while and then dips below 200. How long it takes to get to the drop depends on alot of things the biggest being flow. Once you do get past the drop there are lots of nooks and crannies to go look at. I can and do use software to plan this dive multilevel but it really limits the flexibility unless I carry many sets of tables. If I had a trimix computer I would still run the tables but I would have another tool and more flexability. For a dive like this we're not talking about a 25 min 160 or 170, I can do those in my head for the mixes I usually dive because I have run them so many times. In this case we would be talking about much longer bottom times and much longer deco.

I am aware of prifiling and for some dives might be comfortable using it to invent a way home but for long mix dives you won't have tables to calculate your profile.

On the other hand, we have been doing progressively longer dives in this cave. We cut some tables with variations then penetrate a ways and see what the cave looks like. The next time we plan a longer dive using the knowlege gained from the last dive. Some would argue that progressive penetration is the way to go anyway but...the guys with computers go further faster the me.

For tech dives you can't really follow a computer blindly as you may be suprised to find out that you don't have enough gas to deco or that you will freeze while doing the deco. You still need to plan for lost gas and so on.

The problem I have with the Nitek3 is that I don't like the deco it gives (no deep stops) and no trimix. The vr3 may solve those problems.

If I ever decide to spend the money to get a vr3, I will use it in conjunction with my dive planning software and my knowlege of decompression theory not instead of it.

[AquaTec]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
If I ever decide to spend the money to get a vr3, I will use it in conjunction with my dive planning software and my knowlege of decompression theory not instead of it.

there is no other way to use any computer, just add to that gas management, and a VR3 will become a great friend

[jeepster0000]

I know I am not a tech diver yet. I am still in taking the training as we speak. I have an advanced nitrox class that I am finishing up over thanksgiving, and probably a DIRF over christmas. I used to use a computer to plan all my diving. I figured the technology was sound and safe. One dive my computer did some funky things, like reading the depth wrong, wrong tempatures, and other wierd stuff. I thought that was a fluke so I put it in the back of my mind.

After talking to my instructors and proficient tech divers, I realized how much I wasted on the computer. I dive tables and do the calculations my self. I still carry a computer with me, since I spent the money, it makes a good bottom timer and depth gauge. I hardly go off the computer unless I am just jumping into the river to look for artifacts, or a bunch of multilevel repeatitive dives like in the keys. If I do any diving over 60 feet I use the computer between my ears, and what I can print out using GAP, Vplanner, or tables.

After reviewing the advanced nitrox book several times, I am sure glad that I can do those calculations without the aid of a computer.

This is just my 2 cents, but take it for what it is worth. I am not a tech diver, but I have been doing my research.
Adam

[padiscubapro]

I dive with both tables and at least 2 dive computers both of which are trimix and ccr capable, a third (which is usually in my drysuit pocket is ccr capable).

I plan most of my dives with tables and don't exceed them, The computers generally confirm my profiles.. The computers are invaluable if you have to bail out from planned dives.. I plan my contingency situations but computers that can be programmed with everyones gasses gives much added flexibility..

I usually dive ccr so I build tables based on the bailout I carry, if there are other gasses available to me I could switch to them if they are better suited instead of blindly following my tables.. I have also had deco gas failures on OC.. Instead of having to exchange one of my regs underwater (to stay on my tables), I merely stayed on my current gas (and did lost gas bailout) until by buddy was finished with his gas and used it.. Sure got me out of the water quicker.. (a hypoxic trimix is not very good for decompressing!)

The only time I dive my computers is when I am exploring and not sure what I am going to do.. I'll build a few tables based on estimates(so I know what my maximum bailout requirements are), but will pretty much follow my computers since the likelyhood of 2 or 3 computers failing is not very likely..
With my upcomming INFINITO CCR it will have built in decompression (as will the hammerhead for the inspiration) also so its even less likely...