Necklace rigging

[Jonathan]

I'm starting to get really hacked off with this!!

Has anyone got a decent photo or reference site where I can see a necklace rigged on a SP R380?

First attempt with surgical tubing almost drowned me, not to mention coming off all the time. This time I tried bungee and a zip tie round the mouth piece and still it came of - but when it was there did not drown me.

Help would be much appreciated or that octo-quick comes back out....

Cheers
Jonathan

[Spectre]

Jonathan once bubbled...
This time I tried bungee and a zip tie round the mouth piece and still it came of

Did you add a zip tie, or replace the zip-tie that holds the mouthpiece to the regulator?

[wetman]

You might want to try bungee instead of surgial tubing. I think it ties better with a more firm grip on itself. I haven't had any issues with anything coming appart that shouldnt. I got my bungee at a hardware store (canadian tire) - its pretty easy to find and quite cheap.

steve

[Aquamaniac]

Be sure to tie knots in the END of the bungee, use a new zip tie and REALLY clamp it down.
This image is using rubber, I prefer bungee with knots, but either works fine.
http://www.wkpp.org/images/pina_equip/backup_reg_attach_r.jpeg

[nickjb]

I use an o-ring to hold the mouthpiece. It is about 30mm (1.5 in) in diameter and about 3mm thick. We have loads in the stores at work. I then took another very large (10 in diameter), cut it, and tied each end to the o-ring. You could use bungy for second o-ring, but we have loads of o-rings in the stores at work;)

This holds the reg firmly. You can adjust the fit with different o-rings (I'm getting like Pug and his zip ties) so it is as tight or as loose as you prefer.

[roakey]

Use bungee, tie figure eight knots at each end, remove the existing wire tie that holds on the mouthpiece, put a new one on and trap the bungee under it with the knots "far side" of the wire tie from the diver.

Roak

[JamieZ]

I use surgical tubing and tie a loop around the mouth piece. I dont use bungee because it ties to tight. I would rather have a panicked diver rip the reg from the tubing then to rip the mouth piece off. I know you could still breath it but dont like the idea. Thats another reason I dont wrap it up under the zip tie. You hope in a bad situation that the diver will go for the reg. your breathing but thats not always going to be the case.

[Jonathan]

ah, think I see where I am going wrong now! Thanks guys.

What I was doing was adding another zip tie - for those familiar with SP regs they are not actually held in by a zip tie but some contraption that SP came up with. I'll remove that and only use one zip tie...

Thanks
Jonathan

[awap]

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=326969&t=326969

[Jonathan]

thanks awap - I tried something simimalar with surgical tubing but other than trying to drown me (which bungee won't) it always slipped of and was a real pain - how do you keep it on the reg?

cheers

[awap]

Jonathan once bubbled...
thanks awap - I tried something simimalar with surgical tubing but other than trying to drown me (which bungee won't) it always slipped of and was a real pain - how do you keep it on the reg?

cheers

I use bungee with the figure 8 knots creating the loop for the mouthpiece connection. I pull it tight up close to the main body of the reg (R190) and have never had any problem with it coming loose. But if an OOA diver grabs it, it comes loose with a reasonable tug. I do not use an additional tie that might prevent an OOA diver from grabbing it.

[Wendy]

I'm heading to south florida on Saturday and to a shop that sells the bungee necklaces. If anyone wants me to pick them up one shoot me over a PM. I think they are about $8.

[GUEdiver]

Also, FYI you can order bungee in 10 foot lengths for $6 to $7 at http://www.reefscuba.com.

I used to tie the figure eight to slip around my SP R380 mouthpiece, but when I attended the DIRF Course, it was pointed out that the reg could come out of the loop in a current or if someone yanks on it. Therefore, as mentioned in previous posts, we were taught to simply tie knots in the ends of the bungee and secure them tightly under a standard zip tie that also secures the mouthpiece to the reg. I've been diving with it this way quite a bit and it works great. Very secure and no worries of slipping out.

Safe diving!

[Scubaroo]

Welcome to ScubaBoard, GUEDiver.

Does anyone have pics of a necklace that allows the diver to *tighten* it so that the backup reg stays in the diver's mouth once it's there? Hooking the necklace "over the ears" to keep the reg in place as I've read before doesn't work if you're wearing a hood.

At the moment mine looks identical to the one in the WKPP link Aquamaniac posted.

[taat2d]

If you rig your backup reg with the necklace rigging how long should the hose be?

[JamesK]

Tight up against your neck, but not overly tight. The bungee should stretch a little to help hold the reg in your mouth.

*Simply my opinion though*

[taat2d]

So the reg should sit right under your chin?

[JamesK]

In my opinion, yes.

[nickjb]

doesn't it get in the way when you look down?

[JamesK]

Actually, no. This is because when I am horizontal, looking down is like looking forward on the surface. If I want to look behind me, I just fix my trim so I am slightly head down, and everything is AOK! I have my reg set so I can access it without using my hands. I can bend my head down, and reach it with my mouth.

[Scubaroo]

JamesK once bubbled...
Tight up against your neck, but not overly tight. The bungee should stretch a little to help hold the reg in your mouth.

*Simply my opinion though* I'm experimenting with a new design (just need to get the knots and a pulltab sorted) that uses 1/8" bungee and is adjustable. Basically it's a small loop on one end of a piece of bungee, that is very TIGHT around the mouthpiece, and the other end of the bungee is slipped under the loop (with a knot or pulltab on the end to prevent it slipping out), so you have the standard necklace - but in a handoff situation, you can pull the "loose" end of the bungee like a ziptie and tighten the bungee around your head so the reg doesn't fall out. The friction of the bungee under the tight loop of bungee around the mouthpiece keeps the necklace tight, but it is easily loosened by grabbing the reg from your mouth and giving it a good tug. Once I'm happy with it I'll post some pics.

So the necklace can be work loose for comfort and for putting it on/taking it off, and adjusted tight to hold the reg in your mouth when needed.

[thethumper]

Now I use tubing & my mouth piece touches my throat. I dive Poseidons & have yet to be able to get the back up into my mouth w/o hands. Now in my pic, I have it rigged a bit different due to a 7' hose failure, but I normally have my octo on a 7' hose DIR fashion around my neck & in my mouth & my primary (black) 1st stage in neclace. Even when around my neck the reg sits sort of @ an angle.

W/O replacing regs :nono: , got any thoughs on it?

[JamesK]

bengiddens,

I used to wear mine a little loose, kinda like you are describing, but I did not like it. I tightened it up more towards my neck, and it feels much better to me now. You can see in my profile that it hangs down. That is the old way I did it.

If you get your neckalce thing rigged up, post a picture of it. I would like to see it, and possible try it.

[nickjb]

JamesK once bubbled...
Actually, no. This is because when I am horizontal, looking down is like looking forward on the surface. If I want to look behind me, I just fix my trim so I am slightly head down, and everything is AOK! I have my reg set so I can access it without using my hands. I can bend my head down, and reach it with my mouth.

So are you saying it does prevent you from looking 'down'? (down - as in back by touching your chin on your chest)

I have mine quite tight but it sometimes restricts neck movement (by catching my chin on it). I don't think I want it any tighter. One of the reasons I went for th modified Hogarthian rig was freedom of movement.

[JamesK]

It is not actually all the way up on my chin, but about an inch below it, touching my throat. The mouthpiece does hit, but I do not think it restricts any movement.

I should have been a little more clear when I said it was up under my chin. It is under my chin, but an inch down my neck. Does taht make sense? Sorry if I caused any confusion! I am not thinking to well today.

[jlargent]

I found some pics showing the backup reg.
http://www.sfdj.com/fall/beyond2.html

This should give you an idea.

[Rockhound]

I particularly like the article posted on the South Florida Dive Journal, as it gives me the clearest view of what you guys are talking about.

Because I am a photographer, I often dive SOLO. Obviously, this makes my use of the term "DIR" in reference to any of my own unacceptable diving habits the equivalent of blasphemy.

Although I've been diving for many years, I do not consider myself "advanced" (except in age). I am, however, experienced enough to appreciate much of what what has been adopted as "Hogartharian" diving (I hoped I spelt it Rite). At lof of this "technique" or "religion" (depending on the POV), is simply old school diving. Minimalist rigs, back floatation, brass spgs, jetfins and modified kicks for conditions, wrist mounted gauges...these were all common when I learned to dive in the mid 70's.

Although I had never heard of "DIR" until I came to this site, I find the philosophy interesting, if not altogether applicable to me and my current style of diving. I certainly can appreciate the thoughtful and serious approach they take to diving. Much of what I find lacking in the current state of dive training does appear to be addressed by the level of training and COMPETENCY espoused by the folks who practice "DIR". Competent trained divers are safe divers. A lot of what i see coming out of the LDS schools is just plain bunk.

Some of what DIR espouses is already my habit, some I have tried in the past and discounted, and others are completely new to me.

This "long hose" concept is fascinating. I have dived a long hose (6') in the past, but as my "safe second" and not as my primary. I was taught way (okay, WAY) back to run my backup over my opposite shoulder and to stow the hose so that it would release when tugged. I used it like this a couple of times and found it convenient when deployed and aggravating most of the rest of the time.

If a handoff could be completed, this was my donor rig. It placed the OOA diver in a "face to face" position, where you could watch his eyes and maintain some measure of control.

If the handoff was unsuccessful or incomplete, then this became my primary, albeit upside down with the hose coming over my left shoulder. (no exhaust tee for mask clearance. It would breathe "wet", but well enough....).

In that case, I got tired of constantly having to restow the thing as it would periodically come loose on my dives. I finally abandonded the long hose as an entanglement hazard. There had to be a better way, but I simply went back to using the "opposite" shoulder approach, but with a shorter hose. That is the way I dive today.

However, the idea of wrapping the hose around your neck and using it as your primary AND as the donor rig makes sense to me, even though it looks goofy as all get-out. I can see the common sensical approach and the inherent advantages.

Only a couple of concerns from my end:

First, I once had a panicked diver, NOT MY BUDDY, come from behind and snatch my secondary rig by the hose. Unfortunately, my "breakaway" lanyard didn't break away and he just about snatched my head off. As it was I had to deal with a panicky diver AND a flooded mask.


Second, I have had two incidences where my mouthpiece separated from my regulator. The first time, it was on a night dive in rough water in Lake Ponchartrain (don't ask!). I got a couple of warning "wet breaths" before the flood almost choked me. It seemed that my local LDS had convinced me to switch to a new "soft touch" silicon mouthpiece. Unfortunately, the strap tie literally cut through the mouthpiece material and it managed to hang on only enough to let me get to about 15' or so. Blecch. Lake Ponchartrain was nasty.

The next time, I don't know what happened, but I suddenly found myself at 70' with a mouthpiece in my mouth sans regulator.

Hence my worry---The DIR type bungee setup includes using the strap tie both as a mouthpiece fastener and a bungee restraint. This sort of double duty is generally considered an "engineering no-no" as it introduces both increased stress at the attachment point and increased risk of multiple failures during one "event".

I could see the apparent, if rare, problem of having a panicked diver in an OOA emergency grab your bungeed rig and ripping the mouthpiece free as he tried to swim up with it.

At that moment, you will have a mouth full of water, a look of surprise and (likely) a flooded mask. The panicked diver will likely be even more surprised when he discovers he has to breath out of a hard plastic orifice.

Does this mean I disagree with the principal OR the setup? Nope. I'm learning something new and simply working through the negatives. I'm curious to see how you guys address these concerns. I still think the idea is intruiging enough that I'm already pricing some "long hose" for a test dive with that setup. Now, I just need someone to convince me to put my bungee (or tubing) UNDER the strap tie for my mouthpiece. THAT is the only hangup I have with this right now.....

Thanks for your patience....

[roakey]

Try as I might, I can't see a panicked diver reaching PAST the working, breathing regulator in your mouth trying to go for one hidden under your chin.

A diver trying for a regulator from behind? Despite you having gone through this experience it's pretty unlikely, and in that situation anything can happen (he could grab the SPG hose for all we know). DIR isn’t a panacea. You could come up with a failure scenario for any kind of configuration in that case.

Just stick your primary behind you into their face and let them go for it (hopefully). If the mouthpiece is pulled off, breathe off the reg body. May not be comfortable but it certainly isn’t difficult.

Bottom line is you’re almost talking about a triple failure here: A OOA situation, a strange way of trying to get a regulator (from behind) AND the mouthpiece falling off in the process. We don’t bother to even try solving most double failures, much less triple ones.

Roak

[Rockhound]

I'll accept that what happened was rare, but it did happen. By way of explanation, my "safe second" hose was marked with colored tape, so it stood out. Maybe that is why he went for it.

I had no othe hoses "over the top" on that side. My SPG went underarm, where it was attached with a bolt clip. My BC, an ATPAC, had an internal inflate hose, with only about 6" of it exposed to grab. The ONLY hose available was my octo.

It is also possible the other diver was simply "grabbing on" to get to me and was not actually targeting the attached regulator. We never discussed the issue other than to say how happy we were that "things turned out".

I do worry some about the use of the strap tie to secure both the mouthpiece and the bungee to the regulator, but it is a minor picadillo that is base more on my perception that it is an inelegant arrangement, if not inherently unsafe.

I WILL likely give it a try, since the general configuration makes a lot of sense. MMm....where is a good spot to buy one of those hoses? I'm not having much luck.

[jlargent]

Try:
http://www.extreme-exposure.com/
or
http://www.northeastscubasupply.com/

Both have long hoses available.

[roakey]

http://www.lloydbaileysscuba.com/

http://www.fifthd.com/

Note if you're looking at replacing more than one hose (like the shorter backup hose and short SPG hose) that Halcyon makes a hose package which is handy:

http://www.halcyon.net/acc/hoses.shtml

Roak

[Jonathan]

well I'm still here.

Thanks to all those that helped - it's obvious when you know the answer which is why this board is so good.

I have removed the sp attachment thingy and have one zip tie holding the mouth piece and bungee in place.

Now hopefully I can do my Technical Diver course in a bit more comfort when it comes to using the back up.

Thanks guys
Jonathan

[Genesis]

with the SP clip (I have an R380) and used surgical tubing for the bungee.

Works fine.

It probably wouldn't work for bungee though, due to the lower amount of compressability of the stuff compared to the tubing.

[dmdalton]

This will depend on the 1st stage, single or manifolded doubles. The hose should be just long enough to hold in your mouth and not get pulled out when you turn your head to the left. The hose doesn't extend out past the edge of my shoulder. Usually figure 22-26".

Dave D

[WreckWriter]

Interesting. I don't have mine tight like you guys are describing, it hangs fairly loose. If I have it in my mouth my teeth hold it there. Am I missing some reason for having it tighter?

Tom

[Silverback]

What about mounting the necklace around the tee exhaust or through it rather then around the mouth piece. I've found in cold water, low 30's, your lips are so num that if you don't get a seal with the neckless there. Also, with it mounted there, I've found that it hangs in a manner where you have manover it up to get it in. You also run the risk of having the neckless pull the mouth piece off the reg. I've not had it happen to me, but I've seen it and it will always happen at the time that is "really" the wrong moment.

I've found that if its through the tee or where the loop goes around the tee, (which is the way I'm using it now) it hangs in a possition where all I have to do is duck my head down, lowering my mouth and its in. Hands free kind of deal...

Dave

[WreckWriter]

Silverback once bubbled...
I've found that if its through the tee or where the loop goes around the tee, (which is the way I'm using it now) it hangs in a possition where all I have to do is duck my head down, lowering my mouth and its in. Hands free kind of deal...

Dave

Interesting idea but it seems it would put the reg in a "mouthpiece hole up" position which would give a greatly increased tendancy to freeflow.

Tom

[Silverback]

Tom,

One would think so, but it actually doesn't. With the pinch point on the bottom of the tee, the reg hanges with the mouth piece in the down and the purge button resting on my chest. The angle it hanges at, when horizontal in the water column, allow me to just duck down and pick it up. Now, to be fair here, I've only been able to do this a couple of times and in most practice cases, doing shutdowns or air sharing drills, I still use my free hand. More then likely in a reflex actons, but the main reason I've gone to this connection is because of (a) a lower risk of having the mouth piece pop off or (b) not being able to get a good seal when your lips are cold and num. Nothing worse then taking a breath and finding water due to a bad mouth seal.

Also, I use the Apex TX100 around my neck and I close down the venturi when not in use, lowering the risk of a free flow.

Dave