GUE, DIR, and Philosophy part II

[Divesherpa]

After spending many hours with the "philosopher" of GUE and DIR, and discussing said organization, "enlightenment" in understanding GUE and their direction has been attained (instead of personal opinion). The path to understanding GUE has been difficult, with many hours spent around instructors, members, and heads of the organization.
You guys from the PNW have made some valid points that are backed by GUE. You all don't have anyone else that is doing any form of deeper stuff in your viscinity (safely) that gets publicity. The training is earth-shattering compared to how you guys were taught, which explains a lot of why you are such fervert practicioners and advocates for DIR. This was not clear to me while diving there as I was based in Florida overhead diving practices. While discussing Alaska (and other PNW) diving with one of the top guys, he informed me why the PNW was such a great target and Georgitsis was developing a following in the area. The other key areas to target are mostly hotspots for wreck diving (and Europe).
What it boils down to is making people feel they are part of something bigger and giving them someone to follow. Most people need someone to guide them, and GUE is doing a great job of capitalizing by giving the gung ho divers some gung ho figures to sit around and discuss any time they can't get to the water and act like they were doing the dives the other figures are doing regularly.
GUE is also training the next set of "support" divers, volunteers who will give their time and money to allow a few people to accomplish their dreams. This is a win-win situation because the support guys get to provide assistance to the "big guys" and be a part of a team that breaks world records. The "big guys" get elevated to supreme status due to this following, and they deserve every bit of it.
GUE and DIR is Platonic in basis. There are 3 classes of people: leaders, followers, and guardians. Students make up the followers, the Guardians are the instructors, and the leaders offer tidbits of wisdom and do big "fun" stuff. The wise followers may be elevated to Guardian status with hard work and diligence. The Guardian may be elevated to leader through wisdom. For the good of the organization, the followers can be taught, but their learning must be limited so they don't rise out of ranks and overthrow the leaders.
I am so happy that I finally understand the philosophy of an organization that does such wonderful stuff. I enjoyed what I have learned from the GUE guys, but it is very limited in it's nature.
Cheers,


DIR on request, but only on request.

[AquaTec]

Nice job of helping us understand GUE.

the idea is geniuss. create a dive club/training agency/ gear sales organization. eveyting well funded, organized, and well publicised

make it elitest so that there is pride in belonging, creat that pride in belonging by hammering on anyone who doesn;t belong. don't let anyone belong unless they by your gear and take the training from you.

All that crap aside I must say i do like the club idea, I would be happy to be a support diver on the Britanic 98 dive team or i might even sell my soul to GUE if it meant i could be a bottom diver on the team. TDI or IANTD could take some lessons from them in the dive club idea.

there are people here in the PNW that are doing some great tech diving and doing it right, non GUE, but we just don't make a big stink about it. especialy here on this board.

so tell us about what you found out about DIR

[King Kong Matt]

Divesherpa once bubbled...
There are 3 classes of people: leaders, followers, and guardians. Students make up the followers, the Guardians are the instructors, and the leaders offer tidbits of wisdom and do big "fun" stuff. The wise followers may be elevated to Guardian status with hard work and diligence. The Guardian may be elevated to leader through wisdom. For the good of the organization, the followers can be taught, but their learning must be limited so they don't rise out of ranks and overthrow the leaders.


I am sincerely hoping you didn't mean to describe it in quite as cult-like terms as are used here.

[Divesherpa]

It is not meant to be cult like at all, King Kong. This is how it was described to me from one of the heads. Most organizations that function properly are organized in a similar manner. Consider your very own government. The trend was originally established by Plato following Socratic principles and carrying them over to government and other organizations. Ever heard of Alexander the Great? George W. Bush?
Same philosophical ideals, different message. It is a wonderful system. I wish I had thought of it first.

[jlargent]

Though it may be run that way, I think you are missing the big point. Properly trained divers!
PADI, TDI, etc take a none diver throw them in a pool for a couple of hours, then throw them in the open water 4 times and tell them they are ready.
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified? I've seen a few but these were the extreme ones that couldn't even put their head under water, the rest got a C-card, didn't matter if they could pass skills or not. There are instructors out there that are the exception to this. The problem starts at the top though with the Certifying agency pushing marketing and sales vs compatent and safe divers.

Just my 2c's

[TCDiver1]

jlargent once bubbled...
Though it may be run that way, I think you are missing the big point. Properly trained divers!
PADI, TDI, etc take a none diver throw them in a pool for a couple of hours, then throw them in the open water 4 times and tell them they are ready.
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified? I've seen a few but these were the extreme ones that couldn't even put their head under water, the rest got a C-card, didn't matter if they could pass skills or not. There are instructors out there that are the exception to this. The problem starts at the top though with the Certifying agency pushing marketing and sales vs compatent and safe divers.

Just my 2c's No system is perfect, the imperfections exist due to human nature.

No training agency i am aware of promotes certifying OW students who don't master established skills or knowledge. The human factor enters with instructors who allow this to happen & therefore are not doing what they were trained to do.

Yes, most agencies train their instructors very well. If you don't believe me go watch an IDC or IE some weekend to view the beatin that takes place. Three out of six failed the IE i was in.

Oh and where is the students responsibility in all this. Is the student responsible for keeping the skills they did learn up to par?
The short answer is .... yes, the student is responsible too.

Ask any of the DIRF people in here how much they practice the skills they learned. Something i greatly respect about the DIR mentality is that, practicing skills, in an attempt to perfect them, is mandatory. Something every diver, OW or otherwise could learn from.

I agree that the winds may be blowin toward a more DIR-esk philosophy for training, which i don't think is a bad thing. But the existing training systems are far from broken. Instructors who don't teach what they are suppose to & students who let their skills slip, are broken.

[King Kong Matt]

I won't disagree that the point of GUE is to produce properly trained divers, but the argument you have made is...respectfully...a poor one in my opinion.

As you state, the point of GUE is to produce properly trained divers:


jlargent once bubbled...
Though it may be run that way, I think you are missing the big point. Properly trained divers!


This is the big point because, as you say:


jlargent once bubbled...
PADI, TDI, etc take a none diver throw them in a pool for a couple of hours, then throw them in the open water 4 times and tell them they are ready.
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified?

If the primary problem is organizations like PADI and their card-happy instructors and GUE is focused on the solution: properly trained divers - for the logic of your argument to hold up you would have to conclude that GUE offers a competing, entry-level certification like PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc

But they don't. Open Water Cert and 20-25 (correct me if I am wrong) is a requirement for Fundamentals.

Again...not DIR bashing...would gladly take the class and learn more about the system...just a weak argument.

Respectfully,
Matt

[NetDoc]

as the new-comer it is incumbent to point out how lacking the old-timers must be. I am sure that PADI and NAUI, et al, used some of the same arguments about "failed teaching methods" etc when they were first organized. The real proof will be 40 years hence when we will see how long the "standards" will have lasted through a generation or two of instructors.

In my most humble (and usually flawed) opinion, the agency does not matter near as much as the individual instructor in ANY instructional endeavor. While I do not accept students just to humiliate them with failure, I have still "failed" (not certified) half as many students as I have passed. No, I am not just pulling "data" out of my butt nor am I speculating or claiming that just because I haven’t heard it, it must be so. Those are just facts!!! NO ONE has the corner on quality instructors. I take each and every one of those "failed" students personally, and am still trying to work with them to improve their skills so that they too, may be certified divers. Calling other agencies or un-named instructors "C-card happy" is reckless and borders on the insincere!

Many times "the powers that be" will try to keep hold onto their little slice of control... is this happening with DIR??? Well, I have no first hand knowledge, but I have NO REASON to discount what Divesherpa has posted. He seems a reasonable and honest person and what he has proffered is purported to come from their hierarchy. I will consider him guiltless until some tangible proof otherwise is submitted.

[TCDiver1]

Couldn't agree more Pete. The individual instructor makes all the diff. in the world. Although i can't say i've failed as many as i have passed, a good many students have not had the "right stuff" to meet the minimum standards.

I get tired of people who have not walked the walk, judging the people who walk the walk everyday.

By the way, you need to lose the elf look you got going in your pic! I was a scout years ago & that would have scared the cr*p out of me!:tease:

[Divesherpa]

[QUOTE]jlargent once bubbled...
[B]
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified?
Last week I failed a cavern student. It was not nice, but that's the way it is. This is the first cavern student that I have failed, but he did not belong in overhead of any kind. I have certified quite a few diver PADI Scuba Diver instead of OW. This means that they (the Scuba Diver) is unable to dive without direct supervision by a PADI Instructor or DM.
What training is taught at the GUE headquarters?

;)


PADI
And to top it all off, they break standards, which sets a very poor example.
Cheers and safe diving

[JT2]

I was wondering what a GUE instructor would tell someone who approached them about becoming a diver, would they refer them to PADI, NAUI etc.., since they don't certify basic OW divers as I understand it, it seems that this would have to be the case, and wouldn't that be ironic, you first have to start off doing it wrong before you will be accepted by the folks who are going to teach you to do it right. This does not make sense to me. If they have to spend most of the DIRF class trying to get rid of your bad habits and teaching you the proper way to do skills, why not offer a class that teaches you properly from the begining, why don't they do this, especially if they are so tired of all the strokes out there, why don't they offer a class so that you never have to be a stroke? I am a proponent of DIR but this is one thing that makes no sense whatsoever.

[TCDiver1]

JT2 once bubbled...
I was wondering what a GUE instructor would tell someone who approached them about becoming a diver, would they refer them to PADI, NAUI etc.., since they don't certify basic OW divers as I understand it, it seems that this would have to be the case, and wouldn't that be ironic, you first have to start off doing it wrong before you will be accepted by the folks who are going to teach you to do it right. This does not make sense to me. If they have to spend most of the DIRF class trying to get rid of your bad habits and teaching you the proper way to do skills, why not offer a class that teaches you properly from the begining, why don't they do this, especially if they are so tired of all the strokes out there, why don't they offer a class so that you never have to be a stroke? I am a proponent of DIR but this is one thing that makes no sense whatsoever. Quite a conudrum eh JT2?

I agree with most of what GUE is trying to do also, but you would think they would have started at the entry level where they say the problems all start.

An excellent question!

[NetDoc]

DIR was developed for cave diving... extreme cave diving at that.

Having a certification program that is recognized world wide is no small feat! There are a lot of "i"s to dot and "t"s to cross. If not, I could easily start "Doin' it NetDoc" (but DIN is already taken) and certify till I was blue in the face. No other agency would recognise it, but I could do lots of certifying.

Then there is the question of liability. I am not even sure that GUE even offers any type of c-card. This would greatly reduce liability in a sue-happy world.

I am sure that there are a bazillion other things that I am not mentioning (or privy to) that have gone in to them NOT offering a basic OW class. That being said, I have heard of individual shops that offer a DIR oriented BOW class, that use NAUI as the actual certifying agency. In fact there are a few NAUI board members who are leaning towards using DIR for the tech portion of the program. Will that happen??? Time will only tell.

[Cave Diver]

gedunk once bubbled...
Ask any of the DIRF people in here how much they practice the skills they learned. Something i greatly respect about the DIR mentality is that, practicing skills, in an attempt to perfect them, is mandatory. Something every diver, OW or otherwise could learn from.

Skills of some sort are practiced on every dive.

[TCDiver1]

Cave Diver once bubbled...


Skills of some sort are practiced on every dive. Yup, that would be the case for most avid divers.

From what i see on here i would classify most people who follow GUE/DIR, avid or at least they talk avid.

I was refering to the large population of "dive a couple times a year in the carribean" divers. From my experience this is the group that causes many discussions regarding lack of skills, trained or otherwise. Sure, there will always be some LDS's or instructors who short standards but that is not the only problem

Show me any diver, regardless of how much training they have had, that does not dive often, and practice pertinent skills while doing so, and i'll show you a diver that has lost much of any skill they once had.

Unfortunately, the way things stand today, we can't make people dive if they don't want to. Free country and all you know.;)

[Cave Diver]

gedunk once bubbled...
Unfortunately, the way things stand today, we can't make people dive if they don't want to. Free country and all you know.;)

The thing I dont understand is WHY wouldnt they want to??? I dive every chance I get, even if it is only at the local mudpuddle.

[AquaTec]

you could make certifications expire

[Uncle Pug]

GUE certs do unless you anually submit logs to show that you have done the required dives.

[AquaTec]

I like them more and more all the time.

[AquaTec]

actualy so does Dive Rescue International
which a public safety divers training agency

i just got my renewal and as part of it I need to submit not only a list of all the dives I have done, but what training specific dives i have done. and what mission specific dive i was involved in, and have the last two signed off by the training/diving officer.

plus there is a little written test to complete

[ericfine50]

During my DIRF class, Andrew G. said he teaches is OW students from the start these skills. I guess this was his "baby" and made it a requirment for Tech 1, not GUE. So. there may be a GUE OW class in the future. Who knows?



Eric

[detroit diver]

There is a GUE open water class. I spoke with Andrew G. last weekend and they're just waiting for some details to be worked out before they release it. I don't know what those detail are. As Netdoc said, it takes a lot of detail work to get one of these things to go.

[xoomboy]

I've always been amazed that the mainstream dive certification agencies (PADI, NAUI) do not expire their cards or even have them come up from renewal.

I was at my LDS the other day bringing back some rental gear and gabbing with the guy at the counter. Someone came in, flashed a card from 1974 (older than me!), said he hadn't been underwater in years. He filled up his tanks (which he had kept up to date because you HAVE TO in order to be able to fill them) and left.

*shudder*, hope he's okay!

Matt

[NetDoc]

then there is a better than average chance that he was too and was just pulling your leg. I have been known to act "dumb" (well, not as dumb as UP) (and some say that it is no act!) when a youngster tries to "show" me a thing or two. Who knows, I might larn me sumthin' new, but I do get a kick out of new divers "spreading the word" about their new sport. It's healthy for them and I love it!!!

[jlargent]

Your correct GUE does not have an open water certification program. Though I've heard rumors they are working on one. I doubt any of the GUE instructors have a real preference (Org. wise) about
who they would send a new diver to. There are OW instructor from multiple agencies that are also GUE instructors.
Without recomending a certain instructor I would say find an instructor not assoicated with a dive store. You would be more likly to get an instructor that puts the new diver ahead of gear sales.

To be honest there are several dive instructors in this area that I would recommend, that do work at dive shops, however I have worked with them enough to know they put the safty of their students first. 1 is a PADI instructor, the other TDI and PADI.

One of the easiest examples of gear ahead of students is that a lot of instructors have 2 different sets of gear. The set they dive in, and then the set that matches what the dive store sells. I realize most of us have more than one set of gear but I think you understand what I'm getting at.

I do not mean to imply that all instructors from PADI, TDI, etc are bad. There are some very good instructors out there who refuse to give in to pressure from their orginizations to just produce new divers at all cost.

[xoomboy]

I don't think people necessarily need to find a non-LDS instructor to learn to dive. As it's been said hundreds of times just on this board, it's important to find the best instructor you can.

That said, my fiancee and I just recently went through OW certification (a refresher for me) with someone NOT associated with our local LDS. He's a harbormaster who also teaches (PADI) on the side.

Opinion: I think that most uncertified people don't know that it is possible to find someone unaffiliated with the LDS to learn to dive. If you were to take a general poll of the non-diving public, I would say that the majority of people would just call the dive shop and register for a class. Most wouldn't even shop around much.

Me, I'm happier that we didn't go through the shop, even though I did my original OW through them and know the guys down there and will most likely do business with them for gear purchases.

There was no pressure to buy anything at any time the way we did it. It wasn't even an issue. AND she had the luxury of one-on-one basic training for a great price, while I was able to work on my technique and get myself back up to speed.

Plus, now I have a friend that is the harbormaster :)

Matt

[TCDiver1]

Dang jlargent, are you in my head or what?

I'm independent whenever i can be but have THREE different sets of gear, two for two different LDS's i teach for from time to time and one for myself. Due to the equipment intensive nature of OW training it's pretty hard to independently teach without investing & maintaining mucho gear. LDS's know that & hold it over your head. Your right, most LDS's i'm familiar with take gear sales MUCH more seriously than instruction. Heck, with larger classes i'm forced to pay for necessary added pool time out of my own pocket because one LDS says another instructor only takes this many (not enough) hours. If i didn't have a good day job that would not be an option.

I agree with c-cards requiring some kind of renewal to remain current. As stated earlier, i think most of the problems out there with skills have to do largely with lack of diving after training. Try as they might well over 50% of the divers we certify don't dive much after certification no matter how hard we extoll the virtues of doing so. There is money to be made to help sustain the industry, by performing Q&A training for divers who are already certified. It would go a long way to solving some of the ills out there.

And for those of you who think it is evil for anyone in the scuba industry to actually make money from it, save your comments for someone who will argue with you. I won't. Cutting costs for classes is one of the things that got us to where we are today. The cheap quicky class is NOT the answer

[roakey]

gedunk once bubbled...
I agree with most of what GUE is trying to do also, but you would think they would have started at the entry level where they say the problems all start.
“Core competencies” GUE grew out of the re-training program that the WKPP had to put people through in order for them to function as a team in the WKPP. So their original thrust was cave and deco and they’re working back into OW, realizing that the sooner someone they get someone on the right track, the less work they’ll have to face later.

Not to mention that they’ll enjoy diving more and have a higher probability of staying with it.

Roak

[roakey]

xoomboy once bubbled...
Someone came in, flashed a card from 1974 (older than me!)...
So you'd have some kinda probelm with a PADI "Basic" card from, say, July 1973, boy? :) :) :)

Roak

[xoomboy]

So you'd have some kinda probelm with a PADI "Basic" card from, say, July 1973, boy?

Nah, I believe artifacts like THAT should be preserved for everyone to enjoy!

;)

Matt

[TCDiver1]

Thanks roakey!

Now i feel much younger, as in Padi "Basic" c-card, May 1980.

:) :D :jester:

[NetDoc]

we just sorta jumped in and hoped that our ascents equalled our descents. I remember laughing at a guy with a horse collar... I think we even called it "new-fangled" too!

[roakey]

xoomboy once bubbled...
Nah, I believe artifacts like THAT should be preserved for everyone to enjoy!
Touché

Roak

[TCDiver1]

Ah yes, i remember being p*ssed i had to take a class to buy air from the same local sporting goods i had been buying it from for several years with no stinkin c-card.

We are truly lucky to be alive, my how things have changed.

Yes, we had no LDS back then. Our LDS also sold jock straps and football cleats. Remember that stylish orange Voit stuff?

[JamesK]

Wow! Some of you people are old! LOL! ;) :out:

[TCDiver1]

JamesK once bubbled...
Wow! Some of you people are old! LOL! ;) :out: LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;-0

Are you sure your old enough to be an Evil right wing Republican?

:jester:

[thethumper]

I recently went through (tagged along) an OW class w/a buddy of mine for PADI. The insrtuctor had 3 students. One of which was an exchange student from Japan. Now granted there was a big language barrier, but this poor kid all throught the pool work & the check out dives (in a spring thank goodness) had the "Deer in the headlights" looks. While he did ok on several excercises, he was VERY lacking in the basic skills for scuba.

But he passed.

The instructor would look @ me while we were in the pool or the spring as to say "What am I doing wrong?" The class was only alotted 2 hours pool work on Sat & Sun, so he did take him into the pool @ Devil's Den, but it still didn't help.

Now while I'm am all for a diversity of people getting certified, I feel that if you knowingly teach/take a class where there's a major language barrier, you should refer/defer to some one who teaches/understands the same language.

Just MHO

[JamesK]

gedunk once bubbled...
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;-0

Are you sure your old enough to be an Evil right wing Republican?

:jester:

LMAO!!! Let's just say that I am a fast learner!!!!! :D

[Uncle Pug]

AquaTec once bubbled...
actualy so does Dive Rescue International
which a public safety divers training agency

...oh well... I don't even have the t-shirt any more. I still have the hat around here somewhere.... I think... hmmm...

Hey Doug, you need to come down here sometime and go diving with me... I think we would have a blast... too much in common not to. :D

[AquaTec]

that might be fun, I am comming down to Seattle next weekend to see my brothers new baby, not sure if we will have time to do a dive then. but soon, I would like that.

Maybe you can give me some pointer prior to my DIRF class =-)

[scubatexastony]

I thought my card was old...


So you'd have some kinda probelm with a PADI "Basic" card from, say, July 1973, boy?
but it does say "Scuba Diver" 9/73

and UP, some day I'd love to sit in that den and watch a sunset, after a good day o' dive with ya' ;)

tony

[Uncle Pug]

scubatexastony once bubbled...
UP, some day I'd love to sit in that den and watch a sunset, after a good day o' dive with ya'
Com'on up Tony! :D