GUE, DIR, and Philosophy part II

After spending many hours with the "philosopher" of GUE and DIR, and discussing said organization, "enlightenment" in understanding GUE and their direction has been attained (instead of personal opinion). The path to understanding GUE has been difficult, with many hours spent around instructors, members, and heads of the organization.
You guys from the PNW have made some valid points that are backed by GUE. You all don't have anyone else that is doing any form of deeper stuff in your viscinity (safely) that gets publicity. The training is earth-shattering compared to how you guys were taught, which explains a lot of why you are such fervert practicioners and advocates for DIR. This was not clear to me while diving there as I was based in Florida overhead diving practices. While discussing Alaska (and other PNW) diving with one of the top guys, he informed me why the PNW was such a great target and Georgitsis was developing a following in the area. The other key areas to target are mostly hotspots for wreck diving (and Europe).
What it boils down to is making people feel they are part of something bigger and giving them someone to follow. Most people need someone to guide them, and GUE is doing a great job of capitalizing by giving the gung ho divers some gung ho figures to sit around and discuss any time they can't get to the water and act like they were doing the dives the other figures are doing regularly.
GUE is also training the next set of "support" divers, volunteers who will give their time and money to allow a few people to accomplish their dreams. This is a win-win situation because the support guys get to provide assistance to the "big guys" and be a part of a team that breaks world records. The "big guys" get elevated to supreme status due to this following, and they deserve every bit of it.
GUE and DIR is Platonic in basis. There are 3 classes of people: leaders, followers, and guardians. Students make up the followers, the Guardians are the instructors, and the leaders offer tidbits of wisdom and do big "fun" stuff. The wise followers may be elevated to Guardian status with hard work and diligence. The Guardian may be elevated to leader through wisdom. For the good of the organization, the followers can be taught, but their learning must be limited so they don't rise out of ranks and overthrow the leaders.
I am so happy that I finally understand the philosophy of an organization that does such wonderful stuff. I enjoyed what I have learned from the GUE guys, but it is very limited in it's nature.
Cheers,


DIR on request, but only on request.

Nice job of helping us understand GUE.

the idea is geniuss. create a dive club/training agency/ gear sales organization. eveyting well funded, organized, and well publicised

make it elitest so that there is pride in belonging, creat that pride in belonging by hammering on anyone who doesn;t belong. don't let anyone belong unless they by your gear and take the training from you.

All that crap aside I must say i do like the club idea, I would be happy to be a support diver on the Britanic 98 dive team or i might even sell my soul to GUE if it meant i could be a bottom diver on the team. TDI or IANTD could take some lessons from them in the dive club idea.

there are people here in the PNW that are doing some great tech diving and doing it right, non GUE, but we just don't make a big stink about it. especialy here on this board.

so tell us about what you found out about DIR

Divesherpa once bubbled...
There are 3 classes of people: leaders, followers, and guardians. Students make up the followers, the Guardians are the instructors, and the leaders offer tidbits of wisdom and do big "fun" stuff. The wise followers may be elevated to Guardian status with hard work and diligence. The Guardian may be elevated to leader through wisdom. For the good of the organization, the followers can be taught, but their learning must be limited so they don't rise out of ranks and overthrow the leaders.

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I am sincerely hoping you didn't mean to describe it in quite as cult-like terms as are used here.

It is not meant to be cult like at all, King Kong. This is how it was described to me from one of the heads. Most organizations that function properly are organized in a similar manner. Consider your very own government. The trend was originally established by Plato following Socratic principles and carrying them over to government and other organizations. Ever heard of Alexander the Great? George W. Bush?
Same philosophical ideals, different message. It is a wonderful system. I wish I had thought of it first.

Though it may be run that way, I think you are missing the big point. Properly trained divers!
PADI, TDI, etc take a none diver throw them in a pool for a couple of hours, then throw them in the open water 4 times and tell them they are ready.
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified? I've seen a few but these were the extreme ones that couldn't even put their head under water, the rest got a C-card, didn't matter if they could pass skills or not. There are instructors out there that are the exception to this. The problem starts at the top though with the Certifying agency pushing marketing and sales vs compatent and safe divers.

Just my 2c's

jlargent once bubbled...
Though it may be run that way, I think you are missing the big point. Properly trained divers!
PADI, TDI, etc take a none diver throw them in a pool for a couple of hours, then throw them in the open water 4 times and tell them they are ready.
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified? I've seen a few but these were the extreme ones that couldn't even put their head under water, the rest got a C-card, didn't matter if they could pass skills or not. There are instructors out there that are the exception to this. The problem starts at the top though with the Certifying agency pushing marketing and sales vs compatent and safe divers.

Just my 2c's

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No system is perfect, the imperfections exist due to human nature.

No training agency i am aware of promotes certifying OW students who don't master established skills or knowledge. The human factor enters with instructors who allow this to happen & therefore are not doing what they were trained to do.

Yes, most agencies train their instructors very well. If you don't believe me go watch an IDC or IE some weekend to view the beatin that takes place. Three out of six failed the IE i was in.

Oh and where is the students responsibility in all this. Is the student responsible for keeping the skills they did learn up to par?
The short answer is .... yes, the student is responsible too.

Ask any of the DIRF people in here how much they practice the skills they learned. Something i greatly respect about the DIR mentality is that, practicing skills, in an attempt to perfect them, is mandatory. Something every diver, OW or otherwise could learn from.

I agree that the winds may be blowin toward a more DIR-esk philosophy for training, which i don't think is a bad thing. But the existing training systems are far from broken. Instructors who don't teach what they are suppose to & students who let their skills slip, are broken.

I won't disagree that the point of GUE is to produce properly trained divers, but the argument you have made is...respectfully...a poor one in my opinion.

As you state, the point of GUE is to produce properly trained divers:

jlargent once bubbled...
Though it may be run that way, I think you are missing the big point. Properly trained divers!

Click to expand...

This is the big point because, as you say:

jlargent once bubbled...
PADI, TDI, etc take a none diver throw them in a pool for a couple of hours, then throw them in the open water 4 times and tell them they are ready.
When was the last time you saw someone take one of these classes and not get certified?

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If the primary problem is organizations like PADI and their card-happy instructors and GUE is focused on the solution: properly trained divers - for the logic of your argument to hold up you would have to conclude that GUE offers a competing, entry-level certification like PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc

But they don't. Open Water Cert and 20-25 (correct me if I am wrong) is a requirement for Fundamentals.

Again...not DIR bashing...would gladly take the class and learn more about the system...just a weak argument.

Respectfully,
Matt

as the new-comer it is incumbent to point out how lacking the old-timers must be. I am sure that PADI and NAUI, et al, used some of the same arguments about "failed teaching methods" etc when they were first organized. The real proof will be 40 years hence when we will see how long the "standards" will have lasted through a generation or two of instructors.

In my most humble (and usually flawed) opinion, the agency does not matter near as much as the individual instructor in ANY instructional endeavor. While I do not accept students just to humiliate them with failure, I have still "failed" (not certified) half as many students as I have passed. No, I am not just pulling "data" out of my butt nor am I speculating or claiming that just because I haven’t heard it, it must be so. Those are just facts!!! NO ONE has the corner on quality instructors. I take each and every one of those "failed" students personally, and am still trying to work with them to improve their skills so that they too, may be certified divers. Calling other agencies or un-named instructors "C-card happy" is reckless and borders on the insincere!

Many times "the powers that be" will try to keep hold onto their little slice of control... is this happening with DIR??? Well, I have no first hand knowledge, but I have NO REASON to discount what Divesherpa has posted. He seems a reasonable and honest person and what he has proffered is purported to come from their hierarchy. I will consider him guiltless until some tangible proof otherwise is submitted.

Couldn't agree more Pete. The individual instructor makes all the diff. in the world. Although i can't say i've failed as many as i have passed, a good many students have not had the "right stuff" to meet the minimum standards.

I get tired of people who have not walked the walk, judging the people who walk the walk everyday.

By the way, you need to lose the elf look you got going in your pic! I was a scout years ago & that would have scared the cr*p out of me!:tease: