DIR and NE Wreck Diving

[taat2d]

I have a question... From all I've been readingf about DIR it seems like it's set up primarily for cave diving. what types of mods are made if mosrt of your diving is in wreck diving in the north east? Sorry if this was already discussed. I'm trying to set up my gear more streamlined and any help will be appreciated.
Thanx
Joey

[Divesherpa]

Great Question

Where do you put the crow bar?
Where do you put the lobsters for post dive deco dinner?

[Northeastwrecks]

I use slightly larger bolt snaps to accommodate heavy gloves.

Other than that, nothing immediately comes to mind. Then again, I don't dive in caves.

[taat2d]

SO you dive DIR? DO you need a 7' primary hose, or is that just for passing yor rig thru a tight squeeze in a cave?

[JamesK]

taat2d once bubbled...
SO you dive DIR? DO you need a 7' primary hose, or is that just for passing yor rig thru a tight squeeze in a cave?

**Keep in mund, I am a cave diver, and not a wreck diver**

Anyway, I would say keep the 7 foot hose. If you are doing wreck penetration, the "tunnels" in the wreck can be just as small as the restrictions in a cave. The seven foo hose also helps a lot in o/w type air sharing as it makes it easier for each diver to control their own bouyancy without being in each others face.

[nickjb]

I'm not DIR but i do use a 7ft primary. Even in open water this makes any air sharing far simpler and might allow your buddy a chance to fix the problem that caused the OOA.

[ericfine50]

I use larger Bolt Snaps when diving up here in MA. I still use the 7 foot hose in cold water. The rig is the same as if I was in a cave.

Eric

[detroit diver]

taat2d once bubbled...
I have a question... From all I've been readingf about DIR it seems like it's set up primarily for cave diving. what types of mods are made if mosrt of your diving is in wreck diving in the north east? Sorry if this was already discussed. I'm trying to set up my gear more streamlined and any help will be appreciated.
Thanx
Joey

Joey,

From recreational diving to wreck diving to cave diving-you need not modify your rig at all. That's the simplicity behind DIR-get used to your rig and dive it whereever you're trained. And your buddy's got the same rig and mindset. Everyone's on the same page.

[Wendy]

taat2d once bubbled...
SO you dive DIR? DO you need a 7' primary hose, or is that just for passing yor rig thru a tight squeeze in a cave?

The 7' hose is used for OOA situations because sometimes divers have to follow one right after the other to get thru some areas of the cave. I could see how the same situation could occur in a wreck that has narrow passage ways.

[taat2d]

Thanx all for your input.

[Lost Yooper]

I don't cave dive, just wrecks, ice, and recreational (non everhead stuff). Other than switching to a single tank once in a great while, I use the same configuration all the time.

Mike

[tombiowami]

I remember a post a while back from GI saying he put wreck diving tools in a canister similar to one they were using for soil samples. Then carried like a stage bottle clipped off. I would guess PVC pipe would work fine.

Tommy

[roakey]

One BIG problem I see with DIR in the NE wreck scene is that many of the boat captains and crew are OPENLY hostile to DIR.

Up to and including refusing to accept GUE certifications.

The Seeker comes to mind. Hostile to DIR and the highest body count around. Simply coincidence?

Roak

[thethumper]

Lost Yooper once bubbled...
I don't cave dive, just wrecks, ice, and recreational (non everhead stuff). Other than switching to a single tank once in a great while, I use the same configuration all the time.

Mike

Ummm....Isn't ice diving considered "overhead" ?

[Divesherpa]

I haven't met anyone who disliked DIR, they simply dislike the holier than thou attitude lots of DIR guys have. (They don't like some of the personal preference guys either)
GUE certs are a different story. That's why I have GUE and IANTD and TDI. Nobody can complain when you give them what they ask for.

[Lost Yooper]

I was referring to the recreational diving I do as being non overhead/non deco diving I do. You know, I don't like the whole "recreational diving" phrase. I view all my diving as being recreational, regardless of whether I'm in a wreck, under the ice, or diving a reef in the tropics. It's all recreational to me, it's just that sometimes I bring more stuff with me and stay longer underwater on some dives ;).

:)

Mike

[Genesis]

so don't think it doesn't happen, 'cause it most certainly does.....

Probably more likely to happen if the boat is owned by a LDS that doesn't sell Hogarthian-style kit.

[King Kong Matt]

roakey once bubbled...
One BIG problem I see with DIR in the NE wreck scene is that many of the boat captains and crew are OPENLY hostile to DIR.



Is that really true? Would you really categorize it as many, or is it just a few isolated boats?


roakey once bubbled...
Up to and including refusing to accept GUE certifications.



Again, are we just talking about Crowell/Seeker, or are we talking about *lots* of boats in the NE.


roakey once bubbled...
The Seeker comes to mind. Hostile to DIR and the highest body count around. Simply coincidence?


I don't definitively know one way or the other so I've got no agenda...but looking at some of the fatalities aboard the Seeker...a lot of them seem like they could have occurred off any NE boat. The rash in 98 on the Doria...most of them experienced Doria divers.

I'm just interested...I've seen Seeker bashing before and I would just like to understand what the real scoop is behind all of it.

BTW, just to eliminate one source of confusion...when I (and I would assume most people who live near me) refer to the NE, we are referring everything north of Philly/South Jersey. In short, I'm really referring to the NY/NJ boats...

[padiscubapro]

I have seen the hostility on several boats, its not really the gear set up per se (Many do not like the long hose around the neck, but wouldn't necessarily stop someone from diving cause of it) , its more the attitude of many DIR divers (better than God attitude)..

The feeling I get is that the captains don't want GUE divers (or divers without the NE experience for the dive planned form any agency..) because many of them are too dependent on buddies. I am not implying that all GUE divers are either poor or great divers, just that the buddy system is so ingrained that I have personally seen problems when they got seperated from their buddies and had no confidence to be on their own. Obviously there are many DIR divers that don't have this problem, but the absolute buddy methodology (which even padi pushes) can cause some panic when an unprepared person is now alone.

I have been on boats were divers with instructor cards were NOT ALLOWED to dive because they couldn't produce a log book showing local experience. In one case I had to take responsibility for this instructor and be his buddy so he could dive..

The buddy system is all well and good but in our waters you WILL get seperated (not on every dive).. All you need on many sites is an errant fin kick and there goes the viz, or more likely 1 diver PAUSES to look in a hole and the other diver doesn't realize it for less than a minute max.. with 5-10 ft of viz common (we are estatic when we get 20ft).. They are now buddyless..

The only boat I can think of that is totally open to DIR (and some of the crew promote it) is the Wahoo and since he has done so this has turned off many other divers and he has lost business.

[NJ Wreck Finder]

There are plenty of DIR divers in the Northeast. And even more of use that are DIB (better than we used to). The boat captains, Danny included, have no problem with DIR, people who will only dive with a buddy, long hoses, etc. I have been diving off Danny's boat many times, and never once has he ever made a comment about my Hogarthain rig. I have been on his boat when a fully DIR couple were diving, right down to the pre dive drills. He only observed, and let them do as they pleased. I think most of the NE captains, myself included, have no problem with people diving DIR. The problems arise when that DIR person starts knocking other peoples gear on the boat, or their diving styles. I don't care what gear you dive, the last thing you want is a doubt in the the back of your mind when you are more than 100' down and deep inside a shipwreck during a silt out. (not from kicking it up do to poor bouyancy either, but from a current change). One of the good things about DIR is that it gives the user a certain confidence, sometime too much confidence, but that is another topic.

dive safe,

d

[roakey]

Probably appropriate to post this here while we're talking Northeast DIR:

http://northeastdir.com/

Roak

[padiscubapro]

NJ Wreck Finder once bubbled...
There are plenty of DIR divers in the Northeast. And even more of use that are DIB (better than we used to). The boat captains, Danny included, have no problem with DIR, people who will only dive with a buddy, long hoses, etc. I have been diving off Danny's boat many times, and never once has he ever made a comment about my Hogarthain rig. I have been on his boat when a fully DIR couple were diving, right down to the pre dive drills. He only observed, and let them do as they pleased. I think most of the NE captains, myself included, have no problem with people diving DIR. The problems arise when that DIR person starts knocking other peoples gear on the boat, or their diving styles. I don't care what gear you dive, the last thing you want is a doubt in the the back of your mind when you are more than 100' down and deep inside a shipwreck during a silt out. (not from kicking it up do to poor bouyancy either, but from a current change). One of the good things about DIR is that it gives the user a certain confidence, sometime too much confidence, but that is another topic.

dive safe,

d

I couldn't have said it better. Its all in the attitude.. Too many DIR divers remind me of Jenhova witnesses (no insult intended) trying to convert everyone to what they see is the only truth and thats not good for repeat business if a diver is feeling pressured by others....
I am not DIR, I rig my OC gear pretty much as I did when I got my cave training back in '92. I am very confortable with it and have never had any problems..
I show all my students the various ways gear can be rigged (including the way DIR people rig it).. I let them choose how they feel they are most confortable (both TDI and ANDI allow rigging freedom, the PADI TEC REC program which I do not teach wants gear rigged a specific way).

I personally don't like the light canister at my waist, I will not wrap a long hose around my neck, and I want ONE quick release (helps me get in and out of gear easier and even if it did break so what it wouldn't cause any problems)
..

[King Kong Matt]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
I will not wrap a long hose around my neck

Just interested. Why do you say that? I have no real opinion of DIR, so I'm not trolling.

I'm just wondering what specific element of NE wreck diving has led you to that configuration choice.

Thx,
Matt

[ericfine50]

Padiscubapro,
Sorry to say, but the hose goes across the chest and you are not wrapping it around your neck like a knot. Why is this a sticking point with so many people?

Eric

[AquaTec]

I dive it tied in a knot around my neck and i do like it


lets hear your version, with it across your chest

[techdiver2us]

roakey once bubbled...
One BIG problem I see with DIR in the NE wreck scene is that many of the boat captains and crew are OPENLY hostile to DIR.

Up to and including refusing to accept GUE certifications.

The Seeker comes to mind. Hostile to DIR and the highest body count around. Simply coincidence?

Roak I think that's a bit harsh.

[diverberr]

AquaTec once bubbled...
I dive it tied in a knot around my neck and i do like it


lets hear your version, with it across your chest


I dive it across my chest also. From my right hand reg, under both arms across my chest, up between my neck and my manifold, and over my shoulder and into my mouth. A seven footer is the perfect length for this. I use a clip and o-ring to secure it to a d-ring. My backup reg is on surgical tubing around my neck.

[AquaTec]

diverberr once bubbled...



I dive it across my chest also. From my right hand reg, under both arms across my chest, up between my neck and my manifold, and over my shoulder and into my mouth. A seven footer is the perfect length for this. I use a clip and o-ring to secure it to a d-ring. My backup reg is on surgical tubing around my neck.

I gues I missunderstood your discription.
You are diving the Hogarthian meathod.....me too

I tend to run it down behind my bladder under my light canister and make up the left side of my chest around my neck and into my mouth from the right side. I too use a 7' hose

[padiscubapro]

ericfine50 once bubbled...
Padiscubapro,
Sorry to say, but the hose goes across the chest and you are not wrapping it around your neck like a knot. Why is this a sticking point with so many people?

Eric

I guess its a matter of symantics.. Ok its not fully around a persons neck...

The way I wear it its bungied onto the side of my tank (I guess you'll call me stuffer) and its sits like a normal octo (and highly visable), so when I'm with students I already can have it in my hand ready to hand off when they are doing skills.. I inherently know where it is (It always sits in the same place so I can easily grab it without looking) and I prefer to always dive the same gear config (other than accessories)so there is no thinking in a case of an emergency.. its all automatic.. with a student I don't want to have to switch to my " backup" and prepare the long hose.. I also like the way my poseidon cyclon feels coming off the right post.

I found the canister light on the waist a pain in the ass.. I tried it and didn't like it at all.. I will admit with a small canister like the new Sartek 9ah canisters it isn't as annoying, it was totally horrible with my 14ah diverite MLS (I did like the original butt mounted lights the best, I was sorry I Upgraded)..
I tried the "around the neck" and didn't like it either.

I have nothing against DIR rigging its just not for me, I believe a person should experiment in what feels best and what works for them in their diving situations.

A have had DIR people attack my rigging even by people who in my opinion are newbies or "internet" divers...
I do have a few drings attached to my back tanks.. They are used on occasion.. I can get to them an I never use metal to metal connections on anything that can get snapped to me.. When I'm doing some digging or working on something it makes a great place to put things so they are out of your way and still accessable.. Nowadays, I don't dive OC that much.. So most of these point are moot anyway since diving a CCR is definately not DIR. As an experinced CCR diver I have more options available to me than I would ever have diving OC.

[Divesherpa]

techdiver2us once bubbled...
I think that's a bit harsh.

That's what happens when you don't actually dive, just read about it on the internet.
Opinions are like, well, we know what they are like.


Cheers and non keyboard diving

[diverberr]

padiscubapro once bubbled...


I guess its a matter of symantics.. Ok its not fully around a persons neck...

The way I wear it its bungied onto the side of my tank (I guess you'll call me stuffer) and its sits like a normal octo (and highly visable), so when I'm with students I already can have it in my hand ready to hand off when they are doing skills.. I inherently know where it is (It always sits in the same place so I can easily grab it without looking) and I prefer to always dive the same gear config (other than accessories)so there is no thinking in a case of an emergency.. its all automatic.. with a student I don't want to have to switch to my " backup" and prepare the long hose.. I also like the way my poseidon cyclon feels coming off the right post.

I do have a few drings attached to my back tanks.. They are used on occasion.. I can get to them an I never use metal to metal connections on anything that can get snapped to me.. When I'm doing some digging or working on something it makes a great place to put things so they are out of your way and still accessable..

I also used to wear my long hose bungied to my doubles, but changed after I dove with a friend who I hadn't seen in several years. He dove his long hose around the chest. I tried it, and found it suited me better.

As a wreck diver, I'm always looking for a better way to stow wreck reels, my Jersey reel, liftbags, tools, etc. I found that once I started wearing my long hose around my neck, I could bungie or clip most of this gear to my doubles, where it's out of the way, instead of causing clutter in front of me. (And yes, I can reach all the gear I have attached to my doubles.)

Also, from the same friend, I picked up my current way of mounting my argon bottle. It is hose clamped across the back of my isolation manifold. Again, it's completely out of the way, and I can still reach all my valves in the event of a failure.

See you on the bottom,
Al.

:cheers:

[roakey]

Divesherpa once bubbled...
That's what happens when you don't actually dive, just read about it on the internet.

Opinions are like, well, we know what they are like.
In that case free to state your opinion over on DIR/Quest.

Roak

[Divesherpa]

No, thanks.
I would rather communicate with individuals who have opinions based on experiences other than only DIR.
They have some great points, but I'm not into joining the "club".
I'd rather be diving and learning than reading and typing all the time.

Cheers and safe typing

[Divesherpa]

Hey Roak,
Your attempt to discredit this board is noticed by others as well.

Cheers

[roakey]

I'll take your two responses to mean "No, I won't"

Descredit this board? This is the best board around!

Roak