Question: If one were to choose the DIR configuration as their setup for openwater, where would the dive flag/line be attached?
In my opinion and from the research I've done, it makes sense to me to adopt a DIR configuration for the diving I'll be doing (abandoned pots/line, netting, stuck anchors, stuff to get tangled in, etc.).
The pictures I've seen, and the discussions I've read are geared mostly toward cave and wreck diving, where you wouldn't necessarily have a flag on your actual person.
So where should I attach the flag? I found one perspective saying to clip it onto the crotch strap D-ring, but this doesn't sit right with me?
Thanks,
Matt
Wendy
September 27th, 2002, 02:48 PM
The dive flag shouldn't be attached to you. I have mine attached to a reel and I just guide it with my hand by the line (doing the 'ok' around the line with my fingers so I'm not holding the line and the flag can still go up and down with the waves on the surface).
xoomboy
September 27th, 2002, 02:49 PM
So you just put the reel in the general area and hang onto it while you're working or doing something?
what if you need both hands for something?
Spectre
September 27th, 2002, 03:16 PM
Never attach your flag to your person...
If I need both hands for something, I either hand the flag off to my buddy [and don't volunteer to take it back :)], or wedge it under a rock.
xoomboy
September 27th, 2002, 03:19 PM
Does carrying it on one of those wound spool-thingies with your arm through the hoop count as "attached"?
Just wondering, because that seems to be what a lot of the divers around here do, from what I've observed.
Matt
King Kong Matt
September 27th, 2002, 03:21 PM
I would really urge you not to attach your flag to your person.
The risk just isn't worth it. Boats regularly seem to disregard the flag law and the mandatory distance they must put between themselves and the flag. If a boat, on purpose or on accident, happens to run over the flag and the line catches on...whatever...you do not want to be dragged out to sea or faced with the task of trying to release yourself from the line while being dragged at that speed with that kind of pressure on the line.
If I need both my hands, I typically give the flag to a buddy, or secure the line under a rock if near the bottom, or (in no current), simply let it hang free for a couple of seconds...
Matt
Spectre
September 27th, 2002, 03:28 PM
xoomboy once bubbled...
Does carrying it on one of those wound spool-thingies with your arm through the hoop count as "attached"?
Do you want my official answer, or my "don't listen to me, I'm a moron" answer?
My official answer... yes, that counts as attached.
I'm not going to state my unofficial answer...
KK Matt stated...
or (in no current), simply let it hang free for a couple of seconds...
With the "wound spool-thingies", they float. Somewhere in the NELD forum therre is a thread where someone decided to keep score on who lost who's flag... Most of those involved an underwater comment of "S**T THOSE THINGS FLOAT!"...
King Kong Matt
September 27th, 2002, 03:34 PM
Every conceivable risk that you can think of should always be weighed against the obvious...
A flag is a 30 dollar easily replaceable item that can be purchased at any and every LDS I have ever been to in New England.
In that light...any risk with the flag is too much of a risk.
IMHO,
Matt
Iguana Don
September 27th, 2002, 03:37 PM
You've seen somebody jerked through the water by a jet ski or even worse a boat.
I saw one jerked through the water by a jet ski.
All jet skiiers must die!
"future jet skiier serial killer"
thethumper
September 27th, 2002, 03:59 PM
While I whole heartedly agree..... Has anyone ever considered using the Breakaway oring/snap?
AquaTec
September 27th, 2002, 04:54 PM
I think in the DIR manual it states;
atach a flag with a break away o-ring atached to a zip tie, atached to a 1" stainless bolt snap.
atach the bolt snap to your reel line
at all times the reel should be floating right next to you on your left side, as you are constantly aware of your surrounding you will not need to hold onto it.
do not let it hang on your right side as nothing can go there, that space is strictly resereved for a scooter [if you ever get one]
when it comes time to move the reel [with flag attached] both team members should aproach the flag in a horizontal possision and face each other, each buddy gripping the real simotaniuosly with their left hand, procceds to the next spot where you would like to view something or use both hands, at all time facing each other so as not to loose contact with the flag or your buddy.
One buddy of course will be required to back fin the whole time
please practice this technique until perfected prior to signing up for the class, so that the class can just consintrate on critequing you.
If you are lucky enough to pass this skill which of course only the true gods of diving do, then you will be allowed to move onto the next skill, attaching a game bag and using a spear with no mask on while maintaining perfect horizontal boyancy
Sorry I couldn't help it, someone actualy looking for a DIR method of attaching a flag. heaven forbid they should think for themselves, or get caught doing it wrong
roakey
September 27th, 2002, 04:58 PM
We need to get together with the Hobie folks who hate PWCs as much as we do:
I reckon you could jury rig a wire-guided Mk 48 torpedo to one of those magnum body Gavin scooters... question is, what's the DIR placement of the guidance system on the scooter...
jeffsterinsf
September 27th, 2002, 05:16 PM
bengiddins once bubbled...
I reckon you could jury rig a wire-guided Mk 48 torpedo to one of those magnum body Gavin scooters... question is, what's the DIR placement of the guidance system on the scooter...
I seem to remember seeing a propulsion device you could attach to your tanks in the LeisurePro catalog I just threw out. Now, I know that isn't DIR, nor is hydrox (SFAIK), but couldn't you rig the two together with a little wire along with the dive computer and the piezo-electric ignitor from the cigarette lighter you also abandonded, and get a real DIR rig there? Tie it to the flag, and when the prop snags the line...
roakey
September 27th, 2002, 05:20 PM
12ga bang stick with a rubber sabot. All you need is to hull the boat and let it sink elsewhere...
Roak
King Kong Matt
September 27th, 2002, 05:21 PM
AquaTec once bubbled...
Sorry I couldn't help it, someone actualy looking for a DIR method of attaching a flag. heaven forbid they should think for themselves, or get caught doing it wrong
He was just asking a question.
Let's not assume that he was going to slavishly adhere to whatever was written in the DIR manual. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was asking for an informed opinion that he would weigh against other informed opinions, ultimately making the best choice for him.
Other than that, I thought your post was hysterical... :)
Matt
AquaTec
September 27th, 2002, 05:26 PM
no offence to the original post and i withdraw any implication.
I agree that it is good to ask for ideas etc.
I just found it funny that there might be a DIR method of doing it.
I couldn't help it
Bob3
September 28th, 2002, 01:18 PM
... asking for an informed opinion ...
Like snorkels, DIR divers don't like flags because you don't need one in a cave. ;)
[sorry, couldn't resist]
I use one of these critters when I'm in a high traffic area: http://www.carterbag.com/personalfloat.html
Shoot the sucker when you need it, nothing dragging around to get to get fouled or used as a target by those jet ski idiots or fishermen that want to pull you up so they can "see what was on the other end". (been there).
King Kong Matt
September 28th, 2002, 01:52 PM
In his profile, he states that he is from Mass.
If he is diving in MA (an assumption...please correct if need be), then it would be wise to observe local dive flag laws, which are mandatory.
Bob3
September 28th, 2002, 05:08 PM
Massachusetts Dive Flag Law The following paragraph is taken verbatim from Mass. General laws, public ways and works 90B 13A:
"Every Scuba diver or group of scuba divers while swimming on or under the surface of the waters of the Commonwealth shall display for each diver or group of divers as a warning device to boat operators, a diver's flag, so called, constructed of rigidly supported material at least 12" by 15" in area of red backgroud with a diagonal stripe.
Such diver's flag shall be displayed on a boat or surface float and shall extend a minimum distance of three feet from the surface of the water.
A boat operator within sight of a diver's flag shall proceed with caution and within 100' of such flag shall proceed at a speed not to exceed three-mph".
Looks like the flag size would have to be increased, otherwise it would seem to qualify. There's nothing saying that your "surface float" needs to remain at/on the surface, or the flag has to be ABOVE the surface. Just "From" the surface.
:mean:
Heck, it dang near looks like you can even leave the sucker on the shore, there's no saying how close you have to surface to it.
The law also reads that's its OK for boaters to run you over, as long as they're not going over 3 mph. :eek:
King Kong Matt
September 28th, 2002, 06:59 PM
Bob3 once bubbled...
Looks like the flag size would have to be increased, otherwise it would seem to qualify. There's nothing saying that your "surface float" needs to remain at/on the surface, or the flag has to be ABOVE the surface. Just "From" the surface.
A dive flag left on shore, not deployed, or deployed under water all fail to pass the critical test of that first statement...
Every Scuba diver or group of scuba divers while swimming on or under the surface of the waters of the Commonwealth shall display...as a warning device . None of the options you have described could reasonably be described as a "warning display" of nearby divers.
Bob3 once bubbled...
The law also reads that's its OK for boaters to run you over, as long as they're not going over 3 mph. :eek:
It doesn't say any such thing at all.
Bob3
September 29th, 2002, 01:04 PM
It doesn't say any such thing at all.
It sure does:
"...within 100' of such flag shall proceed at a speed not to exceed three-mph".
No minimum distance = OK to run right over the top of you.
If there IS a minimum distance required, show me where to find it, eh?
Suggest you check with your local warden if you doubt this, same with flag displayed on shore.
Look at Wisconsin's law:
" is unlawful ... For any boat or water skier to operate or approach closer than 100 feet to any skin diver's flag or any swimmer unless the boat is part of the skin diving operation or is accompanying the swimmer. "
Complete WI boating regs: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/enforcement/safety/boatreg.htm
Iguana Don
September 29th, 2002, 01:30 PM
LAWS Rocket, you could travel submerged until you get within range, pop up, shoot and go back down and nobody would ever know.
http://hometown.aol.com/bishop042/Rocket.html
King Kong Matt
September 29th, 2002, 03:33 PM
Bob3 once bubbled...
No minimum distance = OK to run right over the top of you.
By your logic, the law governing assault with a deadly weapon allows murder.
"Members of the jury...I will refer to the text of the law in which it states that it is illegal to hit someone over the head with a gun. Do you, the members of the jury, see where pulling the trigger of the gun and killing a person is prohibited in the text of the law? Neither do I."
If every interaction in society were governed by one and only one law than I would agree that it would be logical to conclude that whatever is not specifically forbidden is allowed. That, however, is simply not the case. That a dive flag law does not specifically state that a boater can't hit a diver provides no legal or logical reason to conclude that a boater who hits a diver won't be charged with manslaughter, negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, murder...and the list goes on.
xoomboy
September 30th, 2002, 08:43 AM
AquaTec once bubbled...
no offence to the original post and i withdraw any implication.
I agree that it is good to ask for ideas etc.
I just found it funny that there might be a DIR method of doing it.
I couldn't help it
Good laughs, AquaTec, no worries :)
It must be said, though, that I am perfectly able to think for myself, which is why I asked the question. People that can't think don't ask, they just do what they're told.
Personally, I feel that the line should NOT be attached to oneself in any manner, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to be fumbling around with it every time I move -- especially if I'm just floating along in 60 ft of water, 40 ft above the bottom.
The simpleness of the rig leads me to believe that you're supposed to carry it by hand, or somehow mount it in a breakaway fashion.
