This is kinda embarrassing but I've done a search and couldn't find the answer. OK, here goes.
Why are tank O rings two bucks a piece at the LDS? Are they special SCUBA O rings? My guess is they aren't special so if I went to my hardware store could I pick up an O ring for, like, 50 cents?
(Not the tank body O ring but the little one that the first stage seats in)
Thanks!
Dave
Packhorse
August 24th, 2006, 03:15 AM
O2/nitrox ready maybe?
Sasquatch
August 24th, 2006, 03:19 AM
Geez, good point...but welding rigs and other industrial gas containers would be under the same umbrella. And they probably are...but do they use special O rings? Not that I recall.
Packhorse
August 24th, 2006, 03:34 AM
O2 tanks yes other gases probably not.
My LDS charges $1 per O ring and that is NZ$1 so US65 cents.
O2 ready O rings are probably more.
If your LDS is charging $2 they are probably trying to make up for all the money they loose on air fills.
Azza
August 24th, 2006, 05:14 AM
O2 tanks yes other gases probably not.
My LDS charges $1 per O ring and that is NZ$1 so US65 cents.
O2 ready O rings are probably more.
If your LDS is charging $2 they are probably trying to make up for all the money they loose on air fills.
Go to Blackwood Paykels. They sell em for around 4c each. No need to pay a dollar.
Any engineering shop should have them cheap as chips.
300bar
August 24th, 2006, 06:14 AM
2$ for 1 O-ring your LDS is meking his fortune on O-rings.:D
But yes there is a difference between scuba O-rings and those
from the hardware store.
Scuba O-rings are much stronger.Try the soft hardware ones and
you will see they won't last very long.Most will go with a bang on
the first use
cancun mark
August 24th, 2006, 07:30 AM
just make sure you know what you are buying
but yes they cost a couple of cents each and the dive stores sell them for much much more.
Luis H
August 24th, 2006, 08:52 AM
From McMaster-Carr you can buy Buna-N (nitrile) O-rings (with a Durometer of A70) in a bag of 100 for $2.89. Buna-N O-rings is the most common O-ring for air service.
They also have the same size O-rings in Viton, Silicon, and EPDM ($10.06 for 100, $10.27 for 100, and $7.53 for 100, respectively). I can’t remember what is recommended for O2 service.
The Durometer on all the above mention O-rings is A70 except for Viton is A75.
I am not positive, but I believe that my local hardware store carries Buna-N, A70 Durometer O-rings (the same as my LDS).
But, I agree with Cancun Mark, you need to make sure you know what you are buying.
Leadking
August 24th, 2006, 09:05 AM
What kind of o-rings? Viton, polyurethane, EPDM, Buna-N? What Durometer?
Yes o-rings at a dive store are more expensive than a bulk purchase at an o-ring supplier. Same is true when you want one screw at a hardware store. Keeping inventory, answering questions, having a RETAIL storefront, liability insurance-these things add up. A dive store does some things at below cost and need to make it up elsewhere. It is a blend of margins, some low and some high that allows a full service dive store to exist. Take away the extra $1.50 here and it will have to go somewhere else. My two cents worth.
Lee
www.seapearls.com
P.S. I cannot buy quality o-rings for four cents each and I buy thousands.
As a safety note Thermo valves require 90 durometer.
pescador775
August 24th, 2006, 09:13 AM
Generally, the hardware store, soft, 70 duro, O rings are fine for SCUBA, except for oxygen service. Personally, I would use a 90 duro for the face ring on the valve. These hard O rings are not more expensive but may be harder to find. The pricing on O rings is peculiar and price gouging on small lots is common. A common Buna N, Nitrile O ring is probably worth about a nickel at retail, viton a few cents more.
Luis H
August 24th, 2006, 09:26 AM
Yes o-rings at a dive store are more expensive than a bulk purchase at an o-ring supplier. Same is true when you want one screw at a hardware store. Keeping inventory, answering questions, having a RETAIL storefront, liability insurance-these things add up. A dive store does some things at below cost and need to make it up elsewhere. It is a blend of margins, some low and some high that allows a full service dive store to exist. Take away the extra $1.50 here and it will have to go somewhere else. My two cents worth.
Lee
www.seapearls.com
I have to agree with your point. Two bucks is not a big deal in this sport, but some times it is just the thought of the huge ration in an item like this.
I actually praise one of my LDS for selling little bags with 5 O-rings for close to $3. To me it is just the idea of selling one O-ring at a time when IMO you should always have several.
Divin'Hoosier
August 24th, 2006, 09:27 AM
Dive Rite Express sells them 5 for $3, or 60 cents each. That is a bit cheaper. If you combine them with an order of at least $35, shipping is free. To make it economical, you'd really need to combine your o-ring order with something else to get the free shipping. Each time I have an order of over $35 from them, I check and see if I need any o-rings and then I just add them to the order.
That's all great feedback. What got me scratching my head on this was that after I VIP'd my tank and hydro/VIP'd my 19cf pony I went diving and noticed upon charging my main that it was leaking. I looked at the O ring and it was obviously not new. I changed it (bought 2 from them a while back for my save-a-dive kit at $3.95) but when I confronted my LDS with the fact they hadn't replaced the O rings I was told, no they don't do that because the O rings are so expensive.
I was stunned and suggested that they adjust the price of the VIP and the Hydro to include that O ring. Me, I'd throw it in as part of the service especially to a customer that has spent over $2000. with them in the last year.
Azza
August 24th, 2006, 05:34 PM
But yes there is a difference between scuba O-rings and those
from the hardware store.
Scuba O-rings are much stronger.Try the soft hardware ones and
you will see they won't last very long.Most will go with a bang on
the first use
There is no difference between what LDS and engineering shops sell. You just have to buy the right durometer for the job.
Azza
August 24th, 2006, 05:35 PM
That's all great feedback. What got me scratching my head on this was that after I VIP'd my tank and hydro/VIP'd my 19cf pony I went diving and noticed upon charging my main that it was leaking. I looked at the O ring and it was obviously not new. I changed it (bought 2 from them a while back for my save-a-dive kit at $3.95) but when I confronted my LDS with the fact they hadn't replaced the O rings I was told, no they don't do that because the O rings are so expensive.
I was stunned and suggested that they adjust the price of the VIP and the Hydro to include that O ring. Me, I'd throw it in as part of the service especially to a customer that has spent over $2000. with them in the last year.
Mate thanks for sharing a good laugh with us. Oh my side hurts now.... They are so FOS it's not funny.
fmw625
August 24th, 2006, 07:27 PM
The other day i was diving air and an o ring blew out. My bad for not having a spare. I found 10 Buna-N for a dollar at home depot.
captain
August 24th, 2006, 07:59 PM
Get them here.
http://www.air-oil.com/oringsonlinefset.htm
Doc Ed
August 25th, 2006, 03:44 PM
Just to veer slightly off topic... assuming the same durometer rating, is it okay to use the hardware store o-rings for other applications like regulator o-rings? Anyone try this one yet?
captain
August 25th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Just to veer slightly off topic... assuming the same durometer rating, is it okay to use the hardware store o-rings for other applications like regulator o-rings? Anyone try this one yet?
Yes, no problems on air.
dlndavid
August 25th, 2006, 05:57 PM
being a Parker Hannifin employee and stock holder I would highly reccommend to buy the best O-Rings, Parker O-rings :D
http://www.parker.com/ead/cm2.asp?cmid=3106
Sasquatch
August 25th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Wow...if I only knew somebody in the biz! Hmmmmmmmmm
:d
wilkie
August 25th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Is there more than one size for std. J/K valves ? I got curious and had a look in my "save-a-dive" kit, now my kit has expanded steadily since it's humble beginnings, and now contains a plethora of 0-rings, the smallist to fit a SPG spindle, the largest to fit a 3/4" K valve/tank.
Now for the question, amoung this flock I see at least 3 different sizes that I would - on site - guess to be tank valve/yoke size.....
I got some: 1/2 x 11/16 = (AS568A-)112, 17/32 x 11/16 = (#)015, 1/2 x 5/8 = (#) 014 So I went to the basement to have a look, and all of my tanks (4) take the 112, but it seems I recall using the 015, on rental tanks,and i'm pretty sure that Ive seen the 014 on a tank valve. (I have a pretty good eye for measurements of less than an inch, iow-I know what .0020" "looks" like)
So does anybody know, off the top, what # 0-ring, or 0-rings we should pack around?
wilkie
August 25th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Another ? : what material/durometer, most of the 0-rings that I have appear to be "good-ole" buna N = 70 durometer (standard stuff), but I also have a previously opake (now amber)014 ring.
I understand ,from this thread, that purple = EPDM, I think that green = viton, black = buna N,But, is there more than one durometer rating for these matterials ?, what is the opake...teflon/silicone??? It feels too sturdy for silicone, but it has taken on the amber colour that silicone is famous for????
Can someone wise me up?
wilkie
August 25th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Bump
captain
August 25th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Color is not an indication of material. The regulator manufactures may have them made in colors to help identify two of the same size but different material used in different locationsto help in assembly. Most materials can be had in any number of colors.
bugsmashers
August 26th, 2006, 08:21 AM
Some time ago I bought 100 pieces of each size of viton O-ring used in my scuba equipment from Mcmaster-Carr, for the price of about 3 from my LDS. These are 100% O2 compatible and are the same as what the LDS will sell, ther is no "Scuba" quality O-ring. The dive industry is just trying to make some money off of people who aren't willing to do the legwork.
Web Monkey
August 26th, 2006, 09:27 AM
being a Parker Hannifin employee and stock holder I would highly reccommend to buy the best O-Rings, Parker O-rings :D
http://www.parker.com/ead/cm2.asp?cmid=3106
It's a nice site, and they're nice o-rings, but I don't think they're really looking to ship out a bag of 10. 8-)
Terry
Doc Ed
August 26th, 2006, 11:27 AM
Some time ago I bought 100 pieces of each size of viton O-ring used in my scuba equipment from Mcmaster-Carr, for the price of about 3 from my LDS. These are 100% O2 compatible and are the same as what the LDS will sell, ther is no "Scuba" quality O-ring. The dive industry is just trying to make some money off of people who aren't willing to do the legwork.
So, am I correct in assuming that as long as they have the same durometer rating and are of similar size and shape, then an o-ring by any other manufacturer (other than scuba) will work just as well? Do equipment manufacturers make their own o-rings to spec or do they just order from the same folks who provided rings to hardware stores?
captain
August 26th, 2006, 01:03 PM
When any device not just scuba equiptment is engineered in most cases it is engineered to be able to use commonly avaiable off the shelf bearings, seals, O rings, etc. This saves on manufacturing cost. Other than highly specialized designes such as maybe spacecraft will specially made sizes be used.
pescador775
August 26th, 2006, 05:01 PM
I didn't know that some people thought that a "SCUBA" O ring was different from a "regular" O ring. It explains the bashing of "hardware" and other open source O rings. After all these years, Scuba board is still interesting, one urban legend after another. It is true that some SCUBA regulators like Scubapro specify a particular O ring compound and hardness for the piston or some other part which may not be easy to find except in a black market kit. If the specs of the "special" rings were made public they would be relatively easy to find. That's another story.
Daveo957
August 26th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Dive shop here in our town charges .50 cent for an oring 2 dollars sounds a little high
neil
August 27th, 2006, 03:15 AM
Is there more than one size for std. J/K valves ? I got curious and had a look in my "save-a-dive" kit, now my kit has expanded steadily since it's humble beginnings, and now contains a plethora of 0-rings, the smallist to fit a SPG spindle, the largest to fit a 3/4" K valve/tank.
Now for the question, amoung this flock I see at least 3 different sizes that I would - on site - guess to be tank valve/yoke size.....
I got some: 1/2 x 11/16 = (AS568A-)112, 17/32 x 11/16 = (#)015, 1/2 x 5/8 = (#) 014 So I went to the basement to have a look, and all of my tanks (4) take the 112, but it seems I recall using the 015, on rental tanks,and i'm pretty sure that Ive seen the 014 on a tank valve. (I have a pretty good eye for measurements of less than an inch, iow-I know what .0020" "looks" like)
So does anybody know, off the top, what # 0-ring, or 0-rings we should pack around?
014 is the standard yoke valve face size. 112 is for DIN and for older yoke valve faces. If you have some older tanks that would explain why they fit. Don't know about the 015 fitting the valves. It might be close enough to fit.
Sasquatch
August 27th, 2006, 03:32 AM
Dive shop here in our town charges .50 cent for an oring 2 dollars sounds a little high
Yup. they have them in the two pack baggie for $3.95 plus tax.
What a deal!:mooner:
rcontrera
August 27th, 2006, 08:40 PM
In the diving industry, there are lots of "hands" that pass that o-ring along between the original manufacturer and the dive shop. And every one of those hands has a mark-up. In the US, the largest addition to the cost of the little piece of rubber is insurance. If a vital seal were to fail inside a regulator, the shop that replaced the seal and distributor of the parts would be sitting side by side in the court room. So, the biggest difference between that 5¢ o-ring and the $1 one is just industry paperwork.
captain
August 27th, 2006, 11:15 PM
In the diving industry, there are lots of "hands" that pass that o-ring along between the original manufacturer and the dive shop. And every one of those hands has a mark-up. In the US, the largest addition to the cost of the little piece of rubber is insurance. If a vital seal were to fail inside a regulator, the shop that replaced the seal and distributor of the parts would be sitting side by side in the court room. So, the biggest difference between that 5¢ o-ring and the $1 one is just industry paperwork.
If that is the case why is it the distributor who is exposed to the most risk because he has his product in many places sells cheap. And where are all these big law suits in the dive industry that insurance is supposedly protecting against. From the way they hide behind the law suit defence you would think every LDS must be getting sued every other week.
Juls64
August 27th, 2006, 11:18 PM
o- rings, we don't need no stinkin' o-rings
just let-er rip
wilkie
August 27th, 2006, 11:42 PM
014 is the standard yoke valve face size. 112 is for DIN and for older yoke valve faces. If you have some older tanks that would explain why they fit. Don't know about the 015 fitting the valves. It might be close enough to fit.
Perzactly the info that i requested, thanks- I owe you one & bless your heart
wilkie
August 27th, 2006, 11:58 PM
014 is the standard yoke valve face size. 112 is for DIN and for older yoke valve faces. If you have some older tanks that would explain why they fit. Don't know about the 015 fitting the valves. It might be close enough to fit.
Perzactly the info that i requested, thanks- I owe you one.
Scuba
August 28th, 2006, 02:16 AM
So, am I correct in assuming that as long as they have the same durometer rating and are of similar size and shape, then an o-ring by any other manufacturer (other than scuba) will work just as well? Do equipment manufacturers make their own o-rings to spec or do they just order from the same folks who provided rings to hardware stores?
In practical terms for SCUBA application, same material, same durometer, same size, equals same o-ring.
There are suitable alternate materials, and perhaps to a lesser degree durometers that a knowledgeable person can use if willing to experiment.
I would avoid using a different size. Of these three variables, a slight variation of size is the main determinant cause of 0-ring failure. According to a statement in an old thread by an expert on this subject.
Comments welcomed.
JDog
August 28th, 2006, 03:19 AM
I went to the Parker website. It has got a lot of info, but I didn't find the answer to something I was looking for.
My Halcyon inflator calls out- 70 durometer "buna" . There were 18 different materials on the website but not one was call "buna". So which material is equal to buna?
Luis H
August 28th, 2006, 08:05 AM
I went to the Parker website. It has got a lot of info, but I didn't find the answer to something I was looking for.
My Halcyon inflator calls out- 70 durometer "buna" . There were 18 different materials on the website but not one was call "buna". So which material is equal to buna?
You probably saw Nitrile, which is the same as Buna-N.
rcontrera
August 28th, 2006, 01:13 PM
If that is the case why is it the distributor who is exposed to the most risk because he has his product in many places sells cheap. And where are all these big law suits in the dive industry that insurance is supposedly protecting against. From the way they hide behind the law suit defence you would think every LDS must be getting sued every other week.
Oh, the lawsuits happen. It is just that a huge percentage of them never make it to court and are settled. The scare for the diving industry started back in the late 70s with Dacor who sold a mask in a cardboard box that said "Diving Mask" on it. A kid used it on a diving board and hit the water face first, shattering the glass and getting a piece of it in his eye. That was the first multi million dollar suit for this tiny industry and it was devastating.
As far as why there are places that sell cheap, Parker makes o-rings for many uses and they have no liability unless they specify the use. It is Dacor, Mares, Scubapro and the like that bags them up and identifies exactly what the seal does and where it should go. THEY are the ones that are subject to the liability. There are lots of dive shops that have taken it upon themselves to bypass the industry guys and just use the generics in their service. Hopefully, they are also the ones that know what they are doing so they aren't likely to have a failure.
dlndavid
August 28th, 2006, 02:23 PM
It's a nice site, and they're nice o-rings, but I don't think they're really looking to ship out a bag of 10. 8-)
Terry
True, but still buy Parker O-rings please. :D
Hoosier
August 28th, 2006, 03:39 PM
So does anybody know, off the top, what # 0-ring, or 0-rings we should pack around?
A "Search" function is a good tool for this matter. :D
As far as why there are places that sell cheap, Parker makes o-rings for many uses and they have no liability unless they specify the use. It is Dacor, Mares, Scubapro and the like that bags them up and identifies exactly what the seal does and where it should go. THEY are the ones that are subject to the liability. There are lots of dive shops that have taken it upon themselves to bypass the industry guys and just use the generics in their service. Hopefully, they are also the ones that know what they are doing so they aren't likely to have a failure.
All manufacturers have product liability concerns. One who mfrs o-rings is responsible for their o-rings meeting stated specifications. One who mfrs regulators is responsible for regulators meeting stated specifications.
The science of equipment maintenance, parts and service, is not some mystery only understood by SCUBA industry insiders.
JDog
August 29th, 2006, 02:30 AM
You probably saw Nitrile, which is the same as Buna-N.
In the "Halcyon Precision Inflator's Owners Manual" (V2.0) on page 6, 4 of the 5 o-ring callouts are "buna".
I am assuming Nitrile is short for Hydrogenated Nitrile (per the Parker website).
Thanks for the info.
