Samir
October 3rd, 2002, 01:21 AM
Who out there using RGBM tabels for trimix dives? Has anyone had problems??
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View Full Version : RGBM who's using it?
Samir October 3rd, 2002, 01:21 AM Who out there using RGBM tabels for trimix dives? Has anyone had problems?? Samir October 8th, 2002, 02:53 AM well, that many, from what I heard in the US it suppose br popular, but obviously it's not!!! MechDiver October 16th, 2002, 01:43 PM Samir once bubbled... Who out there using RGBM tabels for trimix dives? Has anyone had problems?? I have not seen any tables yet. NAUI is supposed to have them, but I haven't found a source yet. Some of the planning software is supposed to have RGBM soon also, but have not seen it active in the ones I have. tombiowami October 16th, 2002, 02:39 PM Actually Suunto Vypers and Mosquitos at the very least use RGBM, and probably some of the others in their line. The table is published in the manual, but since one is usually using the computer, they are not that useful. They are more conservative on a square profile. There is a link to the Naui site with the tables on it. They are pretty cumbersome IMO, and limiting, only 3 dives tops per day. The intention was to make them easier to read, but I think they failed. I also think making tables more limiting will push more people not to use them. I will try and dig up the link, I could not find them by searching or browsing their site a couple months ago. A Naui instructor friend of mine has a set. Tommy O-ring October 16th, 2002, 02:45 PM ...although it is not the default and you cannot use it for nitrox dives (only trimix). I have played with it, but only have a demo copy of the software. I am sticking with DecoPlanner until something better comes out. Along those lines, and perhaps Dr. Wienke will chime in here, I saw Dr. Wienke speak last month and he gave a very impressive talk about RGBM, deep stops, and deco theory. I wish there were more software packages to choose from than Abyss, as I don't do trimix yet and I hate the user interface. He, or someone doing RGBM stuff, is supposed to release new software next year that incorporates all the latest stuff...not sure about that or when it will be released though. WYDT October 16th, 2002, 02:51 PM Lot's of answers here (http://www.scubaboard.com/t11892/s923e1bf679369f9a77e403bc65c94e02.html) MechDiver October 18th, 2002, 10:54 AM O-ring once bubbled... ...although it is not the default and you cannot use it for nitrox dives (only trimix). Could I ask what you base that statement on? Reason I am asking, I am looking at new computers and the Vytec is one of the top 2, along with the VR3. The Vytec uses RGBM and is a nitrox only computer. Running the software dive simulator Suunto provides shows the profiles to be ultra-conservative, even with the RGBM set to 50%. Just comparing the profiles against dives I have done using GAP and VPlanner, I am not sure the Vytec is even usable for any deco diving using nitrox, let alone air. Phil O-ring October 18th, 2002, 11:05 AM Abyss has an RGBM algorithm......although it is not the default and you cannot use it for nitrox dives (only trimix). Here's the warning/information screen I get when I change Abyss from its default Abyss 150 algorithm into RGBM. You selected RGBM (Reduced Bubble Gradient Model) as your deco algorithm. The RGBM algorithm in Abyss has specific limitations that MUST be observed to create a correct RGBM deco profile. #1. SQUARE PROFILES ONLY! No Multi-Level dives. #2. NO REPETITIVE DIVES! Single Exposure dives only. #3. TRIMIX or HELIOX MUST BE THE BOTTOM GAS!. Do not use AIR or NITROX as a bottom gas. #4. YOU MUST SELECT ONE OF THE RGBM VALUE SETS!. Defaults-Algo Controls-RGBM, "Shallow, Normal, Deep, Extreme". #5. USE SLOW ASCENTS ! RGBM strongly favors a SLOW ascent rate. Limit your rate of ascent to 33ft-10m/min or LESS. #6 FINAL SURFACE STOP Don't forget your final deco stop at the surface. Avoid any activity upon surfacing. #7. SURFACE DECO GAS. Remain on your deco gas for a while after surfacing. #8. BE MORE CAREFULL! RGBM generates a VERY accelerated deco profile compared to nor! mal Abyss algos. Use extra Care and Caution when using it. Maybe we misunderstood each other...I am talking about Abyss decompression software and not the Suunto computer line. I do not own a Vytec, although I do have a Vyper. The RGBM implementation in these is ultra-conservative. Is the conservatism the reason you are leaning away from the Vytec? MechDiver October 18th, 2002, 12:49 PM O-ring once bubbled... Maybe we misunderstood each other...I am talking about Abyss decompression software and not the Suunto computer line. I do not own a Vytec, although I do have a Vyper. The RGBM implementation in these is ultra-conservative. Is the conservatism the reason you are leaning away from the Vytec? No, I knew you were discussing software, but I was curious as to, if RGBM only applied to trimix, why/how it was implemented in a nitrox/air computer. My fault for being less than concise. I agree, the RGBM in the Suunto does seem ultra-conservative, and yes, that would steer my away from the Vytec. I wanted something that could do reasonable deco dives using nitrox and doubles, and have gauge mode to use for trimix. The Vytec appeared to fill that requirement, but not if I have to spend an additional 20 minutes doing deco for a fairly simple dive. I also find it very confusing that Abyss has all those dire warnings concerning a very agressive profile using RGBM, while the Suuntos are directly opposite. Phil O-ring October 18th, 2002, 02:33 PM No, I knew you were discussing software, but I was curious as to, if RGBM only applied to trimix, why/how it was implemented in a nitrox/air computer. My fault for being less than concise. No, RGBM is a model/algorithm that has applications in the recreational space for air and nitrox mixes as well. The newly released NAUI tables are RGBM tables and there are extended range/deco tables coming out soon using RGBM. IMHO, and I am not sure, the reason for RGBM's restrictions in the Abyss implementation is grounded in the Abyss software itself. I don't see any logical reason for RGBM to not do all that we have talked about (nitrox, air, shallow deco, etc.), so I am left with the notion that it must be some limiting factor in Abyss' implementation of RGBM. I wanted something that could do reasonable deco dives using nitrox and doubles, and have gauge mode to use for trimix. The Vytec appeared to fill that requirement, but not if I have to spend an additional 20 minutes doing deco for a fairly simple dive. Agreed. My buddy has the Vytec and I have a Vyper. My Vyper keeps me in the water about twice as long (obviously depending on profile and bottom time) as Decoplanner...I do not know a good way around this other than stop using it as anything other than a gauge (even with Nitrox) and switch to tables/software unless another computer does it better (maybe the VR3). I also find it very confusing that Abyss has all those dire warnings concerning a very agressive profile using RGBM, while the Suuntos are directly opposite. I think the Suunto implementation is dumbed down significantly and made so ultra-conservative that the warning is inherent in its use. The Abyss model might be less conservative, but I wouldn't know since I can't really use it. I ran some sample profiles on it, but since it won't go over 100' in depth I can't get much out of it. Since I am not diving trimix, I found the demo pretty useless and knocked it out of my list of programs to use for my personal diving and decided on decoplanner until something else comes out. MechDiver October 18th, 2002, 03:48 PM O-ring once bubbled... Agreed. My buddy has the Vytec and I have a Vyper. My Vyper keeps me in the water about twice as long (obviously depending on profile and bottom time) as Decoplanner...I do not know a good way around this other than stop using it as anything other than a gauge (even with Nitrox) and switch to tables/software unless another computer does it better (maybe the VR3). I have looked strongly at the VR3, but am put off by the button problems, cost of 2 software packages and the IR link to use it effectively, and the need for a laptop. Presumably the computer is useful by itself, but the addons appear to really increase the useability of the thing. I really don't want to have to deal with OMS though, but cannot get it from Delta-p directly. I have been given a good price by the shop I am talking to, same as that from Leisurepro, but they're an OMS dealer. Two friends have the HS Explorers and I am not impressed by those at all. Phil O-ring October 18th, 2002, 09:06 PM ...what does LP want for one? I have already ruled it out as an option, but I was curious what they wanted for it... I agree with your assessment. I have not found a computer that I would use for deco so I got decoplanner. Samir October 19th, 2002, 12:39 AM The only RGBM software for planning that I seen has been in Abyss, and there is a new version coming out. The problem with the current version is on mix dives it gives you realy short run times, even if you you insert way points with your deco mix's. I haven't tried it yet, and have been playing around with modifing V-planer and Z-planer and compare it with 120 algorithem in Abyss! but would really be intresred to see the new version that Dr. Wienke worked on. Samir October 19th, 2002, 01:00 AM Speaking of VR3's, we had a lot of guys have problems with buttons falling off, and calibrating through the interface on O2 has been a problem for some guys!! I like the unit but will hold off until these problems looked at, but definetly want the interface on my unit in the near future. MechDiver October 19th, 2002, 09:28 PM O-ring once bubbled... ...what does LP want for one? I have already ruled it out as an option, but I was curious what they wanted for it... I agree with your assessment. I have not found a computer that I would use for deco so I got decoplanner. LP price was $1089, but they don't have the software or link. Also, they are most positively NOT a VR3 dealer. Delta-p has never heard of them. Phil O-ring October 19th, 2002, 09:50 PM Also, they are most positively NOT a VR3 dealer. Delta-p has never heard of them. There goes that idea...with the buttons prone to falling off, etc. I wouldn't touch one without a warranty... MechDiver October 21st, 2002, 10:46 AM O-ring once bubbled... There goes that idea...with the buttons prone to falling off, etc. I wouldn't touch one without a warranty... I have two different sources who will be checking things at DEMA and getting me prices that I think will be very ballpark with LP. If you like, and the prices are good, I'll ping you with them and names of dealers. Phil O-ring October 21st, 2002, 10:50 AM I was just curious what they were going for these days. I am going to wait and see what Wienke and GUE turn out next year. I suspect that we will see a really nice RGBM deco software product or a computer turned out early next year....I will stick with Decoplanner and the Vyper until then. Have fun at DEMA...wish I was going.. DocRCH October 22nd, 2002, 07:41 PM The VR3 has been in use in Europe for years. If buttons were falling off, I guess we would have heard of it by now. Nothing is perfect. I am using DPlan and Decoplanner and a bottom timer. The last 2 weeks, I have been diving on the Miss Lindsey out of Hatteras Village and have had great dives! Vis has been good and a lot of critters on the Proteus. Robert:doctor: O-ring October 22nd, 2002, 09:37 PM I was on the Miss Lindsey two weeks ago on the Proteus. 2 dives on Sunday, blown out Sat....were you on the boat then?
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