Hello everyone. I am new to this board, and just finished my trimix class.
I am trying to get ideas for carrying 2 alum 40 deco tanks on the left.
If anyone has a URL or description on how best to do this, it would be appreciated. I can't see hooking both tanks to the d-rings, and invision a Y cord of somesort that hangs from the chest and has 2 connectors?
Phil
JamieZ
October 4th, 2002, 05:41 PM
Welcome to the board!!!! Here is your first response.
You just took a Trimix course and your instuctor didnt teach you this. Not to be rude but you should of learned this along time ago. Ask your instructor.
Josh Levinson
October 4th, 2002, 06:39 PM
Welcome to the board. I've recently starting diving with both my stages on the left, and I just use the same D-ring for both. I haven't really noticed anything that would indicate it would be better to have a "Y-type" attachment. But as I said, I'm new to this setup, and so I'd love to hear peoples' suggestions as well.
Josh
Waterlover
October 4th, 2002, 08:13 PM
Inquiring minds would like to know?
caverkevin
October 5th, 2002, 11:22 AM
Three Al 40's will fit on those d-rings no problem. So two should not be a problem. I am guessing here that if your instructor did not cover anything of this nature that he use not a believer of DIR. Sounds like to me that you are playing with DIR system. IF I am correct, don't try to learn it on your own. Go find some people that dive DIR and learn it from them.
Kevin Jones
MechDiver
October 5th, 2002, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the feedback. We did not cover both stages on the left in classes due to mutual choice, as it isn't germaine to anything other than DIR and scooters. Neither of which we fall all over ourselves about.
I was looking into this as a setup choice, and because one of my dive partners uses a video camera in the right hand. He was looking for alternatives to keeping the right side clean because of the camera.
As far as the DIR thing goes, I have been following that for years. Some of it works, some of it doesn't. I had just not been able to find detailed info on hanging 2 stages on the left. I would have guessed that having both attached to the same d-ring would cause them to bang together all the time. I'll give it a try that way though and see how it works for me.
As far as learning this a long time ago, why? One stage on each side works perfectly well.
Thanks again.
Phil
DocRCH
October 5th, 2002, 08:33 PM
You can unclip one of the stages on your left and reclip it on the waist D ring so that it is in the slip steam of the other. This can be helpful when scootering. When you go to deco, you can replace it where it was originally.
Robert:doctor:
omar
October 5th, 2002, 09:13 PM
MechDiver
Can you tell me what part of DIR doesn't work and why?
Next you said that rigging the deco tanks on the left is only germaine to DIR and scooters. Then you indicated that it would also work for camera use!! Hello....
I don't think that you have the experience to actually make valid and germaine comments about a DIR configuration. This is supported by the fact that you don't even know how rigging deco bottles on the left is done. This is only one of a number of basic elements of DIR.
omar
MechDiver
October 6th, 2002, 01:49 PM
omar once bubbled...
MechDiver
Can you tell me what part of DIR doesn't work and why?
Next you said that rigging the deco tanks on the left is only germaine to DIR and scooters. Then you indicated that it would also work for camera use!! Hello....
I don't think that you have the experience to actually make valid and germaine comments about a DIR configuration. This is supported by the fact that you don't even know how rigging deco bottles on the left is done. This is only one of a number of basic elements of DIR.
omar
No, I am not getting into the DIR/non-DIR thing because its a waste of time. Thats why I don't go to rec.scuba anymore. I came here to ask a simple question, not get in a pissing match about DIR.
How do you know what my experience is? Do we dive together? Have we met in another life? You don't know a thing about me, but you're ready and willing to make statements about what I think and don't know. I know what the basic elements of DIR are, I already said that if you would read it.
Thanks to those who offered advice. I'll be going now, as this is just another place to argue stupid points about nothing instead of seeking knowledge.
reefraff
October 6th, 2002, 05:48 PM
Ticked off the dark hordes, didn't you? Way to go! :thumb: I used to award points for this, but it's become so easy to do that I had to stop. :)
A couple of 40's will sling easily from the left side without banging around too much unless you've got your snap-bolts tied too close to the tanks. You don't need any special rigging, but I've found that large snap-bolts and an offset hip ring make things easier to work with.
Practice makes all things easier.
Steven
omar
October 6th, 2002, 09:02 PM
MechDiver farted.......
No, I am not getting into the DIR/non-DIR thing because its a waste of time. Thats why I don't go to rec.scuba anymore. I came here to ask a simple question, not get in a pissing match about DIR.
Then you shouldn't have made comments that you can't support.
This is typical someone makes some blanket statements about DIR when they don't have the experience or knowledge about it, and when called on it start crying foul and insisting on being treated nice.
Your lack of experience is all over your statement.
omar
reefraff
October 6th, 2002, 09:48 PM
omar once bubbled...
Then you shouldn't have made comments that you can't support.
This is typical someone makes some blanket statements about DIR when they don't have the experience or knowledge about it, and when called on it start crying foul and insisting on being treated nice.
Your lack of experience is all over your statement.
omar
Omar, if you can't play nice, or at least hum the tune, then please sit down and keep quiet. This guy didn't attack you, he didn't say DIR sucks, all he said was
I have been following that for years. Some of it works, some of it doesn't. Turning every question into a DIR litmus test is not conducive to learning and attacking every apostate is counter-productive.
You're out of line.
Steven
MechDiver
October 7th, 2002, 09:31 PM
reefraff once bubbled...
Ticked off the dark hordes, didn't you? Way to go! :thumb: I used to award points for this, but it's become so easy to do that I had to stop. :)
A couple of 40's will sling easily from the left side without banging around too much unless you've got your snap-bolts tied too close to the tanks. You don't need any special rigging, but I've found that large snap-bolts and an offset hip ring make things easier to work with.
Practice makes all things easier.
Steven
Steven,
Thank you for the very informative answer.
And yes, it is way too easy. And apparently automatic.
Phil
AquaTec
October 8th, 2002, 03:47 AM
Mechdiver
Welcome to the board, you will always get guys like Omar on this forum..but you will also get some good ideas as well. you just need a little tuff skin and realize that some of these guys need to deffend their beliefs to the end.
I can't offer you advaice on your question, i wear them on both sides. i just wanted to say welcome and don't sweat the Omars on this board. he was obviously just looking to make it a DIR fight and you intelegently didn't buy into it.
wahat he was trying to do seems to have backfired on him as their are a lot of people from all camps tired of those types of tactics. It just makes him look bad.
diverberr
October 8th, 2002, 07:20 AM
reefraff once bubbled...
Turning every question into a DIR litmus test is not conducive to learning and attacking every apostate is counter-productive.
Steven
Steven,
I completely agree with you. I haven't been on the board very long, but it does seem every opportunity is used to get into the DIR/non-DIR argument. Is it just that the Omars out there are insecure, and looking to make themselves feel better? There's a book deal in this whole thing for the right psychologist.
See you on the bottom,
Al.
Friggincold
October 8th, 2002, 07:20 AM
I was trained by a NON DIR Instructor. I find it interesting that Mechdivers instructor didn't show the various options in gear configuration, even though it was a mutual agreement not to. By showing the options, this very important part of the training course, he would have allowed Mechdiver the option to decide for himself how to rig his own configuration. It doesn't have to turn into a DIR fight. Both bottles on the left doesn't make it DIR. I know non DIR divers who mount both bottles on the left. These divers were given the option during their training and choose to mount them on the left. IT's not a DIR problem. The problem is the education wasn't enough to allow for a choice by the trainee. Gee sounds like the same thing DIR does....there's only one way to do it........ One other comment if you mount both bottles on the left you may want to check your trim based on where you mount your light....try it and make the adjustments before you do a deep dive....just my $.02...it ain't worth much...Friggincold
reefraff
October 8th, 2002, 09:36 AM
By showing the options, this very important part of the training course, he would have allowed Mechdiver the option to decide for himself how to rig his own configuration.
I agree, completely. I don't have enough good ideas of my own that I can afford to pass one up just because someone else thought of it first. No shame in that, I hope!
Steven
MechDiver
October 8th, 2002, 11:35 AM
reefraff once bubbled...
I agree, completely. I don't have enough good ideas of my own that I can afford to pass one up just because someone else thought of it first. No shame in that, I hope!
Steven
I guess I have to agree with Omar (drat) in that statement being way too broad. I just shortened up the decision because I didn't want to argue.
I already knew of the stage on left option, primarily due to reading dir. The decision was made to not pursue this as the one on each side was more common, and that is what I wanted to use first. If I decided to, after the class, I could try the left side, or right side, or behind my back, or whatever I wanted to.
All things do not have to be shown/learned at once. That is why we have c-cards; to allow us to pursue knowledge and learn.
Friggin', hope that answers your question.
Phil
MechDiver
October 8th, 2002, 11:42 AM
Friggincold once bubbled...
One other comment if you mount both bottles on the left you may want to check your trim based on where you mount your light....try it and make the adjustments before you do a deep dive....just my $.02...it ain't worth much...Friggincold
All comments are worth something. Both bottles on the left is a concern regarding trim as the argon is there also. My canister is small and fairly light so I also want to see how everything balances.
Thanks for the comment. BTW, I had already taken 3 other classes with my trimix instructor, so we had been over equipment options many times before. The only addition was a second deco bottle.
Phil
Deco
October 8th, 2002, 10:21 PM
Hey MechDiver,
I have dived with two Al 40s deco bottles (70' and 20') and one Al 80 stage with no scooter. I had no problems with trim mainly due to have the canister light on my right. Not something I like to swim with but it was actually part of my Adv. Nitrox and Deco class (had an excellent instructor). Anyway, back to the bottles... we did this dive with three bottles on our left as well as our Argon bottle. The trick is place the O2 bottle on first, because it is the last one you will use. Then you attach the stage bottle (Al 80) which is the one you will breathe. Attach the 70' bottle to the hip D-ring with just the top snap (the one close to the valve). When you are swimming the 70' bottle has enough slack to trail behind you and out of the way.
After you have used almost all of the gas from the stage, simply unclip it from your D-rings. The stage is empty and very bouyant. With the stage reg still in your mouth let the stage float up in front of you. Now you can reach back and move the 70' bottle up and clip to your D-rings as normal. Now you can switch to your back gas, pull the stage bottle down, stow the reg, turn the valve off, and clip it to your hip D-ring using just the top clip (like you had the 70' bottle before).
Now your ready to use your 70' bottle for your deco. After you have finished the deco using the 70' bottle, just make the switch over to your O2 bottle the same way you switched from the stage.
The key to using stage and deco bottles is that you only breathe off of the bottle that is on top of the stack (I hope that makes sense). Once your done breathing it, get it out of the way, by moving it back behind you.
If you haven't noticed I am a STRONG DIR advocate as I have found nothing that doesn't work in the DIR system. I also couldn't care less if you dive DIR or not.
Have fun and don't try three bottles until you have the two down first. It is tough to swim with.
Dive safe
Munin
October 8th, 2002, 10:29 PM
MechDiver once bubbled...
Both bottles on the left is a concern regarding trim as the argon is there also. My canister is small and fairly light so I also want to see how everything balances.
Trim really isn't an issue if you're using a Halcyon wing, especially if you're using Apeks regs with hoses routed GI3-style, because the (moderately) restricted airflow through the narrow top section allows you to distribute the air unequally to compensate for the weight of deco or stage bottles, or a cannister light with none. I can maintain perfect lateral trim at all times by shifting air from side to side.
AquaTec
October 8th, 2002, 10:55 PM
Munin once bubbled...
Trim really isn't an issue if you're using a Halcyon wing, especially if you're using Apeks regs with hoses routed GI3-style, because the (moderately) restricted airflow through the narrow top section allows you to distribute the air unequally to compensate for the weight of deco or stage bottles, or a cannister light with none. I can maintain perfect lateral trim at all times by shifting air from side to side.
I have a question for you regarding your trim techniques. I will try and word it carefully so as not to create a DIR vs others question.
I have heard several DIR divers mention that they control their trim of diving with their tanks on the left by moving the air in their bladder to that side.
It would seem to me that a flat profile with air equally distriputed throughout your bladder would be a preffered. it seems that to keep the left side of your bladder more inflated you would need to tilt slightly or maybe greatly.
if you had three tanks on one side then you would have an extra 20 lbs negagtive on that one side, that is a lot of air on one side of your bladder. and a lot of weight on just one side. imo
Just a quick thought. if you had on bunggied wings you can adjust your trim by tightning the bungies on one side and loosening them on the other this would allow a flat profile while in the water. just something that occured to me while typing this.
Now since it is DIR not to have a reddundent bladder [if drysuit diving] what happens to that air shift if your bladder fails it doesn't seem that shifting it in your dry suit is that feasable....but i guess it could be done.
i use a very small canister light as seen here http://www.diverite.com/products/lites/nimh.htm
so there is not that much offsetting weight.
for all those who are trolling I am not looking to start an argument, i am somewhere between DIR and Non DIR and ask these question sencerely, as this is one area that i can't get my head around to find the benifit
WreckWriter
October 9th, 2002, 10:29 AM
I don't intentionally offset things with uneven air in my wing. I wear 2 deco bottles, aluminum 40s, on the left and my smallish can light on the right (Pro 4 HID). I don't find the deco bottles cause any real balance issues underwater. If they were steel or larger aluminums it might be a different story though.
I use Apeks regs and the hose routing does cause some restriction in flow across the top of my wing but its not really noticable in my opinion.
I think if one is weighted correctly and balanced underwater there should be minimal air in the wing at any time at depth. I virtually never feel any shifting of my trim due to air flow within my wing.
Tom
WYDT
October 9th, 2002, 11:01 AM
AquaTec once bubbled...
I have a question for you regarding your trim techniques. I will try and word it carefully so as not to create a DIR vs others question.
I have heard several DIR divers mention that they control their trim of diving with their tanks on the left by moving the air in their bladder to that side.
I dive DIR (Cave) and don't have to move air to one side or the other to maintain trim....
If you use Luxfer tanks and use correct rigging and regs for stages/deco bottle they won't be overly negative and won't make a difference how many you hang on the left side.
I had two stages (AL80's) and an AL40 O2 bottle on the left this past Saturday... no problems with trim and no need to "shift air". You just have to use the right bottles rigged the right way and have the regs set up correctly.
This is not directed at anyone in particular but one can't "half ass" be DIR like just hanging bottles on the left. It's the whole system that makes it work.
Those who claim it doesn't work likely don't really know what it's about.... or how it really works....
The more I learn about DIR the more I KNOW it works. It's the WHOLE system... not parts.
DSAO!!
MikeFerrara
October 9th, 2002, 11:24 AM
I have carried as many as three al 80's on the left with no trouble. If anything, when all tanks are full I may be slightly head heavy (double 104's FULL on back).
MechDiver
October 9th, 2002, 12:33 PM
WYDT once bubbled...
I had two stages (AL80's) and an AL40 O2 bottle on the left this past Saturday... no problems with trim and no need to "shift air". You just have to use the right bottles rigged the right way and have the regs set up correctly.
DSAO!!
Could you share the information on how the bottles should be rigged and how you setup the regs? I would be very interested in details here.
Thanks
Phil
WYDT
October 9th, 2002, 01:01 PM
MechDiver once bubbled...
Could you share the information on how the bottles should be rigged and how you setup the regs? I would be very interested in details here.
Thanks
Phil
Sure.... here are some links that should help out....
Maybe those of you who don't notice the imbalance have less restriction and even out without conscious effort? I find the effect of even a single deco bottle noticeable and find that I am more comfortable if I purposely shift air to that side. I clip on a bottle and am a bit heavy on the left, I lean to the right to shift air left and I'm balanced. Hmmm. Maybe I'll try it with different regs to see if it is the restriction.
MechDiver
October 9th, 2002, 02:24 PM
WYDT once bubbled...
Sure.... here are some links that should help out....
Thanks for the links. I had all of them except the first, but it was nice to read JJ's article again anyway.
Phil
MechDiver
October 9th, 2002, 02:27 PM
Munin once bubbled...
Maybe those of you who don't notice the imbalance have less restriction and even out without conscious effort? I find the effect of even a single deco bottle noticeable and find that I am more comfortable if I purposely shift air to that side. I clip on a bottle and am a bit heavy on the left, I lean to the right to shift air left and I'm balanced. Hmmm. Maybe I'll try it with different regs to see if it is the restriction.
I'm using SP regs with the Explorer wing and, even with argon and one deco bottle (40) on left, I seem to just adjust to it. One on each side was the same after getting used to the added bulk. I really notice no air shifting, or have to lean one way or the other to balance.
Phil
Scubaroo
October 9th, 2002, 02:28 PM
When using an Apeks DST on a slung tank (like at http://www.northeastdir.com/images/pages/stage_close_2.htm), is it best to have the swivel part of the reg on the left? I'll be using a sling bottle for the first time this weekend and am in the middle of putting hoses on the first stage.
Uncle Pug
October 9th, 2002, 04:50 PM
bengiddins once bubbled...
is it best to have the swivel part of the reg on the left?
Ben... while I have my DST turret on the left... I do have my spg on the front of the first stage instead of behind it since I didn't want it in the way of the DIN wheel.
WYDT
October 9th, 2002, 05:49 PM
MechDiver once bubbled...
Thanks for the links. I had all of them except the first, but it was nice to read JJ's article again anyway.
Phil
No problem, I didn't mean to just throw a bunch of links at ya but since you've already read them all I'll just say the most important thing I think is to get the correct tank (Luxfer). Others can be way too heavy and hang too far down.
A couple of the guys I dive with have heavy 80's (don't know what brand) and they hang down a LOT farther than mine increasing drag significantly. Ohh but they were such a deal... arrgghh... nevermind, different story... ;)
The Luxfers are about neutral when they are half empty and a little positive when totally empty. Very easy to carry a load of them. I haven't done more than three yet but I've got some buddies that regularly do 4 and more and they are all on the left.... hip cliped for more than 2.
jeepster0000
October 14th, 2002, 11:06 AM
I was looking at all the links and read all the forums. I was wandering if anyone has a picture of the tanks rigged onto the harness. I would like to see the 3 tanks on the D-ring. I know how to rig a stage/deco bottle, but I never had a need to use more than one.
Thanks
ADAM
WYDT
October 14th, 2002, 02:42 PM
jeepster0000 once bubbled...
I was looking at all the links and read all the forums. I was wandering if anyone has a picture of the tanks rigged onto the harness. I would like to see the 3 tanks on the D-ring. I know how to rig a stage/deco bottle, but I never had a need to use more than one.
Thanks
ADAM
Hi Adam,
We don't normally clip off more than two bottles on the left side top and bottom d-rings. If carrying more than two any extra get clipped to the left hip d-ring by the top clip on the stage. We use a leash (short loop of 1/4 line with a clip on it) to accomplish this. It actually works quite well. Also only stages with Helium get clipped to the left hip so they will not drag when full.
