Ok...

[boomx5]

so I'm browsing through "Padi Advanced Diver Manual" circa 1984, and lo and behold what do I stumble across? Backplates and wings, spg's and bungied octo's. And so I says to myself,
"self, maybe these GUE guy's aren't as off the wall as alot of people make them out to be". And, "maybe there were people doing it right long before most of the people on the board even learned to dive". "Maybe GI3 and the GUE guy's just saw somethings that worked and improved upon an already successful design to make better". I don't know, it was just an observation, but I did find it intriguing.

[MikeFerrara]

The equipment configuration (Hogarthian) is not new and was not invented by the GUE or the WKPP. The system works perfectly for all of my diving, with the exception of the sidemount stuff I will be getting into this winter, but a bp/wing and its no frills nature doesn't give the manufacturers much in the way of new stuff to market every year. There is only so many things you can dod to a wing or plate.

They need to be able to add d-rings to a sysstem that already has eight. Why? to get the edge on the brand that only has seven. If everyone realized that you only need three, where would that leave them? Pockets, zippers, rings and things that look cool hanging on them is what makes the diving world go round.

[detroit diver]

Hi Mike,

Just curious as to why Hogarthian doesn't work for sidemount. I've never even seen a sidemount rig. What do you use when diving this way?

Thanks,

Jack

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver
First off, anything I say about sidemount is based on what I know from others who do it because I haven't done it yet. The tanks are worn on the side, like stages. There are no tanks or plate on the back. The idea is to have as low of a profile as possible so you can fit through the smallest places possible. Most don't wear the primary light on the hip because it gets in the way of the tank that is worn there. Some use long hose but it isn't for sharing air it's to make it easier to remove a tank and push it in fron of you. If a wing is worn it is tied down to keep it close to the back. Gas management is different because there is no manifold. You are essentially diving independants. Rigging for the tanks is usually a little different than the normal stage rigging to keep them closer to the body

[leadweight]

Mike,

Although I agree that most of the dive industry would rather engage in meaningless changes of their products rather than a process of simplification and refinement, it looks like Halcyon has come up with a backplate based marketing plan. Their Pioneer series wings are a unique product and they have other items such as the ACB weight system. The pioneer wings make the backplate more usuable with a single tank (but not my preference to dive a BP with a single) which greatly expands the potential sales base as not that many divers ever use doubles.

[O-ring]

..and not let it degrade into a DIR vs. non-DIR thread.

That being said, I still maintain that Halcyon stopped making the 45# wing so they could sell me a 40# for double AL80s and a 55# for double steels. When all is said and done I will end up with 3 wings, including my 27# for singles. Building popularity among single tank divers of the bp/wing system is a pretty sound strategy for growth since, as you said, there are many more single tank divers than double tank divers and the whole tech community is a pretty small niche relative to the rest of the sport.

I don't like having to own three $300 wings though...

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
detroit diver
First off, anything I say about sidemount is based on what I know from others who do it because I haven't done it yet. The tanks are worn on the side, like stages. There are no tanks or plate on the back. The idea is to have as low of a profile as possible so you can fit through the smallest places possible. Most don't wear the primary light on the hip because it gets in the way of the tank that is worn there. Some use long hose but it isn't for sharing air it's to make it easier to remove a tank and push it in fron of you. If a wing is worn it is tied down to keep it close to the back. Gas management is different because there is no manifold. You are essentially diving independants. Rigging for the tanks is usually a little different than the normal stage rigging to keep them closer to the body

Mike,

Thanks! Sounds a little claustrophobic for me. If it's that tight, I dont want to be there!

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver

The thing is that your idea of tight changes as you gain experience. What I once thought of as tight is now huge and what I think is tight others think is huge. And then there all the tunnels that still don't have anyones line in them. Some cave have restrictions but big cave on the other side. Someone has to go see it.

[Uncle Pug]

I like the ocean...
I like the ocean...

[detroit diver]

You're absolutely right. You go see it and tell me what it looks like!





MikeFerrara once bubbled...
detroit diver

The thing is that your idea of tight changes as you gain experience. What I once thought of as tight is now huge and what I think is tight others think is huge. And then there all the tunnels that still don't have anyones line in them. Some cave have restrictions but big cave on the other side. Someone has to go see it.

[MikeFerrara]

Now UP,
One of these days we are going to get you and LY into a cavern. When you hover at that stop sign and shine that HID down the line, you will not be able to rest until you can go see what's down there. My wife has wanted to cave dive since the beginning. I wanted no part of it. On a business trip to Florida, after our trip on the Gulf was blown out we dove some of the springs. that was it, I had the bug.

[jbd]

Uncle Pug! Be strong!!

Keep thinking ocean, ocean, ocean...

[JamesK]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Now UP,
One of these days we are going to get you and LY into a cavern. When you hover at that stop sign and shine that HID down the line, you will not be able to rest until you can go see what's down there.

How right you are......

We really need to get UP down to North Florida and show him what it is all about!!!!

What do you say UP? This is an official invite. Come on down.

[WYDT]

O-ring once bubbled...
..and not let it degrade into a DIR vs. non-DIR thread.

That being said, I still maintain that Halcyon stopped making the 45# wing so they could sell me a 40# for double AL80s and a 55# for double steels. When all is said and done I will end up with 3 wings, including my 27# for singles.

Yo O... Why don't you just use the 55# with the 80's? I do and it works fine. I actually have a 65# now that I wear with my 104's but that's just because I got a great deal on it and I needed another (the wife is now a cave diver too!).

I know 55# isn't needed for 80's but it's not that much bigger and doesn't create much more drag.... not $300 worth of drag anyway... :D

Put that money into stages and regs! ;)

[WYDT]

Some pics of some tight spots and side mount configs from www.cavediver.net (http://www.cavediver.net)

http://www.cavediver.net/pictures/british1.JPG

http://www.cavediver.net/pictures/cownite6.JPG

http://www.cavediver.net/pictures/cownite4.JPG

http://www.cavediver.net/pictures/jerrside.jpg

BTW: I don't do sidemount. :hiding: