Oly E-330 Comments Wanted

[rcolman]

I have been shooting with an E-300 in an Ikelite housing for the last 18 months, or so, with good results. However, lately, I am finding the viewfinder somewhat limiting and am thinking about changing to an E-330 body for live preview.

This involves a considerable amount of expense since I need to buy a new body and housing.

Is anyone out there using an E-330 underwater. If so, your comments about how the live preview works and general comments much appreciated.

Rick Colman

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I don't have a housing for mine just yet, but I can attest to the usefullness of the LiveView and its workability on dry land. The LCD is large and crisp enough to gauge focus. Its a great camera, but aside from the LiveView, slightly lower noise in higher ISOs, slightly better metering, it will be very comparable to your E300.

[calypsonick]

Rick, I can't compare my E330 to any other DSLR, as it is my first. I am coming from the Oly C8080. That said, I really like composing in the liveview screen (the main reason I chose this DSLR over others). It seems to give me more flexibility when taking macro in nooks and crannies as I can maneuver my rig into holes or under corals without having to worry about getting my head in there too. I have to admit that having the liveview, I have yet to need to compose through the viewfinder. I keep telling myself that I have to learn but haven't yet. ;)

The battery lasts for 2 dives with the liveview screen on all the time and after taking 250+ photos, so battery life is not an issue.

If you want to preview photos from the E330, the more recent photos in my gallery were taken with the E330.

So far, I really like the camera.

[rcolman]

How is it in low-light conditions? Do you find yourself with enough light to stay in mode A or do you end up switching to the macro mode due to low light conditions?

[calypsonick]

I found that low light was an issue when I had the focus mode set for all of the three focus points and the camera had a hard time picking one over the other. Now that I set it to use only the center focus point, I have had no problems. On dawn and night dives, I use a HID canister light and therefore have no light issues as it is very bright.

[Fota]

Rick, I can't compare my E330 to any other DSLR, as it is my first. I am coming from the Oly C8080. That said, I really like composing in the liveview screen (the main reason I chose this DSLR over others). It seems to give me more flexibility when taking macro in nooks and crannies as I can maneuver my rig into holes or under corals without having to worry about getting my head in there too. I have to admit that having the liveview, I have yet to need to compose through the viewfinder. I keep telling myself that I have to learn but haven't yet. ;)

The battery lasts for 2 dives with the liveview screen on all the time and after taking 250+ photos, so battery life is not an issue.

If you want to preview photos from the E330, the more recent photos in my gallery were taken with the E330.

So far, I really like the camera.

Hi,

Very interesting. I'm coming from an Oly 7070 and even though I'm able to take some really nice shots with it, there are way to too many shots that I just can't take mainly due to it's crappy autofocus (which is very similar to the one in 8080).
Not only is it dead-slow (shooting a moving fish is a no no and subject further away than a 1-2 feet very seldom gets really sharp), it also has major problems with focusing in low light (i.e. where I typically dive), and as if that wasn't enough, it has major problems finding the focus on the subject when there is particles in the water (after some thinking it decides to go for the particles) and last but not least it fails almost everytime on several soft and transparent objects.
Note that I find the autofocus really bad even though I use the pointing light from my DS-125 as focus light (but I'd rather not as it has many drawbacks) when diving in Sweden (where I dive the most). In tropical waters the DS-125 pointing light is not visible.


Now, please tell us all what the main reasons were for you to switch from 8080 to E-330?
Did it fulfill your desires?
What wasn't as good as you thought?
What was as good?
What was perhaps even better?

And most important, relative to the 8080, how good is the autofocus?
Much better? A little better? As good/bad? etc

I've heard that the A mode display is very dark in low light conditions. Is it so?

I mostly dive in bad sight green water (Swedish west coast) and so far no one has shown me any picture from that type of conditions.

I've heard that the viewfinder is electronic only in the E-330. Is it really so?
From what I've read, the viewfinder is not very good (compared to e.g. D80), so the main reason for getting the E-330 is to use the display. In uv-photo it's really good to be able to use a display in all conditions but when the autofocus is not trusty, or if you want to go manual focus. A true and good viewfinder is then outstanding.

Really looking forward to your comments.


/Fota

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The D80 has a very nice big bright viewfinder. The E330 is smaller and without as much magnification, but its useable on land, not sure about while housed UW(I don't use my E330 UW yet). The LCD is crisp enough to judge accurate focus.

Not sure if anyone has noted this or not... B Mode has autofocus now with the E330s current firmware update.

[jlyle]

Not sure if anyone has noted this or not... B Mode has autofocus now with the E330s current firmware update.

Sort of...in B mode, you have to push the AEL button for auto-focus, followed by the shutter to take the picture. Awkward, but better than nothing.

[rcolman]

To respond to Fota's comments, I moved from a C-5060 (same a 7070 mostly) to an E-300 about a year ago. The improvement was immense. I can now do fish photography and get decent autofocus under conditions that were impossible for the 5060. Also, I can shoot RAW fast which is a vast advantage.

The viewfinder in the E-300 is decent in an Ikelite housing, but, there are still situations where it is a pain to get the housing up to your eye. Lately, I find myself just pointing the camera and pulling the trigger without bothering with the viewfinder. This works because: (1) I use the focus priority setting so the camera will not take the shot unless the autofocus locks in, and (2) I shoot wide-angle with an 11-22mm lens and can get good focus most of the time without setting up the shot in the viewfinder.

So, I am heading towards the E-330 because I want the live view feature exclusively.

Rick Colman

[calypsonick]

Fota, I cannot judge the viewfinder because I have never used one, including the one on my E330, even on land.

As for the autofocus, it is better than the 8080. I would often wonder why the 8080 would choose to focus on something that was outside of the focus box and way in the background. This is especially frustrating with subjects like wire coral gobies or pipefish. With the E330 on single spot focus, I can get things like that into focus much faster. I have to admit that it is not as fast as I thought a DSLR would be but seeing as this is my first one, I have no others to compare against.

As for autofocusing on particles, I think this is a universal problem as the camera does not know what you want to focus on. I try not to use my model lights to avoid illuminating anything between camera and subject. I have a HID light set on pinpoint focus and hold it as far as I can from my camera and point it to my subject. This will help the camera focus on what you want and not other stuff in the water column.

A huge difference with the 8080 is being able to take RAW in real time. The 8080 would take forever to write to the card, I gave up trying and only did SHQ. Now, I can take all my shots in RAW and the flexibility to adjust exposure in the RAW processor in PS is overwhelmingly superb. I am still trying to figure out how best to use all those additional tools. One drawback on the E330 is the USB 1.0 interface for your computer. You will need a card reader, otherwise it will take hours to download a 2GB card full of RAW shots. It is sloooooooooooowwwwwwww!

Liveview A mode is very nice. It will flicker from time to time but not enough to be a nuisance. It is bright and compared to the 8080 screen is big enough to tell whether your shot is in focus or not. It was near impossible with the 8080 with which, on a number of occasions, I would come back to my computer and realize that all 25 shots of something like that really rare and cool baby frogfish were all out of focus !!!! :( I do alot of dawn and night dives and the screen brightness is not a problem for me under those low light conditions.

I can't talk to the firmware for B view as my internet connection is so slow the download will not work for my camera.

HTH
Nick

[alcina]

Nick - great information...I've added this thread to the Pink Link so others can find this info more easily!

[rcolman]

Well, there is NO question that almost any dSLR will significantly outperform a point and shoot. The only drawbackis size, weight and price. My E300 with ikelite housing and dual strobes is BIG and weighs almost 20lbs out of the water.

My original question on this thread was whether the live preview of the E-330 is worth the expense of getting a new camera body and new housing when compared to an E-300!

I may, however, be the first one to actually do an in-water comparison since it appears that no one else has tried to make the switch.

Rick Colman

[sunkarm]

is the speed on E330 on taking shots using Raw format the same as in the SP350 or faster?
thx

[jlyle]

is the speed on E330 on taking shots using Raw format the same as in the SP350 or faster?
thx

The 330 has a buffer that stores up to five images while writing to the card. The SP350 has no buffer, so you have to wait until the camera is through writing to take the next picture.

[sunkarm]

oic.thx:)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

My original question on this thread was whether the live preview of the E-330 is worth the expense of getting a new camera body and new housing when compared to an E-300!

I may, however, be the first one to actually do an in-water comparison since it appears that no one else has tried to make the switch.



Eeerrrr. Sorta not?

I had an E500, E1, and C5060(housed for UW shooting). My C5060 flooded and since a used replacement cost nearly as much as I paid new - they are discontinued now - I just sold the E500 and used the insurance money from the C5060 and the money from the E500 sell to purchase the E330, which I intend to house for UW shooting.

While I haven't housed it yet, I bought it primarily because of the LiveView to shoot UW. Otherwise, its not really any better than the E500, and hardly any better than your E300. To me, the E330 w/LiveView was worth the upgrade for UW photography. I can't wait to use it for that purpose.

[Fota]

I found that low light was an issue when I had the focus mode set for all of the three focus points and the camera had a hard time picking one over the other. Now that I set it to use only the center focus point, I have had no problems. On dawn and night dives, I use a HID canister light and therefore have no light issues as it is very bright.

I guess what we all wonder is if there's any true to this:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/page7.asp

It's hard to know just how dark it really was when they tested, but after reading the review it looks like the A mode is crap is the B mode is the way to go (especially as it now features AF), but then again almost a sec of shutter lag in Mode B, scary (hmm wasn't the non existing shutter lag the main reason for getting an SLR...)!

Please enlighten us!


/Fota

[Fota]

Rick, I can't compare my E330 to any other DSLR, as it is my first. I am coming from the Oly C8080. That said, I really like composing in the liveview screen (the main reason I chose this DSLR over others). It seems to give me more flexibility when taking macro in nooks and crannies as I can maneuver my rig into holes or under corals without having to worry about getting my head in there too. I have to admit that having the liveview, I have yet to need to compose through the viewfinder. I keep telling myself that I have to learn but haven't yet. ;)

The battery lasts for 2 dives with the liveview screen on all the time and after taking 250+ photos, so battery life is not an issue.

If you want to preview photos from the E330, the more recent photos in my gallery were taken with the E330.

So far, I really like the camera.

Excellent photos! What lenses are you using on the E-330?

One thing that I really wonder about the E-330 is:
As it has no focus assist light, the popup flash is to be used as such.
From what I've read, it's supposed to work great. But, what how does this work when you have an external flash (like uw). I mean, will the E-330 trigger the external flash as an auto focus assist?


/Fota

[jlyle]

I guess what we all wonder is if there's any true to this:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/page7.asp

It's hard to know just how dark it really was when they tested, but after reading the review it looks like the A mode is crap is the B mode is the way to go (especially as it now features AF), but then again almost a sec of shutter lag in Mode B, scary (hmm wasn't the non existing shutter lag the main reason for getting an SLR...)!

Please enlighten us!


/Fota

From my limited experience (two dives in cold water) the dpreviewer was wrong. In A mode, the LCD looked just like I expected it to look. I have been shooting an Oly c5050 for years and the LCD looked as bright and clear, only bigger! I was using A mode. I think B mode isn't useful for u/w; you will use this mode when doing macro work from a tripod.

[jlyle]

I mean, will the E-330 trigger the external flash as an auto focus assist?


/Fota

According to the manual, you can do that but it will give you shutter lag! I found the auto-focus to work well in low light and even better when using a modeling light.

[Fota]

From my limited experience (two dives in cold water) the dpreviewer was wrong. In A mode, the LCD looked just like I expected it to look. I have been shooting an Oly c5050 for years and the LCD looked as bright and clear, only bigger! I was using A mode. I think B mode isn't useful for u/w; you will use this mode when doing macro work from a tripod.

Oh, after reading both dpreview and DCRP (www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/e330-review/index.shtml) my impression was the the B mode was the only usable mode! Well, at least when doing uw-macro (not using tripod but I often try to find dead spots to place the camera due to the slow af and shutter in my 7070).
0.7 sec shutter lag is slow (it's what I read the Mode B adds), but my 7070 is way slower than that (especially including the autofocus in low light or tricky conditions, yes I use a focus light). So maybe it's livable for macro shots...?

Maybe it's because you haven't updated the firmware (have you yet)?
"...the new firmware adds support for autofocus in Live View Mode B, and spot metering in macro mode has also been improved."

I really need to go to a photo store and check it out. But I bet they haven't updated the firmware either. ;-)
I'll bring along my 7070 and compare. Hmm perhaps bringing a big jacket and checking under it would be a good idea...


/Fota

[jlyle]

Yes, I updated the firmware. You can now use auto-focus in Mode B, but it requires pressing the AEL button for autofocus and then the shutter to take the picture. There isn't any shutter lag after AF is achieved, but you don't want to move the camera due to the very shallow DOF. The advantage Mode B has when working with a tripod in macro is the ability to expand the image for manual focusing that's very precise (not something you would do u/w).

[Fota]

Yes, I updated the firmware. You can now use auto-focus in Mode B, but it requires pressing the AEL button for autofocus and then the shutter to take the picture. There isn't any shutter lag after AF is achieved,

Very interesting!

Do you need to keep the AEL button pressed down while taking the picture (seems tricky with thick gloves uw), or does it lock the focus when you "click" it?

Hmm lets try to sort this out. Please confirm or deny the following statements.

I mode B with latest firmware:


To get AF you need to click the AEL button.
Clicking the AEL button will lock the focus, so you don't need to keep it pressed while taking the picture.



If you press AEL, after achieving focus there is no shutter lag.



If you do NOT press AEL, you work in manual focus mode and there is a shutter lag of almost 1 sec.



No matter if you press AEL or not, it's possible to expand the picture about 10 times (while composing).




There isn't any shutter lag after AF is achieved, but you don't want to move the camera due to the very shallow DOF. The advantage Mode B has when working with a tripod in macro is the ability to expand the image for manual focusing that's very precise (not something you would do u/w).

I have tried (when diving) several times to work with my 7070 in manual focus mode, but the problem is that its display is not good enough to judge if the object is really sharp. It also has a magnifier but its digital enhanced so called "quality" sucks big time also making it impossible to see when I get it sharp. So, I was looking forward to using mode B and it's enhancer. Especially now when it has AF, as it would give me a chance to see if the AF succeeded or not (my 7070 often fails but it's hard to know until I get home to my computer). Well to me it sounds like great news and very usable. Perhaps not when chasing a fish though. ;-)

I read about the new Panasonic with live view. Even though it costs twice as much as the E-330 the technical specs were less good in all things but one. It featured white balance in the live view. Cool, but it didn't even have a live mode A, only live mode B!
It seems to have copied the technique very much from E-330. I was expecting new much better techniques to show up, but perhaps Oly's Live view ideas weren't that bad after all. And there were many other things that the E-330 did better. Also funny is that what dpreview complained mostly about was the price of the E-330 (which has dropped some since the review), but it seems to be a much better choice than the twice as expensive Panasonic!

[jlyle]

Very interesting!

Do you need to keep the AEL button pressed down while taking the picture (seems tricky with thick gloves uw), or does it lock the focus when you "click" it?

Hmm lets try to sort this out. Please confirm or deny the following statements.

I mode B with latest firmware:


To get AF you need to click the AEL button.
Clicking the AEL button will lock the focus, so you don't need to keep it pressed while taking the picture.



If you press AEL, after achieving focus there is no shutter lag.



If you do NOT press AEL, you work in manual focus mode and there is a shutter lag of almost 1 sec.



No matter if you press AEL or not, it's possible to expand the picture about 10 times (while composing).




No, you don't have to hold down the AEL button; you push it once for auto-focus and then push the shutter button.

Your list is correct except:

If you press the shutter, after achieving focus there is no shutter lag.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I read about the new Panasonic with live view. Even though it costs twice as much as the E-330 the technical specs were less good in all things but one. It featured white balance in the live view. Cool, but it didn't even have a live mode A, only live mode B!
It seems to have copied the technique very much from E-330. I was expecting new much better techniques to show up, but perhaps Oly's Live view ideas weren't that bad after all. And there were many other things that the E-330 did better. Also funny is that what dpreview complained mostly about was the price of the E-330 (which has dropped some since the review), but it seems to be a much better choice than the twice as expensive Panasonic!

Panasonics LiveView camera is a byproduct of the growing partnership between Pany and Olympus in an effort to push the 4/3rds. The E330 uses Panasonic sensor technology and Pany gained the LiveView and dustbuster from Olympus. The DMC L1 is basically a rehoused E330 with Pany software using SD cards.

If you really want to spend even more, you can get the Leica version of the Pany, which is still basically the same with Leica software for almost twice the Pany pricetag :11:

[Fota]

Why is the B mode called the Macro mode?

Can't it be used for any kind of shooting?

The Panasonic DMC L1 and Leica only has the B mode (which they refer to as live mode, not live macro mode). I tested that camera yesterday (in a photo store), it worked like this:

1. Aim/Compose

2. Press shutter half way

3. 1-2 sec (really!) delay.
Longest delay if you went from focusing far away to close.
Lag time from focusing close to pretty close was more like 1 sek.
During this delay time the display was freezed.

4. The display now works again but this it has focused.

5. Press shutter the last part, no delay, picture taken.

So, very similar to E-330's B mode, except that on E-330 you press the AE button instead. Even though I haven't tested the E-330 yet, it seems much easier to press AE button to get focus than to half press. I think half pressing is a pain with thick gloves uw, especially with my Ikelite housing. So, even though Oly solution seemed odd at first I think it makes more sense now.

One good thing with Pany was that it had an optional 4x and 10x. I think the Oly only has 10x. I only tested the 4x and I found it very very usefull for getting and checking focus.

It should be really simple for Oly to fix that in firmware but will they ever bother...!?

Now what do you guys say about all this?

[jlyle]

B Mode is called "macro mode" because the 10X allows for precise focus you need when shooting macro pictures with very shallow DOF. DOF in macro shots can be as thin as a credit card. Using a tripod & B Mode allows you to take pictures of flies, bees, etc. that are in focus. Underwater, B Mode is pretty useless, on the other hand, A Mode works and has minimal shutter lag. As with my 5050, doing macro shots requires some skill and multiple shots to get keepers, especially when you start adding on diopters, extention tubes, and teleconverters!

The shutter lag (or should we call it autofocus lag?) in B Mode is due to the required physical movement of the mirror assembly, shutter speed is unaffected. If the DMC L1 and the Leica cameras only have B Mode, it's a real step backwards, except for microscope work.

This picture was taken in A mode:

http://chemistry.csudh.edu/faculty/jim/E-330/PB122528small.jpg

[Fota]

B Mode is called "macro mode" because the 10X allows for precise focus you need when shooting macro pictures with very shallow DOF. DOF in macro shots can be as thin as a credit card. Using a tripod & B Mode allows you to take pictures of flies, bees, etc. that are in focus. Underwater, B Mode is pretty useless, on the other hand, A Mode works and has minimal shutter lag. As with my 5050, doing macro shots requires some skill and multiple shots to get keepers, especially when you start adding on diopters, extention tubes, and teleconverters!

The shutter lag (or should we call it autofocus lag?) in B Mode is due to the required physical movement of the mirror assembly, shutter speed is unaffected. If the DMC L1 and the Leica cameras only have B Mode, it's a real step backwards, except for microscope work.

This picture was taken in A mode:


Nice picture!

Hmm...
My Oly 7070 also has a 10(?) times enhancer (in both AF and manual mode). The problem is that its display is too small so it's hard to use it unless what you photograph is something very clear with large contrast (like text on a paper), and it requires that I half press the shutter. Half pressing is really hard as it is with the thick gloves I usually wear and with the Ikellite housing lever, so I never manage to press the extra button while half pressing (i.e. uw).

Anyway, I use the super macro mode on my 7070 almost exclusively and photograph things as small as tiny insects (uw). For this I use its small display, crappy AF and huge focus lag. I don't use a tripod uw (of curse ;-)).

So, to me the mode B sounds wonderful. I mean, a large, crystal clear display, precise and trystt AF and even though it has about 1 sec AF lag it's still faster than my 7070 in most situations!
An optional 10x enhancer that may prove to be very useful to see exactly the achieved focus (I would love to see an optional 4x enhancer). To see if I've moved the camera and lost focus etc.
And, a huge benefit (compared to mode B) is that I can see the DOF! That's wonderful, both in macro shots but also in other shots.

When shooting a moving fish, the A mode will be just perfect and something that I also very much look forward to. A fast AF and a large display.

But, perhaps what you are telling me is that mode A works so good, even in macro, that there is no need to use mode B!?

Well, I still have to test the camera (no store has it here!), but at least I've tested the Pany which seems to have the B mode very similar implemented to E-330 (with the benefits of an optional 4x and showing WB). For uw macro work, I think it could work very well. For shooting fish (and other moving creatures or plants) it's useless.

Do you disagree with my thoughts!?


/Fota

[jlyle]

Sounds good to me.

IMHO, "A" mode is going to do the trick for you in macro. Of course, I have not purchased a macro lens (like the sigma 105) with a flat port, but based on my limited experience with the 14-54mm at 54mm, you will be pleased with the camera's operation.