U/w camera for Pro, compact or dslr?

[sunkarm]

Hi,

I have a divebuddy down here in Indonesia. He is a professional photographer. recently he became an u/w photographer. he is so great that Olympus have appointed him to be an olympus Instructor. So he is busy giving lectures and instructing about Olympus camera nationwide. He has also been asked by many reputable diving centre down here to open up an U/W photoraphy workshop. On land he uses a manual SLR. But the funnuy thing is that for u/w pictures he uses C8080 with a Nikonos strobe 105SB and old Ikelite strobe, he doesn't use DSLR of any kind.
So my question is, do u/w pros really need to use dslr to make great shots? My dive buddy did not do so, and now he has been asked by the local province of Papua to be one of the Jury/judges of u/w pictures taken in Rajaampat.
However, he does have a plan to get E330 with its housing.
Thx for the commenst from the pros.

[ThatsSomeBadHatHarry]

Thx for the commenst from the pros.

this does not apply to me but....

I have seen many incredible photos posted on this board alone that could be money-makers by divers without dslr cameras

[Peter Guy]

As so many people have said, good pictures come from the eye behind the lens. The modern digitals are technically good enough to let those with "the eye" create beautiful images that I can only dream about.

[Mike Veitch]

yep, its the photographer, not the camera..

[AUTiger]

If we were wise underwater photographers, we would spend more money on classes/experience and less on new camera gear. Of course I say this after just having bought a D80 dSLR and a new housing!

Its kind of like driving/racing cars. Every hotshot with $500 burning a hole in his pocket asks what new hardware he should buy. The best way to spend that money is almost always to take a driving class! A skilled driver can make even a basic Civic outperform an untrained driver in a performance vehicle.

David

[Mo2vation]

There are very few things a Compact P&S can do (except for the multi-lens thing) that a DSLR can't do as well or better.

There is nearly nothing a DSLR can do that a compact P&S can do better.

You will not see the major differences online, as the DSLR image is been dumbed down considerably so you can view it online. The lenses are better, the image sensor bigger and the light management is simply better on a DSLR. There are very few exceptions, so put down the keyboards. But as a category, they are as different as Pepsi and Tomato Juice.

That's not to say that a compact P&S can't get great shots. It can. But the finest P&S simply cannot hold the pixels of a housed up DSLR. Lighting, features, menu, versatility - DSLR wins. Period.

Having shot digital exclusively since 1997, and UW P&S for years, and a UW DSLR for about 14 months, I can tell you I'll never go back to a P&S. No way.

That said, the camera's job is to get out of the way of the artist. DSLR's just do a better job of getting out of the way.

Anyone who tells you its the camera is trying to sell you something.

Its never the Camera.

---
Ken

[bladephotog]

Of course it's mostly the photographer. However, there are reasons why most pro photographers shoot SLR or DSLR. One less obvious reason is that many magazines set standards that P&S cameras can't reach.

Look at it this way. Give David Doubilet a good P&S and he'll out shoot me any day of the week. Give me a DSLR and I'll out shoot just about anything I do with a P&S.

I've been a pro photojournalist for 15 years so I did okay UW with the P&S I was using last year. I published two newpaper stories and one magazine story with another one in the works with my P&S system. But the limitations of that system pushed me to get a housed DSLR system this year and I don't regret it. My images are much, much better.

[alcina]

It also depends on what you mean by "pro" and what the intent for images is.

If you're primarily shooting for National Geographic, I don't think a compact as your main rig will do the job. If you're primarily teaching uw photo, a compact might be just the thing as it's relevant to your students, produces great results and offers all the controls etc that you will need to accomplish your goal.

If the image is good enough, magazines will publish from compacts. DSLRs do have advantages for publishing, but sometimes publishing isn't the primary goal and so jumping into slr isn't a must.

Seems like your friend is doing just fine with the gear he already has so I think that answers the question quite nicely.

Most everything else has been said already above.

[Warren_L]

There is the tendency by some to assume it is more about the equipment than it is ability, which I do find at times frustrating. It's not that having decent and proper equipment isn't important; knowing how to use it and having the skills is a much larger piece of the pie than the gear. I was recently asked by someone I know, why my pictures had absolutely no silt or particles in them as they were crystal clear. He asked if that's where photoshop came in. I wasn't too sure where to start explaining that the best way to have no silt is not to create any to begin with....

[bladephotog]

Many people's reactions to improving in ANY endeavor is to spend more money. When I was bicycle racing we used to laugh at these old guys spending tons of money on the fastest wheelsets and lightest bikes when they weren't that fast to begin with.
Now that I'm one of the "old" guys I see things differently.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that better gear can only do so much. The greatest camera in the world is not going to compose a picture better for you. Nor is it going to tell you when to trip the shutter.

But better gear can level the playing field. If you have the money feel free to buy the best stuff you can. I won't judge. There are certain photographic fields that require specialized gear and there is no way around it.

One other point. There is one big advantage to a compact P&S system and that's it's smaller size. It's much easier to tote a small system over a DSLR system underwater. Therefore one might be more apt to take it on every dive, lessening the chance of missing something.

If you're happy with the gear you have and the results you're getting than don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

Back to the OP's question - "So my question is, do u/w pros really need to use dslr to make great shots?" The short answer is no.

[Gilligan]

...the best way to have no silt is not to create any to begin with....

http://kayakdiver.com/animated/73.gif

[Gilligan]

There is one big advantage to a compact P&S system and that's it's smaller size. It's much easier to tote a small system over a DSLR system underwater. Therefore one might be more apt to take it on every dive, lessening the chance of missing something.

Good point you made. A P&S is also much easier to transport on trips as it all fits in a carry-on bag.

The P&S also allows you to shoot whatever you encounter underwater by having along macro and wide angle wet-mount lenses.

[Mo2vation]

Many people's reactions to improving in ANY endeavor is to spend more money. When I was bicycle racing we used to laugh at these old guys spending tons of money on the fastest wheelsets and lightest bikes when they weren't that fast to begin with.
Now that I'm one of the "old" guys I see things differently.


As they say in Mad Max, "speed is just a question of money - how fast do you want to go...?" In the music world, tone is a question of zeros... Craftsmanship and quality matter in an instrument. My early 90's DW's sound better than your 2004 Tama's. Deal. A 74 Martin crushes a 2005 Takamine...

In the photo world, clarity & sharpness are directly related to zeros. Directly.

That said, you need to separate art from technology. A $10,000 rig will take bad pics if you're a dufus underwater and have no eye for composition. But a great rig is better at staying out of the way, and the $10,000 rig will (all things being equal) deliver a sharper image than a $2,500 rig.

You can't buy your way into a more pleasing image - and that I believe is what you're trying to convey. You can buy your way into a sharper image.

I often tell this story: Whenever I post an image, or show my stuff to people, the women always ask questions like this:

"where was that shot?" "What kind of creature is that?" "When was that...?"


Guys always ask the same question: "what camera did you shoot that with...."


---
Ken

[Gilligan]

I often tell this story: Whenever I post an image, or show my stuff to people, the women always ask questions like this:

"where was that shot?" "What kind of creature is that?" "When was that...?"

Guys always ask the same question: "what camera did you shoot that with...."

---
Ken

Hence the age old expression:
"the difference between men and boys is the price of their toys":D

[bladephotog]

That said, you need to separate art from technology.

You can't buy your way into a more pleasing image - and that I believe is what you're trying to convey. You can buy your way into a sharper image.


---
Ken

You can't seperate art from technology, not in a technological world. I'm not saying that a great system is going to make a great photographer. But it can help you become better. So yes, you can buy your way into a more pleasing image. Like I said earlier though, it won't make you David Doubilet. But better gear helps.

Here's an example of buying your way into a more pleasing image. Many people dump their P&S systems because of the frustratingly slow shutter lag. They are tired of getting nothing but fish butts. A DSLR, with substantially less shutter lag, can decrease the amount of fish butts you are getting. You still have to focus, compose and light the scene. But now you have one less problem to worry about, allowing you to concentrate on the other issues at hand.

As for a great rig staying out of the way, tell that to the IMAX folks. I don't think their rig stayed out of the way of anything. Yet their footage is astounding. The best rig isn't always the easiest to use. That's why is imperative that no matter what you use you are completely comfortable using it. You have to be able to work all of the controls without looking at them.

This is something I feel strongly about. I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell the truth but sometimes you just gotta cough up the money to get the better shot. I do a lot of guest speaking on photojournalism, nature photography and occasionally UW photography. And especially in nature photography, I get a lot of people who ask "how can I get shots like yours of those little warblers with my P&S?" And the short answer is you can't. You need the gear. The gear costs money. Period.

Take your guitar analogy. I'm a crappy guitarist by most standards. But when I bought a Martin, even though it's an entry level Martin, my playing got much better. Why? Several reasons. It's an easier guitar to play. It sounds better. I was more excited about playing so I practiced more. More practice equals better playing.

Again, I'm not trying to say a great rig will turn a crappy photographer into an award winner. 95% of great photography comes from your brain. But don't discount that 5%.

The point I'm really trying to make is that better gear will even out the technological playing field. After that it's all in your head.

[Mo2vation]

We're saying the same thing.

This is not directed towards you - but this is why I make hundreds (sometimes well into a thousand) images a month, and never post in this photo forum, never enter contests, never dispense photo thoughts or advice. There's just very little I can offer.

I'd rather shoot than talk about shooting. I take a big rig into a harsh environment, through pounding surf and sand, and I shoot in dark, cold low viz conditions in and around SoCal.

I have very little in common with most of the photographers here and elsewhere.

I'll leave now.

K

[Warren_L]

'd rather shoot than talk about shooting. I take a big rig into a harsh environment, through pounding surf and sand, and I shoot in dark, cold low viz conditions in and around SoCal.


Welcome to my world..... :)

[bladephotog]

Welcome to my world..... :)

Ditto!:D

[louisianadiver]

It's true that many modern compacts are capable of producing professional quality images, and it's obvious that many such images have been made. However, every pro I know uses a variety of SLR's, digital or film, simply because of the flexibility they provide. -Clay

[CrazyScuba]

Hey sunkarm
If you love to dive (actually enjoy the diving experience) and want to take pictures that will knock your socks off go with a Sea & Sea P&S (fun and easy to get great pictures with). If you dive only to take great pictures then go with DSLR and when the dive is over look back and see if you had any fun on that dive.
Britt :fish:
:fish:

[alcina]

Hey sunkarm
If you love to dive (actually enjoy the diving experience) and want to take pictures that will knock your socks off go with a Sea & Sea P&S (fun and easy to get great pictures with). If you dive only to take great pictures then go with DSLR and when the dive is over look back and see if you had any fun on that dive.
Britt :fish:
:fish:

Ummm...I don't know where to begin LOL!

The Sea&Sea is a nice happy snapper but "great pictures" and "knock your socks off" wouldn't be how I would describe things. You sure can have fun, though.

And I have a fabulous time with my slr rig - each and every dive. Pretty sure which camera you use has nothing to do with if you have fun or not :D

I always like to see different people's perspectives - it's one of the things that makes this board great.

[bladephotog]

The amount of fun I'm having on a dive with my DSLR is directly related to how well the system is working. If the camera is working but the strobes aren't, then I'm less happy. If nothing is working then I'm not happy at all.:D And we all know that when taking cameras underwater things happen.

Fortunately I have few problems now. I make sure to take the time to properly assemble my rig. And then I test everything before splashing in. I had more problems with my P&S flash which used a fiber optic cable. It often wouldn't fire and that just bummed me out.

[alcina]

I can relate to that, but I have to say I still have enormous fun - yesterday I took my new second strobe down for the first time and had no clue how to run it (what? read the manual??). It was firing the preflash but not the real one hehehehe, I didn't bother to figure it out while under there, I just toddled on and did my own thing. Luckily back on the boat my bud told me to pay attention to the little knob and it was all systems go on the second dive.

But not having the strobe fire and not being able to do what I set out to do didn't detract at all from how much fun I had nor how many very cool things I saw! My theory is that I just don't take the whole photo thing too seriously - if it starts to get in the way, I'd give it up!

[bladephotog]

What are manuals? :D

[alo100]

You can't seperate art from technology, not in a technological world. I'm not saying that a great system is going to make a great photographer. But it can help you become better. So yes, you can buy your way into a more pleasing image. Like I said earlier though, it won't make you David Doubilet. But better gear helps.

Here's an example of buying your way into a more pleasing image. Many people dump their P&S systems because of the frustratingly slow shutter lag. They are tired of getting nothing but fish butts. A DSLR, with substantially less shutter lag, can decrease the amount of fish butts you are getting. You still have to focus, compose and light the scene. But now you have one less problem to worry about, allowing you to concentrate on the other issues at hand.

As for a great rig staying out of the way, tell that to the IMAX folks. I don't think their rig stayed out of the way of anything. Yet their footage is astounding. The best rig isn't always the easiest to use. That's why is imperative that no matter what you use you are completely comfortable using it. You have to be able to work all of the controls without looking at them.

This is something I feel strongly about. I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell the truth but sometimes you just gotta cough up the money to get the better shot. I do a lot of guest speaking on photojournalism, nature photography and occasionally UW photography. And especially in nature photography, I get a lot of people who ask "how can I get shots like yours of those little warblers with my P&S?" And the short answer is you can't. You need the gear. The gear costs money. Period.

Take your guitar analogy. I'm a crappy guitarist by most standards. But when I bought a Martin, even though it's an entry level Martin, my playing got much better. Why? Several reasons. It's an easier guitar to play. It sounds better. I was more excited about playing so I practiced more. More practice equals better playing.

Again, I'm not trying to say a great rig will turn a crappy photographer into an award winner. 95% of great photography comes from your brain. But don't discount that 5%.

The point I'm really trying to make is that better gear will even out the technological playing field. After that it's all in your head.



I strongly agree with you with the shutter lag issue; from my point of view instead of saying P&S it is impossible to minimize the shutter lag for P&S camera, I would think it can be done easily with extra buffer. It seems to me that the manufacturers just do not want to do it, maybe they are trying to a gapbetween P&S and DSLR. To a certain extend, when I am using a P&S, my shooting behavior is changed, I always keep in mind that I should try v. hard to press the shutter button ahead of time. Well, sometimes it does work and sometimes it doesn't.

Then other issue for P&S, I think is about lighting, if the lighting is taken care of, P&S can actually do a lot in terms of offering good images.

[sunkarm]

i use sp350 but haven't dove with it yet. previously i was using sony p9 but i got it flooded because i did not close the casing properly.