What's up with poorly equiped Public Safety divers?

[JT2]

I got to watch one of our local Public Safety dive teams practice today, and was I ever surprised! They did have on some nice looking flourescent orange drysuits, but from there it got way worse, they had old Sherwood jacket style BC's on and they were all using Air2's instead of a regular back up. Also, when they were practicing doing evidence searches there was only one diver in the water at a time, they did have what they called a back up diver ready to go in the water, I guess they splash the back up if they don't see bubbles coming from the primary diver anymore, however, they did have a rope tied to the diver in the water, which I might add got tangled up many many times. When it was time to practice wearing doubles, they brought out the two sets of doubles they had and on both sets there was only one first stage attached, and it was on the divers left side, no long hose, and they still used the Air2's. The tanks were connected using isolation manifolds, but the only thing on the valve on the right side was a valve plug, and the most interesting thing was the way they had the doubles rigged to the old Sherwood BC's. I am not an expert or extremely experienced diver, but I can tell you that these guys were horrible divers, and when I talked to a few of them, they stated that since they had become rescue divers they had not been in the water, but they were out thre today because they are required to go out a few times a year to keep their skills up...haha...Oh yea, another thing I thought was interesting was that out of the three I talked to, none of them had more than 30 logged dives, including training dives, how is this possible? Is this the norm around the country or was this group just a bad example?

[trymixdiver]

yikes

makes you wonder who is going to rescue the rescue divers.

Andy

[Dee]

Whoever's in charge of the Rescue 'Department' obviously doesn't have a clue. I have friends in law enforcement rescue departments and they have very strict rules, regulations, and requirements for personell as well as gear.

As for their gear, proper rescue gear can be very expensive and some Depts. are dependant on donated gear or they use their own...both of which is dangerous.

I hope these guys a never called out!

[Arduous]

Unfortunately public safety divers are under the thumb of budget constraints and the control of their municipality. I do search & rescue work for a police agency. Unfortunately, the agency picks, purchases and maintains the equipment. Training is also under the thumb of the budget as training is not free. You can’t always place the blame on the divers for the equipment or their method of training. Most times this is governed by the agency and out of the divers control. You may ask then why do the divers dive, when they may know better ? For the most part they do it because they care. They want to recover that lost person so that the family can have closure, or get that piece of evidence that puts the bad guy away. As for how they dive. Public safety diving is not recreational diving. Public safety divers are trained to go into waters that recreational divers are trained to avoid. Stormy seas zero visibility..ect. When searching a small area where the target is believed to be,it is not uncommon to send only one diver down, with another diver in the ready. Again may or may not be the divers choice. Who actually dives and who stays on the surface is also not the individual divers call. This decision is made for him or her by those in charge and those in charge may or may not even be divers. That’s just the way it is. So don’t judge the way you dive with the way public safety divers dive. It’s not even close to being the same thing.

……………Arduous

[Uncle Pug]

Poorly equipped & trained < budget constraints & fossils in charge


Single diver down on rope (sometimes rope includes com link) with a line tender controlling the divers search by com and/or line signals with standby diver ready to go down the line is SOP for searchs in low or no viz. Public safety divers can turn the best viz into low or no viz almost immediately.

[Aquamaniac]

The equipment and technique issues listed above are not isolated to the USA.
In Oz we share the same issues.

One day the SES will take over dive rescue:D :D
They have more money than anyone!!!!

Dave

[JT2]

Personally, if the reason these people do this is because they care so much, then why don't they go out and practice diving on their own to better their skills? I understand that it is different from recreational diving, but I am talking about basic dive skills here, these guys had trouble with very simple tasks. And as a side note, I simply meant to relay the fact that I thought it was a sad situation, and I realize it might not be the divers faults, but these guys were sitting complaining that they had to come out and practice two or three times a year, I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem like a very caring atitude to me. Quite honestly I'm wondering if there is something that I could do to try to help this situation by bringing it to someone's attention, because believe me I feel for these guys havin to work with the equipment that they have and the small amount of training they've got. They simply found a PADI instructor who let them sign up and take OW through rescue back to back etc... This is the only training they have. My question is, how does this make them qualified to be public safety divers who God forbid might be called upon to save someone's life? I guess I just see it a little differently than you do Arduous, I think the divers have to take some of the responsibility!

[reefraff]

Great care should be taken comparing recreational divers with public safety divers: they have a whole different set of objectives, techniques, equipment, tolerances, etc. Sort of like comparing a guy that hunts deer with a professional soldier - there are some similarities but the analogy breaks down pretty quickly.

There are even major differences from army to army. Afghani's may fight like hell when cornered and certainly have a lot more experience than most soldiers, but stack them up against an army with modern equipment, techniques...

It does kind of sound like the PSD's you were watching had more in common with a third-world backwater than good ol' USofA.

Steven

[JT2]

Pug, I can assure you that these guys were not using a com system, and the closest they came to using rope signals was when one of the line tenders said," I can't feel him on the rope anymore, he must have unhooked or gotten it tangled like he usually does, give him a few more minutes then send down the other diver." That's Scary!!

[Uncle Pug]

JT2 once bubbled...
That's Scary!!
...that is not only scary but it is also SOP for agencies where budget constraints determine training and fossils are in charge.

Even if they have the right PSD equipment and proceedures... if they do not have the training it is a farce. Kinda like an internet DIR diver.

[JT2]

Even if they have the right PSD equipment and proceedures... if they do not have the training it is a farce. Kinda like an internet DIR diver. So very true!

[ages]

I don't know about a lot of dive teams, but I am a member of our SEAS team. We are the underwater rescue and recovery team in Juneau Alaska. We are all volunteer. All our equipment is purchased by ourselves. We do not all have the latest and greatest, but we are required to keep our gear tuned up frequently. In addition, each of us is required to spend a minimum of 3 hours underwater each month (even in the dead of winter when the temp is well below freezing and the winds are howling).

Drills and practice sessions are the times to get out, and make mistakes. Having been on call-outs, believe me, you want to make all your mistakes in training sessions. In addition, when we have divers or tenders in training, the sessions may look pretty aweful. Again it is a learning time.

We do a great deal of work tended....single diver in the water, safety diver at ready, and a tender with a line between them and you. Underwater com gear is very expensive....most of us cannot afford it. We work in dark, cold, very low viz conditions. These are often not good conditions to have "buddy teams" in the water. You can cover a great deal of ground using a circular and sweep pattern.

While the team you watched may not have met your higher standards, I recommend you volunteer to become a member. Perhaps your experience and training could add some professionalism to the group. But, if like ours, don't come in as a know-it-all, they are not appreciated either!!

ages

[randyjoy]

The sad thing is that few Instructors know anything about Public Safety (PS) diving, yet the department is lead to believe that any scuba instructor can teach public safety diving.

I've sat and chatted with some teams that are basically clueless about what equipment is needed, the appropriate procedures for PS diving, how to conduct a proper search, and what to do afterwards. Many times, the "recovery" is done by the only divers handy: the local dive club or shop. This destroys any chain of evidence that would be usable in court (99% of a PSD's dive time is evidence recovery, NOT body recovery).

An agency can't just decide one day to start a dive team and have it operational. Takes months and months of practice and training to even get to be an entry level PS diver, IMHO.

(Unfortunately, I'm a poorly funded PS Diver, but our agency does let me run all the training, so in another year, we might be operational. For an official case, I won't let them in the water yet).

[Rick Murchison]

All you whining about the quality of public safety divers.. what are you doing about it? Have you volunteered yet? Offered a training program? Approached your politicians with a plan to better use available funds?
Anyone can whine.
To fix it you have to get up and go do something.
And more taxes, by the way, won't fix anything.
Rick
(Our situation is as bad as anyone's - but we're actively training, cajoling, urging and improving. You can too.)

[JT2]

Believe me Rick, I am going to see what I can do to better the situation, although it is going to take more than just myself. As far as volunteering goes, I would love to, but our local guys are all firemen and police officers, that is the prerequisite, and that counts me out.

[Aquamaniac]

Rick.
Thats a very good point, and im interested in the results of that question.

In western Australia, we have an agency called the State Emergency Service.
This is a group of volunteers (over 5000), who train at least once a week in search and rescue techniques.
In the event of a missing person, natural disater , or anything that requires manpower, the SES is called to duty.
They also provide support to the Fire Department.

The Service is divided into regional centres, and every centre is funded by its own local government. Each centre has its own specialties depending on the surrounding environment. Ie, a division that lies next to a river will be flood trained, a division that lies in the hills will be CRT (cliff rescue) trained.
Each division has its own Headquarters and buildings, complete with emergency vehicles and equipment.
If bad weather effects housing and people, the SES are out there in the wind and rain covering houses/patching roofs/clearing trees.

All of this is done with volunteers, its a great heart warming service.

I was a Team leader with Stirling SES (in WA) for 3 years before moving to the USA, since being here I have been looking for anything similar, and have yet to find it.
Before leaving, I was in the process of accrediting our unit with Dive rescue.
Perhaps this kind of thing could work over here?

http://www.ses.wa.gov.au

[Arduous]

We don’t see things differently JT2. The team you described has no business doing public safety diving. If they are only OW & AOW, then how do they know how to conduct a proper search. If they are not rescue certified, then how could they help each other out of a jam, never mind anyone else. ? And I said most do it because they care not all. Diving is no different than any other activity you can do. In any activity there are those who are exceptional , those who are average, those who are less than average and then those who should have stayed home. I work for a municipality. I have seen good cops and bad cops. I have seen good firemen and bad firemen and the bad ones have no business being out there………………….Arduous

[ages]

Our underwater search and recovery used to be part of the Fire Department. They fell into the failure to practice, etc. While the city provided them with equipment, it was old and not maintained. After we had a young man die in a personal watercraft accident and no one searched for him (do to whatever politics were at play in the fire department), our volunteer team formed. We have slowly removed the search and recovery from the Fire Department and now have City provided pagers. We are called out by the City police dispatchers (or by the State Troopers for remote search and recovery). Our team has worked with the National Guard for BlackHawk training, worked with the Coast Guard, trained with Swift Water Rescue, SEADOGS, etc. It is hard work and a huge commitment of time....but very much worth it. If you have a team that is in such disarray, and you are willing to make the commitment, I say go for it. But be prepared to take a couple years to get accomplished, accepted, and used. ages

[AquaTec]

Most SAR dive teams in both the USA and Canada are volunteer organizations. Yes some are limited to Fire Departments or Police. But there are a lot of areas that will use volunteer help.

So like Rick said, get out there and volunteer your time, expertise, etc.

As for the way they dive don't be too eager to criticize it is different. You should dive alone, holding onto a line [not tied to it], have a proper support team above water, etc, etc.
and you can expect black water, dead decomposed bodies, tedious searches for small stuff. Politics at every corner, bad gear, children drowning. And a real feeling of accomplishment that will last a life time the first time you save someone’s life

you can receive training from the organizations attached here

http://www.diverescueintl.com/
http://www.iadrs.org/
http://www.teamlgs.com/

Dive Rescue International is the most widely recognized

As for gear, most teams will let you provide your own gear, unless they have a set standard for gear which in that case they usually provide it for you.

[Bob3]

Public Safety Diving uses gear & techniques way different than sport diving, so don't be suprised if you run into a brick wall when trying to "translate" between the two.
Check out the links AquaTec posted & read up on things a bit.
If you're REALLY interested, at least a couple of those outfits listed offer PSD courses.

The biggest no-nos I see listed in the post are:
no pony
using doubles
and the most grevious: lack of experience (probably lacking in training as well).

Some sport items that don't work out well for PSDing:
wings
doubles
long hoses (unless diving surface air)
in-water buddy
vented fins

[MikeFerrara]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
All you whining about the quality of public safety divers.. what are you doing about it? Have you volunteered yet? Offered a training program? Approached your politicians with a plan to better use available funds?
Anyone can whine.
To fix it you have to get up and go do something.
And more taxes, by the way, won't fix anything.
Rick
(Our situation is as bad as anyone's - but we're actively training, cajoling, urging and improving. You can too.)

I have offered training to public safety divers at no charge if the department doesn't have the budget for it. Guess how many takers I have had. The local teams are the worst I have ever seen. Most are new divers almost all are inexperienced. We have had local team divers die in training. They still don't get it. More will die.

They need divers for this kind of work not Firemen and police officers who get a c-card to get on the team. The whole thing is a political mess.

[Butch103]

......Has OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) dive teams. They are responsible (from my limited knowledge) for diving for criminal evidence and body recovery. Problem is, too few teams and long distances to go. I believe they are well trained and use up too date <?> equipment.....Don't know if any other canucks can elaborate or not......:boom:

[gjmmotors]

As a public safety diver, I have had my run in with red tape and smiles with promises attached.
All my gear is my own. I pay for all of my training, and I try to be in the water every weekend, at my own cost.
Being a volunteer, you do not get paid and you are under the public's eye everytime you go out, and the public doesent understand what is going on down by the water.
No class will prepare you for what you do in P.S. diving. They will help you and the way you do things, but the only way to be safe and be efficient is to practice.
There are no standards for P.S. Diving. A Padi or Naui ow cert will most likely get you in trouble or killed.
I am padi rescue certified and I was very disappointed in what the course covered.
Your first drowning vic is something you will never forget, and there is no class in the world that will prepare you for it.

The aforementioned teams skill and gear were lacking, But the most important thing to lack is desire and will. And by complaning about diving 3 times a year, im glad they dont get called out.
-gjm

[WillAbbott]

very interesting post to read being as sitting on my desk right now is an application for my local Sheriff's Office Dive team (volunteer team)

What I know of our local team is this: Volunteer, Mandatory training (don't know how offten, but it states on the application willing to train no matter what the conditions) theres currently 12 people on it, I would say an average sized county for Oregon, They don't have much equipment yet (6sets of gear all signed out to divers currently).

I do know that the Sgt. In charge told me they will work with me, if I have to rent gear or whatever, being as you pretty much need gear since they don't currently have enough. You only need to be OW certified... Which I'm waiting to finish certification till applying (1week till OW dives) and thats about it. Though OW cert is all thats required I'm allready planning to get to rescue diver (PADI) as soon as I can, possibly able to get Adv OW right after OW cert.

I plan to join the team for many reasons. 1 is I eventually want to be a full time Deputy at this agency (after school) and what better way to get known than joining the Dive team (esspecially since I'm going to be on the Reserves (Volunteer Deputies) as well) 2 its a good way to meet 12 other divers in the area 3 I get dive practice/training in (be it fun or not its still experince and training) 4 it looks good on a resume ;) 5 I like helping my community etc. Sounds like a good way to do that to me :D

Also I talked to a former Rescue Diver/ Current Police Officer and one of the employees about it at my LDS They said often what does happen, and if it does start to happen I will quit the team. Is that many guys get involved in the Dive Team, and lose interest in Rec. Diving.. they being only doing Dive Team dives and never dive for fun any more. Not sure why that is... maybe they get tired of all the training dives and decide to only go diving when they must. If I get to that point, I will quit the dive in a heart beat and then go find the best dive site I can and hit it as soon as I can to get back into the Joys of diving.

Anyways, Great reading all the comments being as I do want to join my Local Dive Team,

[AquaTec]

gjmmotors once bubbled...

There are no standards for P.S. Diving. A Padi or Naui ow cert will most likely get you in trouble or killed.
I am padi rescue certified and I was very disappointed in what the course covered.
Your first drowning vic is something you will never forget, and there is no class in the world that will prepare you for it.


Hats off to you for doing what others don't. I have delt with many victims of terrible events and three of the four that i still see are the children underwater that i found or didn't find.

Good for you for taking it upon yourself to get traning and gear.

as for standards don't even look at recreational agencies or even technical. look at dive rescue international. see my previouse post. they provide very good standards. and equipment for your team.

[MikeFerrara]

WillAbbott,

I don't know how to say this so it really sinks in. I would prefer to be shaking you while I talk to help it sink in.

Any dive team that will send an OW diver out on a call is criminally dangerous. I have seen it first hand.

There are standards for public safety diving and if your department doesn't provide or at least require the training and the right equipment please please please have nothing to do with them.

You will go into the water looking for one of two things generally. The first is dead people. Dead people are in no hurry. If they want someone to go get them have them get someone who is qualified and equiped. The other is evidence. No hurry here either. If they want it let them invest the money and the time required to put together a qualified team.



DON'T DO IT!

[WillAbbott]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
WillAbbott,

I don't know how to say this so it really sinks in. I would prefer to be shaking you while I talk to help it sink in.

Any dive team that will send an OW diver out on a call is criminally dangerous. I have seen it first hand.

There are standards for public safety diving and if your department doesn't provide or at least require the training and the right equipment please please please have nothing to do with them.

You will go into the water looking for one of two things generally. The first is dead people. Dead people are in no hurry. If they want someone to go get them have them get someone who is qualified and equiped. The other is evidence. No hurry here either. If they want it let them invest the money and the time required to put together a qualified team.



DON'T DO IT!


Hmm... Interesting point for sure. I'm sure the reasons they are like this is mainly money. Also they may be a fairly new team, not sure. I do know that they have 6 sets of equipment that they have just started getting equipment. And this is the same agency who just months ago alsmost ran out of money to operate because of a recount on the levy for money for them, it passed by 2 votes, without it they were out of operating money period. I don't think they get too many call outs. And there are other teams near by. and knowing how the training standards are for most other things at this agency I would figure that though they only require OW cert. That they train you themselves. Someone previously mentioned that even Rescue diver couldnt train/prepare you for PS Diver, maybe they've realized that and do all the training themselves and won't send you out on a call until they deem you qualified? I don't know either way I plan on going to Rescue Diver ASAP thru PADI and not stopping there.

Unfortunately there are soo many bonuses for me at this point in joining a team like this its hard to way it evenly against the "bad".

I assure you that if I join and find that no further training is done/needed and that the team is not very safe I will firstly point it out to the Sgt. in charge, and imediattely quit. If he want's me back he will have to change the team first. But I really would like to give them the benifit of the doubt and try it first. I assure you I won't do anything dangerous, even if they say I have to. But being as I want to be hired on this agency full time in the next year or so (after school is done) getting known there by participating in the Reserves and Dive Team and anything else I can get involved in will help tremendously when the time comes to apply for a full time position. So its hard to over look the Dive Team without first trying it or getting somewhat involved to see exactly how they run it.

Maybe I'm being nieve (spelling?) and feel free to tell me so. I respect any and all opinions/information from those more knowlageble. Its just hard to overlook this opportunity when it could have soo much to do with my career in the future and getting a job.

[MikeFerrara]

Also be warry of home grown training. There are agencies that specialize in this stuff and that is the training you want After you get a solid foundation in the basics.

[weight_for_me]

Butch103 once bubbled...
......Has OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) dive teams. They are responsible (from my limited knowledge) for diving for criminal evidence and body recovery. Problem is, too few teams and long distances to go. I believe they are well trained and use up too date <?> equipment.....Don't know if any other canucks can elaborate or not......:boom:
Yeah..thats pretty much sums it up...the key being "recovery". As a FD training officer, I ALWAYS ensure we have redundant systems in place before practice, especially with the Ice Water Rescue. You can never be too prepared.
Randy...

[Big-t-2538]

Where I am in Dayton, I am one of the volunteers that goes out and helps with evidence search and recovery. Yes, I am resue certified, and yes we do train. However, I consider us very lucky in the fact that my instructor is also a member of the local PD. Granted, we are still volunteers, and there is a very limited budget, but my instructor gets to call the shots. She says who, how, when, where, etc. She is very knowledgable and IMHO, one of the best out there. Almost all the work we do is in some crummy dump lake where you are happy to see how much air you have left if you cram the gauge against your mask.

Unfortunately, this used to be a joint effort between the PD and the FD, but recently the FD had their dive team cut because of budget constraints. It seemed silly, because the month before it was cut, they pulled two people out of the river by one dam here in Dayton. The city said it wasn't worth having the dive team around. These guys were trained by my instructor, and I had worked with them before. As for the other guys I volunteer with, it is very nice because I do most (I would say 95%) of my recreational diving with the same people. We know each other very well, and usually know what the other is thinking.

Well, I think we are lucky in this sense. And I hope that the PD continues their thinking in this manner. I would hate to see unquailfied indviduals taking risks that they aren't trained to take.

[indypddiver]

Hi there,

As a public safety diver for a relatively large police department in the midwest, I'd like to say that the attitudes or skills of the PSDs seen in Texas are not indicative of the teams with which I'm familiar. As most probably know, there are many factors that influence the skill or perceived skill of PSDs (budget, experience, length of time that the team has been active, and most importantly: number of dives/runs the team takes in a given year). I can only speak from my personal experience, but the first post on this topic stated that the PSDs in Texas had on average less than 30 dives per man. That is hard to believe if true! A candidate for our team must already be at a minimum an open water certified diver, with experience, to join the team. Also, the equipment that the PSDs in Texas were using is incredibly out-dated. We may not have the newest, top of the line gear, but its certainly more than adequate.

The things seen at the training dive in Texas lead me to believe that the team was probably made of volunteers, or was a very new team, and that they did not handle many scuba calls as a whole. No knock against volunteers, they are great people. Its just that volunteers are just that and do not have the advantage of time to train, as a team, like guys who are paid to do so. Also, if they had not been in the water "since becoming rescue divers", that should set off a huge red flag! We train atleast one day per month on top of the 130 or so scuba calls we take each year on average. So, we are in the water quite a bit, several times a month. I'm not sure that I'd want that particular team attempting a rescue on me.

Lastly, I have done my fair share of diving. The guys I dive with are excellent divers. Some of the very best I've ever seen. More importantly, they love to do it. You would never hear us complaining about having to train or dive. As a whole, we are a very professional, very experienced (over 200 years of diving on the team), very safety conscious group of PSDs. I hope that this tidbit of info about another PSD team has answered your question. No, what you saw in Texas is NOT the norm.

Thanks,

indypddiver

[GTADiver]

Butch 103 mentioned:
......Has OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) dive teams. They are responsible (from my limited knowledge) for diving for criminal evidence and body recovery. Problem is, too few teams and long distances to go. I believe they are well trained and use up too date <?> equipment...
Thanks to Harris cuts the team has been hurt drastically. They are all out of Gravenhurst. I guess its good for their overtime. They are restricted to a max depth of a 100 feet. Having spoken to other police dept's divers they just laugh and say....OPP the other peoples police. They get their gear from the recoveries.

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

Hey I thought you were gone! Check out the Montecello team and let us know what you think.

BTW, I heard from a couple of your guys. I sent them some info they asked for but never heard back. I don't remember their names or for that matter where I wrote them down. It seems the fd instructor had a pretty sweet deal.

[MNScuba]

Couldn't have said it better myself...


Arduous once bubbled...
Unfortunately public safety divers are under the thumb of budget constraints and the control of their municipality. I do search & rescue work for a police agency. Unfortunately, the agency picks, purchases and maintains the equipment. Training is also under the thumb of the budget as training is not free. You can’t always place the blame on the divers for the equipment or their method of training. Most times this is governed by the agency and out of the divers control. You may ask then why do the divers dive, when they may know better ? For the most part they do it because they care. They want to recover that lost person so that the family can have closure, or get that piece of evidence that puts the bad guy away. As for how they dive. Public safety diving is not recreational diving. Public safety divers are trained to go into waters that recreational divers are trained to avoid. Stormy seas zero visibility..ect. When searching a small area where the target is believed to be,it is not uncommon to send only one diver down, with another diver in the ready. Again may or may not be the divers choice. Who actually dives and who stays on the surface is also not the individual divers call. This decision is made for him or her by those in charge and those in charge may or may not even be divers. That’s just the way it is. So don’t judge the way you dive with the way public safety divers dive. It’s not even close to being the same thing.

……………Arduous

[John C. Ratliff]

Having now read most (and skimmed the rest) of these posts, I think that the most troubling aspect is that this group of PSD is using the diver rescue course as a course for recovery. Unless things have changed dramatically in the last 15 years (which very well may be possible) my recallection is that this course was to train divers in techniques to find and rescue his or her own buddy. It really did not aim toward the public safety diver, and the specialized needs they have and hazards they face.

I also have a few comments on posts from above. The main one I disagree with to some extent (depending upon the location) is that PSD are in a recovery mode only. Having trained diver rescue and recovery some years ago, and being up on emergency medicine, I must remind people that there is something called "cold water near drowning." Under this scenario, it is possible to resescitate and have either partial of full recovery of the victim for up to an hour after immersion, depending upon the coldness of the water (the colder the better) and the age of the individual (children and babies seem to do better, and adults worse, probably due to the rapidity of the cooling of the body once immersed). The important point is that there have now been documented full recoveries (I think it is plural now) of persons immersed for up to an hour under water! Therefore, if it is under an hour since the person went under, the SAR force cannot automatically assume its a body recovery when it happens in cold water (probably about 70 degrees is a cutoff, and remember that there are thermoclines, so surface water temps don't necessarily predict survivability).

I have in my library two booklets, published by the Illinois Scuba rescue & Recovery Instructors Unit for The Civil Defense by Jim Darby and George Beardsley in 1972 titled Advanced Diving Techniques for Scuba Rescue and Recovery and Scuba Rescue and Recovery Log Book. Hopefully, these have been updated since, and there may be other sources. The other book in my library (which shows when I was last really active in the area) is Wilderness Search and Rescue by Tim J. Setnicka, Appalachian Mountain Club, Boston, 1980. On page 441 they have a whole chapter on "Whitewater SAR." If others on this forum have other references, please feel free to share them, especially if they are more up-to-date than mine.

I have done a lot of swift water swimming, and feel that perhaps the rescue and recovery divers are too gear-heavy for swift water. Much work can be done without scuba, for instance, depending upon the river depth and location. Waiting for a massive recovery effort can erode the time element for cold water near drowning situations, and truely turn a possible rescue into a body recovery. I'll go into more detail later, but the more equipment one has on in current, the less effective he or she will be in moving in the water. This probably goes against the grain of many SAR persons, but it is based upon my fin swimming work in rivers, my own rescue work (9+ years, USAF PJ), and a lifetime of experience.

SeaRat