Need Help Setting Up BP/Wings

I am thinking about purchasing a DIR set-up which will likely involve a Halcyon BP and Wings.

Questions:

1. Is Halcyon still considered the leader in this area? I see a lot of people asking about FredT, which I am not familiar with. Which model of Halycon (or FredT) has the most going for it?

2. I'd like to dive doubles, but with a PST HP100 on one side, and a PST HP65 for redundancy. Will the difference in tank sizes screw-up my trim, or can that be worked out?

3. I'd love to get to the point of carrying no weights. Is this likely to be accomplished using the second tank (salt water use only)?

4. My primary goal in making this switch, other than safety, is the desire to achieve near perfect horizontal trim and buoyancy. Is this the best system for that?

5. I understand it takes a while to get set-up and adjusted to the diver. However, once that is done, how long should it take me to take the stuff out of my bag and get set-up on the boat. Specifically, I am concerned about the swith to doubles causing a big delay on the boat and having others divers baking in the sun while I am screwing around with a bunch of latches and cables. Can it be set-up quickly, even with doubles?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

1. Is Halcyon still considered the leader in this area? I see a lot of people asking about FredT, which I am not familiar with. Which model of Halycon (or FredT) has the most going for it?

A backplate is a backplate. Dive Rite, OMS, FredT, Halcyon, and Koplin all make great backplates. You decision comes down to two things, price and material/weight. If you are going to be diving twin steels, then a AL is you best choice. If you are going to be diving singles get a SS. Personally, I would get an OMS from Leisure Pro or a FredT because of price.

Now as far as wings go, nobody makes a better set of wings then Halcyon, IMO.

2. I'd like to dive doubles, but with a PST HP100 on one side, and a PST HP65 for redundancy. Will the difference in tank sizes screw-up my trim, or can that be worked out?

The only way you could really work that out is through trim weights. You will always be heavier on one side or the other. This setup just does not make sense to me. You are going to be diving an independent twin setup. That adds to your task loading, as you will need to monitor two tanks. You would be much better suited with a isolation manifolded set of same size twin tanks.

3. I'd love to get to the point of carrying no weights. Is this likely to be accomplished using the second tank (salt water use only)?

With twin steels, you should not need any weight at all. Some drysuit divers with very heavy insulation will use the extra weight, or swith over to a SS backplate. It also depends on the tanks you use. If you are using a set of PST95's, then you will probably not need to add any weight. However, if you are using a seet of Faber/OMS 108's/112's, then the weigt might need to be added.

4. My primary goal in making this switch, other than safety, is the desire to achieve near perfect horizontal trim and buoyancy. Is this the best system for that?

No, but it is close. The backplate wings setup is the best setup that you could use, but your tank setup is not. A set of identical size twin tanks is going to help you achieve that much easier.

5. I understand it takes a while to get set-up and adjusted to the diver. However, once that is done, how long should it take me to take the stuff out of my bag and get set-up on the boat. Specifically, I am concerned about the swith to doubles causing a big delay on the boat and having others divers baking in the sun while I am screwing around with a bunch of latches and cables. Can it be set-up quickly, even with doubles?

I can switch out double tanks in a matter of minutes. It is VERY easy to do. Simply unscrew two wing nuts, and then your regs. That is it.

Thanks for such a prompt and thorough reply!

Ok, scrap the idea of not having identical tanks for doubles. I was trying to save myself a little weight on the back, but if I would have to add trim weights to the lighter side, that would obviate the benefit. I guess what I'll do is dive twin 65s in shallow water (>70 fsw), and twin 100s in deeper water.

Another thing I was just thinking of, and you may have eluded to this with the point about the manifold, but if the tanks are completely redundant, than I am going to still have trim issues at depth because I will only be breathing out of one tank, which will be getting lighter during the dive.

The idea of total redundancy is two first stages, two seconds stages, etc. To be honest, I have not been around a manifold set-up, but if your high pressure hose bursts on one of those, it's a potential problem at depth (I know, that's what your buddy if for, but ignoring that for the moment).

Thanks again.

You might want to pick up a set of double AL 80's. Those are great for shallow ocean dives.

Anyway, on to your question about manifolds.

You have already found out one of the problems with independent doubles. Breathing down only one tank. To aleviate this, you have to do reg switching. Breathing from one side for about 300psi or so, and then switching to the other tank. To me this adds to the task loading. You are going to have to monitor two tanks. That adds another pressure gauge, which is another failure point.

Now, lets look at the situation you described. You have a high pressure hose fail, or any type of reg failure for that matter.

With indies, you will reach back and shut off that tank. Problem solved. Simple right? Well, you have now effectively eliminated half of your gas supply.

With iso's, if you blow a high pressure hose, you can reach back and shut off your valve. Problem solved, and you still have all of your backgas, with the exception of what leaked out as you were shutting down your valve. Some people claim this is the problem. What if you can not shut down quick enough. Well, that can be overcome with practice. You should practice valve drills a LOT. I do them on every dive during my deco/safety stops. With practice, you can shut down your valve very quick.

If you should happen to have a burst disk fail, or neck ring go then it is a little different.

With indies, you can not shut down anything, but you have your othe bottle so you are ok. However, what if the one that blows is on the tank with the higher pressure, and your good tank is about 300-500 psi lower because you have not switched tanks yet. Well, now you are shorter on gas.

If it happens with iso's, you simply reach back and isolate the tanks. Since you have been breathing from both tanks, the pressure is even in them.

Again, make sure you practice your valve drills while in the water. this is very important.

I have no experience with diving doubles or manifolds, but if I was to guess, is the "iso" a device to isolate one tank, in the event of a failure? If this is correct, then I am assuming you go down with two tanks, breath equally off of each tank, and if there is no failure then in theory they should have equal amounts of gas left at the end of the dive.

Furthermore, if you can isolate in this manner, than there would be no need for a pony because a failure of any tank, hose, or regulator would leave the other as a back-up???

With a manifold and/or iso set-up, does each tank have an independant first and second stage?

Just trying to get a clearer picture in my head as to how it works. Does anyone have a link to a site with diagrams?

I'd suggest the FIRST thing to do, after setting the doubles
up, is to dive them in a pool and make certain you can reach
the valves, etc.

Next a shallow shore dive.

Followed by a shallow boat dive.

Lastly a deeper boat dive.

When you DO use them on a boat, set them up before you
arrive at the dive site, put them on, carry them onto the boat
the EASY (well, not that easy) and then you won't have to
putter around setting them up ON the boat.

tampascott once bubbled...
I have no experience with diving doubles or manifolds, but if I was to guess, is the "iso" a device to isolate one tank, in the event of a failure? If this is correct, then I am assuming you go down with two tanks, breath equally off of each tank, and if there is no failure then in theory they should have equal amounts of gas left at the end of the dive.

Furthermore, if you can isolate in this manner, than there would be no need for a pony because a failure of any tank, hose, or regulator would leave the other as a back-up???

With a manifold and/or iso set-up, does each tank have an independant first and second stage?

Just trying to get a clearer picture in my head as to how it works. Does anyone have a link to a site with diagrams?

Click to expand...

Tampascott,
You are right on...check out some of the pictures on this website..they might help clear it up.

http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/equipmentimages.htm

This is a good one: http://www.wkpp.org/images/pina_equip/regs_config_top_view.jpg

I think you need to step back and start over on your wanting a DIR setup.

You should start by reading DIRF. many of the questions you have asked are covered in DIRF.

Steel tanks and a wet suit
steel doubles of diff sizes
HP steels
carrying no weight

the above items are not DIR when looking at your gear configuration. I am not a DIR trained diver but i know DIR is more than gear configuration. I also know that DIRF helped me out tremendously.

Buy the DIRF book and read it cover to cover. Its a great tool for you to get started in DIR. Then you will have the knowledge on what gear is right for your type of diving.

Good Luck to you

Andy
You guys were being helpful, but dont you think he was jumping the gun ?

trymixdiver once bubbled...
I think you need to step back and start over on your wanting a DIR setup.

You should start by reading DIRF. many of the questions you have asked are covered in DIRF.

Steel tanks and a wet suit
steel doubles of diff sizes
HP steels
carrying no weight

the above items are not DIR when looking at your gear configuration. I am not a DIR trained diver but i know DIR is more than gear configuration. I also know that DIRF helped me out tremendously.

Buy the DIRF book and read it cover to cover. Its a great tool for you to get started in DIR. Then you will have the knowledge on what gear is right for your type of diving.

Good Luck to you

Andy
You guys were being helpful, but dont you think he was jumping the gun ?

Click to expand...

Andy, I was just looking to knock some ideas around. I'm not interested in subscribing to the whole DIR philosophy and equipment config., just borrowing some of the tools, including the BP and doubles set-up. That DIRF looks like a good idea, so I'll check that out. Before I actually go down 120' in the Gulf with this stuff, I'll be well trained and educated on it.

Yes, the suggestions have been helpful.

tampascott once bubbled...


Andy, I was just looking to knock some ideas around. I'm not interested in subscribing to the whole DIR philosophy and equipment config., just borrowing some of the tools, including the BP and doubles set-up. That DIRF looks like a good idea, so I'll check that out. Before I actually go down 120' in the Gulf with this stuff, I'll be well trained and educated on it.

Yes, the suggestions have been helpful.

Click to expand...

One small step for Scott...

It's just a matter of time now.......