It's just a matter of trust...

[jhelmuth]

OK - I'm a newbie (haven't yet got the C-card) - but I will be doing my open water next week and will be countin the days).

My question is simple - how much do you trust the LDS manager when he is your instructor?

Example: My instructor (the LDS manager) is outstanding! He is very knowledgable and has the years and dives to back it up. I trust him a great deal - but I got the feeling that he may not be totally honest with me because he seemed to be contradicting many of this boards users who have used a BP and wing as a rec diver for the pure enjoyment of it. He's recommending that I buy the Seaquest "Balance" over the Halcyon MC with a pioneer wing. I have not pushed him to see if he will provide me with a tech unit from Halcyon - but I'd guess he could easliy do so if he wanted. He stocks quite a bit of Seaquest BC's - but he is NOT reccomending that I take one of those in stock, but to buy a new 2003 model with the nwest QR weight pockets. He admits that the wing is more efficent (and price is about the same) - but he claims that the performance difference is not significant enough and that I should still buy the SQ product because it is not a techie product. The only thing that bothers me are the number of very positive posts on this board saying what a great setup the BP and winmg are to the alternative typical weight integrated BC, and I want to DIR dive.

Is he correct in making this recomendation? Would this be the better way to go for a newbie like myself (I have no issues with my performance in the water - my weight (6lbs wet) and breathing are very good to excellent and am improving these all the time)?

Any comments, suggestions, challenges?

[O-ring]

Just curious because a lot of the shops I know will stick to selling you whatever they have in stock or can get easily. If your shop is not a dealer for any of the companies that make bp/wings, they may be influencing your decision to make a sale.

[trymixdiver]

The cost of a scuba class is minimal compared to the cost of gear. O ring is probably right. The LDS didnt get rich from your class cost, but it does stand to make money on your gear purchases. If the LDS doesnt sell the BP/ wing then he is most likely pointing you in the direction of the products he is selling.

All i can say is that if i could do it all over again, i wouldnt have wasted money on a jacket style BC from the start. Stick to your guns on what you want. Dont get it elsewhere uinless he doesnt want to accquire it for you.

Andy

Do your best not to burn any bridges whenever possible

[Uncle Pug]

..tell him you want the Halcyon 36# Pioneer wing, Halcyon SS plate, storage pack, harness, cambands, ect. and you want to buy it from him.

If he won't play order it from www.extreme-exposure.com

[DiveTub]

My first rig I bought Ex rental for $500 the lot.

Still have it and it is a great set-up my mates use when they are in town, as they dont get to dive that much out a home in the Aussie OutBack.

My advice dont spend $$$$ on gear when you first start out, get yourself a nice Ex Rental kit. Save your money and go diving with it for 12 months,see if it a sport you are going to stick with. Then when you know the type of diving you are doing and the direction you want to take your diving go spend the big bucks on the best damn gear you can afford for the diving you are planning on doing.

[jamespitt]

jhelmuth,
heed sydney-divers words. since u havent even finished your course, first check it out and see if u actually have a long-term interest in the sport. the euphoria may wear off, or in my case- never!
my point is: take your time when choosing gear. i am on 200 dives and have only recently DIY'ed a Backplate and wings.
u may find that DIR is not for you.
BP/wings/halcyon a DIR diver doth not make.
i reckon decide what kind of diving you wish to be doing in say 2 - 3 years. do your course and do some fun dives and then take stock. the balance could be just what u need... on the other hand the halcyon could be the answer to your dreams.
Jim of the sea

[Zept]

Uncle Pug advised...
..tell him you want the Halcyon 36# Pioneer wing, Halcyon SS plate, storage pack, harness, cambands, ect. and you want to buy it from him.

The SS plate weighs 6.02lb with straps.

jhelmeth is currently diving wet with 6lb of weight.

Are you going to recommend steel tanks as well?



jhelmeth, you'll get better advice if you tell people where you'll be diving (temperate or tropical), what you expect to wear (wetsuit thickness or drysuit type) and what type of diving you hope to do (rec, tech or a mixture). Also, have you asked your instructor why he prefers the Balance?

Zept

[The Hamburger]

jhelmuth,

I would suggest that you read the "buying equip in the Phillipines" Thread in the Asia section for some opinions on what instructors recomend.

Cheers

[ckharlan66]

Both rigs are great for rec. diving. Like other have said don't rush out and make a decision. Dive for awhile and see if you can try both out. See what you like better and decide what direction your diving is going to take. If you are going to be rec. forever then you can't go wrong either way but if you want to get more tech in the future the Balance won't get you there. I loved my Balance but my diving outgrew it.

Good luck.

Chad

[nickjb]

I'd put buying a BC somewhere near the bottom of the list of things to buy. If you can get a good deal on a second hand one or rent for a while then you will get a better idea of what you want.

[jhelmuth]

First of all - thank you all for your input. I do think the LDS manager (my instructor) can get the Halycon BC for me if he wants to (even though there are none on his displays). He had Halycon sales materials that he brought out durring our discussion on the merits of both. Overall, I got the sense that he has an aversion of selling technical equipment to newbie rec divers because he mentioned that he finds many instances of sport divers wnating technical looking gear because its cool - not necess. the right choice. He only knows me from class and he is also not too eager to sell me gear until I have tried it out and am more comfortable with my skills in the water (sounds like good advice inspite of my dying need to drop a couple of $K on new gear). My goal is to DoItRight the first time + maximize my bottom time by using quality performance gear that does not put me at undue risk, will minimize the effort, and help me improve my skills. I'm pretty certain that I can acheive these goals regardless of which choice I make in either BC (both are back-flotaion types).

Where I will spend my time diving:
>>> Warm Gulf and Carribean waters...
> Off the coast of St Pete FL (home) in the Gulf 10-12 dives per year
> Down in the FLA Keys 8-10 dives per year
> Nassau,Caymens,San Salvador (you get the idea?) 10 - 12 dives per year

My current classroom setup is:
> LP Steel 80 tank w/ MK25/S250 reg and Oceanic octo
> Seaquest Pro QD jacket BC
> TUSA fins/mask/snorkel (platina) - mine
> Oceanic console with computer
> 2mm Shortie - mine
> 6lbs lead centered (non-ditchable)

What I think I want:
> (will rent tanks) w/ MK25/S600 reg (DIN) and Sherwood octo
> Halycon MC Pioneer using 27-36# wing
- or -
> Seaquest Balance (37# lift) back floatation BC (not a jacket)
> TUSA fins/mask/snorkel (platina) - mine
> Uwatec Smart COM AI computer
> 2mm Shortie / 3/2mm jumper / polartech jumper
> lead weights to trim as required

The only disagreement (and that is probably a bit strongly put) my instructor and I have is with the BC (as stated earlier). I really don't know for sure which will be better unless I try them both out. He and another diver in the LDS dive these but only in technical dives (according to him). My point (analogy) is that a man may buy a Porche or BMW and only drive it to work - but that doesn't make it the wrong car for him (clearly he may not really use it for its full capabilities).

[Walter]

If your mind is made up to go DIR, you'll need a back plate and wings instead of a vest.

OTOH, your instructor is correct, you don't need to go DIR.

OTOH, going DIR or not is totally your choice.

I would decide on my gear configuration based on my thoughts about the reasons for each piece of gear. I would listen to everyone's opinions (here and your instructor) then I would evaluate everything and make up my own mind. Don't follow anyone blindly. Understand why you choose everything. DIR is one great choice, there are others.

[jhelmuth]

Am I daft?

I thought DIR stood for Do It Right.

Please clarify if this is not the case

[Walter]

I believe it stands for Doing It Right.

[Jarhead]

jhelmuth once bubbled...
Am I daft?

I thought DIR stood for Do It Right.

Please clarify if this is not the case

Between attempting to do things correctly

and

the philosophy published/taught by Global Underwater Explorers as "Doing It Right".

[jhelmuth]

OK. So I didn't misunderstand what DIR meant. I think I was not clear in my original post, because Walter (it seemed to me anyway) thought my instructor didn't encourage DIR diving. On the contrary. What is interesting is that DIR can't be a science because it is so induvidualistic in nature. Sure - there seem to be reasonable tennents that apply to both the general and specific needs - but in the end, it has a personal twist for the individual.

Agree?

[Walter]

You are confusing DIR (Doing It Right) with doing it right. DIR is a philosophy which includes a particular gear configuration. There are those who believe DIR is the only way to do it right. IMHO, they are mistaken. There are many ways of doing it right, DIR is merely one of them. Neither DIR or doing it right are science, it is opinion.

[MikeFerrara]

In my opinion as an instructor and an lds owner...being an instructor and a dealer for any of the big name equipment manufacturers is a direct conflict of interest. My advice talks divers out of more sales than into them. I am also going broke. My students sure can dive though!

I have rental bc's and rental bp/wings. Students who try the bp/wing never want to go back. The bp/wing makes my job easier. By easier I mean it takes less time and work to get the correctly trimmed and stable in the water.

Aside from equipment...If at the end of your class you do not find yourself hovering in a horizantal position without a change in depth anytime you stop kicking, suggest to your instructor that maybe the class isn't over. If your class leavs a trail of silt, ask the instructor for an explanation. Once you have this done buy whatever equipment makes this easier for you.

[Uncle Pug]

Walter is correct but it goes further than that... the D.I.R philosophy varies depending on where you find it:

WKPP - doing it right first coined to describe the standardized equipment and proceedures used by this group as the only acceptable way to accomplish their mission.

GUE - training agency that certifies technical and cave divers all over the world using principles closely modeled after WKPP DIR.

Internet - those who read about it on the internet.

But be that as it may....

No Zept I don't recommend diving wet with steel.... and I think you know that.

jhelmuth you could get an Aluminum plate and carry the additional weight as ditchable.... though you are not carrying ditchable now it might not be a bad idea.

Since you are warm water exclusively then the 27# wing should suffice... but the 36# will have a wider market if you decide to sell it later. But you won't because these rigs are excellent for recreational diving and you will like it.

NOW.... this is why I suggest you go with Halcyon to start with... resale on Halcyon stuff is very high and it is very easy to sell should you decide that you really want the Seaquest Balance later.

The opposite is not the case.

[tombiowami]

If you want to try the bp/wing you can buy them from Extreme Exposure and use it for 30 days, if no likee, send it back and you are only out the shipping fees. Details on the site.

There is an inherent confilct of interest in dive shops and training and gear, can you imagine buying a used car from your driving instructor, or going to a used car lot for driving instruction? Same deal.

The owner may be telling you what he honestly believes, I don't know, but the bp/wings makes a fine rec bc, hands down. The big deal is that if you ever want to pursue doubles or tech down the road, there is very little to change, you just add on some parts and you got it.

Tommy

[Zept]

Uncle Pug said...
No Zept I don't recommend diving wet with steel.... and I think you know that.

jhelmuth you could get an Aluminum plate and carry the additional weight as ditchable.... though you are not carrying ditchable now it might not be a bad idea.


Sure, I know that. But jhelmuth might not realise that what you said was not what you meant ;).

Zept

[jhelmuth]

Thank you all for your consideration and information. I thought you all may wish to know the status on what I have done.

First off, I've tried out the "Balance" BC, and it was terrific. Easy to use, very un-encumbering and moves through the water much easier than the jacket style "Pro QC" we've been training on. I ordered one from my instructor (to set things straight - he's the manager - not the owner). I don't have a way to "try out" the Halcyon with out making a real side-by-side comparison. I just don't have the experience (I think) to tell without doing this side-by-side. So - I kinda like the idea of doing a trial comparison in the LDS pool (any thoughts on that?). I'm pretty sure that I can get my instructor to let me try it (if he has a setup that will fit me).

Bye-the-way... I did the first part of our OW check-out dives today (Lake Denton in south-central FLA). Kooooollll! No matter what, this is really a great way to spend time (and money). Right now I'm very anxious to get to next weekend so I can finish the OW requirements (going out in the Gulf) and I may get to use some (maybe all) of the new gear I've bought (assuming I get time to test it out in the pool to be familiar with it and be sure I like it and can use it properly).:D

[Rich (UTAH)]

I have an older SQ Balance, with the old style velcro latching integrated weight pockets. I purchased it back in '98 and have enjoyed it very much. My buddies gave me a lot of crap about buying that instead of a more expensive Zeagle Ranger. It is very, very comfortable to dive with, even with no protection suit and I've used it for both California (cold for me) and tropical (warm) diving. However, before I purchased my BC, I was first counseled by my buddies (1 instructor and 3 dive masters) to get my own reg. and computer. They said to get a good one and take care of it. You can rent BC's, wet suits, tanks and weight belts, but you want to have your own Reg that you know, service and trust. Just a recommendation I will pass on.

Now, if I had it to do over again..... As much as I like my SQ Balance, (aside from the velcro integrated weight system) I would look more closely at one of the interchangeable BP/W systems. I was looking at the Dive Rite's trans pac earlier today in fact. When I dove in the bahamas, being in just a 3/2 mil wet suit, I didn't need much weight or as big a BC bladder as I had. When I dive in California, I am maxed out for places to put weights in my integrated system and wished I had a steel tank instead of an AL80 so I could offload 10 lbs or so.

Having your instructor / shop owner pushing a 5 year old "new" SQ Balance isn't a bad thing as long as he is giving you a whale of a deal. If he isn't, I wouldn't even consider it. Don't be shortsighted and get something that will get you by for now but inadequate in the future. :no

I don't dive nearly as often as most of the people that chat on this board, but I know my equipment really well and know how to set it up and trust that it will work.

Whatever you get, make sure that it is comfortable for the type of diving you want to do.

[sphawley]

well if you wanna be DIR and do GUE you will have to have backplate at least to even start GUE classes

[diveski01]

Too bad dive manufacturers don't have demo days at regional dive sites like they have for snow skis and snow boards. It would be great to test dive 2 or 3 different types of gear to know what you might actually prefer. Very few LDS's carry a variety of rental gear for customers to try before they buy. There are so many threads asking for opinions on gear. What suits other divers doesn't suit every diver. Kind of like travel. What I like may not be enough to make everyone else happy.

[TSandM]

I have a feeling none of our comments are going to matter to the OP, who posted this five years ago . . .

[SparticleBrane]

Do people ever read the dates on threads anymore?